I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that"

[MrRight]

OP - I feel for you.
Similar story here. will post details to compare.
red dress? $100 in the bank and bankruptcy looming. Jesus.

[Notwendy]

DB, I will share some of my observations of the result of this- indulging your wife's expensive demands even if it puts you in financial peril. I think some of this is a fear that if you didn't do this- if she didn't need you to do this, she might leave you. ( don't know if she would or not, but it is your fear of abandonment, or feeling inadequate that drives this).

The result of this is that indulging her - financially and by doing things for her-actually takes something away from her- her own pride in accomplishment and self sufficiency.

That said, a husband who earns a good living should not expect his wife to wear rags. But a wife of a man who earns a modest income doesn't get a closet full of designer clothing either.

My mother's idea of what she needs does seem similar to your wife. Affluence is normal to her. When she and my father first married, this was standard. But one can overspend at any income and so while my father didn't earn so much that we were wildly affluent, we could live quite comfortably, but it wasn't enough. This set up a sort of two tiered socioeconomic bracket in our home. We lived in a nice area, mom had all she wanted, but by high school I was alternating a couple of pairs of jeans for clothing and had one or two nice dresses. Mom had a closet full of shoes and clothes from the finest stores. There was money for her, but not for college.

My father wanted my mother to be comfortable and not stressed so he made sure her needs and wants were met. From child rearing, I have learned that this is one way to ruin a child's sense of accomplishment, pride, self esteem and keep then from knowing how to become independent. Yes, as parents we should provide what a child needs, but if we indulge their every want, rescue them from any frustration- like having to do homework , clean their rooms- we emotionally harm them.

Behind the person with BPD's persona is a very insecure person with a poor sense of self. While we can not fix this, too much indulgence can reinforce it. I recall learning to bake- I probably burned a few cookies, made some terrible ones, eventually learned to be a good cook. My mother would then make me do the baking which I did, but not knowing that the fact that my mother can not bake and didn't learn how increased her lack of competence. If she felt she couldn't do something- she made her kids or my father do it.

Once when my kids were little, she was visiting and I said- Mom- can you please make the kids a sandwich? This is the kind of thing that would trigger her but I knew she wouldn't do it in front of my kids. In addition, the request was sincere. I had my hands full with a toddler- and needed the help. Something about my mother's demeanor changed- she felt needed, she could do something to help, she kind of lit up for a moment. We kids didn't ask her for this- we took care of ourselves. We didn't need her, but at this moment, she was needed.

I used to watch my mother shop for really nice things. As teens we were into the hippy thing so all I wanted were jeans mostly. I once asked my Dad for a new dress and he snapped at me. I stopped asking. As a young adult, I needed a suit for a job interview. For the first time, I bought something my mother would wear- for me- all by myself with my own money and I recall the sense of pride I had. Then I realized that while she had a lot more of these things, she didn't have the sense of pride of earning them, but I did.

Until I began to work on my own co-dependent tendencies, I saw my father as a victim of my mother's demands and overspending. I see my father's intentions as a sincere effort to ease her distress. He truly had sympathy for her situation and he did all he knew to do. My mother's generation didn't work- I didn't expect that, but they did accomplish things in their home and elsewhere. I see my mother struggle with low self esteem and while having nice things might help temporarily- she doesn't have the pride of contributing.

I don't expect that you will insist your wife run out to get a job, or that you can force her to do something she doesn't want to do. But perhaps if you can see that indulging her brings some sense of short term happiness, it is actually taking something away from her. The same goes for your D. One day she will want expensive clothes, a car, and so on. You can just get them for her. Or you can set up a chore chart and an allowance and have her contribute something towards them. It doesn't even need to be money. When my oldest was able to drive- there was a car, but car privileges came with responsibilities- keep grades up, help run errands and so on. Its not the same relationship with your wife, but could you make her a partner in getting you two out of the hole. The money isn't just your problem. It's both your problems. If you own it, she gets to be victim. If you blame her, you get to be victim. Not a good plan. Honey, we are broke, can we work together to fix it? And if she leaves, well then if she's only there for the money, then do you want that?

