I'm starting to say "No, we can't" - need help dealing with what happens next...

[DaddyBear77]

This is a continuation of my previous topic 'I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that" '

Last night was the start of some real boundary setting. I decided to start with the notion of getting a new engagement ring, something she's been asking for now for over a year.

It all started at about 11:00 at night. D3 had been asleep for a couple of hours, and I know she's a deep sleeper so she wasn't going to wake up from normal-volume activity. My uBPDw and I had been snuggling for 45 minutes or so watching a movie. We were about to turn the lights out and go to sleep when my pwBPD said "I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."

So I said "Honey, I know we've been talking about this for a long time. I don't think it's a responsible decision to get an expensive ring like that right now." I got through about that much of it before pwBPD started interrupting me, etc. I managed to get the rest of this out, although I'm not sure how much registered: "And it seems like you already know we can't afford the ring. I know I've been discussing ways I could possibly get extra cash and use it to pay for a ring, but I don't think that's the responsible thing to do, so no, I won't be getting the engagement ring."

So something interesting happened right then. She stopped talking about the ring, and instead started saying "I wish you loved me like you used to love me. You're so angry and mean all the time. I need you to stop that. I need you to love me like you used to love me. Like you loved me at the beginning of our relationship."

This went on for almost 4 hours. At first she just got more insistent that I didn't love her the way she needed to be loved. Then she retreated into the bathroom and we talked through the closed door for about an hour. She kept saying she wanted me to "scoop her up, carry her into the bed, and make things the same as they were 18 years ago on the day I first said I loved her." I tried to remain neutral, sympathetic, saying things like "I am really sorry. I know how hard this must be. I can hear you sobbing and I would like to comfort you as best I can. Can you please take a deep breath and come out here so we can continue this discussion face to face?" Eventually, she had worked herself up to the point where she started dry heaving and gagging and she asked me to come in for that and I did. The sobbing and crying ended like a light switch when I opened the bathroom door. We moved the "conversation" back to the bed, and continued it for another 2 and a half hours. It was almost entirely a circular conversation where she said "You hate me. You speak to me harshly and disrespectfully. You don't love me the way you used to. Please love me. Please love me. Please love me." I held her, let her speak, I gave her little kisses. At one point I just wrapped myself tight around her and stayed there for what seemed like 15 minutes.

Like I said - there were no personal attacks, no name calling, no overt blaming or hurtful things. However, I really wanted to end the standoff in some way that didn't result in me giving in, and as we got toward

She entered "victim" mode. I went into "rescue" mode. She wasn't mean, she didn't call me names or label me or really do anything overtly hurtful. So I couldn't find it in myself to just say "No, I can't stay here for this. I need to leave." I also wasn't particularly tired so I didn't feel like the "I need sleep" argument would hold here, either. So I guess what I'm saying is that there was no obvious, in my face reason to just say "Look, I'm not having this conversation." That's not to say I wasn't fully prepared and ready to stand my ground on the topic of the ring, but what I'm realizing now is that I stayed engaged for over 4 hours and that gave her a 4 hour window of time to "work on me" through emotional means.

The only thing that really ended it IS me saying I'd consider alternatives. Which, again, isn't always a bad thing - a marriage should be based on compromise and considering the needs of both people, right? But right now, in our specific situation, my strong feeling is that it IS a bad thing to consider even a relatively inexpensive diamond ring. Too many bills are unpaid and too much is still at risk.

So should I have left anyway? Should I have walked away from this? It just seems mean and cruel to do that (and she would tell me that it was mean and cruel, too, but that's not the point - I felt that way anyway).

But... .did I really help anything by staying for so long?

[formflier]

But... .did I really help anything by staying for so long?

My first reaction is no... you didn't. 

You did take a step in the right direction... .   celebrate that.

There are more steps to take.  Sometimes you will step backwards... .realize that and look and step forward.

Can we work on some canned lines to end a conversation.  Please stop thinking you can solve this...

Focus on ending the hurt... .stop the bleeding... .kick the can down the road. 

"Get me a diamond... "
stay friendly.

"Oh my... .this is important... .it's late.  I'll think about this tomorrow... .with a clearer... .and rested head."

Just end it... .

Can you try to write 5 different ways you could have ended it... .no longer than what I wrote... .?

   

Good job on taking that first step!

FF

[Notwendy]

My H and I used to have these late night circular "discussions" that went no where and if we did resolve anything we were both exhausted the next day.

