Imputed income

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have a question for the community here. I am almost two years into separation/divorce process with my x who is an uBPD. She was a SAHM for 14 years and we have 5 children together. Paying alimony is not a question but it has to do with imputed income for calculations. She has yet to try and find a job. She says that she can't work because she has to care for our children. Actually her mother watches our children the majority of the time as she lives with her mother. She has no physical or mental disability other than uBPD. She worked before having our first child but made a little more than minimum wage so I don't believe that she could start off earning much more than minimum wage now. My question is this, if/when our case goes before a judge, would he/she likely impute her income when calculating child support and alimony? Everyone that I've talked to says that will be the case. Most likely at minimum wage. She has to start somewhere. I mentioned once that she may have to start with a job working evenings so that myself, her family and my family can help care of our children so that child care expense doesn't come into play. I know laws vary by state but looking for your experiences both as those paying support and receiving.

[40days_in_desert]

I have a question for the community here. I am almost two years into separation/divorce process with my x who is an uBPD. She was a SAHM for 14 years and we have 5 children together. Paying alimony is not a question but it has to do with imputed income for calculations. She has yet to try and find a job. She says that she can't work because she has to care for our children. Actually her mother watches our children the majority of the time as she lives with her mother. She has no physical or mental disability other than uBPD. She worked before having our first child but made a little more than minimum wage so I don't believe that she could start off earning much more than minimum wage now. My question is this, if/when our case goes before a judge, would he/she likely impute her income when calculating child support and alimony? Everyone that I've talked to says that will be the case. Most likely at minimum wage. She has to start somewhere. I mentioned once that she may have to start with a job working evenings so that myself, her family and my family can help care of our children so that child care expense doesn't come into play. I know laws vary by state but looking for your experiences both as those paying support and receiving.

[soundofmusicgirl]

I don't know what state you are in. But my DH child support was calculated in ID and there they will impute a minimum income of 15k per year. Even if she earns below that threshold.

You can also argue the case of "being wilfully underemployed". But I think in your case with her not having worked for 14 yrs and having 5 children that might be difficult.
Otherwise I would have her produce her CV in court and her education (college degree?) and her last income. But again, with not having worked for 14 yrs it might be difficult.

[40days_in_desert]

Thank you soundofmusicgirl. I guess my stance is that she needs to start somewhere because she/we can't support two households with one income long term. She doesn't have a degree and no recent marketable skills. At some point, wouldn't she be expected to start somewhere?

[soundofmusicgirl]

yes, you would think so.

But you also have to understand that there are BPDs out there that are incapable of working.
My husbands BPDxw is one example. She simply feels entitled to everyone paying for her and the children. She now is seeking a mental health diagnosis for one of the children so that she can get social security disability benefits for both children.
Unfortunately I believe that one day she will make my stepsons pay for her upkeep.

[RedPill]

Hi 40days,
I personally agree that eventually she should be expected to earn an income. Unfortunately, I do not know how the court will handle it. Even if she does begin to work more, how do you verify it down the road? Will that be another court visit? Hopefully the courts will be reasonable and see that your income is not sufficient for both households indefinitely. I'm in the same boat as you there. My ustbxBPDw does work a little but is willfully underemployed with a checkered work history. She has earned quite a bit in the past before bailing on that job. We only have 1 child, a D15 so childcare isn't as much of a factor.

I'm interested to hear how it develops for you. Sometimes I wish I was wealthy enough to just pay her and cut ties. That would be so much easier.
Good luck!
--
RP

[40days_in_desert]

I make pretty good money although only half as much as I used to. She moved three states away two years ago to separate under the guise of working on our marriage. When I realized that was not what she really wanted, I moved here to be near my kids. Fortunately, my employer allowed me to stay but had to step down in position with less pay. I have lowered my standard of living as much as possible and am quite content with less but can't go any less than where I am now unless I live in my truck. She probably will have a hard time keeping a job. She went through 5-6 jobs the two years before she quit her last to be a SAHM until I asked a friend of mine to hire her. In that job there was no specific time for her to be at work so she was never late. Late is typically 1-2 hours after start time. I'll post updates. Thank you for the feedback.

[Panda39]

My SO was married for 17 years and his uBPDxw, was college educated and had some work history but had been a stay at home mom for many years. She was awarded alimony for 5 years imputed for minimum wage. In the normal world alimony is put in place for the stay a home person to get a cushion to get education, training, or start working.  My SO's uBPDxw has done nothing with her 5 years but that is now her problem after July she is off the payroll... .sink or swim.

