(Never) ending recycle pattern

[onelittleladybug]

My pwBPD dumped me, yet again, over the weekend. Background: We were getting close again after being apart for 8 weeks (Im saying he was giving me a silent treatment because NC isnt possible in our case as we live next to each other). We had been in some sort of friendship for months, never not romantic but not having sex. Sleeping in tight embrace many times a week. Last week we got intimate again, we have been rebuilding and it had mostly been going well although of course some drama. There was a night when I apparently accidentally ate his hamburger and everything went nuts, there was another when he asked me to pick up bacon and eggs from the store for him and I misunderstood and thought he was asking me to cook bacon and eggs that night and I said I didnt have time for special requests that night but could do in 2 days (he was being offered what was on the menu in my house) and all went nuts. The day after he couldnt actually remember what happened, which Im not sure was because of him dysregulating or drinking (or both). I dealt with it all I think mostly by being patient. After night of being intimate I stopped by his house to ask if he wanted company later. He hasnt been answering his texts and Im not sure if he is actually checking his phone so I started coming by and he seemed to like that, I was getting a vague message that he was onboard with not relying on text to communicate (something Ive been trying to get across our entire 8 month relationship but attempts have been futile so far). Back to events: The night after being intimate I didnt get an answer about when I should come over so I just knocked. He came to door but didnt open, didnt want company just yet. Let me clarify I am very big on getting alone time and space and this is no big deal to me. I was excited to spend time with him because circumstances in my life made it so that I didnt have enough time to give to the r/s and the obstruction had been lifted the day before and I finally have lots of time. But this could have waited a couple hrs or a night. Its not a big deal for me. However I didnt like how he was acting, his body language, his tone of voice made me feel rejected. He sounded harsh, cold, rushed and dismissive. So when he texted me some info about a band we both like I sent this back:

Me: Took a chance. Reached out. Got hand slapped. Ttys when Ive recovered. Its not the end it never is.
Him: Huh?
Me: It just feels like I keep getting thrown out of your house one way or another. Whatever I really dont want us to get into anything. Last night was lovely. Two steps forward. Today feels like one step back. But still progress. Can we leave it at that for now? As an alternative to more steps backwards.
Me: Very exciting re. AF
Him: Definitely leaving it.
Me: Ok I dont know how to interpret that answer so I wont. I assume thats positive although not sure.

Silence... .

AF is the band btw, and I have been making statements about choosing to take something as a positive when in doubt unless set straight.

The next thing that happened was I fell asleep at 8 pm. Not my usual time nor his but I was very tired from a long period of insomnia and extreme stress. I wake up a couple hrs later and text him to remind him that my new roommate is moving in the next day. He replies:

"Youve made me feel bad because I wanted space and left me lonely again. You literally made me feel bad directly from me wanting simple space, d*** move [ladybug].
Me: Call or come over to talk please.
Him: Im moving on, you're not going to affect my day anymore, only texted you to tell you how ridiculous.
Me: Im sorry you are upset. I was too. I hope we can resolve it when youre ready to talk.
Him: I wasnt upset. When someone acts like a child you cant get mad, its kids ___. I was what the heck.
Me: I want you to ge the space you need. I dont want you to feel bad about needing it and I dont want you to feel lonely. Can you please put yourself in my shoes and imagine how it would feel if I wouldnt open the door for you. Can you see how all of this would have felt better for both of us if simply saying "hey I will check on you later, kinda busy now". My text message asking you if I should come over was unanswered.
Him: I dont open the door because the dog would run out. Duh.
Me: Thats not how you always answer your door.
Him: Take two sniffs of your leg and run. Why you think I chain his a** when he goes out back?
Him: It is when I have an excited dog about to run loose. You dont get to judge how I open a door. All the sudden youre entitled to a perfect drama show. Shove it up your a** thank you.
Me: You can still be welcoming. Or come outside yourself. Youve told me many times how bad it feels for you to be blocked. Its the same thing for me about getting kicked out of your house. I feel like I cant know or trust when Im welcome and when not.
Me: Lets continue this convo when you can do without this kind of talk.
Him: Someone knocks at my door, and I have a responsibility, is gonna get the backside of how i handle it. Theres no kicking out of houses, and you remain the only person who ever thought that getting kicked out of a house wasnt your fault . Lets not continue any conversation, ever. You're out of your mind with expectations. I'll talk straight up every time, no time for kiddos.
Him: You're done here.
Me: OK thanks for telling me where I stand. Good night.
Him: Not good night. Farewell, permanently, goodbye good luck.
Me: Ok. Please stop texting now.
Him: Never knock on my door or talk to me in the driveway either. If you fill up my garbage can I will place it at your doorstep. If you set yourself on fire I wouldnt pi** on you to put you out. I think we should be on the same page now.
Me: Stop.

A little bit later:
Me: You made a promise. Its been 36 hrs.
Me: Having any expectations at all would be aiming too high.

This was last Thurs. Friday I sent a message asking if we could talk. Sent him a link to a song thats a favorite for both of us because I heard it playing at the local grocery. It was somewhat symbolic (Enjoy the Silence - Depeche Mode, in case anyone is curious). He replied really late "Thats right."  then "Really all depends to you. Im no Jesus". (Its sometimes hard to decipher his talk, he means things are in my hands because he is too imperfect). I was asleep when I got his texts. Also apologies for the potentially offensive speech to Christians reading this, Im quoting him.

Saturday I sent texts: We shouldnt ruin the good things we have been building up. Another one later about wanting to watch a movie with him that night. I didnt hear back until 9 pm. I was already out having dinner with a friend and having a good time. Me going out is usually a trigger for him. What he does (he did this the whole weekend, Fri, Sat, Sun) is he will trap my car with his when I go out. I usually just maneuver around him (Im a decent driver) and pretend like I didnt even notice. This weekend it was particularly bad. I had to basically drive over our front lawn to get in and out of my space. He waited 6 hrs to reply to my movie question.
Him: No because when its over, you'll accuse me of kicking you out again.
Me: Ok np
Him: Yeah otherwise I would.
Me: Again no worries.
Him: Gonna leave that "no worries" answer right there for next time I hear from you. Worst phrase ever.
Me: Ok Im kinda tipsy and finishing up a dinner in SE. I think its better we talk in person.
Him: I think its better you just talk to yourself (thumb)
Me: Ok. Im omw home. I wont knock on your door.

And the grand finale: Yesterday afternoon I saw him leave the house and come back. I had to go out a little bit later, and found the car situation in the exact same state. When I returned to the house it was almost impossible for me to park. I knocked on his door, no answer. Knocked on back, no answer. Called him, no answer. Texted. Said I was very upset and frustrated about how he was trapping me. Please move the car. He finally moved the car.

At this point Im in a very agitated state and so 20 minutes later I add: I feel like Im doing gymnastic moves trying to make things better between us and it feels da** lonely. Im passing the ball, figure it out. Not sure you are motivated, we will soon see.

Him: [Ladybug] you are my neighbor. If it isnt a parking issue or otherwise related Im not listening. My ear is open just in case it is one of those, otherwise you are wasting your time.

I was asleep (so much catching up to do!) so I didnt answer until 3 hrs later:

Me: Was asleep. Just got this. Neighbor [pwBPD] Im going to take this seriously and finally.
Me: Ready to let go.

... .

I should add that last week I was the most beautiful, amazing woman in the world that he thinks of all day long. According to him.

I cant do another recycle. I started the pattern so Ive been feeling responsible but hes the one been doing most of the break ups for months. There is usually a b/u every week. But I cant do this anymore.

What do I do? Just take it seriously and finally like I did? All I know is that I cannot stay in this pattern anymore. I guess I still love him but honestly not enough to put up with this endlessly. And yes I know theres tons of slip ups in the above read that I made. I feel like I have put in enough good things lately that I can skip berating myself for my mistakes.

I think the big question for me is since I have been a part of this, do I have to clarify that I wont be doing the endless recycles anymore? I dont see how to do it without setting an ultimatum and that wouldnt work.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

The recycles can be really hard. The good news is that it only takes one of you to break the cycle. Since you cannot control him, and he won't likely do it himself, it's up to you to do so. Now, what you do depends on which side of the cycle you want things to stop.

If you want to stop the cycles on the side of the relationship being over forever, then you focus on you and detach.

If you want to stop the cycles on the side of maintaining a relationship, then you focus on you and learn new skills, ways to communicate, and coping skills.

I'm sure that you noticed, but focusing on you is in both of those. 

[onelittleladybug]

If you want to stop the cycles on the side of maintaining a relationship, then you focus on you and learn new skills, ways to communicate, and coping skills.

I'm sure that you noticed, but focusing on you is in both of those. 

