My partner always feels like I'm telling them they're wrong

[starfox]

What an interesting couple of days. My uBPD partner has been going through a LOT of stress with work--they are changing jobs, thank god to a more stable structured routine environment, though this inbetween phase where things are still a little up in the air  is definitely weighing on them and they are more sensitivr than usual. I am also having a busy and stressful time at work for my own reasons.  

The last two days they have been kind of distant and not affectionate. A few small hurts have come up that i have addressed and tried to hear them on while also not getting sucked into any drama.

But they said there was a certain thing bothering them, that I asked to talk about a few times, which they refused to talk about so I said I'd like to listen when they are ready and do what we can to resolve it. We agreed to talk today. I had a long workday and a heavy personal convo with a friend so I am tired. Today was the first day all week where we were able to have our usual silly text banter all day even though I know something is bothering them, and that's huge as its either very all or nothing, and I noted this and praised them for it earlier.

We are finally sitting together at home talking about not much. Partner points to a folding table and says they want to bring it to my next soccer game and put snacks and stuff on it. I say thats really nice but they don't have to, even just bringing oranges for half time would be nice.

This is the thing that has been bothering them for days. They heard me say that and what they heard was me saying they were wrong. Its so hard for me to remember that things I say to them can be misconstrued so easily as attacks or negative statements and they take it super personally and then start feeling like I'm telling them they're a bad person.

Am I wrong? Was that mean? I can't think of anyone else in my life who I could have possibly said that to who wouls have taken it so terribly.

The other night it apparently also bothered them when we went out to eat they wanted to sit next to me and I said sitting across from each other was fine. They were sullen and withdrawn all dinner and I chalked it up to work stress and didnt possibly connect it to that. But theyve been mulling over it for days.

I cried. I got so frustrated feeling like I have to watch every thing that comes out of my mouth, and the responsibilty is all on me to make sure its not somethingthat could possibly be taken as a negative. Its draining and its unfair.

I tried validating, saying I understand why they might perceive it that way. I wish I left it at that. I even said I would try harder to think about what I say before I say it. But I want so badly for them to recognize how much their own perception of what I say plays into what happens and when I try to bring that up they refuse to take any responsibility for it. They "dont want to hear it" because "thats not important." I'm wrong and this is my fault. How ironic is that... .

They also love to say "Its like if you step on my foot then tell me why I'm wrong for having my foot there." Its not like that. Its completely different. I have compassion that this is their reality and they cant grasp the difference and take responsibilty for their reactions but I am tired.

We kept talking and it got to a point where they started talking over me, at which point I said I wanted to resolve it but if we cant do that without talking over each other then i would need to take a break. Retaliating, they got up and left to run an errand. While I am temporarily relieved, I also dont know what to do to make this better.

I'm done taking responsibility for how they feel. I would not be getting in this argument with a sane person. I get so frustrated with how unnecessary some of our "issues" are but they all come back to me needing to pre-emptively change  my behavior.

Advice very welcome, I also just needed to vent. I'm so tired today.

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[starfox]

Went out while they were out. Made sure to let them know what I was doing so there wouldnt be issue with that. Got back to them at home.

"I brought up something that you do that bothers me. You say things that I perceive negatively and I'm asking you to change that, is that so unreasonable? I don't need to be told what I'm doing wrong, your reaction to my request made it completely over the top and way worse."

I wish they could see their own part of the solution that they stated here--"You say things that I perceive negatively"

I hope my partner can take responsibility for their own feelings one day. I hope I'm around to see it and support it. I hope I can be as strong as I think I am.

[waverider]

It is your partners feeling of being over the top/inappropriate, this is their thoughts. eg the food for the sports, they had what they thought was a good idea to show how caring they were. once you point out it is unnecessary you have made them feel like THEY are being inappropriate, you have potentially made them feel foolish, this is what causes the disappointment so they project that feeling of "getting it wrong" as to be your opinion not theirs.

Maybe " I wasn't expecting you to put yourself that much but if that is what you would like to do that, it would be nice and appreciated".

