Fear: the final frontier

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, I am weighing the future of my marriage to uBPDw, who is normally high functioning but also a neurotic / psychotic Mrs. Hyde when she's not.

In a recent T visit, I was challenged to look at the fears that keep me stuck (married and indecisive).
One primary fear I have is what would become of her behavior during and post-divorce, as it concerns her treatment of the kids.  I kind of believe that enmeshment and parentification will turn into parental alienation, if not outright abuse and harm of the kids.   I've resolved most of my other fears of the unknown and scary process of divorce and its implications.  I also have wrestled out and overcome some of the fears of staying married, so that I can survive at least a little longer.

I know my wife means well as a mom, and is a moral, ethical, educated, functional woman.  I know also there are some core flaws that lead to her behaviors of manipulation, hopelessness, depression, anger (rage), and worse. 

I feel that I stay married, among other reasons, out of fear of damaging the kids, and inciting my wife to manipulate and turn on the kids.  Some of this fear is probably justified.  Because of that fear, I feel I am staying married as a buffer or insulation for the kids.  I also identify that she still is alone with them plenty of time, and she can harm them or not regardless of being married to me or not, so I don't quite buy into that fear much more.

Can anyone shed some light or counsel on how to balance a reasonable caution, with a paralyzing irrational fear?
Is there enough of an antidote to her possible harm done to the kids?
How do you settle fears you have about the choice to go?

Thanks in advance!

[SamwizeGamgee]

So, I am weighing the future of my marriage to uBPDw, who is normally high functioning but also a neurotic / psychotic Mrs. Hyde when she's not.

In a recent T visit, I was challenged to look at the fears that keep me stuck (married and indecisive).
One primary fear I have is what would become of her behavior during and post-divorce, as it concerns her treatment of the kids.  I kind of believe that enmeshment and parentification will turn into parental alienation, if not outright abuse and harm of the kids.   I've resolved most of my other fears of the unknown and scary process of divorce and its implications.  I also have wrestled out and overcome some of the fears of staying married, so that I can survive at least a little longer.

I know my wife means well as a mom, and is a moral, ethical, educated, functional woman.  I know also there are some core flaws that lead to her behaviors of manipulation, hopelessness, depression, anger (rage), and worse. 

I feel that I stay married, among other reasons, out of fear of damaging the kids, and inciting my wife to manipulate and turn on the kids.  Some of this fear is probably justified.  Because of that fear, I feel I am staying married as a buffer or insulation for the kids.  I also identify that she still is alone with them plenty of time, and she can harm them or not regardless of being married to me or not, so I don't quite buy into that fear much more.

Can anyone shed some light or counsel on how to balance a reasonable caution, with a paralyzing irrational fear?
Is there enough of an antidote to her possible harm done to the kids?
How do you settle fears you have about the choice to go?

Thanks in advance!

[teapay]

Is this challenge coming out of your MC or a separate T?

[flourdust]

Hi, Samwize. I believe we talked about this exact same issue a few months ago. What has changed since then? What have you learned or decided?

[byfaith]

Hello Sam,

How do you settle fears you have about the choice to go?

I know this may not sound very comforting, but with me the fears were never "settled". I just had to make the decision and let things take their course. I am steering the best I can right now.

Sam I don't remember the age of your children and how many kids you have but at any age I know this has to be very tough. I Feel for you.

Life happens to all of us including our children. Whatever decision you make you will be a good father through all of it, whether you stay or you go.
I hope the best for you

BF

[SamwizeGamgee]

teapay - Challenge came from my individual T.  The MC visit was just sort of an intake.  Our next joint MC is next week.  I find myself pretty candid, though I still hold back the full depth of my feelings and hold back the whole truth, since it would really be hurtful.
flourdust - (an indicator of the worn out carpet in my mind as I walk in circles over the same ground).  I certainly hope that I am always learning more.  My past posts were looking for impact on the kids, at least some of my concern was.

What's new is that I'm trying to identify and work on why I'm stuck.  I think I know the consequences of leaving.  I've also weighed out staying v. going.  I don't have much concrete proof of a "right" choice either way.  What I'm using for that decision is just my gut.  I am only half alive right now.  I can't endure forever.  I'm cornering myself into the decision of when to leave, not if.  Fear and indecision might be keeping me stuck.  I think now I'm looking to rationally dissect the fear(s). What am I afraid of doing? Why? Is it merited?


added: Byfaith - thank you very much.  That's life - as they say.  I contemplate that.  What if I decide to stay until my youngest is a teenager (she's 6).  Let's say I decide to stay in my "half alive" state and married for another 10 years, but, life decides that I die in 9.  What life have I had?  Have I done what's right?