Hi Meili

Thanks for getting back to me. I actually regret posting this because I quoted too much and I feel like I didnt respect his privacy by posting word for word what he wrote.

Things are getting better. Most of the stress factors that were in my life are now gone so its easier to focus on me now. I did some things for myself this week, Im also looking at my own behavior and reactions but with compassion. I want to add that Im seeing that I need to spend time in the forum or reading BPD books every day or else I feel like things "regress".

Sometimes the harsh words are just too much to take. I felt like giving up for good last weekend. But then usually what happens next is that I see how bad he is feeling and thats where those words are coming from. I usually just listen to words, but it helps more to listen to the feelings behind them. He reached out to my mother this week, and when she told me I got that he was hurting not hating me.

Last night we had a really good talk about things that happened last fall. It seems like we are finally moving out of the friend zone (although we were never "just friends" and moving forward to getting back together. I am cautiously optimistic, but hopeful. Last week was a backlash, I think we both overreacted because we were getting hopeful about us.

I just have to remember that when he says "I never want to see you or talk to you again" he usually doesnt mean it   At least not for more than 5 minutes.

[Meili]

I'm glad to hear that everything didn't completely fall apart. It's hard and stressful, but the more that you learn to manage things, the easier it becomes. I know that sounds really trite, but it's true.

You have a great outlook on all of it and sound like you're doing and working on the right things. I know that can be difficult when emotions are high. Being Mindful in the moment helps when you master it (I'll let you know when I'm perfect at it and don't make any mistakes!).

I also agree that posting and learning helps to keep you focused.

Please keep us posted!

[onelittleladybug]

Please keep us posted!

Well Meili I dont have good news.

We were falling in love again, things were good, I went on a trip. He was wonderful while I was on the trip, stayed in touch the whole time I wasnt driving. I wasnt asking him to but it was nice as I was traveling by myself and he was being the most charming, loving and funny. I came back, he wasnt as great. Clingy, bossy, demanding. But also loving. The day after that he went into full attack: I treat him poorly when Im having a good time. When asked how (so I can avoid or fix) he wouldnt answer, just cursed me off. I admit I got hurt and not only JADEd but also lashed out for being hurt. No contact the day after that. Tried to reach out the next night, was told to F*** off and basically got punished for not reaching out the night before. Sent him a message the night after asking if we could make peace. He didnt answer. Tried again yesterday, no answer. At some point I got upset at being ignored for days. Knocked on his door but lightly and went out right after. Tried to call him, he wrote back STOP. He is a complete dictator when it comes to how and when we communicate. Its totally ok with him to call when he sees fit. He doesnt knock on my door but he has been outside my window pretending to do something. I wrote back saying no you stop treating me like this. Its not ok. He then says hes looking into ROs. Im sorry Meili but I laughed. Its just so outrageous and crazy. This isnt the first time he has brought up some kind of police matter and I think it is because he has had some altercations. Ive never had any interactions with the police other than routine traffic stops. But this leaves a bad taste in my mouth and its not the first time. Im not going to knock on his door again.

Yesterday I took off on a fun trip, a day trip. By myself. I had a wonderful time. I was happy. I came home, I have a beautiful home that Ive put a lot of effort and care into. I love sitting on my patio. Im not comfortable with my temporary roommate and this situation at the house made me not enjoy being home last night. So I went out alone to a local bar just to not be at the house. I realized this isnt me. Im not ok with being in a r/s like this. In this r/s there has been: Verbal abuse, withholding sex, endless silent treatments. I have gotten injured by accident twice because of his intoxication, Im talking two black bruises that were several inches in diameter. One day Im being told that his dog is my dog (it is out of proportion how much this dog loves me and I do love that dog) but then I dont get to see the dog for days, weeks, months.

A lot of the time I see what Im doing, I see where/how I go wrong in terms of JADEing and all the mistakes Im making. But I also know I cant be that perfect. Anyone I dated before this would drop their jaw to the floor if they knew what was going on, that a current love interest was threatening the police on me.

Feel free to move this to Detaching if you think its appropriate. I wont be posting there because I am going to detach with love. I still love this person but I choose me. My life the way I live it and like it.

I will probably still be hanging around the board for a while. It helps me keep things in perspective.

I wish he would get help and things could change for him. He is the most beautiful soul. BPD sucks. You guys need a broken heart smilie on this board, it would be most used.

[Meili]

Not to be argumentative with you, but this is actually great news:

Feel free to move this to Detaching if you think its appropriate. I wont be posting there because I am going to detach with love. I still love this person but I choose me. My life the way I live it and like it.

Detaching with love is what many on the Saving board fail to see the benefit of, and I don't mean just with regard to the relationship. People in a relationship are individuals, but that often times gets lost in a BPD relationship. The non spends so much time trying to caretake and deal with the pwBPD that he/she loses him/herself. It seems to feel like the two people live the life of one, the pwBPD's life. It doesn't mean that we don't feel love, just that we become our selves again. We all must detach from that and regain who we are. I'm so proud of you for doing that.

Another benefit of detaching with love is that it relieves so much stress. It allows us to let go of the outcome and just live. For those who are trying to save a relationship, it helps make them more attractive as well because their confidence level increases.

Feeling uncomfortable at your own house is not cool. I've lived that life and hated it. I'm sorry that you are having to experience it.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you have JADEd when you knew that you shouldn't. We all do that. It's hard to stay Wiseminded all of the time. It's worth reading the lesson though if you haven't; regardless of your relationship status and future. Staying in the moment and thinking with both your intellect and emotions is a great skill.

[onelittleladybug]

Not to be argumentative with you, but this is actually great news:

Its not argumentative at all Thanks for the support.

Im going to confess I am holding onto hope. I just cant be in misery land anymore. I already miss him so much but I cant put up with that behavior.

Last night I had friends over for dinner, we were grilling in my backyard. I got so sad that he's wasnt there with us and that is a feeling I get often. He's just on the other side of the fence literally, symbolically and mentally. I know a part of him wants to join in. Spending time with my friends last night I was also reminded that I share a special connection with my pwBPD, in many ways I can be more myself around him (or feel accepted as me) than many other people.

I did add to the drama last week in two ways. On Thursday I decided, after taking a long time out, to tell him I cried reading some of the words he sent. I did it because I wanted him to know there are consequences. I sometime feel like he believes he can spew out hate and then be "ok whats for dinner". Im pretty sure he went straight into extreme guilt and shame so I dont know if it was the right thing to do. Then Saturday night I did something probably worse. I brought up that he recently told me he realized he doesnt know much about me. My family back in my home country etc. I told him I didnt want to say anything when he brought this up but I am aware of it. That there is always so much drama that he hasnt made time to get to know me. I said I know about your family, their names, ages etc. I of course meant Ive been paying attention. I then said Im pretty sure you dont know anything about my family (other than my mother who lived here with me until recently). How many siblings I have. What my r/s with my father is like. How old I was when he fully came into my life. It was after that comment that he threatened the RO. So what he was extracting from that comment was "I know about your family" as it was a threat.

Im aware that its not good to bring up things this way in any kind of r/s. I get flooded and the STs really mess me up. Im trying to see things objectively, recognize my mistakes while having compassion for myself. I dont always admit my worst mistakes on this board, but I do in person.

I dont think Ive mentioned he spent the majority of his teenage years in juvie. The things that got him there were IMO basic troubled teen things, nothing very serious. It was all very gray area things, in many ways being creative and impulsive. He never harmed anyone or did anything callously. Just a misguided kid whose parents didnt know how to deal. I cant even imagine how that must have been for him. I had to take care of myself for a month when I was 14 and my mother had to go away for work. She was doing her best as a single mom but it messed me up. I cant even imagine spending these years practically in and out of prison, alone. My heart breaks thinking about it and I think he has been coping better than he could have. But he needs to get out of that survival mode and start living.

It seems to feel like the two people live the life of one, the pwBPD's life.

There has been way too much going on of that. My life is so much more fun to live! Haha. But also serious. He probably wouldnt have been attracted to me in the first place if I had been living his life. This person is who he met. But Im not doing it because of that. Im doing it because the sun is out, its summer, life is short and I have some living to do.

Its not that he hasnt added to my life. He has. But Ive also let him subtract and thats not good.

We all must detach from that and regain who we are. I'm so proud of you for doing that.

Thank you. That feels really good to hear.

Feeling uncomfortable at your own house is not cool. I've lived that life and hated it. I'm sorry that you are having to experience it.