Panda39

[40days_in_desert]

And despite what she has done (discarding me for a replacement), I am still willing to provide that "cushion" to help get her on her feet. If she does nothing with it, that's on her. Agreed.

[ForeverDad]

And despite what she has done (discarding me for a replacement), I am still willing to provide that "cushion" to help get her on her feet. If she does nothing with it, that's on her.

Ah hem... .Why doesn't the replacement provide support?

Likely all the children are in school or will be old enough for school soon, right?  Well, then she can surely work for 4-6 hours while the kids are away.  Often schools or other programs are available for after school until a parent gets off work.  The point is that you can't afford to let her make excuses not to work.  Millions of families face the facts and realize making excuses isn't the answer.  You know she'll try but this is a standard boundary that more or less the court will agree with.  However, court will often decline to enforce such good behaviors.

This is my conclusion for support expectations and you should be somewhere within that range:

• Spousal support — This is usually ordered only during the divorce process.  Another reason the disordered stbEx delays a divorce decree as long as possible.
• Alimony — These days more states view alimony as transitional support for the disadvantaged spouse to transition into post-marriage life.  Very few states advocate lifetime support.  The general rule of thumb is that alimony lasts no longer than half the length of the marriage and usually less.  Mine was quite short, a one sixth rate, two months for every year.  The point is that alimony shouldn't be expected to last long.
• Child support — This is the long term support that is to help your Ex by paying for your portion of the children's expenses.

Be aware that there is a social presumption against fathers being too involved with parenting.  Sort of, walk away, start a new life elsewhere, but leave your wallet behind.  So many fathers don't step forward.  When an acting-out PD is involved, the kids really need their stable parent to step forward despite obstructions.  I recall my Ex's lawyer saying he had alternate weekends, that it was fine for him and suggested it for us.  For once in my life I was ready with a zinger and replied, "I doubt my Ex would like alternate weekends."  That shut him up.

[40days_in_desert]

ForeverDad - I literally laughed out loud when I read your first sentence. Not that you would know the details but he can't even support himself. He drives her SUV around for "work". It's her ex from when they were teenagers. Her first everything actually. Maybe she could use that as a reason not to work... .she doesn't have a vehicle because her boyfriend always has it? Ha!
I pay child support but more than that, I am very involved with my children and have a great relationship with them. My oldest lives with me and my D8 and D/S6 twins always say they want to stay with me. They love their mom and I never speak ill of her. I feel that it's due to consistency and no drama at my house. Thanks for the insight. Was there anything in particular on how you ended up with 2 months for every year of marriage? Not trying to cut her short but 7 years seems too long for transition. Thanks again.

[ForeverDad]

No one here really knows what amount or length of alimony might be decided or agreed to.  (Courts and lawyers prefer settlements since (1) they expect most spouses will be less unhappy if they settle and (2) settlements can't be appealed.)  My point was that the maximum for alimony is probably half the marriage length.  Likely it would be less, we just don't know how much less.  Has your lawyer given a range?

It could even be more money for fewer months or less money for more months.

In my case the 3 years of alimony was upped because we agreed to no child support during that time.  The reason was practical, I the higher income earner could deduct alimony on my tax forms but not child support.  She made so little either one was okay for her but how it was named did financially impact me.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Stopped by to say this thread has helped me a lot.  Hope goes a long way in this game, and I hadn't had much hope of separating from my wife, and taking my wallet (or half of it) with me.  My wife is mostly a SAHM, though she's gotten to work some part time jobs recently.  On paper it could look like she was willfully under / un-employed. 

With five kids (four underage) the concept of child support and spousal support is downright scary.  So much so, that's pretty much the primary reason I am still married.  I wish I would have found out about BPD and my chronic distress in marriage before having kids, but, life has taught me a lot the hard way. 

I believe that many dads get stuck with bad settlements (mostly too little custody) because of a cultural norm that short changes them.  I think courts are waking up and getting / letting dads be more involved, and women more career oriented - especially once kids are in school.  This seems like a good direction.   

[HopefulDad]

Imputed income norms and laws may vary depending on where you live, so I don't know if my following advice applies to your specific situation... .