[MrRight]

Hello Daddybear77.

Your wife and mine share many behaviour patterns.

She is not into expensive jewellery, clothes, like your wife. But she does insist that our S14 has absolutely everything she thinks he needs for his education , wellbeing etc. He has had top level private tuition etc - academic and musical - when we clearly could not afford it. Things have settled now - he gave up music - and I am stuck with debts that will take years to clear. As a result my income is enough to service the debt and cover our essentials - but barely more than that - so we do fall out when she is planning days out during non term times. I make a fuss, my face goes dark when she is exploring which attraction we are going to visit on day trips (you know a family day out costs £100+ these days).

I also offer massage for BPDers that kick and toss and turn violently. I also, freeze for however long is neceesary for her to fall asleep. She's a light sleeper - one move from me and she's awake cursing me for waking her up! The hotel option another poster suggested would be ok if you did not have a child - but I expect you would not want to go and get some quality sleep in a motel while your wife is raging at home and upsetting your D3. I know just how you feel - me too.

You have not responded to some posters saying your wife is using the wellbeing of your D3 to control you. If your social care  services knew anything about this they would most likely take her away from what is no doubt an abusive envirnonment. I have some experience with UK social services and they certainly consider ranting and raving in front of a child to be abuse. Of course I dont know how the equivalent USA services operate. In this sense - perhaps you should think about reporting your wife to the social care people and applying for custody? Make a recording or two - that will be enough. You are bankrupt anyway - so what is there to lose?

If you dont mind me asking - do you get anything positive out of your relationship? Sex life? Just wondering what it is you want to hold on to. And how can you afford to have therapy with just $100 left in the bank and bankruptcy etc? These professional listeners charge big bucks!

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
Hoping to hear an update from you soon on how things are going.  In the meantime, I'd like to add some thoughts/advice to what NotWendy has provided:

You mentioned that your wife is working towards a (not financially beneficial) degree.  Where does funding that education fall on your priorities list?  Would money saved by forgoing a semester of classes pay for the red dress that she wants?  Is that a compromise you are willing to make?

Frame of reference to hopefully give you some context with the expectations of a non (though probably not "normal" woman.  The red dress I bought was a clearance dress and cost me $7.49 with tax.  Nope.  Not a misplacement in the decimal point.  Seven dollars and forty-nine cents.  You can also put me down as a woman who is earning in the $125-250K range (I have a commissioned job, as it sounds like you do) but spends an average of $20.00 per month on cosmetics.  I'm in the process of putting together financial numbers for my legal separation, so I have them handy.  I am allocating $390/month for my own personal care categories - clothing, hair, cosmetics/salon treatments, and 2 massage sessions a month.  There are some splurge items in there that would quickly go away if I were endangering the $2100/month that I allocate for private school and college tuition for my boys, but as my friends remind me, a woman who earns as much as I do should no feel as guilty as I do about some of those splurge items.  Granted, I grew up in a household of 5 that was supported on an income under $40K, sometimes well under $40K, so my definition of "luxury items" is probably vastly different than your wife's.  So I don't advocate mentioning any of this to your wife, but I thought it might help your own sanity to know that your wife's definition of "providing for" her is biased.  

I've pondered a bit about whether it might be possible to either establish your wife in the role of financial partner or financial dependent (child) in your mind and actions and make that a touch-point when the demands start up.  A financial partner would be going to the bankruptcy meetings (which I have no doubt inspire stress and a measure of humiliation) with you and would be making decisions like "Are we willing to ask our children to pay for their own education in the years to come so that we can pay for your education now?"  A financial dependent would have no say in how money was budgeted and be treated like a child screaming for a toy at the cash register when demanding something that was outside the budget.  It seems like your wife is wanting the say granted a partner without the accompanying responsibility and you are (somewhat) unwilling to treat her with the firmness that you would treat a dependent with.  It's the best of both worlds for her, and the worst for you.