Bedtime is the bewitching time for a reason. People are tired. Our MC gave us a very good rule to follow. It is to not have any kind of emotional discussion when we are HALT  Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired

It is also a key to self care, used in different counseling programs and in AA.


www.ellenharriscounseling.com/PDF/August10.pdf


Here is where you got swept into the drama- recall you are her human zaxax, what she does to calm herself down. When we are HALT, we are usually not at our best, and for someone with BPD that might mean deregulating.

So she is tired, the TV is off, the child is in bed, there are no distractions from her feelings. She is Tired, maybe anxious, worried you don't love her and needs an emotional "fix" - drama, reassurance, whatever. So she doesn't say " I feel worried you don't love me" She projects" I know you are going to do something... ."

I don't mean to present drama bait as intentionally mean. Drama is an emotional fix and this is what your wife has found works with you and so she is going to do it, and continue to do it as long as it works. You've been the rescuer/fixer and that is your bait as well.

When you hear something like this, especially when you are feeling HALT it helps to visualize this statement as yummy bait on a hook waiting for you- a hungry fish-  to bite, as usual.

Here is where you took the bait:

pwBPD said "I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."

So I said "Honey, I know we've been talking about this for a long time. I don't think it's a responsible decision to get an expensive ring like that right now." I got through about that much of it before pwBPD started interrupting me, etc. I managed to get the rest of this out, although I'm not sure how much registered: "And it seems like you already know we can't afford the ring. I know I've been discussing ways I could possibly get extra cash and use it to pay for a ring, but I don't think that's the responsible thing to do, so no, I won't be getting the engagement ring."


So what about the next time. During the day, when neither of you are HALT, have a discussion. Say, honey, you know these discussions late at night just wear us both out and I would much rather cuddle with you and have a good nights sleep. I have been reading about an idea called HALT. It says that when we are tired, we are not at our best. I know you have some important things to talk to me about, and I really want to be at my best when we do. So, I am going to practice HALT when I am too tired to discuss things and we can then discuss them at a time when I am not tired.

This is a boundary. You're going to be in for a wild time until she gets that you are not going to do this at night.


"I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."


Eventually you will be thinking "BAIT!"  Don't bite it!

Validate and set the boundary.

Honey, I hear that you are worried that I might do something awful. That must feel really bad to think that I would want to hurt you. Remember our talk about practicing HALT? I am really tired. I know I am not at my best to discuss this with you but I would like to talk about it tomorrow. I would like to cuddle and go to sleep now.

[Notwendy]

Reading some of the things your wife said made me wonder, yes, it is about the ring but maybe not all about the ring.

She wants you to love her like you did when you got engaged .I guess at this time you were all romantic and loving to her as well.

After years of resentment and the stress of being financially stretched, this feeling might not be as strong for you, even if you do love her.

Also, over the years that "thrill" of newly dating has to be worked at. It is hard to do this when two people are so familiar with each other and have emotional baggage.

I don't know how this would go over, but I do think it is good that you were honest about not being able to buy a ring.

But you can still  be romantic like you were 18 years ago.

I don't know how this would go over, but maybe when D3 is in bed, and it is just the two of you, you bring out a bottle of wine, some chocolate, some cheese and crackers and set a picnic on the living room floor, act all romantic, and ask her to marry you all over again.

Worth a try, and won't break the bank.

[formflier]

I second Notwendy's idea. 

Look up Gotman's research on partners "bidding" towards each other.

You don't control how she "interprets" those bids.  But I do think that being intentional about "building bridges toward her" is wise.

Note:  Keep buckets separate.

You can have serious discussions during the day when HALT does not apply.  Perhaps you can even argue.  Set that aside... .love your wife.  If she reciprocates... .great.  If not... .love your wife.

When you are done with that... .go to bed.

Each of these are deliberate... .thoughtful acts.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Our MC gave us a very good rule to follow. It is to not have any kind of emotional discussion when we are HALT  Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired

It is also a key to self care, used in different counseling programs and in AA.

www.ellenharriscounseling.com/PDF/August10.pdf

This is great stuff. Thank you Notwendy

As you can imagine, we've had a few tries at MC over the years. We've heard this suggestion before. We even tried it several years back, but it's kind of like "all bets are off" kind of thing lately. Really stressful. But yeah, it was good. I'll go with this... .

This is a boundary. You're going to be in for a wild time until she gets that you are not going to do this at night.
... .
Validate and set the boundary.

