Do they mean what they say when they're disregulated? This is gaslighting right?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Welcome to my butt ass hurt, totally not productive, why does this still hurt so much pity party of the day. I'm aware that I should be spending my time ANY OTHER WAY.

But I'm reading pwBPD's greatest hits from the day hell broke loose.

"What is your problem? Seriously. I was trying to be warm to you. To make you feel loved and you have zero interest in warmth and closeness. I truly don't understand. You are constantly dissatisfied but do not participate in my attempts to make things better. I don't get it.

What part of "how are you?", "what do you need?", "what can I do?" does not come across as honest and caring?

What is it that you want? Why do you demand things of me when I constantly paint to you the picture of my life?

I am at such a loss. I do not understand any of it. I must be stupid.

What part of "I'm sick" is unclear to you? What part of sharing how you feel and what you desire openly and candidly is bad?

I also don't understand how you do not accept me asking those questions and wanting answers as clear signs of caring and closeness?

I really don't understand what went down. I really do not understand anything, really. Your actions only make sense coming from a deeply unsatisfied person. Why were you around me if I was so crummy?

You never committed to me. You got into my son's life knowing that you were not going to be committed to it. I do not understand. and I'm stupid for hoping I will get answers from you.

You are the opposite of supportive, I do not understand why I did not deserve better. Why do you always hide what you have to say? If I didn't want to hear it I would not ask.

I'm a fool. I spent so much money, time, effort, energy, in you knowing you were not ready and that I was walking into my doom. I have nothing. Absolutely nothing. But you don't care so I should stop.

You are just a bunch of promises. I was not sufficently important to you to make good on those promises. I really wish I understaood what I did to you to deserve the attitude you had since Friday. If you ever find out, please share.

What do I tell my son when he asks for you?"

Remember, this is all after he booted me from his apartment without so much as the dignity of a paper bag to carry my ___ across the parking lot in. After he put his fist through a wall after threatening to put it through my face. And yet... .

WHY DOES THIS SOUND REASONABLE TO ME? He doesn't seem mad... .bewildered maybe. Confused.

EXCEPT IT'S NOT HOW I REMEMBER THINGS! Can our views of reality REALLY be this different? Because what I remember is that he had retreated so far from me that I had essentially become his babysitter while he lay around in bed moaning about how I made him break his glasses and ruined our entire spring break vacation. That's what *I* remember. So is this projection? Does he really believe this ___? I know that no pancake is too flat to have two sides but seriously... .he gave me EVERYTHING knowing that *I* wasn't ready? *I* wasn't committed to HIM? REALLY?

I feel like I'm losing my damn mind. I was rereading in the hopes of reminding myself why I should not be missing him and I'm left all twisted around and wondering how our views could possibly be so opposite. Why am I back to questioning MY reality? When I first got these texts they pissed me off. Now they're just making me question myself.

This is gaslighting right? Are they aware of it when they're doing it? Or is this really his reality?

[Lalathegreat]

Welcome to my butt ass hurt, totally not productive, why does this still hurt so much pity party of the day. I'm aware that I should be spending my time ANY OTHER WAY.

But I'm reading pwBPD's greatest hits from the day hell broke loose.

"What is your problem? Seriously. I was trying to be warm to you. To make you feel loved and you have zero interest in warmth and closeness. I truly don't understand. You are constantly dissatisfied but do not participate in my attempts to make things better. I don't get it.

What part of "how are you?", "what do you need?", "what can I do?" does not come across as honest and caring?

What is it that you want? Why do you demand things of me when I constantly paint to you the picture of my life?

I am at such a loss. I do not understand any of it. I must be stupid.

What part of "I'm sick" is unclear to you? What part of sharing how you feel and what you desire openly and candidly is bad?

I also don't understand how you do not accept me asking those questions and wanting answers as clear signs of caring and closeness?

I really don't understand what went down. I really do not understand anything, really. Your actions only make sense coming from a deeply unsatisfied person. Why were you around me if I was so crummy?

You never committed to me. You got into my son's life knowing that you were not going to be committed to it. I do not understand. and I'm stupid for hoping I will get answers from you.

You are the opposite of supportive, I do not understand why I did not deserve better. Why do you always hide what you have to say? If I didn't want to hear it I would not ask.

I'm a fool. I spent so much money, time, effort, energy, in you knowing you were not ready and that I was walking into my doom. I have nothing. Absolutely nothing. But you don't care so I should stop.

You are just a bunch of promises. I was not sufficently important to you to make good on those promises. I really wish I understaood what I did to you to deserve the attitude you had since Friday. If you ever find out, please share.

