My uBPDw demanded I cancel an appointment, and I did

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I didn't do very well today.

I used to take Cymbalta for anxiety and depression. It was something my T at the time suggested. At first my uBPDw supported it. My T said I seemed to be feeling better while I was on it. I sort of noticed a change but it was hard to tell.

About 9 months into it, my uBPDw said I was gaining too much weight and I should stop. I resisted. I didn't want to stop. I must have known it was helping. At the same time, my uBPDw played heavily on the desires I've always had to AVOID medication and was able to convince me to stop. So I did. It sucks coming off. But I did it.

It's been about a year and I'm realizing more and more how depressed and anxious I'm feeling again. I think it's evident from my posts here. I often write here when I'm feeling down. Anyway, my old T had given me the name of a new P and for several days I've been playing phone tag trying to get scheduled.

Unfortunately, they called back while I was home with uBPDw. I tried to talk quietly in the bathroom and get things scheduled, but the minute I opened the door my uBPDw was standing there and said "I couldn't help but hear you on the phone."

So I told her I made the appointment.

I should have just told her, said "I'm not going to discuss it" and walked out. That probably would have been the healthiest thing to do.

But instead I told her I'd listen to why she had such an objection to me going back on a medication.

She proceeded to spend 15 minutes telling me how I was more abusive to her when I took it. She told me I would become detached from her and it would make me feel justified to do cruel and abusive things. I THINK what she meant was that I was able to set more boundaries and enforce them. That's often the kind of things she says are abusive. And then she kind of confirmed it for me.

She said I always just do what I want to do and I never consider her when I make decisions about anything. And I told her, some things are really up to me and me alone, like deciding how best to be healthy. I would ask for her input (like I was doing right now) but ultimately She said "that's absolutely not how to be in a marriage. What you decide effects both of us."

Then I asked her if that applied to the appointment SHE made last week with a P and told me it was private and I didn't have the say so (which I think was an appropriate answer). I also asked her if that applied to how she worked with her mother as co signer on $25k in student loans to attend grad school, which she did without a bit of consultation (I wasn't so happy with that because it's possible we'll be obligated to pay them if her mother can't or won't, and we probably should have discussed as a family how best to handle the various scenarios). She told me that it's not at ALL the same and that I am trying to flip things around and that preventing her from going to school was horrible abuse. She also told me she was worried I'd go behind her back and tell the therapist that I thought she was borderline like I did that once.

So anyway, this went on and on and at some point I should have just said "well, I've decided it's best for me" but I didn't. Instead, I let her convince me that maybe I WAS mean when I took them before. I just can't remember being that mean. But I once again fell back on my other conflicting position of not REALLY wanting to take meds. So I called the nurse back and canceled my appointment.

Now I need to find a different way to feel better.

Argh.

Why couldn't I just stand up for myself and say this is the way *I* want to go? Why do I ALWAYS have to give in and do it HER way?

I feel so powerless.

[DaddyBear77]

I didn't do very well today.

I used to take Cymbalta for anxiety and depression. It was something my T at the time suggested. At first my uBPDw supported it. My T said I seemed to be feeling better while I was on it. I sort of noticed a change but it was hard to tell.

About 9 months into it, my uBPDw said I was gaining too much weight and I should stop. I resisted. I didn't want to stop. I must have known it was helping. At the same time, my uBPDw played heavily on the desires I've always had to AVOID medication and was able to convince me to stop. So I did. It sucks coming off. But I did it.

It's been about a year and I'm realizing more and more how depressed and anxious I'm feeling again. I think it's evident from my posts here. I often write here when I'm feeling down. Anyway, my old T had given me the name of a new P and for several days I've been playing phone tag trying to get scheduled.

Unfortunately, they called back while I was home with uBPDw. I tried to talk quietly in the bathroom and get things scheduled, but the minute I opened the door my uBPDw was standing there and said "I couldn't help but hear you on the phone."

So I told her I made the appointment.

I should have just told her, said "I'm not going to discuss it" and walked out. That probably would have been the healthiest thing to do.

But instead I told her I'd listen to why she had such an objection to me going back on a medication.

