Deception was used to take a trip to see her sister

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It's harder (perhaps) to twist around that this is ok or that is ok (justification)... .when something is flat out forbidden.

The use of that word... .which P was very specific about... .is intended to erase all doubt.

My wife very well may choose to directly... .unequivocally disobey.

My wife very well may choose to deliberately deceive again.

All of those actions have natural consequences that flow from them.

Essentially... .my wife is acting like a teenager trying to sneak around and do things with her sister, very much like they did in high school.  Except now she is in her 40s and has adult responsibilities.

I can respect her choice to behave like a petulant teenager and communicate to her in that manner

or

I can respect her choice to behave in a more adult fashion and communicate to her in that manner.

In all likelihood we'll have the conversation in the next hour or so.  Life has otherwise been crazy here for last couple days... .no real chance to have this conversation without one or both of us being "HALT"... .(thanks Notwendy)... .

This is important conversation... so I want to give it the best chance possible to be "heard".

FF

[formflier]

It's harder (perhaps) to twist around that this is ok or that is ok (justification)... .when something is flat out forbidden.

The use of that word... .which P was very specific about... .is intended to erase all doubt.

My wife very well may choose to directly... .unequivocally disobey.

My wife very well may choose to deliberately deceive again.

All of those actions have natural consequences that flow from them.

Essentially... .my wife is acting like a teenager trying to sneak around and do things with her sister, very much like they did in high school.  Except now she is in her 40s and has adult responsibilities.

I can respect her choice to behave like a petulant teenager and communicate to her in that manner

or

I can respect her choice to behave in a more adult fashion and communicate to her in that manner.

In all likelihood we'll have the conversation in the next hour or so.  Life has otherwise been crazy here for last couple days... .no real chance to have this conversation without one or both of us being "HALT"... .(thanks Notwendy)... .

This is important conversation... so I want to give it the best chance possible to be "heard".

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I get the idea of letting your wife's actions have natural consequences.

I get the idea of enforcing boundaries to protect yourself and your children from your wife's bad behavior.

The way I see either, those things involve taking specific actions on your part, and I'm really confused on what this is:

I can respect her choice to behave like a petulant teenager and communicate to her in that manner

or

I can respect her choice to behave in a more adult fashion and communicate to her in that manner.

This seems full of not very well hidden judgements, and nothing in it is concrete enough in it for me to be able to look at a specific conversation you have with your wife and objectively say whether either of you lived up to any part of it!

Can you try again, and say what specific things you plan on doing to protect yourself and your children if she takes specific disobedient or deceptive actions regarding her sneaky snake sister?

[GaGrl]

Is there a way to forbid actions involving your children without forbidding her actions?  That is, "I forbid the children from spending time with the juvenile-delinquent-cousin-who-endangers-them" versus "I forbid you from visiting your sister."

[formflier]

There is a religious component to this.

She wants to be and says she is this upstanding "obedient" Christian woman

In our belief system we are both supposed to "protect" our marriage, but I have primary responsibility for that... and for "leading" my wife in spiritual matters.

It is really with that in mind that P and I designed this.  We are essentially forcing a choice...

The children issue is a separate thing.

Right now focus on our relationship and her deception with me. 

Kids will be addressed... one thing at a time.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

There is a religious component to this.

She wants to be and says she is this upstanding "obedient" Christian woman

I don't support that view of Christianity. FF, I believe you've stated that you don't either; please clarify:

Does your faith/belief as a Christian tell you that you should help/make her be an "obedient" Christian woman or not?

If YES, you have very good reason to address this, and make sure she does it properly.

As I said, I believe your answer was NO, or at least not as strongly as others (like your wife) state it.

And if it isn't an important part of your faith, just let it go. Let her claim she wants this, and let her act in ways that don't live up to it. Don't point out the inconsistency. Don't make an issue of her lack of proper obedience. You've often said you pick your battles. DON'T PICK THIS ONE!

Hypocrisy is frustrating and natural to target... .but doing so seldom has good results!

My suggestion would be instead, address the issues that really do matter to you first, remembering that this is a secondary issue, and not even really your issue!

It also is a tool you can use--when it works--If bringing up this issue of obedience will help you resolve a high priority issue, GREAT! OTOH, if bringing it up makes things worse, don't do that again!

[formflier]

I'll write more detail later... .but... .my job as a leader is to communicate clearly... .not so much to "force" or "enforce".

There is a communications piece to all of this.