What do I tell my son when he asks for you?"

Remember, this is all after he booted me from his apartment without so much as the dignity of a paper bag to carry my ___ across the parking lot in. After he put his fist through a wall after threatening to put it through my face. And yet... .

WHY DOES THIS SOUND REASONABLE TO ME? He doesn't seem mad... .bewildered maybe. Confused.

EXCEPT IT'S NOT HOW I REMEMBER THINGS! Can our views of reality REALLY be this different? Because what I remember is that he had retreated so far from me that I had essentially become his babysitter while he lay around in bed moaning about how I made him break his glasses and ruined our entire spring break vacation. That's what *I* remember. So is this projection? Does he really believe this ___? I know that no pancake is too flat to have two sides but seriously... .he gave me EVERYTHING knowing that *I* wasn't ready? *I* wasn't committed to HIM? REALLY?

I feel like I'm losing my damn mind. I was rereading in the hopes of reminding myself why I should not be missing him and I'm left all twisted around and wondering how our views could possibly be so opposite. Why am I back to questioning MY reality? When I first got these texts they pissed me off. Now they're just making me question myself.

This is gaslighting right? Are they aware of it when they're doing it? Or is this really his reality?

[DaddyBear77]

Can our views of reality REALLY be this different?

Yes.
Next question?
;-)

In all seriousness, I wish I could also convey to you how "sane" my pwBPD seems when she tells me how unsupportive and unloving I am. There are dozens of people here who, from my posts alone, could tell you that's probably not true. I've got at least 4 therapists who have seen both of us and know a lot about our situation and will tell you in a heartbeat how these traits all sounds disordered, if not strictly BPD-diagnosis worthy.

But boy she can still REALLY convince me that I'm the one with the disorder. It's amazing.

 I see gaslighting for sure, and I think a big part of it is also projection.

How is everything else going? Are you still NC?

[BeagleGirl]

Oh Lala.  I wish this didn't have to be so painful for you.  I wish your heart could be easily persuaded of the facts and hold on to them.

You are right.  This is gas lighting.  This is someone trying desperately to get you to believe things that are not true.  I know you want to know if he is doing it on purpose.  The fact is, it doesn't really matter.  Even if he completely believes the things he's saying THEY ARE NOT REALITY.  They may be his "reality", or they may be words that he has learned get you to come back and do what he wants, or they could be maliciously planned tools of manipulation.  None of those options make him any more truthful or safe to be with.

You did not have a recorder going on the morning it all went to h3ll, but you did write a record of the event while it was fresh in your mind.  You didn't take a picture of the hole in the wall, but I bet that if you close your eyes, you can see it.  THOSE are the things that you need to be reviewing when you want to remember why you are enduring the pain of separation from him.  NOT his words.  NOT the things written by a man who was willing to say the things he said and punch a hole in the wall IN FRONT OF HIS SON.  

Some day you may be in a position to read what he says and look for nuggets of truth.  You may be able to review some of the accusations and find aspects of your behavior that you might want to consider addressing WITHIN A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS SAFE.  This is not the time and a relationship with him is not safe.  And I suspect that you would behave differently in a relationship that was safe.  Even if you didn't, there is NO excuse for his behavior.  You could have smeared feces in his face and it still wouldn't have justified the things he said and did.  

Hang in there.  I know that none of the "comfort" you can find in knowing that you are doing the right thing does not remove the longing and loneliness.  :)o your best to not inflict more pain looking his texts.  In fact, I HIGHLY recommend deleting them.  If you feel like you may want to read them at some point in the future, make a copy of them, put it on a password protected USB stick and have someone you trust set the password and promise not to give you the password for 6 months.  :)o the same with items that will remind you of him and your relationship.  Trash, shred, recycle, or lock away EVERYTHING.  If you can't bring yourself to do it, bring that trusted friend over and have them do it.  If I were not just a "virtual" friend, we could have a great cleansing/pity party.  It doesn't fix it, but removing those constant reminders gives you that many more moments of "sanity" where the pain isn't quite as intense.
               
BeagleGirl

[Lalathegreat]

Thanks Daddybear... .

I'm hanging in there, some moments it feels like I'm BARELY hanging in there, some moments I find myself carrying a physical tension that I immediately associate with "this was the time he would normally call" or "this would have been one of the evenings that I would have been there" and feel a tremendous amount of relief realizing that I won't have to take the call or survive the night without a fight.