Bottom line is generous gestures are not about anyone else they are about their own need to be seen to be generous. The act itself is not even important, it is simply a chance to make a gesture being belittled. They feel like they failed.

Sometimes it helps if you say something like "thats really nice of you, how about doing XYZ instead as that is something I really need help with". Its about not blocking their need to make a grand gesture.

[smart_storm26]

Wow OP, I am in the same position with my wife as you are. And this irritates the hell out of me. I say things normally and don't mean to hurt her or belittle her at all. But by some extremely flawed logic, she takes it that I am trying to hurt or belittle her. No normal person would think that way if I would have had this conversion with them. And after she feels that way, its all downhill because feelings are truth to her. This feels very challenging to me.

[jhkbuzz]

"We are finally sitting together at home talking about not much. Partner points to a folding table and says they want to bring it to my next soccer game and put snacks and stuff on it. I say that's really nice but they don't have to, even just bringing oranges for half time would be nice.

This is the thing that has been bothering them for days. They heard me say that and what they heard was me saying they were wrong. Its so hard for me to remember that things I say to them can be misconstrued so easily as attacks or negative statements and they take it super personally and then start feeling like I'm telling them they're a bad person.

Am I wrong? Was that mean? I can't think of anyone else in my life who I could have possibly said that to who would have taken it so terribly.

The other night it apparently also bothered them when we went out to eat they wanted to sit next to me and I said sitting across from each other was fine. They were sullen and withdrawn all dinner and I chalked it up to work stress and didnt possibly connect it to that. But they've been mulling over it for days.

I cried. I got so frustrated feeling like I have to watch every thing that comes out of my mouth, and the responsibility is all on me to make sure its not something that could possibly be taken as a negative. Its draining and its unfair."

Ohmigosh, I don't know that I have a ton of advice for you here, but you brought back an awful lot of memories for me. The hypersensitivity, the "mulling it over for days" (years?) when I was clueless that something was wrong... .wow. Even the degree to which I questioned myself... .am I mean? Am I somehow torturing this person that I love? Is it all me? It made me cry on more than one occasion too; my frustration was so thick I could have cut it with a knife.  I never figured out how to adequately respond/soothe/not trigger her hypersensitivity. And I became exhausted from trying.

Here's the difference, though: I figured out the BPD after we broke up, and you're still in it. If I was still in it, I think I would remember that, emotionally, my partner was pretty child-like. Couldn't soothe herself; had an over-the-top desire to please, etc. etc. This was really confusing for me (when I was in it) because my partner, like yours, was an adult who was a successful professional - and who only exhibited these childlike behaviors at home. (We worked together for several years so I know this to be a fact). But if I was still in it I think I would still try to remember that, emotionally, she is much more childlike and, in much the same way you have to try to be encouraging and not crush a child's spirit, I would try to be encouraging and choose my words carefully (much like waverider said).

No guarantee that it will work, but maybe worth a try?

[starfox]

once you point out it is unnecessary you have made them feel like THEY are being inappropriate, you have potentially made them feel foolish, this is what causes the disappointment so they project that feeling of "getting it wrong" as to be your opinion not theirs.


Bottom line is generous gestures are not about anyone else they are about their own need to be seen to be generous. The act itself is not even important, it is simply a chance to make a gesture being belittled. They feel like they failed.

Its about not blocking their need to make a grand gesture.

Solid advice and perspective, thank you. I understand it and it can be so difficult in the moment to remember it, or to recognize what those things are before I start to say something.

I also struggle with it because throughout the decade of my own therapy I learned to take responsibility for the way I feel... .that no one else could "make" me feel anything, etc. It was a big game changer for me and it's hard to feel like a fight isn't going to stop unless I agree to take responsibility for the way my partner feels.