[flourdust]

There will never be a "right" answer. You will keep getting external cues that tell you it's time to go, but your tolerance determines how much you can ignore those cues. Some people require extreme cues like physical violence or cheating before they can stop ignoring them. For some people, even those cues aren't enough.

What you can do -- what I did -- is to take steps toward the decision. For months, though I was unable to declare my intent to divorce to my wife, I made preparations. I did research, I met with attorneys, I gathered documentation and worked on a divorce petition. Divorce is a process - a long process - that can drag on, or turn into reconciliation, or go in many other ways. Even with my feeling stuck, to an extent, I moved forward on the steps, until I was ready to make that declaration.

[ForeverDad]

There will never be a "right" answer. You will keep getting external cues that tell you it's time to go, but your tolerance determines how much you can ignore those cues. Some people require extreme cues like physical violence or cheating before they can stop ignoring them. For some people, even those cues aren't enough.

What you can do -- what I did -- is to take steps toward the decision. For months, though I was unable to declare my intent to divorce to my wife, I made preparations. I did research, I met with attorneys, I gathered documentation and worked on a divorce petition. Divorce is a process - a long process - that can drag on, or turn into reconciliation, or go in many other ways. Even with my feeling stuck, to an extent, I moved forward on the steps, until I was ready to make that declaration.

I agree with flourdust, there will never be the right time, perfect time or whatever.  Yes, the first steps are hard, but once you see your path and start on it, each subsequent step will become much, much easier.  Progress, like recovery, is a process and not an event.

From Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce :
As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."

Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos, or whatever you and the children face regularly.

Only you can decide what shape your future will take.  But understand that "staying for the children" isn't necessarily setting a good example.  When I separated and through the entire divorce I only had alternate weekends and a 3 hours evening in between with my preschooler.  That was well over two years.  Yet at the end of the divorce I walked out with equal time.  I couldn't be sure of that when we separated, those earl days were dark, but I knew I couldn't stay and either set a good example or avoid punishing false allegations.

[Panda39]

... .I've also weighed out staying v. going. I don't have much concrete proof of a "right" choice either way.  

What came to my mind was neither choice is the "right" choice... .a best choice.  But the choice that you want... .what you think is the best choice... .a happy healthy marriage and family is not on the table. So you are now left with two wrong choices or not best choices both with pitfalls and risks but those are your choices.

You've been doing a lot of research and planning you have a lot of information already. I think you know what the better choice is.  What I see holding you back and what kept me in my marriage far too long was fear.  

My mantra is "Glitter in the Air" by Pink

I challenge you to push through the fear and make the best of a not best choice.    

Panda39

[lpheal]

This is a great topic, and you correctly identify it as the final frontier.

For several months I've been thinking of a Star Wars analogy, since I am of that generation. For Luke to become a Jedi, he has to confront and defeat his greatest fear (Darth Vader) to become a Jedi. The process of understanding and facing fear is where I hope I will grow from this generally terrible experience. I feel like I will be ready to move on when I am no longer afraid of my wife's behavior or the consequences of leaving the marriage. I realize there will still be some level of fear of uncertainty and the unknown, but not so much I can't overcome it.

[Panda39]

Maybe a better mantra... .at least more sci fi... .




Seriously, none of us knows what the future will hold but if you wait until you can predict the future to make a decision about this or anything else you will be waiting a long time.

[SamwizeGamgee]

This has been a good thread for me. Thanks.
What's helpful is to start putting a name to fear.  It reminds me of when I got to a point at which I could verbalize and understand that I was a victim of emotional and verbal abuse.  Once it had a name and explanation, it unlocked something inside me.
Looking at figuring out my fear, I can face it. 
The traditional answer to fear is faith.  Faith in something or someone.  I have been pushed onto thin ice as far as my faith in organized religion, since it was dogma that got and kept me married. But, I have faith in my creator, and in myself. The next steps are scary, as I have those two bad options as choices.
Lots to take in.

[teapay]

There are things that you can do to lessen your fears in addition to just raw, grit your teeth faith and throwing everything to providence.

Is your wife mistreating your kids now or is your concern that it would start after you separate?  If you have concerns about it now, isn’t that something you should be bringing up in MC.  I’ve had to bring these concerns in MC.  I’ve found shedding light on these types of issues is usually beneficial in addressing the issue and alleviating the problem.  My W hates when light gets shined on these things to outsiders.  It doesn’t prevent all bad behavior, but behavior tends to improve, since she knows she will be held accountable to some degree.  If you separate, the welfare of the children and how they are treated and whether parental alienation may occur would be an important issue keep light on.  You should get it on the table and get on the right side of it.  As always, document, document and document, so you can address it.