She proceeded to spend 15 minutes telling me how I was more abusive to her when I took it. She told me I would become detached from her and it would make me feel justified to do cruel and abusive things. I THINK what she meant was that I was able to set more boundaries and enforce them. That's often the kind of things she says are abusive. And then she kind of confirmed it for me.

She said I always just do what I want to do and I never consider her when I make decisions about anything. And I told her, some things are really up to me and me alone, like deciding how best to be healthy. I would ask for her input (like I was doing right now) but ultimately She said "that's absolutely not how to be in a marriage. What you decide effects both of us."

Then I asked her if that applied to the appointment SHE made last week with a P and told me it was private and I didn't have the say so (which I think was an appropriate answer). I also asked her if that applied to how she worked with her mother as co signer on $25k in student loans to attend grad school, which she did without a bit of consultation (I wasn't so happy with that because it's possible we'll be obligated to pay them if her mother can't or won't, and we probably should have discussed as a family how best to handle the various scenarios). She told me that it's not at ALL the same and that I am trying to flip things around and that preventing her from going to school was horrible abuse. She also told me she was worried I'd go behind her back and tell the therapist that I thought she was borderline like I did that once.

So anyway, this went on and on and at some point I should have just said "well, I've decided it's best for me" but I didn't. Instead, I let her convince me that maybe I WAS mean when I took them before. I just can't remember being that mean. But I once again fell back on my other conflicting position of not REALLY wanting to take meds. So I called the nurse back and canceled my appointment.

Now I need to find a different way to feel better.

Argh.

Why couldn't I just stand up for myself and say this is the way *I* want to go? Why do I ALWAYS have to give in and do it HER way?

I feel so powerless.

[Grey Kitty]

She proceeded to spend 15 minutes telling me how I was more abusive to her when I took it. She told me I would become detached from her and it would make me feel justified to do cruel and abusive things. I THINK what she meant was that I was able to set more boundaries and enforce them. That's often the kind of things she says are abusive. And then she kind of confirmed it for me.

She said I always just do what I want to do and I never consider her when I make decisions about anything. And I told her, some things are really up to me and me alone, like deciding how best to be healthy. I would ask for her input (like I was doing right now) but ultimately She said "that's absolutely not how to be in a marriage. What you decide effects both of us."

Do you believe what she said or not? All of it or maybe that there is a kernel of truth buried in some other deceptive parts?

Do you feel like you were worn down or manipulated?

[DaddyBear77]

Do you believe what she said or not? All of it or maybe that there is a kernel of truth buried in some other deceptive parts?

Do you feel like you were worn down or manipulated?

Yes, I was certainly worn down and manipulated. Parts had kernels of truth, parts were things I was afraid of (maybe she knew).

Folks, I'm sorry I keep posting these ridiculous threads. My wife has tantrums. They look almost identical to my daighter's tantrums.

My daughter wanted a popsicle before her nap. I said she could have half. She didn't WANT half. And furthermore she didn't want to take a nap. I bargained. I said she could have the other half after her nap. Well, we were running late after her nap so we couldn't have the popsicle. So I offered sorbet after dinner. That wasn't good enough. I felt so horrible that I just wanted to give her the popsicle right then. My wife stood her ground, and D3 got the sorbet but not the popsicle.

This was a perfect example of what I do (give in) vs what I SHOLD do (stand firm). Problem is, wife isn't 3. I guess I just need to get over that right?

[Turkish]

I bargained with my D5 today,  so I can relate. Still, no means no.  She cried, tried to pinch me.  I acquiesced, but held firm later. She was mad,  but I put her to sleep and we were golden.  This was after I laid down boundaries later in the day.  Easy with kids,  with an adult,  not so much. 

Is your mental health something to be bargained with? I think no.  Firm boundaries here. 

[Notwendy]

DB- perhaps on medication, you were not as compliant as when you are depressed. When you are feeling bad, she gets to manipulate you and have things her way.

The way to feel better is to get back in touch with who you are, as a whole human being. The way things are- you are who she tells you you are.