So right here is the tough part, and I guess this is one place (THE place?) I've been stuck all along. Enforcing boundaries.

I could ask a relatively stupid question, and say, "But she really is in pain! And she isn't being mean or hurting me. So why not stay?" but elaborating on what I said in my original post - it's been 18 years of very similar incidents. Why on Earth would I think that suddenly, staying up until 4 in the morning is going to fix anything?

The way I see it, my task is to prepare for what I'm going to do, tonight, when the inevitable happens?

Let's be realistic, though - it's not going to be a one sentence thing then be done... .

pwBPD: "I'm anxious"
Me: "I hear that you're anxious. After all that's happened in the past few days, you must feel pretty stressed and worried. I would like to discuss this with you, but I am exhausted right now, and I need some sleep. I will set aside some time in the morning before I start my work day to discuss this. Would you like to cuddle a little more after we get under the covers?"
pwBPD: "There's no way I'm going to be able to sleep with this on my mind. It's not fair for you to leave me anxious like this"
Me: "I heard you that you're anxious, and that it will be hard for you to sleep. I'm not going to discuss this right now, but I will discuss it with you in the morning. Can I offer you a back rub or a foot rub to help you relax?"
pwBPD: "You're ignoring what I'm saying and you're hurting me even more by not engaging with me. We're going to be too busy in the morning with D3 / etc / etc. This is the only time we have to discuss it, so I need you to engage with me now!"
Me: "I really need to sleep now. I will need to go downstairs if we can't sleep together now in the bed. Are you willing... ."
pwBPD: ":)on't walk out on me! That's not fair, and it damages our relationship when you refuse to do the loving thing. Either stay and help me now or I will have to cry myself to sleep again. If I have to do that, it's going to do more irreparable harm to our relationship and I don't know how I am going to be able to talk to you in the morning or any other time. I am hurt and I am anxious because of what you've done! You need to fix this and you need to fix this now.
Me: I'm sorry. I need to get some sleep now. Hopefully we can talk about this in the morning when we're more rested. I love you
pwBPD: Great, and there you go walking out on me. Please do something different. Please do the loving thing here. Don't walk out like this. I can't believe you're doing this. Why don't you love me anymore! WHY DON'T YOU CARE! YOU'RE SO COLD! YOU'RE SO CRUEL!
  pwBPD sends a text bomb. I ignore it. Phone to silent. pwBPD starts calling. Phone off. 20-30 minutes later, pwBPD comes downstairs
pwBPD: Please end this. Please love me and be my guy and stop this coldness and cruelty. Come to bed with me and be my lover. This isn't the guy I married. You've turned into this cold, mean person. You've become your father and your mother all rolled into one. This isn't what you promised me. This isn't who you were when we met. Please, I'm begging you.
Me: Love, I told you that I needed to sleep and that I'd discuss this with you in the morning. You've come down and interrupted me sleeping and that's not OK with me. Please leave and let me sleep or else I'm going to need to leave the house and come back in the morning. I really don't want to have to do that, so please let me go back to sleep here on the sofa and we can both be here in the house tonight.
pwBPD: You have completely switched off and disconnected. There's nothing left here. WHY? Why don't you love me anymore? What is wrong with you? There is something seriously wrong with you that you could do this to me? How can you ignore me when I'm in so much pain?
Me: I need to leave the house now. I'm sorry. I will be back at 9am and we can talk then. I love you.


Now, does the above make sense? Because it's freaking me out just thinking about going through with it - maybe that's a good sign.

But I need to be sure this is the right thing before I do it.

[Lucky Jim]

This went on for almost 4 hours.

Hey DB, Why are you doing this for four hours?  I used to have the same sort of marathon circular arguments with my BPDxW, which never resolved anything.  I suggest that you pick a limit for how long you are willing to entertain this discussion -- maybe 20 minutes or, say, 30 minutes at most -- and stick to that timeframe.  The length of your discussions is a boundary issue, as I'm sure you are aware.

LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

Hey DB, Why are you doing this for four hours?

Great question, Lucky Jim.

I stay in these conversations for hours and hours primarily to avoid the inevitable chain of events that I describe above.

Two major parts to the above chain of events bother me more than spending 4 hours arguing.

First part is watching / knowing the pain my pwBPD is in. I'd like to help her deal with that pain, rather than turn it back on her to face it / deal with it herself. I realize this is extremely unhealthy and harmful to my pwBPD (I only recently realized how harmful it was / is / could be). And I'm willing to admit this is perhaps my primary, most urgent personal dysfunction - caretaking / rescuing impulses are a major reason I find myself where I am stuck, 18 years in.