First, understand her likely strategy to avoid having income imputed to her.  She will claim that her earning potential is near minimum wage due to her past work history and stagnant skills from being away from the job market for quite some time.  She will claim that the cost of daycare for your children while she works will zero out any income gains, not making any sense for her to work.  On top of that, she'll request that you pay for half of that daycare, making it a poor economic decision for both of you.  She will claim that having to grind out in a minimum wage job and parent your children when she's off work will stifle her ability to take classes and improve skills for future income improvement, effectively keeping the two of you stuck in this situation economically for quite some time.  And then she'll make the argument that it will not be in the best interests of the kids for mom to be away from them so much since "children need their mother".

Second, come up with a strategy to combat those claims, but also take a long view which may be better for you.  If your state/country requires both parents to make efforts to be financially self-sufficient, you should easily be able to knock down the "children need their mother more than mother needs to work" claim, but there are the economic realities to address.  As for those... .

Look at the big picture: The more she makes, the less support you pay.  So what's the best strategy to getting her making more money?  Any claim she makes about getting stuck in a minimum wage job for a long time is pretty persuasive, so you can push that issue, but expect her imputed and/or actual income to be around that amount for a long time, requiring you to pay more support.  So an alternative exists: Don't push for imputed income right now, but rather push that she gets job skills/training in a vocation of her choosing; The vocation must have growth potential and start well above minimum wage (or else what's the point?).  At the same time, push for a deadline when she would need to get a job after such training is complete.  Then request that at the deadline, either her new income or an imputed amount significantly higher than minimum wage goes into the support calculation.

A proposal like the latter does two things: First, it shows a judge that you're trying to be very reasonable in helping your ex get back on her feet economically in the most effective way rather than have her toiling away in some crap minimum wage job.  Second, it probably works out better for you financially long-term which is what you really want.

Anyway, good luck no matter what path you choose.

[takingandsending]

HopefulDad,

I really like that approach. I am facing the same scenario as 40days and Samwize - married 17 years, STBxw has not worked since S11 was born, currently and previously self-employed never grossing greater than 10k. My L said we could impute income based on her age/degree or use minimum wage.

My question on the option you propose is how long is a reasonable amount for support of schooling/training? I guess I have seen a whole lot of spouses opt to become professional students. I would like to see her able to support herself; her self employment generally makes others wealthier and her (and me) poorer. Is 2 years enough for training, 4 years? I really don't want to pay more than 4 years of spousal support. I live in WA, so if anyone has experience with this state, I'd appreciate it.

[40days_in_desert]

HopefulDad, thank you for the insight and advice. I'll explain what I've done so far regarding her to get on her feet and to be able to support herself financially in the future. I've read on here the same thing my L had told me that spousal support can typically be up to half the length of marriage. Although I don't want to pay her for 7 years and 3 months, I understand the need for her to be able to be supported until she can achieve this. I have had discussions with her about needing to start somewhere and the possibility of training/education for her, found an actual job where she could work for a friend that has their own house cleaning business, and to help with watching our children more so she could get a job elsewhere without the expense of childcare. On top of that, her mother already watched our children 5-6 days a week while she is out with my replacement. Our oldest two children are old enough and responsible enough to fill in small gaps of time as well. Her responses are mostly excuses why all of these won't work. As far as working in the evenings when most of the people mentioned would be able to watch our youngest children, her response is that she needs to be there with them for dinner. Right now, she is usually out with her boyfriend during dinner time. She lives with her mother.
She had told me that alimony is half the length of marriage (I have that in an email) so she didn't think that alimony is forever. One of the things that she struggles with most and always has is following through with anything. The reason that I asked the question originally is because I feel the only way that she might be motivated to act is of a judge says so. It's not that I'm trying to get out of paying. I want a plan so I can plan my future and she has one for herself. I'm in a split black phase so conversations with her about this will have to wait until the next white painting. Thanks again as you have brought up some good points to think about.

[HopefulDad]

HopefulDad,

I really like that approach. I am facing the same scenario as 40days and Samwize - married 17 years, STBxw has not worked since S11 was born, currently and previously self-employed never grossing greater than 10k. My L said we could impute income based on her age/degree or use minimum wage.

My question on the option you propose is how long is a reasonable amount for support of schooling/training? I guess I have seen a whole lot of spouses opt to become professional students. I would like to see her able to support herself; her self employment generally makes others wealthier and her (and me) poorer. Is 2 years enough for training, 4 years? I really don't want to pay more than 4 years of spousal support. I live in WA, so if anyone has experience with this state, I'd appreciate it.