Now for the topic that I think would be hardest for me to cope with - "You should be earning more".  Here is where I would suggest exercising radical acceptance for yourself.  I wish you could expect your wife to do so, but I can't think of any way to make this one go away.  You are earning what you can.  Are there jobs out there that have higher earning potential?  Yes.  Are you qualified for them?  Probably.  Would you be able to acquire and maintain those forms of employment?  Probably not, as things stand today.  You are doing the best you can.  You may be capable of better, should circumstances change.  You also may not be able to maintain this level of functioning, should circumstances change.  Something you may want to do is examine what circumstances would need to change for you to feel comfortable pursuing a higher paying job.  This is an exercise FOR YOU, not something you need to share with your wife.  You can then look at the things that would need to change and see if any of them are within your control or might be in the future.  For example - I could pursue a higher paying job if it did not require relocation.  There are currently jobs with higher earning potential in different geographies.  If a similar job became available in my area (out of my control) I could pursue it.  In 4 years my son will be graduating from high school and I will no longer be tied to this geography.  I can prepare myself to be ready to pursue those positions in 4 years.  Once you have gone through this exercise, you can share as much or as little of it with your wife as you want.  If there are areas that are within her control that are impacting your decision ("I would need x time or y money that are currently allocated to you to get the skills I need to pursue the higher paying job" you might have a topic for conversation (to be brought up ANY time other than immediately after she has made the "You could be making more money" statement).  

Ultimately, I think your battle (as well as mine) is against falling into the victim mentality.  Some things are outside our control.  Those we strive to accept.  Many things are within our control.  Those we strive to identify and manage.  If I get hung up on how much it sucks to be faced with the things outside my control, I waste energy.  If I choose not to look for and manage the things that are within my control, I give others that control.  Not to say that a good venting of "This sucks" is a COMPLETE waste of energy.    Or that I always have the energy to manage all the things that are within my control.  That's when taking the time - like you have with your budget - to prioritize the areas of your life that remain relatively managed is one of the best energy investments you can do.  Then when you don't have the energy to decide between spending your energy on a parenting issue vs a house maintenance issue you don't have to.  You decided that when you DID have energy and you now have guidance on which to walk away from and which to expend your energy on.

I hope these musings hold some value for you.

BG

[DaddyBear77]

Where do I even start? These are all such great questions and really considerate feedback, I am overwhelmed. Thank you.

So where do things stand, lets start there. Things are building to a crescendo. Quickly. My wife tells me that the anxiety, that I'm causing, is so overwhelming she would rather end it. Don't know if she means the marriage or her life or what, but there really have been no suicidal ideations in the past 3 years or so, save a couple brief moments, so if she DOES mean "her life" I know she's not serious. But I'm very carefully monitoring that. Anyway, she keeps saying that she "knows" I'm going to drop a big bombshell on her, soon. For example, she says, she's pretty sure I'm going to announce at the end of the summer that I'm filing for divorce. She KNOWS I'm going to do something big like take away the promise to buy her a diamond ring, or refuse to take her on a tropical vacation to renew our vows in the fall.

Ok, so, with those anxiety-fueled inputs as a backdrop, I am desperately trying to find ways to manage all this. My favorite way to manage it is to sincerely look her in the eye and tell her "I promise I will do all these things for you. Please. Be calm. Don't worry. I will take care of this. I will handle this. I will save you. I will rescue you."

And I come back here, and I re-read this thread over and over again. And finally, I'm realizing that what I'm doing is exactly what Notwendy said in an earlier post - I am restricting my entire life to the mission of managing my wife's anxiety.

I've become Human Xanax.