My quote at the end of my 2nd post on this thread "I don't need to be told what I'm doing wrong" is my partners response to my mere suggestion that we work collaboratively on a solution to this and maybe they try to give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not telling them they're wrong. Nope. Saying that is also me invalidating and telling them they're wrong. And then it's back to square one

[Tattered Heart]

My H does this also. When I try to let him know about something bothering me or just a slight correction, done in a very polite and kind way, it can cause a huge fight. Just yesterday I left a glass out near the sink. He broke it accidentally and when I got home from work, he blamed me for putting the cup in the wrong place. I didn't respond well and told him it was his fault for not paying attention and we fought over it all evening and into this morning.

One thing that happens with a pwBPD is they have an intense fear of rejection. When someone corrections them or sees their flaws, they may have an immediate fear response that tells them: "Oh no! They are going to leave me!" Instead of being able to see that someone will not leave them just because they make a mistake they instead respond by lashing out at the person they think will leave them in order to protect themselves. In a way they cause the rejection they feel. By lashing out they cause the person they lash out at to reject them in some way.

This is what makes it difficult for us nons to express ourselves in our relationship. It's not wrong for us to share that something is bothering us. WE just have to find a new way to do it, using lots of validation while doing it.

[isilme]

This may sound weird, but here's my reaction to "I want to bring snacks!"

"Ok.  That would be nice".  And knowing how BPD works, I know not much else would actually come of it as a pwBPD will often make statements of WANTING to do something, but will never get around to doing it.  I would realize I would be the one most likely actually bringing snacks, which might amount to oranges at half time.  So, nothing changed here, except the response.  Let them make their emotional gestures if it costs us nothing.  Since emotions are key, not necessarily actions or follow through, let them make their proclamations, if it's a good idea (knowing they will prolly never actually do it) validate the idea/emotion, and leave it.  Talking privately to me, H can make comments about how he'd like to rip out the bathroom tile and redo it himself all he wants.  I think it would be nice to have new tile and can agree new tile would be nice.  I only worry if he wants to go to Lowes and I need to put the breaks on for real - like, let's do this next year, by a professional to save us stress, etc. 

I think you have to kinda of pick and choose battles, and so I perform mental triage.  If H is committing himself to something, and I will need to save the day by fulfilling a commitment that he may just drop the ball on, I have to have a say about the hows and whens.

If he is making a non-committal comment to just me, that no one else has heard, about something he may or may not do, I can validate that the idea and intent is good.  And he's happy, cuz he got what he wanted with nothing more than his statement seeking approval/non-rejection. 

Restaurant seating.  H has gotten upset by this too.  He is inconsistent, and can't decide if we should be side by side, across, who should face the door, and it he is holding the chair for me to sit in, or holding his own chair waiting for me to sit down.  He spent one dinner angry that I made him sit with his back to the majority of people because I could not read his mind.  I have since learned he likes to face the largest number of people.  He feels uncomfortable with his back to them.  He prefers to sit across from me when alone, and side by side when with others. 

Is there any reason moving to sit by your partner was unacceptable for you?  This is not a BPD question, but one where in any relationship you may need to placate your partner in simple ways.  The BPD came in by being upset for days about it.

You say "I said sitting across from each other was fine".  This IS a rejection of the invitation to sit closer.  This does not excuse the BPD anger and days of being upset about it, but it is what it is. 

"Come sit by me."
"No, I'm fine here." (away from you, leave me alone, I don't want to be closer to you, you're a jerk for bothering me about moving). 

"Come sit by me" 
"I'd like to sit here.  I am comfortable here, the vent is blowing there/I don't like my back to XYZ/I can see you better to talk."  (All of these state a reason OTHER than "I don't like you" or "You are wrong I am right." 

They have impaired empathy.  They think that the way THEY read a situation is how YOU also read it.  The idea you may really want to save them effort from bringing snacks does not occur to them, and sounds like a lie after their mind is made up.  The idea you don't want to sit by them is a rejection of them personally, and has nothing to do with YOUR physical comfort in a certain chair, proximity while eating, view while eating, whatever.  Knowing that tehy are emotionally impaired and WE have to be more on our game at times (it's impossible all the time), and to sift through what tehy say, what they mean, and how they feel about it all is the challenge.