The more time you have with your children the better.  You might not get full custody, but pushing 50/50 might be the most beneficial for your kids.  I realize that might be difficult.  I have 5 kids too which leads to a host of practical problems when considering custody.  Still, if you are concerned, getting more custody would help you kids.  The presence of healthy fathers in kid’s lives is well established as one of the most important factors in kids growing up and having manageable lives.

I’m assuming you have a good relationship with your kids.  This can be somewhat of a buffer against parental alienation.  I’ve had to address this kind of stuff.  Is there any reason for you to believe they will be overly susceptible to it if you are involved in their lives?  If it happens, is that stuff going to stick to you?  The more involvement you have and the more you talk with you kids the less long term impact this will have.  If it is bull___ and they realize it, it will back fire on the parent who does it.  Are you talking to you kids?  Do you know how they feel about you, your W, your household and life in general?  Having a good grasp on this things and addressing them could provide you with some relief.

Assuming your W gets majority custody, but doesn’t mistreat or alienate your kids significantly, do you have concerns that she can’t manage 5 kids by yourself, that she will crap out?  After experiencing high functioning and low functioning BPD, I can tell you her high functionality is a huge plus and benefit to all on so many basic practical levels.  Low functioning is severely damaging to kids on many fronts if it is allowed to persist and while ejecting an ill parent from the household may help decrease damage, it entails its own damage too.

Also consider that you might be a risk adverse person and overly fearful, at least in some areas of your life.  You may be fearful regarding how you will be perceived by others or getting paint brushed or tarnished because you leave or wish to leave circumstances you are unhappy with.  These are internal and integral and hard to lessen, outside facing them directly, whichever way they go.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks Teapay. My wife is currently fairly high functioning, with the caveat that one little bad thing (i.e. something at home, or her part time job, or job search) can depress her for a few days or more.  However, she used to be worse - when I was worse too.  [side note: I realized how much of my life I changed when I changed myself. If I acted better, it seemed suddenly everyone else did too - which led me to blame myself for the past dysfunction, and wonder if I could fix all the problems].  There were times in which she would get the car and be gone for most of the day, gone crying somewhere.  Also days that she would just be practically inert and cry and mope for the day.  Fortunately, she pulled this when I was home, so that I could still provide for the kids and run the house.  She was also ready to do more drastic things too.  I had a fear, credible I think, that she might one day take the kids in the van and drive off a bridge or something.  But, she seems to be farther from that state of mind now. 

I think you hit on something that even with her high-function self, she would get overwhelmed by taking care of the five kids without me - which could lead to another depression and risk of harm. Or, it could lead to a moderation of her assumed role of being the care provider for the kids (I suspect she sees herself as the only one who can take care of the kids, in spite of my full involvement at home).  This is just something that has to play out if we actually separate and go through custody arrangements and modifications.  I want to begin and end my custody goals at 50/50.  I can handle more, and a little less, but, I believe I must stay current and involved to keep the kids in a healthier home for enough time. 

I have five kids, the oldest is home for the summer, off at college the rest of the time. She is surprisingly well-grounded and would be a good role model for the younger kids.  Too bad I won't have her as a year-round help and shepherd for her siblings.  On the other hand, good for her to get out and away from this toxic soup.  My D16 was at one time my number one fan, but, in the past year has stonewalled me, and has done a lot of really hurtful things to me.  It seemed almost as though when her mom got over her darkness, she passed it on to D16.  There might be some truth there.  I feel sometimes that my wife is creating a surrogate battle with me as her dad and D16 as her.  She has a very poor relationship with her parents, part of which is practical NC with her dad.  I know a girl tends to side with her mom, and it feels like I've lost much of the contact with D16 under the guidance of mom (who proclaims to me to know so much more about D16, and know what D16 is dealing with, and thinking, and feeling) - (btw - I'd trust a normal wife with this advice because I've never been a teenage girl, but if my wife reads my daughter's mind as well as she reads my mind, she is way off).  Then there's S12 - who is probably on the autism spectrum and has a grave emotional regulation disability.  Then there's D9, and D6 who are daddy's girls all the way, and my joy and real reason for wanting to come home at the end of the day.  If it weren't for them, and my overzealous dog, coming home would just feel like working nights in the psych ward. 

That said, i cant' think of specifics that would be relevant in MC to document right now.  The unsettling stuff was in the past and on the surface she presently is a (self)righteous, adequate mom.  As an aside, I think I might be grabbing onto BPD as an excuse to justify ending a marriage I have never liked.