FF

[flourdust]

Is there some kind of positive change that's supposed to come out of all this plotting and scheming and demanding obedience? I'm not seeing it.

[HopefulDad]

I'll write more detail later... .but... .my job as a leader is to communicate clearly... .not so much to "force" or "enforce".

There is a communications piece to all of this.

FF

I'm struggling to understand this.  Leaders have followers.  If your wife isn't following, then how are you a leader?  Making rules like forbidding her to talk to her sister about your marriage, and then letting her choose whether or not to follow those rules doesn't come across as leadership.  If this is how biblical marriage is supposed to work, it seems to lean heavily on good faith adherence by both parties.  You know your wife has issues with acting in good faith, so how can you expect a biblical marriage?

Now you've mentioned natural consequences to her not following.  What would those be?  Because if there are consequences to her not following the rules, then I can see where the leadership part comes in.

Is there a point where the natural consequences simply become, "We're done."?  I would think that's the ultimate natural consequence for all marriages that simply cannot get on the same page, biblical or not.

[formflier]

Leaders don't necessarily "let" people do other things that they don't lead them to do.  The followers my decide to do something else, many times there will be a natural and/or logical consequence from that.

If there are enough parts of a marriage that "aren't there"... .then the natural and logical consequence is that there is no more marriage.  I think we are in agreement there.


Anyway... .of course there was a bit of a twist and turn to this.

We had the conversation.  Didn't get to the part about the sister... .so... .as of now... .I've not gotten to the part of forbidding anything.

Honestly... .I pressed the pause button on the conversation... .which was fairly respectful... .because my jaw had hit the floor... .and then I tripped over it... .still looking for some teeth... .

She agrees we had an agreement... .she agrees she decided "on the spur of the moment" to go to TN.  She agrees she had to call lots of people to set that up. 

She believes I should be happy for her.

She see's no pattern of "betrayal of trust" or breaking of agreements... .although I didn't go off on the rabbit trail of how many or other details.

The basic thing is... .you aren't here... I'll do what I want... .

I've texted a bit with P... .we're going to talk soon this evening.  While I'm incredulous... .I'm oddly not ticked off... .but really have no idea at the moment where to go from here.

The big question... .why make an agreement with someone... .that doesn't keep agreements?

Can you be married to someone that doesn't keep agreements or compromises?

Sigh

FF

[formflier]

Is there some kind of positive change that's supposed to come out of all this plotting and scheming and demanding obedience? I'm not seeing it.

The part about the sister and forbidding... .wasn't really tied to this trip.  This trip was another notch in a long string of things were the sister has been toxic.  Especially when the sister starts advising my wife about how to treat me... run the house... .etc etc.

However... .I will say that my impression right now is there was no plotting or scheming.  That in all seriousness... .I left and a couple hours later... .off they went.

FF

[HopefulDad]

FF, taking a step back... .

You post a lot on here with a clear undertone of trying to make things work.  Honestly, your patience and temperament (at least as conveyed online) are admirable.  Yet you are posting in the Conflicted/Deciding forum.  If you don't mind me asking, where's your head at in your decision to stay or go?  50/50?  90/10 (either way)?  99% ready to leave, but still testing that final 1% due to religious reasons?

Just curious.  You obviously owe me no answer and clearly there is no timetable when a decision "should" be made.

[formflier]

Answering broadly:

I've seen how divorce goes in the family... .very bad... very.  Suicide attempts... .arrests of teenagers... .

That doesn't mean I won't do it, it does mean that it needs to be tactically... and strategically planned very carefully.

So... .I'm kind of taking a two track thing.  I'm pushing as hard as I can to improve the "family" (not just the marital r/s) but I'm also positioning things so that if I decided to separate or divorce... or if she ever filed... .I would be in a much better position.

I've got of other matters to wrap up before I would be in a position of strength.

So... my answer is I am striving for the best... .and planning/positioning for the worst. 

8 kids and a lot of assets and issues in the air make this very... very complicated.

Also... .there is a personality at work here.  There are few things in life that I have failed at.  I don't plan to fail at this.

What you are seeing (me versus BPD) is what happens when you give a "can do" guy and "can't do" problem... .

FF

[formflier]

And... .

Just had a good conversation via phone with P. 

She's fairly happy with how the first convo went down.  My wife was confronted about the behavior... .and now the plan is to let her sleep on it.

Have a follow up tomorrow.

We did some coaching and practice on avoiding rabbit trails.  Basically... .how to specifically call out preposterous behavior... succinctly.