There is a series of books by Patricia Evans about verbal abuse and one called "Controlling People". The genders are male as the verbal abuser - female as the one being controlled/abused- but I think they can apply to any gender. They may give you an idea about these kinds of controlling ways. This is not to imply a motive- that the verbal abuser is evil. People who do this are often acting out of their own fears. However, sometimes someone is on the sociopathic end of the spectrum and is doing this for their own satisfaction. It is sometimes hard to know. But the main point is to be able to identify it and deal with our side of it.

Do you want this to change? I ask this because when patterns repeat themselves, they may serve both people. I used to perceive my father as a victim of my mother's verbal abuse and naively tried to help at times. ( drama triangle but that's what I grew up with ). But the only thing that would have worked was if he decided on change. It was difficult to understand from the side of a spectator. Somehow- whatever was going on between them must have worked for them in some way.

So I say this from the heart- you know what to do- the advice is on this board. You should have kept the appointment because you knew, in yourself, it was something you needed to do. IMHO, if your wife was concerned for your well being- she would have encouraged you to get the help you need. Someone who is concerned for you wants to know you are in good mental and physical health.

Think about if someone you loved was hurting emotionally and took steps to see a counselor. What would you do? You'd be supportive. You would encourage them. You might even offer to drive them if they needed the support. How is it that you can not do this for yourself? You can, and should, care for yourself.

Now, if this is what a loving person does for someone they care about- look at your wife's response to you. Was she concerned about you? Or was she concerned about herself? Think about the message- she doesn't want you to get better because she thinks you are nicer to her when you don't feel happy. Who is she mainly thinking about?

Are you waiting for her to suddenly change and care about you- give you permission to be happy or take care of yourself? I don't know if that will happen or not. But first, this has to change with you- you need to care enough about yourself to give yourself permission to take care of yourself. That's not something anyone can do- we can tell you to do it,  but we can't make you do it. That step is up to you.

[formflier]

Don't prejudge getting back on medicine.  In other words... .don't walk into P office saying... .give me the drug.

Whatever you promised your wife... .don't talk about it again... for now.  Just hush. STFU about it... yeah... .Christian FF gave you the first letters about it... .

Call the P office and go.  Make sure your wife doesn't know.  If they call back and you can't talk.  Tell them so.  Call them back later.

Then... .when you get to P... lay out the story for him.  Tell him your experiences with medication and let him know you are open to medication again... .but, given the totality of your life at the moment ask for his recommendations for treatment... .ask him to explain why.

Then... .put him on the spot... .ask him to rank his recommendations... .again... why.

You may or may not need medication.  You may or may not need medication "short term".  But if he gives you three or four things and ranks this medication last... .perhaps you take it short term.

There are some docs out there that "hand it out like candy".  You are different, because you have prior experience.  If you think it helped... .let him know that... and also let him know what else was going on at the time.

The way you feel is "not just the medicine".

I want you to look at this a different way.

If he tells you this as his ranking

1.  Get weekly counseling to sort out your life.
2.  Take this drug to make sure you are sleeping better (let's assume he think you need more sleep)
3.  Drop 20 pounds and improve diet and exercise.
4.  Take this drug for anxiety.

If you take this doctors recommendation and do number 4 ranking... .and skip the other three... .you are making a bad choice for your mental health  That I am sure of.

Once you have seen the doc and figured out a plan.  Then let's cross the bridge with your wife.

Dude... .straight talk from FF.  You must get control of your life first, before you have any chance of being a positive influence in your family.

I am sure of that... .

FF

[Panda39]

By discouraging you to see the P she is keeping you in the dysfunctional dynamic that she is comfortable with.

I agree you need to take control of yourself, your needs, your well being.  We use the airplane oxygen mask analogy here often but it truly does apply.  Unless you put your own oxygen mask on you are no help to yourself or anyone else (including your wife).

I am encouraging self care 

Panda39

[Notwendy]

DB, your situation scares me because I have seen something similar.

You say you are afraid to rock the boat because your wife might take your baby girl away from you.

What this looks like is that your wife is taking you away from your daughter. Because if you can't take care of yourself, she can't have you as a father. And she needs a father.

My mother couldn't take me away from my father if she tried. I loved him no matter what she said or did.

But she could take him away from me emotionally.