This makes things so much worse in the end, because, I leave myself very limited, very bad options. The option I pick most often is, borrow money, get the things, and also just as big as the money is the fact that I now allow myself to be monitored by her 24/7. I share my GPS location through our iPhone, and I carry a voice recorder with me everywhere I go to "catch" myself making a phone call or meeting up with my family of origin. These are actual things I do now. That's what I mean by a very bad option.

My other option, now that I've promised these things, done these things, continue to do these things, is to somehow back OUT of doing these things. It would have been SO much better if I had never done this in the first place. But this is what I've been doing with her LITERALLY since the first month of our relationship. Anyway, that doesn't matter now. I can't go back and change what I did and didn't do 18 years ago. I just wish there was a way to back out now that doesn't immediately trigger a massive anxiety / rage reaction. I don't think that's possible.

And so I keep myself stuck. Too afraid to trigger her, to broke to keep up with the demands.

BeagleGirl, your thoughts on this are so spot on with all the things I've considered. My salary is commissioned, as you guessed, and is very much in line with your range. I have the ability to gradually increase my salary, but in the years I've been with my wife, I've focused almost 100% of my energies on managing her anxieties and helping her through BPD-related issues. I am sure if I reallocated that energy, I'd be moving up like crazy - maybe not to the levels my wife would expect, but certainly on an upward trend. I'm fortunate enough to be in a very good geographic location, but even so, the focus would need to shift dramatically away from the relationship and that's not something I've been able (or willing?) to do.

We can talk all day and all night about my wife's expectations, and whether they're in line with the area and other moms. In some ways they are. In many ways they are not. I realized a few weeks ago that I hadn't been able to allocate money for her to get new clothes since I took out the two killer loans a year and a half ago, so I immediately gave her $1000. Last week I gave her another $1000 for personal care items. Over the past 6 months I've allocated between $1000 and $1500 a month for personal care items. I'm trying to really be fair, but even as I write this I realize this isn't "fair," its "enabling" and also "foolishly irresponsible". But my wife does not want for things. And another thing here that I really don't know the FACTS about is what exactly my wife DID experience growing up. She SAYS that her mom got all these fancy items of jewelry and nice clothes, etc, etc. But I also know that her father had gotten into legal trouble at the accounting firm he worked for. And I also know that when her parents divorced and she was 13, it wasn't long after that her mom had to file for her OWN bankruptcy. So I suspect that much of her expectations are manufactured or at best, exaggerated.

And yes, lets talk a little about using D3 to control me. The dynamic isn't so cut and dried here. What really seems to happen is that my wife will get into her own anxiety / rage and then say "What? I can't handle my OWN situation, which you put me in, and you expect me to handle our D3?" The net result comes from MY interpretation / choices on how to handle things. I do constant calculations along the lines of "Ok, so, if I stay and manage my wife, and then wife calms down in a few minutes, will daughter wake up or sleep through it? What if I try and enforce a boundary here? Will my wife still calm down or will she escalate? And then if she does escalate, will my daughter be better off with me leaving her until my wife responds, or would it be better if I responded?" So is this something that my wife does "on purpose?" - probably not. But is it something she has always needed to take responsibility for and I've enabled her to NOT take responsibility for these past 4 years? Absolutely.

I am deeply saddened and anxious about what my D3 is experiencing and witnessing. I don't know how all this will affect her in the long run. I DO know that she's an incredibly anxious kid, which from everything I read, that's a typical trait of kids who grow up in homes with constant unresolved issues. In the end, I'm almost positive that my sadness, anxiety, and guilt about leaving my daughter exposed to this will be the thing that finally drives me out the door. But then I start thinking about custody and divorce scenarios and that scares me even more in many ways. I've posted a few of these threads on the Parenting and Family Law boards. You can read stuff there about these thoughts. It's a mess. It's complicated. But yeah, D3 is a huge part of all of this.