[isilme]

Just yesterday I left a glass out near the sink. He broke it accidentally and when I got home from work, he blamed me for putting the cup in the wrong place. I didn't respond well and told him it was his fault for not paying attention and we fought over it all evening and into this morning.

Yeah.  Have had this too.  When possible, I deadpan an "Okay." and try to move on.  Or I might ask "where does a dirty glass go except by the sink" (we do not have a dishwasher, except me, I am the dishwasher) if I am in a bad mood and see no exit from the blame.  He'd probably try to yell about there being any dirty dishes at all, but since he never helps with them, he gets even more flustered as he knows we both work the same hours but I do an unequal amount of the chores so he has to shut up eventually.  There is no high ground for him when yelling about chores. 

I think reactions are all key here.  Which sucks, because I often feel I need to be Mr. Spock and refrain from any knee jerk comments I may WANT to make, and be the bigger person, the adult, yadda yadda.  But that's life with a pwBPD - they are handicapped emotionally.  The sides are not fairly set up  -I have stronger coping skills, he has stronger feelings of rage that come out because of his lack of coping skills. 

[starfox]

This may sound weird, but here's my reaction to "I want to bring snacks!"

"Ok.  That would be nice".  And knowing how BPD works, I know not much else would actually come of it as a pwBPD will often make statements of WANTING to do something, but will never get around to doing it. 

My partner with uBPD is actually REALLY GOOD at following through on the things they say they are going to do in that regard. So if they wanted to bring an entire table of snacks it was probably going to happen. That said, that's actually completely fine with me. It's their $ and time (we live together but do not share finances, we both make about the same amount and have similar spending/saving habits and tend to be really even about taking turns buying meals or splitting dining out and grocery bills. My partner does impulsively buy stuff, but again, not my $, and they are actually surprisingly financially balanced, for all I've read about BPDs and that realm).

This is helpful though. When I said "You don't have to" I meant "Oh you don't have to go through all of that trouble" and when my partner hears "You don't have to" its like they're hearing "Why would you even suggest such a stupid idea, it's bad and wrong just like you are." And of course, no explaining can resolve that.

I just blurted it out without thinking and will have to work/try to be more validating about these types of things. And pick the battles

Is there any reason moving to sit by your partner was unacceptable for you?  This is not a BPD question, but one where in any relationship you may need to placate your partner in simple ways.  The BPD came in by being upset for days about it.

You say "I said sitting across from each other was fine".  This IS a rejection of the invitation to sit closer.  This does not excuse the BPD anger and days of being upset about it, but it is what it is. 

"Come sit by me."
"No, I'm fine here." (away from you, leave me alone, I don't want to be closer to you, you're a jerk for bothering me about moving). 

"Come sit by me" 
"I'd like to sit here.  I am comfortable here, the vent is blowing there/I don't like my back to XYZ/I can see you better to talk."  (All of these state a reason OTHER than "I don't like you" or "You are wrong I am right." 

I appreciate you laying out the difference here! This makes it easier to understand/see in an example from my own experience. Thank you.

My partner is really, really consistent about wanting to sit next to each other. If there is any chance we can, they want to. Which I actually really like and am 100% fine with most of the time! This particular restaurant though, the table for two was tiny, with not a lot of space between the next table, and if they had sat perpendicular to me at the table it just would have been pretty cramped. I don't know how to explain that one. They brought it up in the fight we had yesterday and assumed my reason for not wanting to do it was judgement from other people or the server or whoever. It was more out of courtesy to other people, but ok. I didn't even touch that one. It's happened one other time at a tiny restaurant where it would have been inconvenient to other people and IIRC that reason was actually OK so I'll try to remember it.