There was a lot of that last winter but honestly not as much lately. At first I could hear and sense anything. Now I hardly notice if he turns up the music. I know it was the same for both of us, we are both sensitive people and it was very stressful for both of us to live next to each other. I was aware of this from day one, Im not sure he thought of it until later. Last weekend I was more uncomfortable because of my temporary roommate/guest. I needed to fill a gap until my friend moves in with me in July. Current roommate is a total stranger and Ive been uncomfortable with the situation. To be perfectly honest I think my discomfort was more disappointment to not be able to leave my house with a stranger in it and retreat to my pwBPD's house because of the current "climate". But it can also get tense around here, especially when he is in ST but doing things around the house to get my attention.

A side note: A friend that was at my house for the first time last night. My other friend soon to be new roommate told him about my r/s with my neighbor/pwBPD. His reaction was insensitive: "You shouldnt s*** where you sleep". I said thats all well and good however when you are attracted to someone and have feelings for them and they are right in front of you every day its hard to not give into it. But later that night when he was gone I regretted not answering "probably right for those people who compare  s******* to relationships". Hindsight. But also must not let that get to me.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you have JADEd when you knew that you shouldn't. We all do that. It's hard to stay Wiseminded all of the time. It's worth reading the lesson though if you haven't; regardless of your relationship status and future. Staying in the moment and thinking with both your intellect and emotions is a great skill.

Im going to keep at it. Just make sure Im taking enough time to live my life. Im not leaving the board, I at least have to be improving my r/s with a neighbor if nothing more. But its definitely me time now. Ive been reading up on all the communication tools. Youre spot on that mindfulness is next, this is the part Ive been neglecting.

Based on our history its not likely the final moment. But there needs to be a shift and a change and maybe that change is dramatic. There are more than one possibilities or paths this can go down. All I can do is try to steer it from a disaster, I am beginning to see how my expectations have been unhelpful. One big project is to try to separate expectations from needs and boundaries.

Thanks Meili for your wonderful support, now and before. I will update if there is a reason to.

[Meili]

Just a quick note, I'm not sure if I've shared this lesson with you or you've discovered it yet, but it might help you in expressing things to your pwBPD: Communicate - Listen and Be Heard.

It's important that we be able to convey how we feel about things, and for it not to come across in a threatening manner. Some of the communication skills (like S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N.) can really help with that.

I have no way of knowing, but I strongly suspect that the two things that you mentioned that you brought up triggered an intense shame response in him. That can quickly translate, for him, into "I'm not good enough, and she's going to leave me, so I need to leave her first to protect myself" and projection types of thinking. It would certainly explain his response as you've described it.

Please do keep us updated as things change for you... .regardless of the relationship status.

[onelittleladybug]

Just a quick note, I'm not sure if I've shared this lesson with you or you've discovered it yet, but it might help you in expressing things to your pwBPD: Communicate - Listen and Be Heard.

It's important that we be able to convey how we feel about things, and for it not to come across in a threatening manner. Some of the communication skills (like S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N.) can really help with that.

Yes I know about it. This is my dilemma: My pwBPD will get angry about something and he will shut me out. He wont answer messages. I have tried calling. I have also tried knocking on his door a couple times and that has either been very welcome or completely unwelcome so there is no way for me to predict what is up. I try to give it some time. Sometimes I will try to coax him out, sometime not. It may take a few days. Sometimes, honestly often, I will feel hurt and I will communicate something similar to what I described.

I dont feel like I ever get a chance to Dearman or SET. Many nights that pwBPD has been ready to come out of what I call "the cave" I have been tired and stressed because of work or things going on in my life not necessarily related to him. Or Ive simply not felt ready to open up to him and give Dearman and SET a chance. I feel like Im constantly given very short windows and extreme tests.

I have no way of knowing, but I strongly suspect that the two things that you mentioned that you brought up triggered an intense shame response in him. That can quickly translate, for him, into "I'm not good enough, and she's going to leave me, so I need to leave her first to protect myself" and projection types of thinking. It would certainly explain his response as you've described it.

This is all accurate. Im sure he is feeling intense shame although I certainly didnt mean to cause that and wasnt being mindful of it when I spoke those words. In some ways I am leaving, because its been 95% me that pulls us out of ST and I cant do it anymore. If Im not doing that nothing happens. Unless he changes. I did send him a text asking him for my stuff back because based on experience and history I wont see my things for many days even weeks. I once had half of my kitchen stuff in his house and he wasnt talking to me, it took 10 days until I saw it again. He had also reminded me of a time that he paid something for me that I had forgotten about, he was assertive about it last week so I offered to pay him back. All very break up-y texts. But to me, the long ST feels like a break up anyway. Throughout my life I have regarded long breaks in communication to be a break up of a kind, sort of fizzling out. Its hard for me to change the rules for him. It could be hours, days, weeks before he comes out of it or maybe one day he just wont.

This might just be the culprit of our communication problems. He constantly sees it as me leaving him but in my world, when someone shuts you out, asks you to leave their house, tells you to f*** off, or deliberately ignores you thats automatically a break up.

Definitely feel free to give feedback on this. Maybe this is a thought error for me. Throughout my life Ive often thought of my first bf and how we broke up. We didnt see each other for 3 weeks and spoke very little, I thought it automatically meant it was over. He didnt. I kissed another guy (I was 17 please dont judge me) and the next time I met my bf I had a talk with him that made it official that we were broken up but in my mind it was just a formality. I now see that was maybe a little BPD of me! 

[Meili]

You won't get any judgment from me. For some, no contact for three weeks could certainly be viewed as the end of the relationship. For others, well... .

I know that this is going to shock you, but I have a link about ST (BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment) that may be of use. It discusses silent treatment/withholding. What do you think would happen if you just didn't try to contact him when he starts acting like this?

Also, the lesson on The do's and don'ts in a BPD relationship may also provide some insight on ways to handle things differently.

The feeling of being given extreme tests and short time frames is something that I'm very familiar with. I remember feeling that I had to do everything perfectly before my x would dysregulate and we would be in the downward spiral once again. In times where I knew that I was overly stressed or overwhelmed, I would try to lovingly let her know that I wanted to talk to or spend time with her, but I needed some time to myself. That was somewhat successful. In hindsight, I strongly suspect that the success rate was directly relatable to how I approached my needing time to myself. Do you think that defining a boundary about not spending time with him when you're emotionally strong enough to stay Wiseminded/Mindful would do any good?

[onelittleladybug]

You won't get any judgment from me. For some, no contact for three weeks could certainly be viewed as the end of the relationship. For others, well... .

Thanks for validating that. I think we just have to go with our own meanings/feelings about it. But maybe I should communicate to him where I stand on it... ?

I know that this is going to shock you,

Ha! Link on. Im 100% up for it. The link is broken though can you fix?

What do you think would happen if you just didn't try to contact him when he starts acting like this?

Well... .Last time I did that it took 8 weeks and some days (who's counting?) But... .Maybe extension bursts? Like really long drawn out ones... ?

Do you think that defining a boundary about not spending time with him when you're emotionally strong enough to stay Wiseminded/Mindful would do any good?

Well heres the thing. Im probably trying to have both presence and absence at the same time. Let me explain: Sometimes I want to physically be together, but in silence. I mean just cuddle in front of tv etc. I want a vacation from drama and/or even working on r/s in terms of communication. I just want to "be" together. He seems to enjoy it to a point, but it looks to me like he cant fully relax and enjoy it. It has come up that he feels used. Which is in my mind and heart as far from it as possible, to me it means that being together is so natural and easy that sometimes not many things need to be said. I feel like sometimes thats a good way to spend a night but not all nights. Im just not always in that mode to be able to talk about feelings.

A side note to this, I feel like Im demonstrating needs and behaviors that go against what is expected of me as a woman. I feel pressured to be the one who talks about feelings all the time when it doesnt quite come naturally to me but is a stretch, something I have to put energy and effort into.

Do I have unreasonable expectations to be able to experience this with my pwBPD?
If so I probably shouldnt try, I should be alone when I feel like I dont have much to give other than my presence and my physical affection and by that I dont necessarily mean sex, I mean just being physically present and close but mostly quiet. With brains turned off. Not working, not improving, not fixing, not being wide open and sharing but half way and in a static state.

[Meili]

The link is broken though can you fix?

I fixed the link in the other post. Sorry about that.

Well... .Last time I did that it took 8 weeks and some days (who's counting?) But... .Maybe extension bursts? Like really long drawn out ones... ?

Possibly. It takes pwBPD a lot longer to come back to an emotionally neutral position than it does a non.

Another possibility is that he "knows" that he can make you wait as long as he likes because you have been showing him that he can. This was one of the reasons that I was happy to hear that you are doing more for you and focusing less on the situation.