The second part is that boundary enforcement, at least at first, would necessarily mean leaving the house and going somewhere else to spend the night. Leaving the house is an added expense, disruptive to D3, a major disruption to my job, and something I've tried really hard to avoid.

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
It's admirable that you want to spare your wife pain. It's the reason why you can say with all honesty that you don't want to hurt her. You know she can trust you. Now she needs to learn that.

I'd like you to think about how long the hurt would have lasted lat night if you had ended the conversation after 20 minutes. Do you think she would have stayed uncomfortable in the bathroom if you were not sitting outside the door?  Do you think she would have worked herself up to the point of gagging if you were not there to hear it?  Do you think she would have stayed awake the entire 4 hours if you weren't there to keep the conversation going?  My guess is that your loving actions prolonged rather than reduced the pain. 

Think about the way you have taught your daughter that she can trust that you will be there for her. It's not by staying with her 24/7. It's by leaving when you need to and coming back, as promised.

I think you have a general idea of how tonight may go. I would encourage you to think as each word as another wound. Minimize the words and maximize the actions. Rest in the knowledge that you love her and take those actions with as much calm confidence as you can. Think of her the way you did your daughter who wouldn't be soothed by your words, but by your demeanor and tone.

My prayers are with you.

BG

[Grey Kitty]

Two major parts to the above chain of events bother me more than spending 4 hours arguing.

First part is watching / knowing the pain my pwBPD is in. I'd like to help her deal with that pain, rather than turn it back on her to face it / deal with it herself.

She may not be self-aware... .but she's VERY consistent in doing this. She is using her pain to manipulate you into doing things which are self-destructive "for her". Like staying awake all night. Like driving yourself to bankruptcy.

That hook gets you. Badly. She's going to keep using it on you. She probably can't stop, even if she wanted to.

Now you are starting to understand that it isn't healthy. That's actually HUGE progress. You'll do better.

Let me ask you... .do you feel better for finally telling her you can't afford the engagement ring she wants, and won't be buying it?

[DaddyBear77]

Let me ask you... .do you feel better for finally telling her you can't afford the engagement ring she wants, and won't be buying it?

GK - it felt a little better at first, but the badgering and manipulation that is going on now isn't so great.

I've agreed to consider something dramatically less expensive but she's already trying to work me back up.

[formflier]

You are taking steps... .this is good.

I think another step should be taken quickly.

Setting boundaries around conversations.  This will help you avoid the hooks she uses.

GK is right on point... .she will not change  If if she wants to ... .it is unlikely.

This is up to you

"Babe... I know this ring is important to you.  I'm going to take time to think this through.  Let's plan a "date night" walk in two weeks so I can share my thoughts on how to budget for this."

Then... .don't discuss it until then.

Just don't... .

FF

[Notwendy]

One thing I have found with letting my BPD mother get me to give in a little ( ie a less expensive ring in your case) is that then, the pushing continues to up the ante. Better to set the boundary in the beginning, because to give in a little doesn't stop the pushing.

Buying/getting things is one way, but there are other ways too. She will make what seems like a small request- and then add other things to it. One of her demands was to include her extended family in our own family get togethers with our immediate families. Sometimes we didn't want a large group but if we extended the invitation to her, it then becomes- and "if you don't invite X, they will be upset. But then inviting X, means Y too and so on. Then, if we do invite X and Y, then she starts with what is going to happen " you have to serve this kind of wine at the meal" " you need to have this and that for them. Saying no at the get go doesn't stop the pushing- the boundary has to be repeated over and over again. I've learned that the boundary has to be set somewhere. Either I choose to include X and Y or I don't. If I do, then the meal plan has to be the boundary. Without a firm boundary, there isn't any kind of limit.

You know that a less expensive ring won't do. You may offer it in the moment to stop the pushing, but that doesn't work. Once the ring is on the table, the negotiations continue about the size, cost, style.

When my H and I got married, we didn't have money for a larger ring. I did later reset it into a different setting- but not something that was unaffordable. I have friends who have done this as well. So I do get the wish, but for any purchase, it has to be affordable. Your wife's wish isn't inappropriate, but it is disconnected from your reality.