He still texts with alarming regularity and this afternoon he called twice but didn't leave messages. The tone of the texts has calmed somewhat. I think he is fishing - wondering if he acts "normal" if I will answer or take a call. Once he mentioned how much his son misses me and that was really hard to hear. I'm sure he does. I know that I miss him dreadfully. I'm rather amazed honestly that he hasn't "given up". But then again, he isn't really the "giving up" type.

I reread the texts I quoted here and reminded myself that even though each accusation had a grain of truth - there were so many details missing. Like all that crap about asking how I'm doing and what he can do for me? He would absoutely BADGER me with those questions (in an extremely irritated tone I might add, not this "warmth" that he claims) and it nearly always turned into an argument about how he could tell I was upset or judging him and being passive aggressive by not telling him what I need. The stuff about how I only shared my stuff with him when we were running? When we started hanging out I was training for a marathon and he ran a ton of miles with me and that was the heart of the honeymoon period - I very fondly remember all of those runs we spent sharing our deepest darkest. Now that the honeymoon is long gone I desperately wish I had NEVER shared some of the things that have since been hurled back at me in anger. And no, I don't confide in him completely anymore because he always takes it as a criticism or is openly critical and judgemental of the way I handle things. The thing about not being committed? Well, you guys all know that I had been considering the future of this relationship for months... .but would I have been considering breaking up if he wasn't so push/pull, hot/cold, and rageful? Of course not! If he were the person he was in the honeymoon period I would have followed him off a cliff like a lemming!

But yeah... .I relate to what you said about feeling crazy. I actually had to sit down with the diagnostic criteria for all the major personality disorders and remind myself that I don't have any of them. Ho hum... .astonishingly low self esteem and an extraordinary capacity to tolerate abuse - but not a personality disorder. HA! hey, you have to laugh right?

Thanks for your reply. Good luck in YOUR current situation. Changing the dysfunctional BPD dynamic is such a challenging thing to do!

[Lalathegreat]

Thank you BG - your words hit the spot. Come on over... .I'll pour a glass of red and we can ___ it all out. You can show me how to do that USB stick thingie (I am notoriously bad with technology) and we can burn the rest of it! HA!

I already find myself looking for clues that can lead to self improvement, but you are absolutely right - none of it would be safe to work on within the context of a relationship with him. My codepency? Oh yeah - time to get on that. My quiet and passive nature? Yeah - might want to work on being somewhat more assertive. Opening up too quickly in a relationship particularly when a child is involved? Oh yeah, check! Won't make that mistake again... .

But am I this horrible witch who set out to make promises that I couldn't keep, break a child's heart, and destroy this poor desperate man who only wanted to give me everything he had? Yeah, I call BULL___.

You rock. Thank you for being here... .

[BeagleGirl]

Lala,
I can be here because someone was there for me when I needed them.  I had no idea how amazing some of my friends were until I ended my affair.  "A" was the first person I confessed to.  She came over with food (I hadn't been able to eat anywhere near enough to sustain me for almost a week) and forgiveness.  She didn't sugar coat or justify what I did.  She reflected the truth of what I had done and why leaving was the right thing.  She also sat there as I handed over each momento that I couldn't bring myself to destroy.  She listened to me as I shared with her why each thing was so special and told her "our story".  She took all the things away that night and told me she would keep them safe until I called her and told her to get rid of them.  She stayed true to that promise.  She has also been my accountability partner.  I know that I can be honest with her, even when my thoughts and feelings are shameful to me.  She's shown that she will love me and support me in doing the right thing.  She can confront me without judging.

From that day on, she has been the person I knew I could call for ANYTHING.  We laugh about the fact that we are each other's bail buddies. If I were ever arrested, she would be my "one call" and we both have the funds, not EXACTLY set aside, for bail. 

I am hoping that you have or will discover someone in your life who can be that for you.  We are definitely here to listen with compassion and support you.

BG

[enlighten me]

In some cases it could be gaslighting but in my experience I believe that it is more to do with their perspective of reality at that time. As BPD is emotion based then depending on how they are feeling their reality will vary. If they are feeling insecure then their reality will be that you don't care or don't do enough for them.

I believe we all do this to some extent. If we are feeling down then we don't always notice the good things happening or we dull them down. Take our own behaviour and magnify it and it may give some insight into BPD behaviour.

[Grey Kitty]

First, I really don't like the term gaslighting. It was defined in a movie where a guy was intentionally tricking his wife, telling her that her memory of the past was wrong with the goal of making her think she is crazy.

What your bf is doing is driving you crazy.

He is telling you that things didn't happen the way you remembered.