FF

[empath]

The big question... .why make an agreement with someone... .that doesn't keep agreements?

Can you be married to someone that doesn't keep agreements or compromises?

Oh, my... .  A couple of years ago, my h wrote out an agreement about what all he was going to do to get healthy and what he agreed to as a consequence of him not following through. He signed it  (and included 'Lord have mercy' and everything, then he gave a copy to me and put it in a shared dropbox folder. It's still there, today. He hasn't done anything in that agreement, including the consequences... . 


Recently, he told me that he wrote something to his parents, but he sent me a copy of that too. He wrote something completely different. So, my issue was that he lied to me about what he wrote. I just pointed out the discrepancy in what he told me and what he wrote. That is a huge issue for me, especially if he is telling me that he is being honest with them. He tried to tell me that it was what he 'felt' - I didn't buy that excuse. I wasn't getting distracted by his words or feelings. Lots of 'help me understand' how you told me this and you wrote that - they aren't the same. He didn't like the convo.

I think maybe your issue is that she lied... . 

Here's another question: is 'disobeying' a husband a divorcable offense? I would be very surprised if it was in your church context... .

[formflier]

Here's another question: is 'disobeying' a husband a divorcable offense? I would be very surprised if it was in your church context... .

A one time lie or disobedience... .no.  A long term unrepentant pattern... .perhaps.  And... .really... .this church doesn't publish a "checklist" and they would not give a "blessing" to divorce.

The real test is whether or not church discipline gets pursued for an unbiblical divorce.  There are a usually a couple cases of that each year, however the context is usually someone that has already "given the finger" to the church and the marriage and the discipline is used to officially clean up the church rolls (remove them from membership)

Perhaps the lie is the biggest deal.  I try to be structural and separate problems.  I do rank them so I know where to "spend" energy.

I got some great coaching and practice on the phone about avoiding getting distracted when "calling her out" on bad behavior.

The big picture from my P.  "She knows she is wrong and is using what she usually does to try to transfer the uncomfortable feelings" (paraphrase).  I need to stick to my simple message and the P helped me create a line to emphasize the preposterous-nous (FF new word) of the situation.

When she is flopping about trying to get me to "explain" how this is not ok and she is right and I am wrong... .

"So (ff wife), a woman that got very angry that a father took his two adult children to lunch, when there were no specific plans to do anything else, believes the same Christian father should be "happy" when specific agreed upon plans for the spiritual growth of his children are changed, without his knowledge or consent, and those children are taken several states away, by his wife... his helper in a Christian marriage... .to a situation where she knows the Christian father disapproves of the spiritual influences... and you think that father should be happy about this?"

"Is that really what you are telling me your believe... .?"

blah blah blah yes

"That's laughable... .I'm not going to argue about this further"

then... .let the conscience stew for a few more days

FF

 

[Grey Kitty]

She believes I should be happy for her.

She see's no pattern of "betrayal of trust" or breaking of agreements

You know... .that was what happened to me when my wife cheated on me. (It was a bit weird--we did have an open marriage, but we had never agreed that it meant anybody, any time, any reason... .it had always been something where we would only be with somebody else if we had permission from the other)

But she really thought I should be happy for her, and was mad at me for not being happy for her... .and ignored the violation of trust completely.

The big question... .why make an agreement with someone... .that doesn't keep agreements?

DUDE! How long have I been telling you that?

Don't make agreements with her, because you cannot trust her to follow them. Especially long-term 'never do this again' or 'keep doing this forever' ones. She will ALWAYS blow those off when her feelings/emotions/paranoia/whatever come up. Agreements or compromises which are immediate, where you both take the agreed upon action, and nothing is left hanging for a week or a month later are much safer.

Can you be married to someone that doesn't keep agreements or compromises?

Call me a hard ass if you want... .Obviously you can, even if nobody else can. Look at the evidence: You've been married how many years now? And for quite a few of them (you indicate she got a lot worse after a natural disaster some years ago), she has consistently broken agreements.

The only marriage you have is one with somebody who doesn't keep agreements or compromises. Do you want to stay in it?

[formflier]

I'll respond more to GK's post later.


Last night (after our lovely talk)... .my wife was "uber happy"... .she "frolicked" with the kids.  Nothing wrong either of those things, I just find it and incredibly odd reaction  confrontation.

This morning she seemed almost inconsolable about important... .but non critical matters.