When there is this disconnect- insisting on something that isn't connected to reality and can not be fathomed with logic, then there is emotion behind it. Logic doesn't solve the situation, because the "need" isn't logical. The logical solution to her wanting a ring is to get one you can afford. But that doesn't solve it. The feelings are based on THAT ring. Another ring won't do ( and the ring won't solve her feelings anyway). How has buying the things she wants to prove you love her worked at making her feel loved so far?

[Grey Kitty]

GK - it felt a little better at first, but the badgering and manipulation that is going on now isn't so great.

DB, you are aiming at the wrong problem.

The problem isn't anything she is talking about. The problem isn't her feelings. The problem isn't her anxiety. The problem isn't her pain.

The problem is that she is badgering you and manipulating you mercilessly.

The problem is that (even when you said no!) she still manipulated you into being badgered, guilted, attacked, for 4 !#$!@# hours in the middle of the night.

What happened during those 4 hours where you were trying to comfort her, trying to take her pain away from her was damaging to you, damaging to her, and damaging to your marriage.

The solution is enforcing boundaries that protect you from that.

[Notwendy]

I understand that this is a tough situation. One of your choices is to accept that this is the way things work for you and to keep on doing what you are doing. So long as the money comes in one way or another, it is possible to continue this indefinitely. If you do take this route, know that you are choosing this way out of all your possible and difficult choices.

You can choose this situation with your wife- she gets the rings, the trips. You may have to choose to not buy some other things for you or your D. This may be the balance in your family. Or you can change it. I think all choices have pros and cons, desirable outcomes, and challenges. One possible outcome of this choice is that you actually do get into serious trouble and those consequences happen.

One idea might be to visit a financial adviser together. Let the adviser pull out all the financial information and discuss your options. This takes you out of the being the one to tell her what you can and can not afford. Sometimes hearing things from a neutral source makes it less emotional.

In every family there are priorities and a certain amount of money. Some families might choose to save, others to spend on certain things. Your family will choose your priorities.

[formflier]

DB, you are aiming at the wrong problem.
The problem is that she is badgering you and manipulating you mercilessly. (and it is working

The other things are problems... .to be sure.    Not all problems have to be solved right now.

In fact, it would be very wise for you to pick 1... perhaps 2 things and focus on those.

Essentially any of these issues involve you communicating... .or choosing not to communicate.  Until you gain control of when YOU choose to communicate or not, I think it unwise to spend any time on other issues.

I'm not aware of any situation or process where you regain control and your wife will tolerate this... like it... appreciate it.  She will react badly

Until you are ready to hold up under her "bad reactions".  Please don't attempt any of this.  

If she "rolls you" or "wins" or your boundary "crumbles"... .the situation will be much worse

FF

[DaddyBear77]

I'm trying really hard to summon the amount of courage and strength it will take to make a huge push forward. I'm on the cusp. I can feel that.

Here's the breakdown:
1. I can't afford the life I am trying to live. Financially, Emotionally, and Physically.
2. Eventually, the people, institutions, and things I have borrowed from will come after me looking to be paid back.
Financially, this means lawsuits. Emotionally, this means break down, worsening depression, losing my mind, acting and behaving like someone I hate. Physically this means exhaustion, lack of focus, loss of mental capacity.
3. Among all the possible outcomes, I can see a scenario that I couldn't see before. I could see me eventually becoming an inpatient or becoming completely dependent for a period of time on relatives, medical professionals, or someone else. This sounds extreme - and right now it's a far fetched possibility - but it's out there.


What can I do to prevent this chain of events from progressing any further?
1. Take a complete inventory of my financial, emotional, and physical life.
2. Address one thing at a time, and address it as completely as possible.
3. Repeat these steps daily / weekly

For example, item number one on the financial list: Finish the bankruptcy paperwork. Keep the process moving. Right now I'm stalled. Can't let that happen.

I know there have been a ton of good suggestions on what should be on the inventory list of "things" and I'll sort through that as a part of step 1.

Any thoughts or feedback on what I just said?

[formflier]

I would think it is a good idea to pause BK paperwork for a month.

Are you trying to stave off a foreclosure?  Any "immediate" catastrophe you are trying to avoid?

A BK will take an emotional toll on you.  Much better (IMO) to fix the finances (your r/s) and create settlements with your debtors.  Unsecured debt can sometimes go at 10 cents on the dollar.

The BK is not the problem.  The finances are not the problem. 

The ARE problems... .but energy spent on them will be wasted if the main problem is not addressed.