In sum, there are articulate reasons to stay married, just to be present in the family life all the time.  I have fears, with justification.  I agree that like the young Luke, I'll have to face them.  I had another Star Wars visualization as I wait for something I can use as "proof" that I need a divorce. I see Obi Wan facing Vader on the Death Star, and saying "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can ever imagine."  Meaning, don't mistake my kindness for weakness and I have prepared for divorce and got myself much stronger than you think. Or, go ahead and disregulate just one more time... .

I started this thread to look at my fears keeping me stuck.  They are there, some are credible.  I wish I had that elusive crystal ball to work out the best next move.

[teapay]

I can relate to a lot of your post.  My kids are 12D, 10D, 8S, 4D and 4S.  My kids are on the moody side and my 12D has been in counseling which she benefited greatly.  My 4S has a language disability.  My kid’s relationship with my W is good and their relationship with me is good too.  I'm pretty involved with them.

From this post and many of your other posts, at the most basic level, it seems as if you are doing well yourself and are managing your W/family well considering the circumstances, although you are unhappy and unfulfilled in your marriage.  Overall, however, it seems you believe your kids would do better and have better futures with your continued full time presence, influence, and as an intact family, and it would be a greater risk to them if the marriage and family were dissolved.  In these respects, it is fairly rational to stay and manage the family for your kids.  In self disclosure, I stay because I believe my family is better off with the family intact and with me driving it and managing it overall, although I am doing well myself and am fairly happy.  It hasn’t always been that way when my W was doing worse and I had to set up boundaries that might have led and could still lead to divorce.  Overtime, through those boundaries, the family has stabilized for awhile now and that is good for the family.  The health of the family is something I monitor and actively address as issues arise, be it wife or child.  I watch where the scales of risk and benefit stand and those boundaries are the bulwarks which keep the benefit gauge reading in the green.

You’ve outlined some points which may be driving your fears to stay.   If you are doing well now and your family is doing better than before, your wife included, what are the main drivers of you wanting to leave, which could be fears of staying or something else?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Very useful insight.  I'm glad when someone can make sense of my usually indecisive writing and feed it back to me with clarity!

Last year I had reached what I call my Zen Garden level.  I felt that I had the knowledge and coping skills needed to maintain course, and watch the health of the family - as you described reading the "gauges."  I think I have been less certain than you sound in your family, on my boundaries and what benefits they have in the family.  Many of my boundaries are fueled by a decision of never again will I go through this crap, and my DGAF meter is topped off.

If that was the case, and I had reached a level of status quo, I should have established a long term living mindset.  I felt that slip away this year.  I described in a T session this year, that it seems my psyche is waking-up, and I can't stay with status quo.  My Zen Garden level wasn't meant to last - like most things Zen

Although I can't quite articulate what I fear about going, my desire to divorce is based on a visceral, soul-moving, almost desperate, life-or-death emotional feeling.  I used to describe the sensation of being married as being what I imagine of drowning, or being buried alive - with the exception that those other events are over quickly.  Not that I am against marriage.  I believe in it and still support the idea.  My rational mind overrides the desperation to get out of my marriage, but, somewhere on a core level, this marriage and my drive to survive seem incompatible.  I don't know if anyone else has felt this way about their marriage, and I'm pretty sure it's not just due to BPD or possible BPD behaviors.  Maybe I'm sick, broken, or not right.  This is just a base, though repressed, desire.  I checked myself into therapy in 2015 because I couldn't see which was worse between Death, Divorce, and Marriage.  

[teapay]

It seems like despite all the positive changes made to yourself and your family you’ve come to the end of your ability and resources to cope.  In a sense that kind of makes the decision for you regardless of your fears.  I mean, for you personally, there is no way other than downward without a more significant change in the status quo that would bolster your coping resources.  Even trying to stay and maintain the healthier environment you established you will eventually fail because you will eventually lose the ability to maintain it.  Many of your fears, real or not, will eventually manifest themselves, possibly in a worse way, because both you and your W will be compromised.  You can delay and try to kick the can down the road, try to get your kids into adulthood or at least at little older and more mature, maybe reducing damage.  In your present state mind and ability to cope, is this realistic or sort of a wishful gamble?  Based on how you are doing now, do you think you will handle the fall out and all your fears from a divorce now or three years for now?  If so, that would be an argument for kicking the can.  If not, it would support moving forward with separation sooner than later, as you might be better able to manage the challenge.