And the big question - what do I get out of this? Well, it's not sex - haven't done that in a year and a half, and even then, it was all take and very little give, so I wouldn't say it was fabulous. It's not support - this is a very one way street. No, the only true answers I can give to "what do I get out of this" is (a) a sense of accomplishment, sort of, at being able to make the impossible (sort of) happen, and also (b) I get to be here every night when D3 goes to sleep and I get to be here every morning when D3 wakes up. That's selfish. It's not looking at the big picture and it's not what is really best for D3. But it's an honest assessment of what I get out of it.

Over the next 48 hours I am being asked to deliver impossible things: I am supposed to come up with a way to give my wife logs of EVERYthing I do online, all the time. I am supposed to find ways to refinance our home and take her off the mortgage note, so she's not financially responsible for the home. I am supposed to find ways to earn an extra $60,000 this summer to pay for things she wants. And I'm supposed to come up with $400 to buy her a red dress this week before they sell out in the UK.

So, yeah, I think the crescendo is about to explode into a huge bang. I'm sure I'll make it through. I'll let everyone know how it goes. Thank you so much for all the support.

[Notwendy]

DB- I think you said it correctly- you are human Xanax, but with a high price tag.

How do you get out of this? Well the honest truth is that THINGS CHANGE and or PRIORITIES CHANGE. We did take some great vacations. Now, we are saving for college. We make choices: a fabulous tropical vacation or a college degree for the kids. The only choice I want is the college.

In my father's situation, as newlyweds, they had disposable income. As time went on, the family grew, job situations change and while there was enough to meet our basic needs, there was less disposable income. Circumstanced changed, my mother's expectations did not.

It isn't your job to be her Xanax. The promise to take care of her and give her what she wants all the time isn't a promise you can keep.

One way I know to get out of this is to be honest and face the consequences. Honey, I know that I promised all these things for you but I  can not afford them. If I could, I would do it. I said I would because I wanted to do it, but I don't have the money. I am sorry. 

The other is natural consequences. If you go broke, then the bank will come for your house, and more. She will see the result herself.

As to her threats, yes, take them seriously, but if you feel you need to buy her things to avoid her harming herself, then you are still caretaking and controlling her emotions. The alternative is - if she does make a threat, to realize this requires professional help- call 911. This kind of thing requires medical help.


 


 

[Grey Kitty]

Anyway, she keeps saying that she "knows" I'm going to drop a big bombshell on her, soon. For example, she says, she's pretty sure I'm going to announce at the end of the summer that I'm filing for divorce. She KNOWS I'm going to do something big like take away the promise to buy her a diamond ring, or refuse to take her on a tropical vacation to renew our vows in the fall.

Uhm, she's right. I've been reading what you've said here for months.

You are going to file for bankruptcy. You won't be able to afford the new diamond ring, or the incredibly expensive vacation she's demanding. The money won't be there. And you have 'capitulated' and promised to do these things.

Well, she's right except the divorce part--you don't HAVE to do that, and I don't remember you saying you are planning to do so. While that fear of hers is real, the actual risk of it is (relatively) low.

My wife tells me that the anxiety, that I'm causing, is so overwhelming she would rather end it.

You can and should take this seriously as a risk... .and like notwendy suggested, if the risk seems real, get professionals involved (If not calling 911, call a suicide hotline).

It also can be a threat to manipulate you (like thousands of other ones she uses.)

The only action you should take based on this would be something to get her help and save her from suicide--you aren't going to 'fix' anything if in response to this anxiety or threat you offer to buy her something, stop talking to your parents, etc.

[Notwendy]

fact that I now allow myself to be monitored by her 24/7. I share my GPS location through our iPhone, and I carry a voice recorder with me everywhere I go to "catch" myself making a phone call or meeting up with my family of origin. These are actual things I do now. That's what I mean by a very bad option.


 I don't know what you are getting out of this, but there must be something or you would not go along with this.

It's a tough situation to face consequences like this for setting boundaries and standing up for yourself- but to not do it creates problems too. I guess it is a choice one has to make.