Please don't do that to your daughter. You have to be able to stand up for yourself before you ever stand up for her. And believe me, one day she will not be so little or cute and she may get your wife angry. And you will need to be able to stand up for the relationships that matter to you- like your parents- before you are able to stand up for your relationship with your daughter.

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks everyone. Like I said, my threads here are getting a little ridiculous because I absolutely know I need to give myself some care now. I don't know why I thought I could go on letting myself degrade infinitely, but that's exactly what I've done.

As soon as I read these posts, I called back the P's office and reinstated my appointment. I left a message. And in the message I apologized for going back and forth and that I was dealing with a difficult relationship and didn't have the privacy that I needed.

FF, you're right and it's not just about taking a pill or not taking a pill. It's about putting together a comprehensive plan for better health. I hope this office is willing to engage in that. If not, I'll move on.

Notwendy, I would encourage my friend to seek out whatever help they needed. If I saw a legitimate danger in what they were proposing to do for themselves I'd call that out. I don't think that's the case here. That's how my wife framed it, but I think it's what you said up front - I'm not as willing to go along with her.

Panda39, I'd say that staying in the dysfunctional dynamic is really important to BOTH of us. This is a primary reason I've been so resistant to change.

Turkish, yes. Pretty much anything about me has been up for grabs in terms of bargaining. My financial health, my ability to provide support for my daughter, my physical being, these are all things I've put up as offerings in exchange for "peace" and "harmony" and some feelings of love. Sounds pretty sick when I write it out. But it's true.

Here's the thing - after things calmed down a little, my pwBPD was able to articulate some very supportive reasons why trying things other than medication made sense. It sounded like legitimate care and concern for my overall well being. i know she can't really sustain an outward focus and that these expressions of concern are quickly overshadowed by emotional crisis. But that's even more of a reason for me to NOT hand my well being over to someone who struggles so hard to take care of her own.

What's this thing in front of me? Oh! It's an oxygen mask!

P.S. Notwendy, your note came in while I was typing. I'm scared too. Thank you.

[Notwendy]

Good for you for contacting the P!

Yes, you are right- meds may help with the mood in the moment, but the causes, the stresses, meds won't fix them. If they make you feel better enough to address them- great. But asking your P for a plan and support is a great idea. The P alone may not be all you need. It was our MC who recommended 12 step groups for me. This P may recommend one, or a financial coach, or another support group. Do not be afraid to ask for what help is out there. And you don't have to tell your wife- this is about you. It is self care- like taking a shower, or brushing your teeth. Do you have to tell her that you are doing these things? I doubt it. What if you had to take medication for another health issue- do you have to ask your wife's permission to see a health care provider for a sore throat? No, you do it. You can do this too. !

[Turkish]

HIPPA privacy rules forbid health providers from disclosing private info to non authorized individuals.  They exist to protect persons under medical care.  Think of it like this.  You need to protect your privacy in order to protect yourself. 

[Hopeful_Me]

www.coda.org/

Welcome to Co-Dependents Anonymous

Welcome to Co-Dependents Anonymous, a fellowship of men and women whose common purpose is to develop healthy relationships. The only requirement for membership is a desire for healthy and loving relationships.
 

www.al-anon.alateen.org/

Al-Anon is relationship recovery for me.

[DaddyBear77]

Everything you guys are saying makes a lot of sense.

I don't know if this is common or not, but right now I have handed over control of my life to a person with BPD. Notwendy makes the statement that you wouldn't ask for permission to take a shower, but in this house, it really has gotten that bad. So going to CoDA, although something I'm almost sure would help, seems like an impossible dream.

But it's not. It's my right, and responsibility, to take care of myself.

[Notwendy]

Please go to CODA. I would guess your wife won't like it. Your recovery is probably threatening to her. She has a lot of control over you now- the things she does work for her. Why would she like it if they didn't.

The motivation for control is hard to know. But I think underlying it is fear and anxiety. People manage their own fears by controlling others. Co dependents do it too. Although you feel you have no control, you are actually controlling her feelings by your part in it- going along with her so she doesn't get upset is controlling her upset!