I'm pretty sure that you already know that dealing with a pwBPD can feel a lot like dealing with a toddler at times. Just like a toddler, the pwBPD can push hard against our boundaries to see when/if we will fail to maintain them. When we do that both the toddler and the pwBPD learns that if they just throw a big enough tantrum that they will eventually get what they want and the boundary becomes meaningless. What's worse, every boundary we define becomes meaningless at that point because they learn that all that they have to do is push a bit harder and we'll eventually cave.

Sometimes I want to physically be together, but in silence. I mean just cuddle in front of tv etc. I want a vacation from drama and/or even working on r/s in terms of communication. I just want to "be" together.

It's a very good bet that we can all relate to that. We all long for, or have longed for, just a bit of peace and quiet and time to enjoy the presence of the person that we love.

He seems to enjoy it to a point, but it looks to me like he cant fully relax and enjoy it. It has come up that he feels used.

There's likely far more going on inside of him. Silence can be very uneasy for a lot of people, BPD or not. It causes the mind to race as they imagine all sorts of horrible things. "Why doesn't she want to talk to me?" "Is she mad at me?" "What did I do wrong this time?"

There's a humorous graphic floating around the Internet of a couple sitting on a sofa. The woman's mind is racing wondering what her guy is thinking, what happened, and what went wrong? He's wondering why his motorcycle won't start (sorry, I'm a motorcycle guy... .that one is far more true than it should be!). But, those kinds of things actually happen.

I feel like Im demonstrating needs and behaviors that go against what is expected of me as a woman. I feel pressured to be the one who talks about feelings all the time when it doesnt quite come naturally to me but is a stretch, something I have to put energy and effort into.

Stereotypes cause so many problems! Most of the women in my world, friends and those that I have been involved with, actually fall into the same category as you. They would rather just hang out and just "be" much of the time without the stress and pressure to deal with the deep thoughts that go with emotions. You are not alone in this.

Do I have unreasonable expectations to be able to experience this with my pwBPD?

Quite possibly! One of the things that I tend to talk a lot about is discarding all expectations of others. They aren't fair to the other person and cause a significant amount of harm. Expectations cause of to be predisposed to a specific thought process and we can get hurt when the other person does not perform as we thought that they should.

If so I probably shouldnt try, I should be alone when I feel like I dont have much to give other than my presence and my physical affection and by that I dont necessarily mean sex, I mean just being physically present and close but mostly quiet. With brains turned off. Not working, not improving, not fixing, not being wide open and sharing but half way and in a static state.

I wonder if a hybrid of the two would work if it comes up again. Something to the effect of:

"Honey, I'd really like to spend time some quiet time with you tonight just sitting and watching TV." Let him make the decision about whether or not he's comfortable with that or not. You get to define your boundary, he gets to choose whether or not he is going to respect it. What do you think?

[onelittleladybug]

Another possibility is that he "knows" that he can make you wait as long as he likes because you have been showing him that he can. This was one of the reasons that I was happy to hear that you are doing more for you and focusing less on the situation.

I believe you and hear you. Food for thought. I was raised/taught to assert limits rather than boundaries. More like ultimatums, putting foot down etc. Ive always been very uncomfortable with this so have throughout my life either avoided or set firm limits and never been happy with either approach. Again it was the only thing I knew. Im very much trying to find my way of setting boundaries based on my values. I dont think I totally understood the concept until I came to this forum, of setting boundaries without being inflexible. My family is a bit square. Well more than a bit  I like to be flexible but not easily broken. People often take me as a pushover early on when getting to know me and then get upset when they find I really am not. The changes that Im making to my boundary setting feels like walking a tight rope in the dark. Thats a bit dramatic but still. I feel like I fumble a lot.

I'm pretty sure that you already know that dealing with a pwBPD can feel a lot like dealing with a toddler at times. Just like a toddler, the pwBPD can push hard against our boundaries to see when/if we will fail to maintain them.

Yeah... .Sigh. The hardest part for me is adjusting from the switch from a partner that is equal and someone that in many ways counter balances me, to a toddler.

I was once in a r/s with someone who at the time had not yet developed the full schizophrenia that took his life many years later. I saw all the subtle signs way before everyone else. It was a gradual decline. I always feel like I knew the real him. I feel the same way about my pwBPD, but instead of a gradual decline its constantly cycling. I am in no way comparing those two things, I am trying to say I fully understand that this is a mental disorder but the timing and the cycles are throwing me off.

There's likely far more going on inside of him. Silence can be very uneasy for a lot of people, BPD or not. It causes the mind to race as they imagine all sorts of horrible things. "Why doesn't she want to talk to me?" "Is she mad at me?" "What did I do wrong this time?"

I have to remember to tell myself as much as I need a break from that, he needs it even more and cant get it.

There's a humorous graphic floating around the Internet of a couple sitting on a sofa. The woman's mind is racing wondering what her guy is thinking, what happened, and what went wrong? He's wondering why his motorcycle won't start (sorry, I'm a motorcycle guy... .that one is far more true than it should be!). But, those kinds of things actually happen.

Oh yeah and Im the one either thinking about my version of the motorcycle or nothing at all.

Thanks for validating this and my internalized stereotype pressure.

Quite possibly! One of the things that I tend to talk a lot about is discarding all expectations of others. They aren't fair to the other person and cause a significant amount of harm. Expectations cause of to be predisposed to a specific thought process and we can get hurt when the other person does not perform as we thought that they should.

I really have to look at this. I regard myself as being easy going, low maintenance and fairly free of expectations but... .I need to look within.

Next on the to do list: Levitating.

J/k. Not. Yes j/k.

I wonder if a hybrid of the two would work if it comes up again. Something to the effect of:

"Honey, I'd really like to spend time some quiet time with you tonight just sitting and watching TV." Let him make the decision about whether or not he's comfortable with that or not. You get to define your boundary, he gets to choose whether or not he is going to respect it. What do you think?

That sounds like a great idea. I also think if back together again I need to bring to attention to him that his day starts and ends much earlier than mine. He has decompressed well before I have and I still need my decompression time. I can do it around him, but not if he is feeling emotionally needy. I worked with kids for a while, giving a clear time limit really worked. I dont like to think of my lover as a child, but I even used to say back then that adults were just overgrown kids. Adulthood is mostly misunderstood.

[Meili]

Next on the to do list: Levitating.

That's odd, that's the next thing on my to do list as well!

That sounds like a great idea. I also think if back together again I need to bring to attention to him that his day starts and ends much earlier than mine. He has decompressed well before I have and I still need my decompression time. I can do it around him, but not if he is feeling emotionally needy. I worked with kids for a while, giving a clear time limit really worked. I dont like to think of my lover as a child, but I even used to say back then that adults were just overgrown kids. Adulthood is mostly misunderstood.

What you said about working with the kids is a great example of boundary control.

I'd like to suggest that you give some thought about how to approach the subject of telling him that you need some time to decompress before actually doing so. Many people on these boards have found it beneficial to post about how they might do things like that before they actually do it so as to get feedback and advice first. If you're comfortable doing that, it won't hurt anything.

[onelittleladybug]

Meili last week my pwBPD insisted we watch Edge of Tomorrow. Tom Cruise and Emily Blunt fight evil aliens that are destroying the human race. Cruise is exposed to a chemical that gives him special powers (or curse, depending on how you look at it) so when he is killed by aliens, time stops and rewinds and he gets to repeat the day and every step and action he takes. After a couple hundred or so recycles he has perfected every move, avoided all the traps and learned from every mistake. They win the war and live happily ever after.

I dont know why I didnt get the metaphor while we were watching the movie. 99.99% sure pwBPD did. I just woke up and had the ligthbulb moment.

I'd like to suggest that you give some thought about how to approach the subject of telling him that you need some time to decompress before actually doing so. Many people on these boards have found it beneficial to post about how they might do things like that before they actually do it so as to get feedback and advice first. If you're comfortable doing that, it won't hurt anything.

Im very comfortable and Im sure this would be helpful.

The very honest answer this is how that would probably go down: I will say "Hey remember when you told me how you need to decompress, play video games or not but mainly be alone for some time after work? Well its the same thing for me. My day starts and ends later than yours so sometime Im not fully unwound until maybe 8 or even 9 depending on what Ive had going on. Im usually making dinner at the end of my decompression time so by the time its ready Im also ready".

Then next time it comes up I will remind him of that conversation.

Thoughts?