SPEND your energy wisely.  If you are not able to control communications right now.  Create a plan to get to there in a few weeks.  SPEND all of your energy on that.

Last:  How many late trade lines do you have at the moment? 

FF

[DaddyBear77]

FF - I have a huge mess with about 8 lines 120+ days late and about 12-15 total lines. Only one creditor has filed suit so far but I expect others any day now. Foreclosure has been avoided once by draining my 401k so I have a fresh 90 days. But I now have absolutely nothing to make any sort of lump sum settlement with.

Having said that, I totally agree that the bigger problem is the relationship dynamic. As I said in my original post - BK solves exactly none of that.

[formflier]

Can you keep your mortgage current and stay in the house?

Assume you stiff all the other unsecured guys out there.

In your state if they get a judgement, can the garnish wages?

I should really stay away from giving to much legal advice.  I would say that you should talk to and attorney (other than the BK attorney) to make sure that you understand what can actually happen if your creditors sue and win. 

In many states the bark is much worse than the bite. 

Many BK attorneys want a lot of BK business... .so if you ask a BK attorney... "should I file BK... " the answer is often times yes.

Perhaps some time with a fee based financial planner.

BK is a big step.  I considered it after a natural disaster and instead did some settlements.  It made sense for my particular situation. 

I have friends that have went BK.  Some were "ok" with it... .some felt traumatized because things went differently than they wanted.  You will likely loose a lot of control.  your pwBPD will flip out and blame you.

Much better that you stay in control of that... .and be "accurately" blamed for it... .rather than have the court take "her" stuff and have her blame you.

Lot's of research to be done on this... .take time to think it through.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't know whether you will be significantly worse off should you file now, wait a month, or wait three months, at least in terms of your finances when you come out the other end.

That's a logical question, and you can get answers from a good lawyer, I'd imagine.

I can tell you one thing: Your wife will still demand that you show her you love her by spending more money than you can afford to when you come out the other side of it.

My advice is what they say on airplanes: "Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others"

You need to take care of your own physical and emotional needs.

If you don't, worst case, you could end up with a complete breakdown, leaving your daughter with only your wife to take care of her and pay to support her. (And nothing you've written indicates that she is capable of functioning that well!)

The problem is that if you let yourself be beaten down by your wife's hours and hours of being needy, badgering, critical, etc... .you will find yourself unable to do the right thing financially, unable to get sleep, etc.

[DaddyBear77]

I spoke to a couple of attorneys and have done a great deal of research. There are a few questions still open, but with my income level it's likely I'll be filing under Chapter 13. There is no liquidation but the flip side is that there's very little debt that's eliminated. It's paid over a 3 to 5 year period. What I'm working through now is just the questionnaire that my chosen attorney has asked me to complete. I should get more answers once they have a chance to review my specifics. I think it's worth my while. But I can confirm that my attorney does NOT think there is any urgency to file at this time.

My pwBPD heard all this - she was at the appointment - but I don't think she absorbed most of it either. And not because she doesn't get it, but her anxiety is a 99 on a scale from 1 to 10.

So yeah, I agree completely that THE problem is Communication (FF) / Badgering (GK).

But, yeah, I just have very little confidence that I'll be able to work toward a mutually acceptable compromise here. It's going to end up being a situation where I say "I can't do that. Sorry" and things blow up and I let them.

Is that communication? Not by any definition I'm familiar with?

[BeagleGirl]

It's going to end up being a situation where I say "I can't do that. Sorry" and things blow up and I let them.

Is that communication? Not by any definition I'm familiar with?

DaddyBear,
I'm not sure why, but lately when I read your posts I keep thinking of the kind of communication a responsible adult has with a tantrum prone child.  I keep feeling like that is what needs to happen between you and your wife.  At the same time, I know how much I fight against the idea of being "parent" to my BPDh and long for the partnership and communication that two healthy adults have.  I resist treating him like a child, because I keep hoping that he will magically finally realize that he needs to start acting like an adult.  Then I think about what it takes to "grow up" and I know that firm boundaries and learning to self regulate were keys for my boys.  Is it possible that my husband need the same "parenting"? 