It's not an easy situation. I think one thing you do get out of what you are doing is that it is predictable. Yes, you go into debt but you know how to placate the situation. To not do this- I think you can imagine what might happen, but it is an unknown. Doing what is familiar does bring a sense of comfort.

[DaddyBear77]

Uhm, she's right. I've been reading what you've said here for months.

Yes, I know she's right. That's how wrapped up I am in this "Human Xanax" mission. I just tell her ":)on't you worry about it babe, I'm going to try like crazy to clear all this mess up and deliver that ring and everything's going to be all right" and I repeat that so many times that I even start to think it's something I could do. I feel dizzy from all this. And I feel completely stuck and backed into a corner.

You can and should take this seriously as a risk
... .
It also can be a threat to manipulate you (like thousands of other ones she uses.)

The only action you should take based on this would be something to get her help and save her from suicide

Agreed. There have been 3 times when she was serious. I got her help each time. She hated me for it. Oh well.

[Grey Kitty]

There have been 3 times when she was serious. I got her help each time. She hated me for it. Oh well.

   

Accepting that she will hate you for things that you do. Even when it is something she needs. Even when it is the best thing you can do for her (and you).

If you act like "Human Xanax" she will love you on the upside, but there is always a crash, and she will hate you on the downside. (And the cycle will never end!)

If you stop acting that way, she will still hate you some of the time--when you stand up to her, when you challenge her.

But what happens if you are consistent with your boundaries? She goes cold turkey off "Human Xanax". Yes, it is ugly at first. (aka an extinction burst.) And after that passes, she will find other ways of coping with her emotions, her anxiety.

There's a chance--a good one that she will find healthier coping methods than the way she's been using you. And your marriage will improve a lot if she chooses something better. (Fortunately for you, there are few worse coping mechanisms for her to choose from!)

As long as she believes (in her heart, subconsciously most likely... .) that her "Human Xanax" will be there for her tomorrow, or better yet, at 3am tonight, nothing will change.

[BeagleGirl]

                 
DaddyBear,
You can do this.  I have watched you struggle for the past several weeks, and I feel like you are at that tipping point. 

First of all, being there to tuck D3 in every night and waking up in the same home with her can be enough to get through the hard times, but I don't know that it will carry you through 15-20 more years without leaving some deep scars on both you and D3.

Imagination exercise - If you were filing for emotional/spiritual/relationship bankruptcy as well as financial bankruptcy, what would you do with the "clean slate"?  For the next 7 years, while others watch you to see if you are a worthwhile "risk" to give emotional/spiritual/relationship resources to, what do you want them to see? 

Next exercise - What kind of husband do you want to be for your wife and what kind of father do you want to be for your daughter?  What kind of man do you want to be remembered as?

Then comes the hard part - taking things from imagination/wishes/desires to reality.  How much more meaningful would it be if you renewed your vows in a modest or even private ceremony but those vows were to be the man you want to be rather than an elaborate celebration of remaining the man you have become? 

What day would you like your "clean slate" to start on?

I'm reminded of my "clean slate" day 3 years ago.  I had walked so far from my vows to my husband, my children and God that I was an anxiety riddled adulteress.  I knew that I would either continue to walk down that path and hurt everyone I "loved", or repent and do whatever it took to repair and renew.  I lined up support for my husband, who I knew would be crushed.  I literally had people waiting outside our house to comfort him after I confessed.  I won't lie, the first days/weeks were absolute hell for all involved, but I gave us the ONLY chance we had for a real marriage.  Even as things stand now, with our separation and all the uncertainty about our future, I know that I am being/becoming the woman that I promised to be on our wedding day and again when I returned to our marriage after my affair.  If I gave him what he is asking of me now I would be failing not only myself, but him.

What would it look like if you could start fresh?  Discard the things that are worthless or harmful (like promises you can't/shouldn't keep) and offer something real and lasting in their place?