Personally, I can tell you that pondering a divorce in a large family context can be quite overwhelming, especially if one of the parents is mentally compromised, won’t or can’t work, or otherwise can’t be reliable, yet can still exert a host of rights that will only be legally challenged in severe cases where it can be objectively established.  It can seem impossible to find practical workable solutions regarding custody and finances that does not seem catastrophic to all involved and provides the kids a safe and healthy environment, unless the family can bear the financial brunt or has support family nearby.  Having a larger family similar to yours, I’ve faced this scenario more immediately in the past, and while it didn’t result in divorce, it is a real and ever present scenario in my life and that my W can trigger unilaterally if she wants.  From that experience, and from the general  experience of being a father and married with someone dx with BPD, I’ve learned to put myself first and keep my mental and physical health paramount, because whatever the situation, if I crash so will everything else and much harder too.

[SamwizeGamgee]

That's fair and well spoken.  Thanks yet again.
On the outside, I have what it takes to continue to stay married.  I've found coping skills.  I have some useful self-care tools.  My wife is more competent now than last year. I have a long term marriage and my wife / exwife will stake a huge claim of whatever I earn or merit financially.  I certainly fall under the category in which it's "cheaper to keep her" and avoiding poverty, and financial chaos, is a convincing reason to stay married.  I am also in my mid 40's and don't have ambitions of a new start.  I want to just stay married for the kids' sake and to keep stability.  I also don't feel much like going through a separation, household move, and separate households for the kids.

Nevertheless, I think you point out something correctly.  I may have reached the end of what I can handle, in spite of my positive changes, and skill at long suffering.  I don't know what I would gain by waiting, and truly I am not sure I have it in me.  Maybe others do.  I know fer certain there are others here who suffer worse abuse than I do, and yet remain married, and succeed in one realm or another.  I believe I should be that person, but I can't seem to find it.  And yet, there's something holding me back.  I thought maybe it was a fear of something, but, what?

I have to take this all in.

[teapay]

How dependent is your W on you with taking care of the kids, the household and financially, since you mentioned she is very high functioning?  Is she working full time and making reasonable money?

[SamwizeGamgee]

She has been making efforts at part time work, spotty at best.  Now she's found a part time gig that uses her talent set very well, and seems like it might hold her interest.  It's not only financially better, but I think emotionally healthy for her too.  She could be doing a lot more and making a lot more, but, with time perhaps she will.
When I'm at home I'm a fully engaged dad in household, child care, chores, repairs, and parenting.  She sees herself as the overworked mom who has to do it all, but I've probably got dinner on, dishpan-hands, kid bedtime, and buckets of laundry done in the meantime.  I don't discredit her efforts, which are enormous with all the kids we have, but she'll have a reality check if we separate. 

[teapay]

While you are still married one of the biggest practical things you can do to help yourself, your kids and your W/exW would be to get her employed full time before you separate.  Not everyone gets that chance and the timing seem right.  All your kids are school age and you have some adult children and pre/teenagers, so the arguments for her not working are likely poor.   Her working should help on both the custody and financial fronts for both households and is something you can bring up and push in MC.  If your W has any medical issues, she’ll need the employer insurance benefit because she can’t stay on yours, otherwise she’ll need to enjoy the benefits of ACA.  If you have a supportive family nearby that would be to your advantage, maybe not legal sense, but in a practical sense.  It doesn’t sound like her family will be a resource to her.  As you describe it, your wife is probably in for a very rude awakening in the event that you separate.  High functioning can go to low functioning pretty quickly.  This could create a lot of problems and make things a lot tougher than they have to be, but if you are doing well it will ultimately turn to your advantage.  If you are going to get out, spend your efforts prepping the ground for a better situation for yourself and your kids.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Off track a little... .But, I've been supporting, hoping, and praying for her to get a career type job and not sell herself short for a few years now. Ever since the youngest started school, I've been perplexed with why she is so determined to be a stay home mooch mom when she's the only one at home, and we pretty much split housework.  Like trying to get a teenager to leave the house or something - some do, some don't.

[teapay]

Sounds like your wife is well taken care of.  Sugary.  Sad that she might have thrown it away.  But “sic semper morbus animi”.   It may still take alittle while for you to make you decision and act upon it, but as I mentioned you still have available to you some things you can do to protect yourself and make things better for yourself when that happens.  It might be worth revisit a lawyer and plot out a strategy to those ends.  You may have reached a limit, but are you so spent that you can’t do some of this to take care of yourself?

[Mika1739]

Trust in a higher power, prayer or spirituality--that's what changed everything for me.  Your ego needs humbling, you speak like you have omnipotent powers but you don't, no human does, so you worry about things you have no control over anyway which is counterproductive.  They say God is love, meaning wherever there is love there to is God. fear and love cannot coexist. 