He's not intentionally trying to make you think you are crazy. That isn't a thing people do, or at least it isn't the reason they do things like that. (Reasons include stuff like projection, and the feelings=facts thing where a pwBPD feels a certain way today, and modifies all facts, past, present, and future to support those feelings... .)


Intentional or not, your move is the same: Hold close to your reality. Re-read your journals or your postings about events right after they happened, and compare that to what he just said. Write in a journal today, confirming that he just tried to change history.

What do I tell my son when he asks for you?"

Ugh. That's where you don't enable. HE threw you out. His son WAS THERE WHEN HE DID IT. Those were his actions. If his son asks about it, that is a natural consequence of his action. You don't protect him from those consequences. If he didn't want to risk being questioned about your disappearance by his son, he shouldn't have kicked you out!

He made this mess. It is his.

Besides... .his son grew up with him. His son thinks this circus with the flying monkeys and this kind of crap from his dad is normal; he hasn't lived in a different way ever. His son probably knows better than to ask... .

And yes, that is heartbreaking too.

[formflier]

I also don't like "gaslight".  

I believe "projection" is better.  Especially when you remember that it is projecting the "emotion of the moment".

Those "moments" will change will bewildering speed... .bewildering... .

Sometimes they honestly don't remember... .sometimes there is so much shame they cover it up... .perhaps lie... .

Please have empathy that in that moment... .it is very likely that it was meant in an "honest" way.

Lala,

Can I be so bold to give you an assignment?  I challenge you to go through the OP and highlight all the places where he likely projected... .or did mindreading.

It is much more important that we train you to recognize these "gateways to emotional abuse" so that in the future (in any relationship)... .you notice these right away.  

Hang in there... .I'm sure this is hard.  You are inspiring others with your strong stand for YOU!

FF

[asiyah93]

"Why were you around me if I was so crummy?"

Wow THIS IS MY LIFE. Lala, I'm sorry. I completely understand what you're going through. My ex always throws my depression in my face. "Oh I had to put up with it!" and in his current rage episode he did just that. I simply ignored it. I've asked him too many times that if I were so bad, why did he continue to keep me around? Answers vary. Maybe he's gaslighting you, maybe he's expressing how he truly feels, maybe a bit of both, but as you said in your "pity party" (it is NOT a pity party) you deserve better. He obviously doesn't sound supportive and you need support.

[Lalathegreat]

Happy to work on that when I'm not mobile FF! Im sure it will be illuminating... .

[Lalathegreat]

Welcome to my butt ass hurt, totally not productive, why does this still hurt so much pity party of the day. I'm aware that I should be spending my time ANY OTHER WAY.

But I'm reading pwBPD's greatest hits from the day hell broke loose.

"What is your problem? Seriously. I was trying to be warm to you. To make you feel loved and you have zero interest in warmth and closeness. I truly don't understand. You are constantly dissatisfied but do not participate in my attempts to make things better. I don't get it.

What part of "how are you?", "what do you need?", "what can I do?" does not come across as honest and caring?

What is it that you want? Why do you demand things of me when I constantly paint to you the picture of my life?

I am at such a loss. I do not understand any of it. I must be stupid.

What part of "I'm sick" is unclear to you? What part of sharing how you feel and what you desire openly and candidly is bad?

I also don't understand how you do not accept me asking those questions and wanting answers as clear signs of caring and closeness?

I really don't understand what went down. I really do not understand anything, really. Your actions only make sense coming from a deeply unsatisfied person. Why were you around me if I was so crummy?

You never committed to me. You got into my son's life knowing that you were not going to be committed to it. I do not understand. and I'm stupid for hoping I will get answers from you.

You are the opposite of supportive, I do not understand why I did not deserve better. Why do you always hide what you have to say? If I didn't want to hear it I would not ask.

I'm a fool. I spent so much money, time, effort, energy, in you knowing you were not ready and that I was walking into my doom. I have nothing. Absolutely nothing. But you don't care so I should stop.

You are just a bunch of promises. I was not sufficently important to you to make good on those promises. I really wish I understaood what I did to you to deserve the attitude you had since Friday. If you ever find out, please share.

What do I tell my son when he asks for you?"

Remember, this is all after he booted me from his apartment without so much as the dignity of a paper bag to carry my ___ across the parking lot in. After he put his fist through a wall after threatening to put it through my face. And yet... .

WHY DOES THIS SOUND REASONABLE TO ME? He doesn't seem mad... .bewildered maybe. Confused.