BeagleGirl

[MrRight]

DB - a woman who is hankering for a red dress, personal care items etc - does not sound to me like she's contemplating suicide.

Must be a controlling strategy - if you dont do x I will do Y.

She has tried self harm before? Probably an attempt at control - if she does something just short of suicide it will help convince you she is serious. hence control over you when she threatens again.

[DaddyBear77]

MrRight, I think it's a huge mistake to underestimate suicidal and self harm impulses. As much as we think we see when we look at our pwBPD, there's an infinite well of emotional upheaval and distress inside that rages whether we know it or not.

If nothing else, my wife occasionally decides to stop eating (and trust me, that's the least of it). Is it a "hunger strike" to get me to pay attention? Or is it a small bubbly eruption from the volcano inside her soul? Why not both?

[MrRight]

MrRight, I think it's a huge mistake to underestimate suicidal and self harm impulses. As much as we think we see when we look at our pwBPD, there's an infinite well of emotional upheaval and distress inside that rages whether we know it or not.

If nothing else, my wife occasionally decides to stop eating (and trust me, that's the least of it). Is it a "hunger strike" to get me to pay attention? Or is it a small bubbly eruption from the volcano inside her soul? Why not both?

Yes agreed. and to be honest - I thought giving my wife a child would prevent her from ever carrying out a suicide threat - and looking back I think that was a prime reason for me wanting to have a child - that - and I thought a child would free me from her to an extent.
I think you analyse and think more about your wife's inner state and behaviour than I do. But then my aim is not to understand my wife - rather to survive her. Still - it would trouble me if she killed herself either now or in the future - despite all the years of suffering on my part.

[DaddyBear77]

You can do this.  I have watched you struggle for the past several weeks, and I feel like you are at that tipping point. 

Thank you BeagleGirl

First of all, being there to tuck D3 in every night and waking up in the same home with her can be enough to get through the hard times, but I don't know that it will carry you through 15-20 more years without leaving some deep scars on both you and D3.

I agree. Deep scars are really what's happening

Imagination exercise - If you were filing for emotional/spiritual/relationship bankruptcy as well as financial bankruptcy, what would you do with the "clean slate"?  For the next 7 years, while others watch you to see if you are a worthwhile "risk" to give emotional/spiritual/relationship resources to, what do you want them to see?

I'd want them to see someone strong, able to make his own decisions, honestly, independently. Someone who has an emotional base to stand on, made up entirely of things inside of me. Someone who is able to give, but also able to take and restock and refuel as needed.

Next exercise - What kind of husband do you want to be for your wife and what kind of father do you want to be for your daughter?  What kind of man do you want to be remembered as?

"Honey, we need to get the landscaping taken care of"
"No problem. Go ahead and schedule them for next week"
"Great! Thank you!"

":)addy, there's this awesome STEM camp this summer and all my friends will be there can I go can I go can I go?"
"Of course sweetheart! Where do we sign you up?"

He was a loving, generous man who cared very much about his family. He gave what he could and was always there when someone needed him. He knew how to take care of himself and others and we are really glad to have known him.

What day would you like your "clean slate" to start on?

Today would be good.

I'm reminded of my "clean slate" day 3 years ago.

I see what you're saying  and it's inspiring. Thank you.

[GaGrl]

DB, there is a leadership style that fits many circumstances in which strong leadership is needed... .work, military, family... .called The Servant Leader. My DH was military and is amazing in his application of servant leadership. In his first family (with the uBPD/NPD then-wife), combined with the fact that he expresses love via acts of service and gifts, he was quite frankly taken advantage of by the ex, but she also knew when he kicked into family leadership in a way that allowed little to no argument. Issues that were arguments had consequences - for example, she refused twice to go to a new posting with him, and the consequence was that she became responsible for much more than usual while he lived elsewhere.