I am really speaking to you as I would speak to my former self.  Start with faith, even atheists have tremendous faith. Spirituality is not to be confused with religion.  Faith? Of course you have faith.  When's the last time you flew on an airplane? Did you meet the pilot and make sure his credentials checked out, did you meet the mechanic who made sure all the bolts on the engines and landing gear were right, did you go to the flight tower and meet the air traffic controller to make sure the thousands of cris-crossing flights were timed perfectly?  Of course not, you had faith in the government who regulates the industry and the airlines responsibility--all the millions of controls that work exactly as planned you never thought once about--you have faith.  Apply this to your issues in your post.

You have faith everyday, go to work and have faith the life has meaning and you have purpose for existence.  You weren't put here to live in fear.  Follow your purpose and find faith in your creator.  Read the Alchamist to get your spiritual juices flowing.

[Panshekay]

It's very scary when it's our children's childhood that is at stake.  Have you ever been in a situation, maybe had a job where you haven't really been very happy and perhaps even hated that job but stayed because you made good money or didn't have another job, then you are finally able to quit that job... .then you look back and think "how did I ever do that job for 5 years, or 10 years, I should have left that job  a long time ago, but I stayed for all the wrong reasons and was miserable"?

 I know I have a few times. I didn't realize how badly I was treated  or how unhappy I was until I was away from it. That's how our son feels now. He thinks "wow, look at everything I put up with and what my kids were exposed to for 7 years. Why didn't I leave sooner?"  Like ForeverDad says about he rather be from a broken home than live in one. It's very true. No mater what you decide it's not going to be easy or perfect. Our son says this... .at least the time I spend with my son now, his time with just me is with someone who is not stressed out walking on eggshells.  Our time together is not wondering what someone else is going to be angry about, he at least has a home that is stress free, he is free to be just a kid without having a parent constantly around him who is a maniac throwing and breaking things, threatening suicide and screaming. Yes, he still has that when he is with his mom... .but he doesn't have it that way a 100 percent of the time anymore. He has one parent who hopefully he uses as his role model.  It won't be easy, she may alienate your children, you will have a fight on your hands but your kids will have a stable home with you at least 50 percent of the time.  It's not perfect or ideal but those are the facts.  Make the choice, while the choice is still yours to make. How many times have you heard that they find someone else and take the kids and leave?    If you think you have reached your limit, make a plan, talk with a attorney... .look at your children and the lives they are seeing you live now.  It's not an easy decision, but one that has to be made.   Our past predicts our future unless a change is made. Blessings to you... .

[insideout77]

Off track a little... .But, I've been supporting, hoping, and praying for her to get a career type job and not sell herself short for a few years now. Ever since the youngest started school, I've been perplexed with why she is so determined to be a stay home mooch mom when she's the only one at home, and we pretty much split housework.  Like trying to get a teenager to leave the house or something - some do, some don't.

your whole exchange with Teapay, literally brings me to tears.

To me the best analogy is like sports debating, whats better 5th or 6th place in the standings.  their both the same, anything past the wildcard at 2nd is garbage. 

a BPD is a adult Toddler. you both know it and I truly do understand why you want to bury your heads in the sand, I did it too. I said the same thing. Stability , better for the kids, Financials ... .excuses to the sky ... .bla bla bla...        

 I just hit 40,   2 years out of a 13 years marriage with a High Functioning BPD and 5 kids 13-11-9-7-3.   

The only  thing I can say is I truly can't believe I am where I am now... Never thought Freedom was possible and like you was preparing to just buckle up and think im screwed for life. Luckily by fluke I took the plunge, brutal Custody battle and won my 50/50 and got an ironclad agreement and its all settled... The kids have never been happier, and I feel like a kid in a candy store every day i breathe freedom.      Looking back i honestly can't believe how i didn't see the obvious strain and pressure the kids were dealing with .   Ex was convinced the kids were clueless ...     gosh , the tension is gone, they have more stability now than ever and they also have their father back...   before divorce he was just a body going through the motions...

You got to climb your mountain, there is no cable car to the top... when are you going to start climbing?  when you get there, you will be on top of the world!

Hugs -

PS - We all know history repeats itself - if you stay on "for the kids"? they will likely go on to marry another BPD (bc thats all the know, they were taught to accept abuse) and start the cycle again and then please explain to me, how "you were staying the kids" made a drop sense?