Here are the pitfalls: Him demanding we pick up fast food, to "save me" from cooking and the added perk of getting me ready and available earlier. But I want to a) eat healthier, b) not have dinner late. The nights we pick up dinner we end up eating later than is good for me. I have digestion problems and have to be mindful of this. I also need variety in my diet, I get bored eating the same food every night. He could just live off hamburgers for the rest of his life. That said he loves everything I cook, he just doesnt want to wait for me to come watch something with him. Its a sweet problem. But it can be overwhelming and I often feel controlled. I should add cooking is a creative outlet for me and works really well into my decompression time IF I get space and quiet time to do it. I mean, I wouldnt be complaining if I was on the receiving end of that... .Just saying.

[Meili]

OLB, most people use the movie "Groundhog Day" as a metaphor, but yours seems more fitting. Fortunately, our lives are not movies and we have a choice whether or not to stay in the repeating cycle. Learning How to respond to heightened emotions can help of step out of it.

Your idea about how to express to him that you need more time would probably be just fine if you were dealing with someone who was Mindful of his thoughts. From what you describe, he doesn't seem to be one of those folks. That being said, it looks like you have a great start on D.E.A.R.M.A.N.

You have:

• D= Describe the current situation.
• E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation.
• A= Assert yourself by asking for what you want or saying no clearly

... .

• M= Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives.
• A= Appear Confident.

... .
[/list]

Can you add:

• R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. Tell the person the positive effects of getting what you want or need. Help the person feel good ahead of time for doing what you want.
• N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get.

[onelittleladybug]

Can you add:

• R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. Tell the person the positive effects of getting what you want or need. Help the person feel good ahead of time for doing what you want.
• N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get.

I wish I had time to do this earlier today because guess what, on this very long workday my pwBPD comes out and starts talking to me as I am pulling up. I am completely wiped out Im feeling so tired. And now of course he really wants to talk. We had a little back and forth about if there is my stuff at his house, he gets in the car. I go up to the car and knock on the window.

Me: We really should talk soon.
Him: What about?
Me: Us. Stuff.
Him: When?
Me: When its good time.
Him: Talk now.
Me: No its not a good time right this second.
Him: Why?
Me: Because youre in the car and Im outside and I just got home. Im really tired I need to decompress.
Him: I love you do death but I can only be your friend.
Me: OK.
Him: What do you mean ok?
Me: Because if thats really what you want then ok. But Im more saying ok because now is not a good time to talk.
Him: Why is it not?
Me: Because Im very tired. Remember how slow work has been for me lately?
Him: Yeah?
Me: Well now its just the opposite.
Him: Did you eat?
Me: No. I stopped working 20 minutes ago.
Him: You dont need to decompress. Come to the store with me.
Me: No I have to decompress. You got off work 4 hrs ago. I just did.
Him: Come with me to the store.
Me: No but I will come over later if you want. I really have to sit down and relax. Its better for both of us.
Him: But it might be my last trip ever. What if I never come back?
[Not a suicide threat, he meant what if he gets in an accident]
Him: Goodbye maybe for the last time
Me: Dont ever say that, thats not funny
Him: Take my hand
Me: No Im not going to say goodbye to you that way. Just let me know when youre home I will come over.
Him: OK do you need anything?
Me: No thanks I cant think of anything. But let me know when you are home. If you still want me to come over I will.
Him: (Reaches for my hand and kisses it). I love you to death.
Me: I love you too.
Him: (Laughs) No you dont.
Me: Yes I really do.
Me: Drive safe ok. See you later.

[Meili]

That actually sounds like a good exchange to me. Did you two talk again later?

[onelittleladybug]

Did you two talk again later?

Oh yes. That was some night. He got home late. I went immediately over. I have a huge day ahead of me so very little time now. I have an appointment re. my US naturalization today. Followed by 2 meetings at work and a very long day ahead. He knows, has been excited about it or at least was last week. I was hoping for a good talk but not too extended. I offered to make us eggs and bacon (his favorite), we still had not eaten. He kept ignoring my offers. I was famished, I ate almost nothing yesterday. He finally insisted on making mac and cheese and it took him 45 mins. We ate half hr past midnight. And the conversation... .Heres a quick recap:

He thinks I may have left my sweater at some other guys house, "but its none of his business". Two girls at the store were cute, I should have come with to the store. Would that make them not cute? Yes. Then: I (ladybug) am now with my new/temporary roommate (according to him). I shouldnt be with him (pwBPD) as that will make my roommate jealous. pwBPD heard us talking on the patio last night, sounds like we were having fun. I told him it was very normal to feel uneasy about this situation and that I too would be uneasy if it was the other way around. He got defensive, I hugged him, he said I was acting like I felt sorry for him.

He (pwBPD) then proceeded to tell me he doesnt see me as a life partner. By that he doesnt mean he doesnt see me as someones life partner, just not his. Why cant we just be friends instead of crashing and burning? I said if thats really what you want then that can happen down the line but we cant switch back and forth like that constantly. He then says its not just up to him I should tell him. I said that sounds pretty conclusive and its hard to negotiate that after such a statement. I said we havent done any better as just friends than lovers, the same problems are still there. We dont really have a choice about it, we really have to learn to communicate better to avoid the crazy fights we have. Both of us. He asked about it and I said I see some things that I need to change, and I see things that you need to change. Maybe you see more than what I see so we need to have the conversation about what we are doing that is hurtful.

He kept at it with not a life partner and it hurt me. I start shutting down emotionally when he does stuff like that. At some point he said: If youre not ok with just being friends you should just go home and sleep there tonight. I said ok, walked to the door and picked up my things. Him: What are you just gonna leave? I said yes you told me to. Then back pedaling. Didnt want me to leave.

I asked him what bothered him last week. It was vague but finally came out: Did you have company last night? Yes. And the night before? Yes. And the night before? No actually. Him: Ok but when you do you dont text me. You just ignore me. I said: I didnt know that bothered you. But also I dont text you because you dont answer my messages. Him: Only the ones I like. Me: Yes and thats not cool.

We tried to talk about last weeks events, it was really late. We started talking about it, it was too hard and I suggested I read the texts between us. He was ok with that. Once I started reading he defended every one adamantly. I said Im trying to get to the part where the fight started, we are not nearly there. He kept on, was getting aggravated. I was too. So I said we have to stop its too late, Im tired and tomorrow is a very important day for me. I said ok you win. You win the argument. Im not your life partner, Im wrong about everything, you are right about everything. We are just friends so Im going home to sleep.

I turn around and he is sitting on the floor with his dog panting heavily, the dog was severely distressed. He said can you please come and talk to him before he leaves, he is so upset. I sat down with them, tried to get the dog to relax. It wasnt working. I looked at him and said he wont calm down, its because of you. He is reacting to you. He said yes. Im very upset. I said ok. We are all going to bed. What do you mean? We are all going to bed together (the dog always sleeps in his bed).

We went to bed, he was happy. The dog was happy. I was sad. We all woke up in the morning and my pwBPD was very sweet.

[Meili]

It doesn't sound horribly bad. Do you wish that you had handled any of it differently in hindsight?

It sounds like he gave you some useful information about what has been going on with him and his emotions. There's an old, but interesting thread on the push/pull dynamic that might be an interesting read for you. It took me a long time to learn to not react to my x's dysfunctional dance of pulling me close and then pushing me away.

[onelittleladybug]

I tend to take everything said to me very literally. At face value. Its not that I cant pick up things that are left unsaid and read between the lines, its more that a long time ago when I was probably more insecure about myself than I am now (younger) I developed this habit as a way of coping with challenging situations or relationships. So my thing is Im not going to read into things, I even ignore signs and go by your words even when your actions and even body language and facial expressions contradict what you are saying. I see them, I register them but I believe your words because I believe thats what is being offered and its all thats being offered. Maybe Im wrong and maybe this is too extreme. Maybe it makes me vulnerable for lies.

It doesn't sound horribly bad. Do you wish that you had handled any of it differently in hindsight?

It wasnt too bad. There was no verbal abuse, no rage. It didnt feel good. I think I did right by staying the night. Will it ever get easier though?

It sounds like he gave you some useful information about what has been going on with him and his emotions. There's an old, but interesting thread on the push/pull dynamic that might be an interesting read for you. It took me a long time to learn to not react to my x's dysfunctional dance of pulling me close and then pushing me away.

Yes I should read up on it. I still dont know how to deal with it. I mean the emotional reality of it. I guess theres no manual for that.

When my pwBPD says "I dont see you as a life partner" it hurts me. I dont know if he is my life partner. I try not to think too far into the future. But being shut out like that feels bad.

I had limited time to post this morning. I should have added that as he is saying those words he is also touching me, holding me affectionately. One minute whispering something in my ear, the next saying this. Its hard.

[onelittleladybug]

Tonight another accusation.