They have impaired empathy.  They think that the way THEY read a situation is how YOU also read it.  The idea you may really want to save them effort from bringing snacks does not occur to them, and sounds like a lie after their mind is made up.  The idea you don't want to sit by them is a rejection of them personally, and has nothing to do with YOUR physical comfort in a certain chair, proximity while eating, view while eating, whatever.  Knowing that tehy are emotionally impaired and WE have to be more on our game at times (it's impossible all the time), and to sift through what tehy say, what they mean, and how they feel about it all is the challenge.

All of this was amazing and spot on! It can be so challenging to be with someone who doesn't understand that I'm my own person with my own needs, who is almost never trying to say "YOU'RE WRONG" and what feels like rejection to them might just be me taking care of my own need or actually trying to help them--and that that doesn't matter to them as much/can't be seen by them due to their impaired empathy. Ironically, my partner asks me for empathy constantly, as it's my lack of empathy that is the real problem here 

[starfox]

I think reactions are all key here.  Which sucks, because I often feel I need to be Mr. Spock and refrain from any knee jerk comments I may WANT to make, and be the bigger person, the adult, yadda yadda.  But that's life with a pwBPD - they are handicapped emotionally.  The sides are not fairly set up  -I have stronger coping skills, he has stronger feelings of rage that come out because of his lack of coping skills.  

Spot. on.

My partner "wants to change" because they realize certain things aren't working in their life, but doesn't quite make the connection yet that they need to change THEIR outlook and coping skills. In fact, I am constantly told my reactions need to change Which is not something I am ever allowed to even kind of suggest to my partner. We see a counselor together (and sometimes separate) and I'm hoping she can help coax them towards that direction and help them take responsibility for their own stuff.

I really appreciate being to connect with all of you on here and vent a little and gain some helpful advice and other perspectives and experiences. Even without a diagnosis, so much of what is on this website/board really fits my partner to a T and even though it's incredibly difficult in the moments it helps a little bit to feel less alone and isolated in the struggle.  

[starfox]

Well I really messed up last night.  

After work I came home, partner dumped a bunch of their stresses out about whats going on in their life then wanted to talk about this still unresolved issue.

It took a lot of exhausting talking but I agreed to working on responding to my partner's statements with more intentionally validating language. I also agreed to take responsibility for MY PART of the failure in communication. This was tricky as my partner kept trying to drive home that the failure here was my communication, and made no mention of the part of it was their perception. They really surprised me at the end of the convo by saying they will work on not finding criticism in my statements. I'm not sure if they meant this or said it bc I asked for it before and they thought it was what I wanted to hear. I did want to hear it.

 The end of the convo also almost got derailed when I repeated what I agreed to (for the 3rd or 4th time, bc this is what my partner needs) and started to say "but" nope huge mistake. They snapped at me so quickly "There's no room for that" "I dont need to hear you tell me my part of it, you need to give me the benefit of the doubt that I know and I'll say it" "Hearing you try to explain what you meant by something completely invalidates anything you said before it." etc etc. Got back on track. I went to clear my mind, came back, rest of afternoon was fine.

We were sitting together on the front porch later, on our phones. I will be the first person to admit that I have a problem with technology, in that i use it too much. We were both on our phones, just sitting, and it was nice. Both reading things on our phones. Partner tried to share something with me while I was reading. I didn't engage enough. I stopped what I was doing. They showed me a picture and I looked at it and expressed interest, and they pulled their phone away, starting to say things in a mocking way (as if it were me saying them) "Oh is that photo on instagram? If its not on instagram I dont want to look at it. Instagram is so much more interesting than everything else in the world. Sorry I'm just so busy over here getting keys" (keys in ref to a game I like to play)

Heres where I messed up big time.

Me: You know I feel like sometimes, and right now you say mocking things like that to me and it's intentionally mean and hurtful. I don't really like it.
Partner: Oh you mean like all of the hurtful things you always say to me (referring to all the stuff I brought up in this original post).

Partner then tried to explain what their intention was, how they were just trying to use humor to highlight an uncomfortable topic, etc, basically ignoring that I was hurt by something they said and trying to explain their intention so I could give them the benefit of the doubt... .aka every single thing I'm NOT allowed to do. And I just lost it. I cut them off in the middle of them explaining what they meant by it to basically throw back all of their own ridiculousness in their face.