[Panda39]

Also, the stuff that your wife can do to hurt your kids if you divorce she can still do from within the marriage too.  She can do things to alienate your children from you even when you live in the same house.  My SO's uBPDxw could have still convinced their daughter that her "Family Trust" would pay for college out east.  Being divorced doesn't mean that she suddenly starts dysfunctional behaviors that hurt the kids, she's already doing that now.

The difference in the case of my SO's daughter is that because her parents were divorced she had a safe place to land with her dad, she had a dad that could help her get back on her feet, they could focus on D20 and they could do all of this without the crazy making of the ex.

It seems to me that part of your fear is that you will make things worse for your kids, but what is worse than living with an unhappy dad and mentally ill mother?  From my experience in my own marriage I thought I was protecting my son from his alcoholic dad but I wasn't.  Shortly, after my divorce anxiety surfaced in my son.  He had things going on that he kept hidden from me that only appeared after we left the dysfunction and it was "safe" for him to have his own reactions to things.  His role in the family during the marriage was to keep his head down and he did and his feelings were stuffed and hidden because he didn't want to make the situation worse. With therapy he was able to get a lot out and learn some tools to help with his anxiety and some depression too.  If I had stayed in my marriage I would have never seen or known any of this.  So there is another piece at play here what your kids are really thinking, feeling or internalizing.

Same goes for my SO daughters, yes they had to learn some hard lessons post divorce and they are still learning them but if they had not learned them where would they be now as young women.  Learning things the hard way isn't necessarily bad, it isn't easy, but not necessarily bad.  They learned that their mom had issues, they learned that their mom could turn on them, they learned that they have side effects from their parents marriage, they learned they could trust their dad, they learned who could be the parent to provide the things they need, they learned who the parent was they could count on, they learned that they are strong and capable, one learned that she has PTSD and is doing the things she has to to manage it (living with her mom would have only aggravated this).  

My fear in leaving my own marriage was fear that I would fail my son, that I couldn't do it financially that I couldn't provide the material things I thought he needed.  I was not thinking at all of his mental health and emotional needs... .I thought he was okay that I was protecting him from his dad and I was in some ways... .argumentative drunk dad I kept directed at me... .but my son still was there watching this, feeling the energy, learning my co-dependent behaviors and his dad's alcoholic behaviors.

I now believe I would have truly failed my son if I had stayed in my marriage.

My leaving my marriage was a catalyst for change... .

I left and was happier, stronger (I could do this!), my self esteem grew, I grew emotionally, my social life came back, and a year out I met the wonderful man I've been with for 7 years now.

My ex lost his wife, his house, was an EOW dad, got his 3rd DUI, lost his retirement to pay for lawyers, had a breath analyzer put in his car, went to work smelling of alcohol, lost his job and hit rock bottom.  He finally couldn't deny the alcoholism anymore and got help and has been sober for 5+ years.

My son was able to express his feelings, was able to see his mom no longer be co-dependent, was able to see his dad become sober... .he was able to learn that people can change and he was able to see both of his parents model healthier behaviors.

For my SO I'm not gonna sugar coat it here he had a really rough 2 year divorce... .he and his daughters now call that period the "dark times" and it was really hard for everyone (drama, parental alienation, kids spying on their dad and reporting back to mom, false allegations of child abuse, mom was evicted 2X... .).  But they all got through it and things are no longer dark.  Things are not perfect both daughters have by choice reduced contact with their mom D20 is pretty much NC and D16 is Low Contact and both are negotiating their relationship with their mom and their feelings around that relationship.  But because their parents divorced they can process this stuff without the constant FOG, drama, and emotions from their mom... .they have the space to work on themselves and this relationship.

So... .2 examples where leaving was not only a good choice but healing choice for everyone (well with the exception of my SO's uBPDxw who lives like it's groundhogs day doing the same behaviors over and over again never understanding that she might have problems)

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Wow.  I log off for a night, and look what happens! 
 
Earlier I described that this year felt like my psyche was waking up. Several of you are reminding me that I've been hitting the snooze button.   I still hesitate since my wife is doing well these days, and we play the role of a great family outside the house.  That, and I don't have a good story about my wife being drunk, unfaithful, or raging and breaking furniture, hitting me, etc.  This is one of those times in life where I hear my own drumbeat, one no one else can hear.

Thanks for bolstering my spirits everyone.  I know it's a hard road no matter which way I turn.

[ForeverDad]

By now you should know that you can't change her or fix her, or at least not very much or for very long.  Look up the 5 stages of Grieving a Relationship Loss.  (Maybe you already have?)  Acceptance is the last one, I believe, and once there then that can let you move forward.