Two people usually fit together in this pattern. This is one reason why it is so hard to break. It works for you in some ways but it isn't good for your well being to be in this pattern. Often when one person changes - the other one begins to feel uncomfortable and tries harder to get their partner back in the familiar pattern. This is behind the "extinction burst" and other behaviors.

If you decide to make personal changes, you will probably need to be prepared for melt downs and rages, and be able to hold on to your own feelings and not give in. The great thing about CODA groups is that a sponsor is key- you can call your sponsor during these times. There are other members who may be willing to share their phone numbers too to be of support. They have gone through this too in one way or another.

Hope you do this!

[Panda39]

Book recommendation... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56458.0

Panda39

[Grey Kitty]

Keep an eye on the bigger picture with yourself too, DB.

Two steps forward, one step back. Repeat as needed.

Yes, you get worn down, manipulated, and give in, and then feel less for doing it afterwords, if not immediately. Sometimes you will lose that battle.

And yes, you can go forward the next day and do better (i.e. re-scheduling with the doctor)

It isn't easy, but it really is progress.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't know if this is common or not, but right now I have handed over control of my life to a person with BPD.

Hey DB, Right, you have.  I did the same thing.  It finally dawned on me that I had appointed an irrational, unkind and unreasonable person as the Captain of my Ship!  Recovery, needless to say, involves taking back the helm.  You are in charge of your own life, not her.  Presumably you are afraid of her on some level, yet there comes a point at which you've given away so much ground that there's little left to lose, at which point you are free to resume command of your own life again, and Damn the Torpedoes!  I suspect that there is something about your W that reminds you of some unhealthy dynamic, perhaps traumatic, from your childhood.  If so, what is it?

LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

It finally dawned on me that I had appointed an irrational, unkind and unreasonable person as the Captain of my Ship!  Recovery, needless to say, involves taking back the helm.

Lucky Jim, thanks. This reply has been driving a lot of my thinking and some of my responses since I read it.

Every person is unique, and that goes for pwBPD as much as anyone. I'd describe my pwBPD as intuitively manipulative and anxious, and not purposely unkind, but hurtful just the same. I love her, but what she's asking for in return is just simply not possible.

She's absolutely NOT letting the engagement ring thing drop, not that I expected she would. In Today's episode, we had an incredibly crazy making argument where she accused me of purposely denying her a "real" ring so that I could humiliate her in front of her peers. So that kind of helped me understand some of the psychological turmoil that's leading to this unreasonable and irrational thinking, but I can't really do anything about it.

Anyway, not much has changed but I'm hoping that keeping in mind that I'm being controlled and I need to undo that will give me some direction. Thanks LJ and everyone else.

[formflier]

we had an incredibly crazy making argument where she accused me of purposely denying her a "real" ring so that I could humiliate her in front of her peers.

So that kind of helped me understand some of the psychological turmoil that's leading to this unreasonable and irrational thinking, but I can't really do anything about it.
 

DaddyBear77,

What can you do about it... .or... .more specifically... .what can you not do anymore... that will be "doing" something about it.

Gotta love the exam questions... .getting these right will be life changing.

FF

hint... .examine the bold... .changing the bold will change your life

[Notwendy]

It can be an eye opener to see the perspective someone with BPD can have. I have found in my own observation that they tend to take "victim" perspective and cast others in the other two roles on the drama triangle ( which can change- one moment they are the rescuer- hero, the other- persecutor- but the pwBPD claims victim).

There's a payoff to "victim". In general a victim is not responsible for what happens to them. There is someone else to blame. So a victim does not look inward or take accountability for their actions or what happened to them. IMHO, there are some "true" victims but in most relationships both people are involved. Victims remain blameless. This helps the pwBPD avoid shame.

Child or elder abuse is an example of a true victim. Your wife is not a victim of your inability to afford a ring, but she sees herself that way and casts you as persecutor.

Although we may be treated unfairly in relationships, we are encouraged to not take "victim" perspective as it keeps us from being accountable and finding solutions. However, BPD is a mental illness that affects the way a person perceives relationships. Our part is to not buy into this distorted viewpoint, and stay out of the drama triangle roles ourselves, even if their point of view doesn't change.