He was sick last night and I had company over, he said earlier this week that he feels like he doesnt matter on nights that Im with friends because I dont text him or check in on him at all. So I made sure to text a couple times when my friend was at my house. He definitely didnt want company last night and I totally understood. Tonight it sounded like he was still sick so I picked up dinner for him. I texted about it (I was prepared to keep his dinner if he would reject it or suggest he put it in the freezer for later), he said "so you just bought your way in through my door" I said no not at all, I am happy to be by myself tonight Im just dropping this off. We can check in with each other later. He seemed really happy about me bringing dinner, he seemed very appreciative and surprised that it was unconditional. He said as much. I just went on with my night. Ive been feeling a bit sad, just taking life in and I felt like I needed to just go through it tonight by myself. He texted a few times and I told him I was planning my day trip tomorrow, finding places that would be good to go alone. He has plans with his family and thats wonderful. I think its good for me to do things on my own.

Everything seemed to be good. Then a text: "Im actually super impressed. Wasnt sure you'd actually be able to score on your roommate. Wrong again!"

Im such an idiot I dont actually believe things. I get a message like this and I think I must be misreading something. Roomie is out tonight, his car isnt out front which is something that my pwBPD pays attention to. He doesnt miss much.

Follow up texts: Im a lying liar that lies, dishonest, seem to care but dont.

My response:
I dont like being accused of things I didnt do.
I dont like being talked to like this.
If he has questions for me or if there is something we need to talk about I would be happy to.

His response:
Im really happy youre doing things that make you happy. Congratulations.

Then hes out. No more responses from him. Dont assume he meant that in a sincere way. Experience tells me things are not going to be better tomorrow but worse. From here the only way to go is to go silent for several days until he comes out of it.

WHY am I doing this? Theres not even a 5 minute break. There is 95% this and 5% ok-ish.

I dont like being around my roommate. It sucks to be accused of cheating with someone you cant stand by someone who cant be in a relationship with you.

[onelittleladybug]

PS (Oddly I cant edit last post): I was trying to DEARMAN but I felt like I was under time pressure and wasnt thinking fast enough. I ended the convo by saying this:

It looks like you dont want to talk more tonight. I dont know what upset you but I would like to resolve it. Can we talk about it again this weekend?

It sounds like you have questions and concerns and I think we would both feel better if we could clear the air.

[Meili]

I even ignore signs and go by your words even when your actions and even body language and facial expressions contradict what you are saying. I see them, I register them but I believe your words because I believe thats what is being offered and its all thats being offered. Maybe Im wrong and maybe this is too extreme. Maybe it makes me vulnerable for lies.

This may not be the best way to handle some things. Words are tricky and can have different meanings based on context, tone, and intent. That's part of what makes communication via text so problematic for many people.

Also, it's hard to Listen with Empathy when you are only paying attention to the words. There is so much subtext that gets ignored that way. There are subtle clues to what a person is feeling that can get lost. For instance, in written form, short, quick sentences convey intense emotions. Long, wordy sentences tell the reader that the author is more subdued and calm. The same types of clues apply to verbal communication.

This doesn't even touch on the subject that when compared to action over time versus words over time, the actions tend to tell the truth of the matter.

This is all further complicated by the fact that people who present BPD traits tend to be reacting to their heightened emotions and what is real to them at that moment. Their words express their feelings at that moment. But when you compare those words with their actions over time, sometimes they don't mix and you can see what is truly going on.

It wasnt too bad. There was no verbal abuse, no rage. It didnt feel good. I think I did right by staying the night. Will it ever get easier though?

It can get easier, yes. A lot of this takes reprogramming our brains and how we react/respond. We all do what we have been taught is the proper way to respond to situations. The simple fact is that what almost all of us have learned is the opposite of what works best. Dealing with someone with BPD traits is often counter-intuitive. Things take time, and relearning how communicate is no exception.

Yes I should read up on it. I still dont know how to deal with it. I mean the emotional reality of it. I guess theres no manual for that.

When my pwBPD says "I dont see you as a life partner" it hurts me. I dont know if he is my life partner. I try not to think too far into the future. But being shut out like that feels bad.

There is actually a very simple solution here, and that is to not take it personally. Now, I realize that's easy to say and a lot more difficult to do, but that's why it is so advisable to learn all that you can about BPD. When the disorder is understood, it is far easier to accept that what he is telling you probably has very little to do with you and the moment that the two of you are in. What is more likely is that he is responding to something that happened in his past.

Take, for instance, the accusations about the roommate when the roommate was not even home. What do you think was behind that? Clearly, there is nothing that you would consider rational thought (I guarantee you that it made perfect sense in his mind at that moment though) behind the words. Is it possible that it wasn't even about you?  After all, isn't jealous always about the insecurities of the person making the accusations?

I was trying to DEARMAN but I felt like I was under time pressure and wasnt thinking fast enough.

Yeah, I know, it's hard... .really hard to learn to do these things in the moment. The really cool part about the communication tools we talk about around here is that you can practice them at any time with anyone. They are effective in every interaction that we have with others.

One thing that I found that was a huge benefit to me was to post to other members of these boards. It helped me greatly with listening with empathy and, given the level of emotional arousal that many have around here from time to time, it also provided me with the opportunity to practice the communication tools. Maybe that would work for you as well?

[onelittleladybug]

This may not be the best way to handle some things. Words are tricky and can have different meanings based on context, tone, and intent.

This is a coping mechanism, that I feel has done more good than harm for me in the past. Its a way of dealing with my own insecurities, rejection and abandonment issues. This approach is clearly not working anymore, yet its really hard to ween myself off it.

This conversation is helping me sort out my own reactions to perceived or real rejection. Im not sure how deep I should get into it here but I could.

That's part of what makes communication via text so problematic for many people.

Im trying to get my pwBPD to talk via phone. He wont pick up when I call just answer text messages. Any suggestions?

I personally have gotten so frustrated with texting in general in my life, I would be more than happy to be done with it for good. This goes for every area in my life, its as frustrating at work as in my personal life.

There are subtle clues to what a person is feeling that can get lost. For instance, in written form, short, quick sentences convey intense emotions. Long, wordy sentences tell the reader that the author is more subdued and calm. The same types of clues apply to verbal communication.

I had not put it in context with length of sentences. Thats really valuable information. Thanks!

This doesn't even touch on the subject that when compared to action over time versus words over time, the actions tend to tell the truth of the matter.

You are right. Its more helpful to focus on the actions vs the words. There is certainly enough history here to look at the pattern and the fact that we are still here and going.

It can get easier, yes.

Things take time, and relearning how communicate is no exception.

I needed that reminder, thank you. I think I am probably still being impatient.

There is actually a very simple solution here, and that is to not take it personally.

This is what I struggle with: If I am not to take the negative personally, how can I fully believe the positive? And I dont mean the idealization (love bombing), that is actually something Im not comfortable with and I dont believe it when its happening. But the real positive. I hope Im being clear I feel like thats a bit vague.

... it is far easier to accept that what he is telling you probably has very little to do with you and the moment that the two of you are in. What is more likely is that he is responding to something that happened in his past.

Take, for instance, the accusations about the roommate when the roommate was not even home. What do you think was behind that? Clearly, there is nothing that you would consider rational thought (I guarantee you that it made perfect sense in his mind at that moment though) behind the words. Is it possible that it wasn't even about you?  After all, isn't jealous always about the insecurities of the person making the accusations?

Aaahhhh! So possibly he was betrayed by someone, and they brought him something or did something nice out of guilt or to cover up for it. Or any variation of this scenario.

Thank you Meili. Youre amazing.

One thing that I found that was a huge benefit to me was to post to other members of these boards. It helped me greatly with listening with empathy and, given the level of emotional arousal that many have around here from time to time, it also provided me with the opportunity to practice the communication tools. Maybe that would work for you as well?

It is helping me greatly, probably most of all. I want to do more of it but adhd makes writing in a cohesive way in terms of avoiding leaving half finished sentences or generally badly edited posts  I hope in time I can write more effectively, I want to do more of it.

[Meili]

Share as much and deep as you are comfortable with. Some of us are more comfortable than others. I was very open about my stuff when I was deep in my situation. Others are more candid about what they write. We are here to support you either way.

I think that your writing is fine. I generally believe that I understand what you are getting at. Like when you thought that you might be being vague about the not taking stuff personally part and how to trust the positive then. Part of it is that we get it... .we've all been there in some form or another. Lengthy discussions aren't always necessary as a result.

What you were asking is a perfectly valid question. The answer is as simple as looking at what is behind the "positive" and "negative" (I dislike that terminology because emotions are neither "positive" nor "negative"... .but we'll use them here for simplicity) emotions. I learned to not take the "negative" personally, unless it was because of something that I actually did, because there was no rational nexus between her complaint/accusation and what I had done. Therefore, it must be coming from somewhere else and has to do with something else. In other words, it wasn't about me at all. Because it wasn't about me, I didn't take it personally. In fact, I ultimately learned to be compassionate about what was going on with her when she got that way. Empathy played a key role in that.