I don't recall how bad your family life is.  Many here reported the pattern that their relationships got worse over time, whether slowly or by leaps and bounds.  The pattern is that without (emotionally neutral) therapy it seldom gets better, at least not for long.  It's that roller coaster comparison... .at first it's thrilling, then you start getting motion sick and need to get off.  Dysfunctional is the educated phrase, unhealthy is the everyday term.  When it worsens closer to the extreme end, then you need to give more attention to how the children are impacted.  If it's bad for you (an adult hopefully able to handle difficult situations) then imagine how it is for the kids (children).

[formflier]

Have any of your wife's siblings divorced?  How did that go?

Here is the thing.  Somehow I think you need to form an opinion about this question.

Where can I have the most influence on my kids?  :)ivorced or married.  

Get that answer and stick with it, until the facts on the ground (in the r/s) change in such a way that you come up with a different answer.

For me, I've seen the way divorce is done.  Suicide attempts, arrests, drug an alcohol use (and of course... .none of this is "their fault".

So... .this gives me a realistic view of what I will "face" should I ever divorce and yes... .I have spoken with many lawyers and I have strategies generally ready... .should that ever come to pass.

I also have a realistic view of what I do and don't influence by staying married.

Somehow all of that goes in a formula and out pops my answer that... for now... I'm staying married.

And yes... I've also carved out my own life and when times are good with my wife I enjoy them... .and when they are not... I enjoy something else.

So... .my challenge would be for you to list out things that concern you about your kids and then reasonable strategies to address those concerns.  Will that be more likely to happen in or out of the marriage.  Realizing it will likely take work... .a lot of work... .on your part... in either scenario.

Thoughts?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

None of our siblings or parents are divorced on either side. That's against a lot of odds to think about it, and we've both got large families.  

What's perplexing to me right now is that I'm sort of running on left-over memories and lessons learned from my life with my wife in the past.  On the surface, she's been trouble-free for a while.  If you suddenly appeared in our home today, I would look like the guy that moved from the bedroom to the basement and doesn't do much to build the relationship, and has barricaded  his heart.  Barring the slightly extreme lows when something doesn't go well for my wife, she could pass for a normal, healthy person.  Combined with my withdrawal, she would get the sympathy vote too.  In MC all eyes are sometimes on me, waiting for me to engage or disengage and decide whether to divorce or put effort into the marriage again.   Currently, I feel very clouded on that issue, and wonder if I am the problem, and the abuser.

There's a great debate as for what to do in order to influence my kids.  Let's imagine that they think things are good at home. Maybe not seeing the unhappiness and the lack of open conflict makes it a house in which they can survive well enough into adulthood - and sort out the rest of their problems and character development then.  Maybe that will work.  On the other hand, I have to matter for something.  If I continue to model a marriage in which I am doing all I can do for the kids, but in marriage remain in the mind set that I'm just waiting for my turn to die to be at peace, I am not leading or helping the kids.  No matter what I do, my actions will influence the kids.  

A few years ago, I was working in the yard, and had been trying to free a fence post from hard-packed, clay ground.  I worked and worked, and fought that fence post.  It seemed as though it became an epic battle of wills.  Finally, the post unexpectedly broke in the ground.  I had been pushing and forcing with all my ability, and when the post broke, I hit the ground harder than anything I remember.  Furthermore, I landed on a brick that hit my ribs just so that it knocked my wind out - in addition to the shock of the break and fall.  Maybe it's a sign on my age nowadays, but I remember laying there and thinking to myself that for the first time in my life I didn't spring back up.  Regardless of injury (and I've had some really good ones), I have always gotten back up quickly, and back into the fray.  I lay there winded and in stunned pain, debating if anyone would come help if I went missing for a while or should I crawl for it, if I could even get back up.  This was the first time that I can remember an incident more or less determining what I did. I have always been able - and driven - to want to get back up.  Today, maybe I'm laying on the emotional ground after something inside broke.  For the first time I am not wanting a better relationship, marriage, or even a role model for the kids.  I'm winded, and injured, and I can't seem to will myself up and back into the fight.

Maybe my full appreciation for my marriage, and how bad it is (or good, in all fairness), regardless of fault, has hit me.  Right now, I don't know that I could follow through with a good decision if one lay plain as day in front of me.  A feature of me not caring as much anymore is that I am more likely to let the truth slip.  There's a lot of truth that would be hurtful to my wife.  I've kept her happier and maintained by hiding the mountains of hurtful truths.

So, yes, I suppose the kids benefit from having me around and having a mom that's not threatened with abandonment.  I suppose it's not as bad as it could be.
I don't know why I just shared that story, but, at least I'm diverging from my own post