Shouldn't we hurry up and get the roof replaced. (no leaks... still adjusting insurance estimate from hail)

But your going to cash the 15k check today... .where is the money going to to... .?  (it's not cashed... .it is endorsed and mailed to mortgage company for their endorsement and deposit)

Why did you pick today to work on cleaning off your desk... .why not yesterday (didn't have time... my intuition said it was good day)

etc etc etc.

Note... .we have lots of houses and mortgages... .my wife knows and has handled these matters herself before... .she knows the check can't be cashed... .

Now... she is making breakfast and using phrases I haven't heard in years... ."Heavens to betsy... where is xyz"... ."Oh my goodness... .we'll have to do without chocolate chips today... "

Umm... .my wife hasn't spoken that way in years.

FF

[KateCat]

The only marriage you have is one with somebody who doesn't keep agreements or compromises.

Formflier, this sure is the marriage you've described over the period of time you've been a member of this forum.

Is there any way you can stop knocking yourself out over this? Could you maybe just express your hurt and disappointment after each incident of deception or verbal cruelty on your wife's part and quickly move on? (Your psychologist is surely right to help you see that your wife's behavior is willful and persistent, but you and your wife are such evenly matched combatants that it is hard--at least for me--to see you ever prevailing in struggle with her in any meaningful way.)

You've done so much to make your children safer over the past several years. I think you're doing great but wish you could be more protective of yourself in some way.

[formflier]

You've done so much to make your children safer over the past several years. I think you're doing great but wish you could be more protective of yourself in some way.

This is the rub in this particular case.  It involved my children

If my wife had done the trip alone... .it still would have shown up on my radar... .but I would be much more willing to move on with a statement of some kind... .and move on.

Suicide attempts, drug and alcohol convictions, DV and a "veneer" of Christianity to hide nastiness... .are what you get in my wife's sisters house.

My P is adamant that I don't understand the danger posed by the sister to my family and our marriage... .adamant.

I trust my P.  My P has had several individual sessions with my wife and is upfront with me that there are things wife wife said that I don't need to know (yet... .or perhaps ever).  P said it was obvious my wife was attempting to manipulate, but also revealed a lot of "family truth".

One of the other issues (with particular words) that my P wants me to use (at the appropriate time) is that FFw has created a triangle in our marriage by bringing in the sister.  This is the same as having an emotional affair.  That my wife's affections are somewhere other than with her husband.

I do understand many of the concerns raised and I would likely raise some of them myself, if I was a reader of this thread.  

FF

[Grey Kitty]

FF, from everything you've been saying and working on for months, I think you should trust your P--she seems really good.

Two minor things I'd like to comment on... .

My P is adamant that I don't understand the danger posed by the sister to my family and our marriage... .adamant.

The last thing I'm trying to do is downplay the danger from the sister to your family & marriage. I'm all for you taking action about that. And the question is what actions will work best.

Getting your wife be "obedient" to you in this regard is pretty much asking her to live up to an agreement. At best, it is like bailing a leaky boat.

If you can bail water out faster than it leaks in, it is helping. But don't allow yourself the illusion that you won't need to bail it out again next week, next month, next year, etc. The leak is still there.

One of the other issues (with particular words) that my P wants me to use (at the appropriate time) is that FFw has created a triangle in our marriage by bringing in the sister.  This is the same as having an emotional affair.  That my wife's affections are somewhere other than with her husband.

This may be persuasive with your wife, and if you and your P think it will work, go for it.

However, I don't agree that they are the same. An emotional affair has a romantic component, and (usually) sexual tension, which isn't acted upon. (Otherwise it would be a physical affair!). I really doubt that there is any of that between your wife and her sister.

In emotional affairs, triangulation is very common. But it isn't necessary. And triangulation is also very common without an EA.

I've got no doubt wife and SIL are triangulating with you. I'm willing to buy that your wife's affections are going to her instead of you. Most importantly, I've got no doubt of how bad an influence SIL is on your wife.

... .anyhow... .I don't want to sidetrack you too badly--I do want to see your response to the earlier post.

[formflier]

I should have explained the emotional affair thing better.

That is in the context of our religion.

Relationship ranksing

1.  With God
2.  With spouse
3.  With children
4.  With church
5.  With extended family
6.  With "rest of the world"

If you keep priorities in this order... .lots of decisions make themselves.  If you start reversing things... .and putting children ahead of spouse... .extended family above spouse... .etc etc... .

Expect chaos to reign in your life.