Like you, I never believed the idealization. It's funny that we can depersonalize from the "positive" much easier than the "negative." For me, that was because I spent my entire life being told that I'm not good enough, etc. So, it was far easier to believe the bad than it was the good.

As for the text messages vs. the phone calls. If he won't answer the calls, stop calling. If you're making more of an effort to communicate than he is, then you're chasing. Stop chasing.

Do you think that it would help to set a boundary for yourself wherein you won't communicate about anything meaningful via text? You don't have to express that to him, just don't do it. You can tell him things like, "What you are trying to tell me is really important to me and I'm afraid that I won't understand via text. I'll happily talk to you about it over coffee or on the phone when you're ready." and end the conversation at that point. Don't engage on the topic any further. It will probably be hard at first, but you'll get better at it over time. My curiosity and insecurity killed me when I tried to do that and I kept engaging. That caused me even more problems.

[onelittleladybug]

Hi Meili

Before I reply to your comments I just want to give you a quick update on the weekend and some decisions I made.

My pwBPD was predictably not replying to any messages I sent last Saturday, the day after he accused me of having sex with my roommate and lying and deceiving him. I sent a message that morning telling him I had plans to go down to the coast, that I wasnt sure if he wanted to come along or not (he suggested we take this trip together a few weeks ago when he was coming out of his 8 week NC). I told him if that was the case just let me know and I will modify my plans, as I could have gone somewhere else. Theres plenty of options around me. Anyway, radio silence as usual and then on Sunday afternoon he sent a message about something completely mundane.

Meili I didnt feel like answering his message. I forced myself to after about an hour because I had made a conscious decision to not get into a retaliatory mode and to be as responsive and accountable in communication as I want others to be. But I did not feel like communicating with him at all.

I did a lot of fun stuff by myself this weekend and I was content and happy with how I spent my weekend. But I felt really lonely nonetheless. This is not a norm for me. It happens rarely and only when Im interacting with other people and the r/s (friendship or romantic, it can be either) is causing me some kind of pain. I can spend a lot of time by myself and be perfectly content. So this feeling that I got this weekend is a   and I am going to listen to it.

I crossed off a couple dozen things off my to do list over the weekend and at least a third of them were all about enjoying myself. But I also had a lot of time to think. I made some decisions about things... .

Its been 6 years since my last committed r/s and cohabitation. The main reason for that is circumstances, I have been moving around between 2 states and didnt want to get into anything serious knowing I would move away. Im settling where I am now but its taken a long time to get my life set up here and most of my attention. I feel like Im ready for a partnership again and I miss it. I dont expect it to happen right away, it may take years to find the right person. But I want that place to be open and available in my life.

My pwBPD has proven himself to be incapable of being this person in my life and he has said as much several times. Its sad, but its the reality of the situation. He is even telling this to me as in the infamous "I dont see you as a life partner", "I dont want to grow up" (that did not come from me, Im guessing an ex gf). Our r/s is off and on, he is giving me silent treatment I would say as much as 5 days out of every week. Sex happens only occasionally and cannot ever be initiated by me. He is all over the map when it comes to defining the r/s. The inmates have been running the asylum for sure, but I am also not seeing any signs whatsoever that this can be a partnership where I can have the bare minimum of my needs met.

I should add, because Im not sure Ive been clear about this in my posts before that he is a low functioning pwBPD. He doesnt leave the house when he gets off work. Hes been at the same work place for many years but before that he was constantly getting into trouble and leaving places. I dont think he has seen his parents for several months. He was alone over Christmas and NYE. His only friend aside me is a guy who lived in my apartment before me. He sees him every couple months. Im the only active r/s in his life.

So Im not leaving him. That was another decision I made a while back, that I would have to deal with the consequences of this r/s and not walk away. I know NC is usually recommended but that for me would mean moving out of my house and I neither can nor want to. I also dont want to leave him. So that leaves only one option left which is to try a completely platonic friendship. I think this is what my pwBPD needs and wants most of all. He keeps saying "how do I get to be like your other friends? I want you to be my best friend forever". I once tried to explain to him that would just put off the loss into further in the future and it would be even more painful, because in the future significant others would come between us. But I am accepting this as the reality of now and worrying about the future later.

Im not in this because of guilt, fear or obligation. Nor pity. I genuinely connect with him and I am more comfortable around him than most people in my social circle. Its just been incredibly hard as you know.

It will still benefit me to stay on and learn about BPD. I will need support in how to deal with this friendship. Its also good for me to keep looking into why Im here. What attracted me to this person in the first place and why Im in this situation. So Im still going to be hanging out here.

There is one thing he is not going to want to give up and thats our sleepovers. This however has to stop for my sanity. If I am going to be able to change the nature of this connection I need all physical contact to stop and I also dont want any of the wooing (youre so beautiful etc). This I will need help setting boundaries with.

He knows I am currently detaching. Last night I said to him that as he leaves me alone most of the time maybe he should consider doing just a bit more of it and be done with it. That it wouldnt take much more of what he was already doing, and maybe it would be more kind.

I know it was harsh. I know it was against the "tools". I needed to state my feelings and I did and it felt good to stand up for myself. It was a calm conversation and when I asked him to be kind by doing the right thing he said "youre right". BUT its not the solution neither of us wants. So I am going to try to change this.

If/when I get a chance I am going to talk to him about giving a real friendship a try. I do expect a dysregulation, a backlash, a punishment for my harsh words. I will try to stay calm and consistent and grab the first opportunity I get to have this conversation.

In fact, I ultimately learned to be compassionate about what was going on with her when she got that way. Empathy played a key role in that.

Compassion and empathy are going to come easier for me once Im no longer hurt by his abandonment. I will be less hurt by his abandonment if Im not in a romantic r/s with him.

Like you, I never believed the idealization. It's funny that we can depersonalize from the "positive" much easier than the "negative." For me, that was because I spent my entire life being told that I'm not good enough, etc. So, it was far easier to believe the bad than it was the good.

But its not just about "good enough" or not. Its also about being loved and accepted warts and all. Im incredibly uncomfortable with being put on a pedestal because thats a rough fall. Im nowhere near perfect, if the person loving on me is thinking so we are both set up for disappointment. But I deserve to be loved for who I am, forgiven for my mistakes, accepted as a flawed person.

If you're making more of an effort to communicate than he is, then you're chasing. Stop chasing.

Ive never chased before. Im completely bewildered that Im finding myself doing that.

My ex boyfriend was Schizophrenic. He sent me a letter telling me I was his one true love in life. It was a text book letter written by someone with that illness but it really got to me. I threw the letter out. A few weeks later he took his own life in a hospital room.

This happened a long time ago and Im still not over it. I think this is why I go overboard with my pwBPD.

Do you think that it would help to set a boundary for yourself wherein you won't communicate about anything meaningful via text? You don't have to express that to him, just don't do it. You can tell him things like, "What you are trying to tell me is really important to me and I'm afraid that I won't understand via text. I'll happily talk to you about it over coffee or on the phone when you're ready." and end the conversation at that point.

This is excellent advice. I think I will follow it precisely. I am trying to get off text messaging in general. I think I will start by making a statement about that so he wont take it personally. Then follow up the way you described.

My curiosity and insecurity killed me when I tried to do that and I kept engaging. That caused me even more problems.

Yes thats exactly it. This feeling and the feelings in general will not go away for a while so must have self control.

[Meili]

Meili I didnt feel like answering his message. I forced myself to after about an hour because I had made a conscious decision to not get into a retaliatory mode and to be as responsive and accountable in communication as I want others to be. But I did not feel like communicating with him at all.

I have struggled (I guess that I still do if the recent communications with my x that brought me here are any indication) this myself. For me, it is usually that I don't want to be rude and ignore her, but I really don't want to talk to her. Sometimes it's healthy to not respond, other times it is a matter that is indifferent. The important thing is that when/if we do decide to respond to our pwBPD, we respond on our terms. We get to choose when, how, and to what extent we respond.

I did a lot of fun stuff by myself this weekend and I was content and happy with how I spent my weekend. But I felt really lonely nonetheless. This is not a norm for me. It happens rarely and only when Im interacting with other people and the r/s (friendship or romantic, it can be either) is causing me some kind of pain.

Do you know what is behind that?

He is all over the map when it comes to defining the r/s.

For what it's worth, this is fairly common around here. I know that is trite and doesn't help much, but there is usually a reason behind it: we allow it to happen.