All that to say, you may want to read The Servant Leader - it could provide some ideas and validation for when and why you do say No.

[Grey Kitty]

Next exercise - What kind of husband do you want to be for your wife and what kind of father do you want to be for your daughter?  What kind of man do you want to be remembered as?

DB, your answer there was good.

He was a loving, generous man who cared very much about his family. He gave what he could and was always there when someone needed him.

But there's a disconnect around this.

Your wife doesn't see you as generous, reliable, and providing what she needs. (And she will tell you this to great length! Often!)

Assume your wife will continue to feel entitled to expensive things which don't fit in the budget and still try to blame you for it.

What kind of husband do you want to be when confronted with this conflict?

Do you believe you are doing your best to care for your family? If not, what would improve it?

[Notwendy]

The conversation with your D about the STEM program may not be that, if there are financial issues. Also consider that your D is cute and compliant with her mother at 3. By the time she is old enough to attend a STEM program, she will be a teen with a mind of her own. Considering how your wife wishes to control your wherabouts, and your interactions with your FOO, she may also wish to control your relationship with your D if she feels threatened by your D's independence.

So your D may want to attend the STEM program, but could you afford it? Could you pay for this without an argument with your wife, and what will you do to insure that when your D is old enough to want to attend such types of educational programs, you are able to ( and have the freedom to) pay for them.

[formflier]

Can you put off filing for bankruptcy?  For a couple weeks at least.

Doing a BK or any process that won't cure the issue... .doesn't seem wise.

Note:  In my family... I control all the money that shows up in my name.  My wife controls money she makes.

Joint money (from investments) goes to joint accounts.

Situation is much better... .with these changes. 

Can you describe what is leading you to BK.  Is it one particular issue or account?

FF

[formflier]

All that to say, you may want to read The Servant Leader - it could provide some ideas and validation for when and why you do say No.

I'm not familiar with this book... .but I'm retired military.   My guess is the principles are ones I am familiar with.

Leadership is different than popularity.  It can be lonely.  It is important for you to think not of yourself... .but of "the organization" (in this case your family).  Your goal is to lead others to support the organization... .vice themselves.

You can see where pwBPD would have a hard time with that.

FF

[GaGrl]

I'm not familiar with this book... .but I'm retired military.   My guess is the principles are ones I am familiar with.

Leadership is different than popularity.  It can be lonely.  It is important for you to think not of yourself... .but of "the organization" (in this case your family).  Your goal is to lead others to support the organization... .vice themselves.

You can see where pwBPD would have a hard time with that.

FF

Exactly. There is also the element of developing everyone to their optimal potential, which relates to the family also.

[formflier]

Exactly. There is also the element of developing everyone to their optimal potential, which relates to the family also.

Yep... .don't get me started on leadership... .I'll go on forever... . 

Ok... .I'm going to take a page out of the pwBPD playbook and blame Gagrl for making me hijack this thread... .

My wife often "accuses" me of "being military" to her and ordering her around... .like I did all my Sailors.  The funny thing is... .I rarely... .rarely ordered things to happen.

Each time I had to intervene, I felt it a reflection of my leadership that I was not able to guide my Sailors to a point where they "owned" the issue and carried out the "commanders intent".

A typical "order". 

"Petty Officer Awesome Mechanic... .how is the project going?"

PO "Pretty good sir!  I think it's going to look a bit different than we discussed in the meeting.  I ran into some issues."

"Is it still going to accomplish xyz?"

PO "Yes sir... .you can count on it... "

"Good... let me know if you need my support solving anything... .looking forward to trying xyz out"

I miss those days... .

Now... .my feelings about intervening didn't keep me from doing that, they were simply an indication of a place where I needed to improve... .going forward.

She rarely saw me in action and often would misinterpret stories that I would share with her about what I actually did... .very frustrating and saddening.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

So I started saying "No" last night - a lot happened.

This thread is getting really long so I started a new thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=310447.0