I do totally understand the romantic component thing... I'm not alleging that at all.  I am alleging that my wife's "emotional connection"... ."emotional affair" with her sister is far above her connection to me.

Substitute "value" for connection and it may be more accurate.

FF

[KateCat]

Would Gagrl's suggestion not work?

Is there a way to forbid actions involving your children without forbidding her actions?  That is, "I forbid the children from spending time with the juvenile-delinquent-cousin-who-endangers-them" versus "I forbid you from visiting your sister."

[KateCat]

My P is adamant that I don't understand the danger posed by the sister to my family and our marriage... .adamant.

Is your psychologist on board with action that would include you forbidding your wife to see her sister?

That sounds like a fateful decision.

[formflier]

At the moment P was very precise.

The forbidding is focused on ANY discussion of me or our marriage... .past... present... future.

I'm supposed to "tell" her what I believe... .and then challenge her to answer it

"FF wife... I believe you guys get together and talk about me behind my back in ways that are not honoring to our marriage.  What God has put together... let no man put asunder"

blah blah blah... what does that mean you won't work and lay around all day... blah blah blah

"tell me now FF wife... .in front of God... is this true?"

blah blah why is this important

"I forbid it.  From now on you are not allowed to discuss me or our marriage, past present or future, with your sister.  I forbid it."

That's pretty much word for word what we practiced.

No threats... no explanations... .

My P has said that I should never again let her visit her sister "unsupervised"... .but we said we would cross that bridge another day.

FF

[formflier]

So... .obviously we'll see how it really plays out and in next session I'm very interested in "why" my P thinks this approach is worth pursuing.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with forcing a choice on my wife's image.

She is attempting to keep her image "clean" in two different and incompatible worlds.

All this "mentoring" she is getting to be an upstanding Christian woman and also wants to be liked and "included" in a circle of toxic family women (with Christian veneers), currently lead by the sister (leadership switches around based on who is black and white).

Shine enough light on this... .and things will get interesting. 

"Christian Veneer" would be walking in someone's home and see verses and "pray constantly" signs all over the place... .yet they rarely attend church are an adulteress... .live in boyfriend... I could go on...

FF

[KateCat]

Is it because disparaging things about you and your marriage are said in the presence of your children that the psychologist is so adamant that this is unacceptable? I guess I'm not quite understanding yet . . . .

(I'm sort of under the impression that your wife says disparaging things about you in your home too.)

[formflier]

I should probably ask P for more details about why she sees the sister as such a threat.

Visits to the sister are always... .always... accompanied by rockin and rollin in our relationship for a while after.  Even time when my wife has had "the perfect trip" or gotten everything.

If they appear to get along... .or if they have a big blowout... .that part doesn't matter.

My guess is that the sister knows how to pour fuel on FFw paranoia... .especially regarding me.  Sister is divorced times 3... possibly even more (some of her relationships have been described in both ways... live in and marriage) failed marriages. 

In my wife's family... .we are the last marriage standing of that generation.  So... my wife's brother, sister and cousins.  I'm guessing my P see's the sister trying to take down the last one... .or something like that.

In the past few weeks... even months, the disparaging things about me have relatively died down.  However... this is part of a bigger cycle of things get good and then some sort of sabotage. 

Hope this gives some more context.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Regarding the emotional affair thing, we are using different words. Yep, she's definitely going outside your religious ranking talking with her sister.

I don't know what words you use to describe that, or describe failures/violations of that... .but I wouldn't use the words 'emotional affair' in that way, as that to me, is a romantic relationship where the romantic component is hidden from others (especially your spouse), but there aren't any physical/sexual activities.

"I forbid it.  From now on you are not allowed to discuss me or our marriage, past present or future, with your sister.  I forbid it."

  Staying on this message is good. I like it.

And like most agreements you make with her or rules you hand down to her, I have every expectation that even if she agrees to it, sooner or later, she will violate it again.

[KateCat]

From now on you are not allowed to discuss me or our marriage, past present or future, with your sister. 

[Fian]

I know you have a very high respect for your psychologist, but this advice to me does seem rather strange.  It is like pouring gasoline on an already volatile situation.  I mean we all want to say such things to our spouse, but usually with a calmer head we decide that it wouldn't really help and just cause damage. 

It also seems strange that you were already making some peace of the situation and controlling your emotions, and then your psychologists says it is even worse that you think.  I recommend questioning yourself a second time and not doing it just because your psychologists tell you that you can do so.  Be careful.