Me: I'm sorry, I just need to have my feelings validated first. I don't want to hear how I need to perceive it differently. There's no room for that. If you try to explain what you actually meant before acknowledging my feelings I just can't hear it.

They LOST it. Got up off the porch, pointed a finger in my face, screamed "That was retaliatory and I'm not going to stand for it I'm sleeping on the couch"

Front door slammed, shook the whole house.

I KNOW that was wrong. I know it was messed up on my part. I know I have to be the bigger person, emotionally. Yesterday I just felt so tired of the complete lack of reciprocity in those moments and this dumb part of my brain just wanted my partner to feel how frustrating it is to be on the receiving end of those kind of statements. And they're not wrong, it was pretty retaliatory. But now I'm still the bad one and its another reason to add to the pile of reasons why all our relationship problems are my fault. I have mentioned before that i have tended to push people away, and this will be added to that pile of instances and used against me.

We're not really talking at all today. Partner has plans all day and will leave early tomorrow to go camping. I'm relieved on one level  but I'm also not sure what to do.

[waverider]

Me: I'm sorry, I just need to have my feelings validated first.

This is the issue. it is purely magical thinking. Any validation you receive will not come from deep down and so will not have substantial value. It would said for effect in the moment, even if they think they feel it.

We all want this, it is human nature unless you are a sociopath, but are starved of it in a BPD relationship The problem is we get so wrapped up in the pwBPDs issues and trying to keep the peace we loose sight of it. The problem is it simmers under the surface and we end up blurting it out suddenly, often in a disguised way as we tip toe around it.

Once you can find validation from a different source, even spending time here goes a long way, it turns the the pressure valve down somewhat making other coping tools much smoother.

pwBPD know when you are nudging the limit of your patience, and they will nudge you over it simply to validate and prove their own suspicions. At this point they will take advantage of this vulnerability and project all their issues onto you, leaving themselves victims of your uncaring behavior. Nothing learned so nothing changes. All that was said hasn't had any effect. It has all been negated

[starfox]

pwBPD know when you are nudging the limit of your patience, and they will nudge you over it simply to validate and prove their own suspicions. At this point they will take advantage of this vulnerability and project all their issues onto you, leaving themselves victims of your uncaring behavior. Nothing learned so nothing changes. All that was said hasn't had any effect. It has all been negated

Thank you for putting into words a feeling/observation I have had. ut struggled to connect words with.

I said what I did sarcastically to them, knowing full well that it wasn't an option. But deep down of course I do want that, which is probably why I said it, however poorly.

I've been on the verge of tears all day no matter where I've been or what I'm doing. At the bank, getting coffee, getting a meal, tending the garden, I even got a massage and almost burst into tears a few times.

Partner has not contacted me all day, except to respond to my text suggestion that we maybe turn their scheduled therapy session into one for both of us. Their reaponse was I can go alone as they "aren't feeling it."

I feel stuck. Hoping some more reading on here will help and maybe some more self-care.

[waverider]

Partners of pwBPD often suffer symptoms of Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD). It is worth looking into in order to help you realign why you struggle to shake the stressful feelings.

Mostly it is because it is not a single issue to get over, it is an ongoing pattern of behaviour. This is the reason BPD is hard to address, as there are few singular tangible issues to straighten out. So much smoke you can't see the fire to fight it. Eventually you develop a paranoia of smoke, feeling silly and helpless at the same time

[starfox]

Thanks for pointing me in that direction--I will definitely check it out. I've realized how important self-care is in this situation especially. I am kind of happy that "our" therapist has become "my" therapist due to my SO now refusing to attend therapy, as she has seen our relationship dynamic firsthand in therapy. I brought up to her that I've been reading all about BPD and it's been incredibly helpful in relating to my partner. She had some helpful advice around boundary setting and shifting the dynamic today. It was validating/a relief to talk to someone about this who also knows my SO. We'll see what this next week brings... .