EXCEPT IT'S NOT HOW I REMEMBER THINGS! Can our views of reality REALLY be this different? Because what I remember is that he had retreated so far from me that I had essentially become his babysitter while he lay around in bed moaning about how I made him break his glasses and ruined our entire spring break vacation. That's what *I* remember. So is this projection? Does he really believe this ___? I know that no pancake is too flat to have two sides but seriously... .he gave me EVERYTHING knowing that *I* wasn't ready? *I* wasn't committed to HIM? REALLY?

I feel like I'm losing my damn mind. I was rereading in the hopes of reminding myself why I should not be missing him and I'm left all twisted around and wondering how our views could possibly be so opposite. Why am I back to questioning MY reality? When I first got these texts they pissed me off. Now they're just making me question myself.

This is gaslighting right? Are they aware of it when they're doing it? Or is this really his reality?

[Lalathegreat]

"What is your problem? Seriously. I was trying to be warm to you. To make you feel loved and you have zero interest in warmth and closeness. I truly don't understand. You are constantly dissatisfied but do not participate in my attempts to make things better. I don't get it.   (NOPE NOPE NOPE! I call Bull on this. When he sat down and asked me what was going on he sounded extremely frustrated. He was agitated. And we have been here before. If I'm unable to answer the question the way he wants he begins to "interpret" my feelings and it has historically ended in a circular argument complete with accusations of how passive aggressive I am.)

What part of "how are you?", "what do you need?", "what can I do?" does not come across as honest and caring? (See above)

What is it that you want? Why do you demand things of me when I constantly paint to you the picture of my life? (Projection - He frequently mentions that I place "demands" on him, but he is THE MOST DEMANDING person I have ever known. And as a bonus, he is QUIETLY demanding. He expects unspoken stuff and then rages later if he doesn't get it.)

I am at such a loss. I do not understand any of it. I must be stupid. (I think he probably genuinely means this)

What part of "I'm sick" is unclear to you? What part of sharing how you feel and what you desire openly and candidly is bad? (I don't know if this is projection or mindreading, but I do know it's BULL___. What he fails to see is that my hands are completely tied. If I say ANYTHING that could be percieved as critical he attacks and defends himself. If I attempt to disagree with anything HE says about how I'm thinking or feeling I get caught in the endless JADE loop. If I meet anything with frustration he gets MORE frustrated. If I intentionally stay calm and collected he accuses me of being cold. It's not that he doesn't think he wants communication, it's that he has made it almost impossible.)

I also don't understand how you do not accept me asking those questions and wanting answers as clear signs of caring and closeness? (He might believe this, but see above. He does not create CLOSENESS in these discussions. BULL)

I really don't understand what went down. I really do not understand anything, really. Your actions only make sense coming from a deeply unsatisfied person. Why were you around me if I was so crummy?
(MINDREADING!)

You never committed to me. You got into my son's life knowing that you were not going to be committed to it. I do not understand. and I'm stupid for hoping I will get answers from you. (This is more mindreading and possibly projection as well? I sacrificed tremendously trying to save this relationship but he sees NONE of it. He needed to see me as the one trying to leave in order to justify HIS actions.)

You are the opposite of supportive, I do not understand why I did not deserve better. Why do you always hide what you have to say? If I didn't want to hear it I would not ask. (Projection? Maybe he knows on some level that HE has failed to be supportive? That HE knows I deserve better? It certainly makes sense that way... .)

I'm a fool. I spent so much money, time, effort, energy, in you knowing you were not ready and that I was walking into my doom. I have nothing. Absolutely nothing. But you don't care so I should stop.
(Mindreading - again with the accusation that this relationship was my idea and that I somehow pushed him into it. I still don't remember the conversation where we determined to move from friends to exclusive lovers. What I remember is that there were suddenly and awful lot of EXPECTATIONS on his part that I was failing to meet.)

You are just a bunch of promises. I was not sufficently important to you to make good on those promises. I really wish I understaood what I did to you to deserve the attitude you had since Friday. If you ever find out, please share. (Mind reading. I still don't know what I was doing that made him think I had "an attitude". And who is he to decide whether or not I think he is "important" or not as it pertains to these things.)

What do I tell my son when he asks for you?" (It's not really projection or mindreading but it sure as hell is an attempt to make ME feel guilty for HIS actions. I wish I had said: "You should have thought about that before you kicked me out of your house without so much as the dignity of a paper bag in which to carry my belongings." BOOYAH! Why do I think of that stuff AFTER THE FACT... .Oh right, in this instance I was holding tight to NC. )

OK FF... .my long overdue homework.