So maybe I'm projecting, but I keep envisioning your wife in the role of a child.  Her "cookie before dinner" is a new engagement ring that you can't afford.  You say "No.  I understand what you want, but it's not good for you and so I'm not going to allow you to have it".  There starts the tantrum.  By the end of the tantrum, she's kept both of you up half the night and gotten you to agree to the possibility of chocolate cake before dinner.  You, exhausted, think "Well, at least I didn't give in and give her the cookie, and at least I got half the night of sleep.  For her - It's not the cookie, but it's still something that is not good.  And she's learned that certain behavior may not get her exactly what she wants, but it gets something almost as good and leaves the door open for more. 

Do you see that as the dynamic that's happening?

Now to switch perspectives - While I'm a non and your wife is BPD, I think that there are some core desires that we may share.  I admire and desire a man who is willing to stand firm in what he believes, no matter what I throw at him.  When he's standing firm, I think I can trust him.  I watch for wavering.  If he wavers, I don't know that I can trust him.  If he wavers and caves, then I KNOW I can't trust him.  If he wavers, takes time to regroup, and returns to his firm stance - I KNOW I can trust him.  I may not particularly like his stance, or him, but I have to say that I have more respect for a man who firmly holds to beliefs that are in opposition to mine than a man whose beliefs change depending on circumstances.  Worse yet, a man who says he believes one thing, but then acts against those beliefs.  Such a man can not be trusted.

So, from your wife's perspective, what camp do you fall in?  Can she trust you?  Can she respect you? 

I know that all of this is very overwhelming right now.  You are being pushed on all sides and are probably desperate for one area of your life that can be peaceful, just long enough to collect your thoughts.  I would imagine that nothing feels safe right now.  What can you do to find or create a safe space? 

[Grey Kitty]

I think BG's assessment of the dynamic between you and your wife is pretty much spot on. ('Tho I'd like to add that the part with your wife's perspective is written as if she realizes that this is the way it is... .and while I don't think she understands this or would acknowledge it. Doesn't make it any less true, though)

But, yeah, I just have very little confidence that I'll be able to work toward a mutually acceptable compromise here.

You shouldn't have any confidence.

You will NEVER find a mutually acceptable compromise with your wife.

If you provide the structure, and force her into a reasonable position, she will accept it. But she will push for something different forever.

Her anxiety (and other feelings) drive her. She will do ANYTHING to calm those feelings down. She will demand ANYTHING of you to get away from those feelings RIGHT NOW. Doesn't matter how much worse it will make her feelings longer term. Doesn't matter how much it will hurt you. Doesn't matter if it will leave her living homeless on the street with her daughter and new diamonds.

Her feelings are too consuming for her. They won't let her make a reasonable compromise.

Except that feeling DO change. So she will eventually agree to something sane when her anxiety lets go, and other feelings come up. When you see a glimpse of the woman  you love.

And feelings change. The anxiety will be back. She will throw her previous agreement/compromise out the window. Heck, she will turn it into a weapon and use it to throw you out the window instead.


Radical acceptance time:

You cannot treat her as an adult, as an equal, at least in two major areas of decisions:

1. Spending money.
2. When the badgering/attacking stops. (aka when the discussion stops, and whether you need to sooth her.)

You have to be the responsible adult in both these areas, looking out for her interests and your interests (and D3's interests). Note that what she demands of you often isn't even in her own best interest!

Money is 'easy'. You've created budgets, set priorities. You know those answers; your only problem with money is that you try to do it as a 'compromise' with her.

And that 'compromise' goes badly (aka is thrown out!) because she is relentlessly badgering you, wearing you down over months, years even, taking one night of sleep away from you at a time, etc.

Often I advise members to pick one boundary to enforce first, and I usually suggest verbal/emotional abuse, because if you pick another one and try to enforce it, your partner uses the verbal/emotional abuse to wear you down on the other one you chose.

In your case, you've been living with it for so long, that you don't even see it when it starts most of the time... .let me point out what goes wrong in this example of you being awoken/kept awake:

pwBPD: "I'm anxious"

(Still good this far!)

Me: "I hear that you're anxious. After all that's happened in the past few days, you must feel pretty stressed and worried. I would like to discuss this with you, but I am exhausted right now, and I need some sleep. I will set aside some time in the morning before I start my work day to discuss this. Would you like to cuddle a little more after we get under the covers?"

(Not bad; perhaps slightly invalidating; I try to avoid the word "but" if at all possible. I also see clues you are trying to cave "only a little bit" to her demands... .in other words, telling her to keep pushing harder, she'll get your attention for 4 hours tonight if she keeps trying!)

pwBPD: "There's no way I'm going to be able to sleep with this on my mind. It's not fair for you to leave me anxious like this"

Up 'till now, this was a discussion with you. She just drove it off the cliff. Yeah, you can stay belted in on the ride down to the crash if you want, but there is NO WAY you will get this thing back on the road from here.