If your ex has a degree, then 2yrs is enough and note that I'm including training time plus the time needed to find a job.  If she tries to pull a "I need 4 years to get a whole new degree", that's something she should have thought about well before this.

[HopefulDad]

HopefulDad, thank you for the insight and advice. I'll explain what I've done so far regarding her to get on her feet and to be able to support herself financially in the future. I've read on here the same thing my L had told me that spousal support can typically be up to half the length of marriage. Although I don't want to pay her for 7 years and 3 months, I understand the need for her to be able to be supported until she can achieve this. I have had discussions with her about needing to start somewhere and the possibility of training/education for her, found an actual job where she could work for a friend that has their own house cleaning business, and to help with watching our children more so she could get a job elsewhere without the expense of childcare. On top of that, her mother already watched our children 5-6 days a week while she is out with my replacement. Our oldest two children are old enough and responsible enough to fill in small gaps of time as well. Her responses are mostly excuses why all of these won't work. As far as working in the evenings when most of the people mentioned would be able to watch our youngest children, her response is that she needs to be there with them for dinner. Right now, she is usually out with her boyfriend during dinner time. She lives with her mother.
She had told me that alimony is half the length of marriage (I have that in an email) so she didn't think that alimony is forever. One of the things that she struggles with most and always has is following through with anything. The reason that I asked the question originally is because I feel the only way that she might be motivated to act is of a judge says so. It's not that I'm trying to get out of paying. I want a plan so I can plan my future and she has one for herself. I'm in a split black phase so conversations with her about this will have to wait until the next white painting. Thanks again as you have brought up some good points to think about.

The judge can do a whole lot: Impute income at minimum wage or higher now, enact a training plan with a deadline to get a job later at the risk of having a higher income imputed should she not find one or other options.  If you believe you need a judge to kick her in the backside to get things moving, you can file a motion regarding the training/deadline option.  The judge may think that's very reasonable.

[ForeverDad]

My question on the option you propose is how long is a reasonable amount for support of schooling/training? I guess I have seen a whole lot of spouses opt to become professional students. I would like to see her able to support herself; her self employment generally makes others wealthier and her (and me) poorer. Is 2 years enough for training, 4 years? I really don't want to pay more than 4 years of spousal support. I live in WA, so if anyone has experience with this state, I'd appreciate it.

If your ex has a degree, then 2yrs is enough and note that I'm including training time plus the time needed to find a job.  If she tries to pull a "I need 4 years to get a whole new degree", that's something she should have thought about well before this.

This question has come up before.  Two years to get a degree, re-certification or job training may be seen by a court as reasonable however I've never heard of a member being required to pay for more than two years.  Four years college or training would be excessive and beyond reasonable.

I recall reading a Sci-Fi book years about about a trust kid whose trust would end once he graduated.  Yes, he became a professional student, changing his classes just before he risked graduating.  Well, finally they told him he'd run out of choices and forced him to graduate, ending his trust financing.  Then the Sci-Fi story kicked in.  I wish I remembered the book's title.

[40days_in_desert]

HopefulDad - She has no degree. Took some basic classes at a community college before we met but never finished the first year I believe. Top pay for her was in the 12/hr range 16 years ago. The two years that includes training is something to explore. If she would only start the process of deciding what occupation that she would like to be trained for.

[ForeverDad]

I wasn't saying you should offer to support her for two years of schooling or job training.  That may end up being part of a deal or a judge's decision but I was more intending to tell you what the maximum of education/career support you may end up paying for, if you can afford to.  So don't think this is The Solution.  For one, you can't be sure she would really do two years education.  For another, the court or other professionals that have the court's ear may think extended education may not work with her.

What I am saying is that I agree with the consensus that career training might be part of the court's outcome but if it is then you'd be very unlikely to pay for more than two years, if that.

Her getting a job, yes, advocate for that.  Until then get her income potential imputed.  Don't propose training her without your lawyer's express direction.  Some things such as how you might handle her post-marriage expenses, are best held in confidence.  Too often sharing too much information with the ex turns out to be self-sabotaging.  Yes, when you're trying to make a marriage work, you have to share information.  But when you're unwinding a marriage, sharing information and strategies is usually counterproductive.