But, based on what you said about your decisions over the weekend, you are taking that power away from him. You are no longer going to allow him to dictate that part of your life. That is great!

It seems that most of us do this, and this was certainly the case for me at one point, because we hope for even the smallest breadcrumb so that we can at least have a taste of what we had and this continues to give us hope that we can get it back. The reality is that very few of us actually want back what we had. We want a healthier relationship. That starts with us. We have to stop allowing the control and begging for breadcrumbs... .being happy with what we get.

I know that I've said this before, but the best part of taking that power back is that it is a no lose situation. The other person either finds it attractive and we can build on that, or they don't and we have regained our strength to move forward in life. In no way is it a bad thing from that perspective.

I know NC is usually recommended... .

NC is only recommended when it is necessary to provide space for healing. Sometimes NC is not possible (like when children are involved), other times it's ill-advised because it can do more harm than good (like when you're trying to save a relationship). There really is no need for NC other than to allow for healing when it is not possible when there is still contact.

There is one thing he is not going to want to give up and thats our sleepovers. This however has to stop for my sanity. If I am going to be able to change the nature of this connection I need all physical contact to stop and I also dont want any of the wooing (youre so beautiful etc). This I will need help setting boundaries with.

This sounds like a really good plan!

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If/when I get a chance I am going to talk to him about giving a real friendship a try.

Why talk about it? Why not just show him? Lead by example and all that. Define your boundaries and maintain them. Friends don't typically share a bed or are romantically intimate. Also, depending on the level of friendship, only get to be privy to certain things. So, define your boundaries based on the type of friendship you want and maintain them. He'll start to learn and understand what is and what is not allowed.

What are you hoping to accomplish by starting a discussion on the topic?

Its also about being loved and accepted warts and all. Im incredibly uncomfortable with being put on a pedestal because thats a rough fall. Im nowhere near perfect, if the person loving on me is thinking so we are both set up for disappointment. But I deserve to be loved for who I am, forgiven for my mistakes, accepted as a flawed person.

You are not alone in this. These words are used around here quite a bit. There's a reason for that: they are true.

This happened a long time ago and Im still not over it. I think this is why I go overboard with my pwBPD.

That is a horrible thing that no one should have to experience. I can truly understand how that would be difficult to get passed.

This is excellent advice. I think I will follow it precisely. I am trying to get off text messaging in general. I think I will start by making a statement about that so he wont take it personally. Then follow up the way you described.

That sounds like a good way to handle it. Hopefully, he won't take it personally.

so must have self control.

A lot of us around here struggle with that. Trying not to react and being Wiseminded goes a long way on this.

[onelittleladybug]

Aaaagghhh Meili I wrote this long well thought out reply yesterday, was interrupted, left the laptop, came back. Finished. Hit post. I think you know what happened next. So frustrating. Im reminding myself to write this in a word program before posting. At least if I forget to hit refresh its saved and I dont lose all those words!

The important thing is that when/if we do decide to respond to our pwBPD, we respond on our terms. We get to choose when, how, and to what extent we respond.

Honestly Im struggling with this with many more people than my pwBPD. Im not a pushover with others like I am with him, but I still struggle. Case in point: Yesterday a person who I have a friendship with that I find unsatisfying texted in the middle of the work day asking me to pick her up at the airport. I decided to not respond until the end of the work day but I still got fairly upset. So even if I choose my responses appropriately I dont feel like my boundaries are good because of my internal emotional response.

Do you know what is behind that?

Yes. Heres the short answer: Im going through something in my life that can be compared to a divorce. I wrote this whole long story about my mother and our enmeshed r/s, edited it out to avoid boring anyone to tears but if you think its relevant and helpful to the overall story I will post it. Anyway this big change is incredibly liberating for me but it also comes with a lot of regret about wasted time and realizing Im getting older and I dont have a SO. Adding to that, this month I had to rent out a room in my house to a perfect stranger while waiting for my permanent roommate to be ready to move in which will happen this weekend. Ive been deeply uncomfortable with having the person thats at the house now because he is not who he claimed to be and makes his income taking advantage of other people so I dont trust him. He hardly ever leaves the house. Solitude was one of the things I was looking forward to so having someone sit around my house doing absolutely nothing at all, having to clean after them and try to make a forced conversation with them all the while hoping they leave for 5 minutes (there have been some 36 hr stay ins) just doesnt feel like the relief I was waiting for.

Back to feeling lonely last weekend. You might be wondering how does this relate to my pwBPD. I am comfortable with him (when things are calm and harmonious) and I am comfortable at his house. Its the nearest thing to feeling home outside my own home. I dont like being needy, but I needed a haven/retreat last weekend and it was not offered to me. That makes me feel like things are very one sided, that when my pwBPD is feeling needy he will demand things of me, but that I can never expect support when Im in the one in need. I am a hugely independent person. If anything I am too independent. But we all need something sometime. I have good friends and they can offer what pwBPD cant. But they werent free or available last weekend. They had a very good reason that I am happy about, so it was just timing.

To sum it up, having a stranger in my house, wanting to escape the situation to/with my pwBPD but finding myself being ignored by him made me feel lonely. I would not have felt lonely if I was enjoying the night myself in my beautiful home that Ive been putting money and time into.

The reality is that very few of us actually want back what we had. We want a healthier relationship. That starts with us. We have to stop allowing the control and begging for breadcrumbs... .being happy with what we get.

Thats exactly it. I think I am losing my appetite for breadcrumbs and ready for something healthier.

There really is no need for NC other than to allow for healing when it is not possible when there is still contact.

I completely agree and I think I can handle being in contact.

Why talk about it? Why not just show him? Lead by example and all that.

Thats a really good point and Im debating this now that you brought this up. Let me tell you what I see though and honestly if you still think I shouldnt make an announcement I will go with your advice on this.

We have talked before about the difference between words and actions. I would describe the situation with pwBPD like this: While he will say that we should just be friends, whats actually going on with him (and this is through words AND action) is that he cannot trust me and so intimacy will be put on hold while rebuilding trust. He now has a description for his BPD which is “trust issues”. And I am not really devaluing that they are truly trust issues. The problem is he is making it my responsibility to deal with said trust issues, which as you know and so many others I cannot do because they are after all his issues. What he wants is for me to stick around and wait for him to be ready (which in his mind happens when his trust is restored).

The friends label is usually put there as a punishment for whatever wrongdoing he perceives from me at the moment.

About 2 weeks ago we were as he worded “doing this” and then I cant remember what happened (its getting a bit worn to be honest) that made him not trust me again. But he was motivated, he went out and bought a new sheet set for his bed (because I prefer to have actual bedding and not just sleep on the bare mattress). He was getting all ready for me in a gf capacity. Then he went into a full on jealousy attack (I remember now) and it was hell in a handbasket.

So thats kind of why I feel like I should have this talk... ?

I still have all the feelings Im just thinking Im doing both of us a disservice by expecting him to be able to cope with anything more than a simple and easy friendship.

What are you hoping to accomplish by starting a discussion on the topic?

To prevent the repeated scenario where I get off from the couch after watching a movie, the dog is all excited thinking I will go up with them, my pwBPD looking all broken because Im not staying. Or the long push/persuasion conversation to stay.

That is a horrible thing that no one should have to experience. I can truly understand how that would be difficult to get passed.

Thanks. Throughout the years Ive believed that he might still be alive if I had not left. This is definitely playing into my weak boundaries with my pwBPD. I left completely, didnt even stay friends. A lot of it was just not being able to deal with the illness. The ex needed me, I dont want to go through something like this again and by that I dont mean the ultimate loss but being constantly haunted by what if.

[Meili]

UGH! I hate it when I've written a long or well thought out post and I lose it like that!

What did you mean about your internal emotional response, boundaries, and getting fairly upset? Upset in what way?

I think that when most of us dig deep, we find that our family of origin has some part to play (usually a big one) in our romantic relationships and the partners we choose. It may help us understand your situation better and help you process if you write about it.

The stuff about feeling lonely makes complete sense to me. Even Superman has his Fortress of Solitude. I am lucky, I get to have that every time that I get on my motorcycle (which is pretty much daily). I get to be part of, yet apart from, the world while in my own little world. I still long for the opportunity to share it with the pwBPD that brought me here, but I just accept that it will never be that way. Acceptance of certain things has helped me a lot along the way.

So, are you saying that you think that having "the talk" will result in some change within him?

I cannot speak for you friend, but I can tell you, as someone who has attempted suicide, at that point, when you've completely given up and the pain is great with no way to see anything else, there's not a whole lot that anyone can say or do. I'm guessing that you already know this, but it's entirely possible that your staying would have changed nothing in his world.