Up 'till now, she was anxious, and you were concerned that she was anxious. That's reasonable.

Now she's telling you that you are responsible for her anxiety.

It is her feeling. You are NOT responsible for it. Even if your actions caused it (unlikely but possible).

The only feeling you are responsible for is the one you have. (Probably fear about what this night is going to turn into!)

Me: "I heard you that you're anxious, and that it will be hard for you to sleep. I'm not going to discuss this right now, but I will discuss it with you in the morning. Can I offer you a back rub or a foot rub to help you relax?"

And now you are trying to turn the steering wheel as the car flies through the air, aiming toward the road.

pwBPD: "You're ignoring what I'm saying and you're hurting me even more by not engaging with me. We're going to be too busy in the morning with D3 / etc / etc. This is the only time we have to discuss it, so I need you to engage with me now!"

Surprise! The wheel doesn't do anything as you are hurtling through the air toward the ground below!

Me: "I really need to sleep now. I will need to go downstairs if we can't sleep together now in the bed. Are you willing... ."

Better. You are telling her that you are about to eject from the car and open your parachute so you get down safely. You could have DONE it already, but at least you aren't trying to steer the flying car anymore.

pwBPD: ":)on't walk out on me! That's not fair, and it damages our relationship when you refuse to do the loving thing. Either stay and help me now or I will have to cry myself to sleep again. If I have to do that, it's going to do more irreparable harm to our relationship and I don't know how I am going to be able to talk to you in the morning or any other time. I am hurt and I am anxious because of what you've done! You need to fix this and you need to fix this now.

Please tell me you do see how unfair and unreasonable this is. (Now, looking back at it, at least) It is pure emotional abuse.

The blunt truth is that she probably does need to cry herself to sleep, and should do it someplace you can't hear her. (You have your own issues; you may be crying yourself to sleep, or may be so worried you are unable to sleep yourself.

Me: I'm sorry. I need to get some sleep now. Hopefully we can talk about this in the morning when we're more rested. I love you

But the emotional blackmail is working. You're still trying to get her to 'compromise' on something, instead of taking action.

[BeagleGirl]

I LOVE the imagery of trying to steer a car after it's gone over the cliff. Hate that I do it, but love the imagery.

[empath]

My counselor recently asked me if I felt like I was an emotional hostage, held hostage by my husband's emotions. I said yes, but I'm getting better at not being. I've detached a lot and let his emotions be his without trying to fix them.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey - thank you. This is really good stuff.

I have been trying to get the mental space to reply properly. I leave on a 5 day trip tomorrow, 3000 miles away from all this, so that could be a good opportunity.

I see two "top level" issues here:
1. My pwBPD is never going to see things the way I want her to see them
2. I've been lying for 18 years to avoid confronting item 1

As everyone has said in multiple ways through multiple posts, the only thing I can change is myself. I'm a liar every bit as much as all of your pwBPD are liars. I can't ever expect my pwBPD to trust me, even if that wasn't a core issue. I feel a ton of guilt and shame over that. I'm trying hard to stop the justifications in my head for why I've lied all this time. I think that's a first step. But I just don't know. This is going to be a really hard problem to deal with.

That's all for now. Thank you Grey Kitty, BeagleGirl, and everyone else. Your posts and what you've said is on my mind pretty constantly.

[formflier]

  I'm a liar every bit as much as all of your pwBPD are liars. 

Can you expand on this.  First blush is I want to challenge you on it.

I suspect that we will discover very big differences... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Hey man, enjoy your time away from your wife for a few days. And especially enjoy getting full nights of sleep without being woken up needing to cure her anxiety / be her emotional punching bag.

Allow me to suggest you turn your phone off at night, or at least mute it / mute her!

[Notwendy]

I would second muting the phone, but if she has your D - that will be hard to do. But do try to enjoy some peace if you can.

I know it's hard. I just set a boundary with my mother and received some pitiful messages on my phone basically her telling me how much I hurt her, that I'm disowned, she'll never forgive me. It's really hard to hear this. But a few minutes later she calls a sibling and she's fine. She's projected her bad feelings and feels better. We are left with what we heard.

It may help that what your wife says in the moment is very real - in the moment she is hurting and it's hard to see that. But the moment also can pass.