IMHO, we are powerless to change this point of view. I think it is part of the disorder. So a circular argument with JADE, trying to get her to see it differently is futile IMHO.

If you listen to her arguments, you will see this. It is pretty amazing as an observer, how someone with BPD interprets things like this, but I have found it to be consistently "victim".

[DaddyBear77]

This is intense - things keep escalating.

FF - I think your point is that as long as I keep participating, I'm adding fuel to the fire and it keeps burning. Is that a correct analogy?

Because I think that's what I did this morning. And it turned into 2.5 hours of hell.

[Grey Kitty]

as long as I keep participating, I'm adding fuel to the fire and it keeps burning.

Bingo!

You don't have the ability to put the fire out.

You can leave the burning building. The fire will burn itself out sooner or later... .later if you stay and keep adding fuel!

[Notwendy]

There is a great line in a David Bowie song " putting out the fire with gasoline"

That is what is happening when we engage in these kinds of "discussion".

Best to remove yourself from the fire when it is happening. And your child too if necessary.

[formflier]

FF - I think your point is that as long as I keep participating, I'm adding fuel to the fire and it keeps burning. Is that a correct analogy?
 

   

[formflier]

It's tough to figure out the right thing... when it's not so ridiculous... .or just a bit off of normal.

So... .personally... .I try to find analogies that are accurate for the situation yet are completely ridiculous... .to the point they make you chuckle. 

Then, once the "preposterousness" (new FF word) of what they are trying to do is in full light, it's easier to make the right call... .usually to step aside and not "participate" in whatever they are doing.

When they are badgering for attention or an argument... .try this analogy on.

They are running around with gasoline and matches... trying to get you to light them on fire.  And then blaming you for the burns.

Most of us go... .why not run around without gasoline and matches... .much safer that way. (and it is)

But... ."normal" for them is being burned.  That's really sad... .Perhaps some day they will see that.  Until then, we don't play with matches or gas around them.

If they choose to do that on their own... .respect their choice.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Ok, so, I'm glad I guessed right and you guys are all awesome, so thank you for that. ;-)

And yeah, FF, to your point about Preposterousness (TM) (I like it, I'm going to borrow it!)... .

There's the aspect of "why the heck are they following me around / lying there TRYING to start an argument?" - that part is fairly easy for me to scratch my head about and say HUH?

What's harder for me (and maybe something I give up on / think about it later) is, "What is the emotional crisis that is underlying this?" Maybe it's because I'm an engineer. Maybe I'm just curious. But THAT part is always so hard to figure out, and yes, IMPOSSIBLE to fix.

But this is big. This is good. No more pyromania for me.

[formflier]

Ahh... .another poor engineer trying to solve something that is unsolvable.

That's a bit strong... .it is solvable by her, but that will take a while.

OK... .deep breath... .a paradigm shift needs to happen here.

It's not a crisis... .it's normal.  Very likely when they are having a "healthy" conversation, that feels odd to them... .someone bringing "responsibility" and accountability is a crisis.

Seriously... .it's that big of a paradigm shift.

Consider the implications... .

FF

[Notwendy]

We have had discussions in our co-dependency groups about addictions of various kinds.

We tend to think of addictions as things like alcohol, gambling, drugs.

But the basic model of an addiction is to use something to manage bad feelings. That can be intensity- drama- intense emotions as the neurotransmitters when feeling things like intense anger are strong and similar to drugs.

The point of the model isn't to make an addiction out of everything- label someone as having a problem- but to identify when we are using something to manage our own feelings so we can stop patterns we don't want to have.

Drama- these high intensity circular arguments can serve that purpose for both people involved. Takes the focus off ourselves. They are very tempting.

This is my own theory, but I think it makes sense. I think we tend to pair up with a "projector" of feelings and someone who is sensitive and tries to fix them. My mother ( and people with BPD) tend to be projectors- but not all people who "project" have BPD. It is one way people manage their feelings. We noticed that she would get into a rage, then she would feel better. It was almost ( and I think it did this) an amnesia effect. She'd feel fine, whatever it was was over ( for the moment) and all was "forgotten" yet, we kids would be upset.

Taking this into my marriage, my H tends to project. We had these awful circular arguments. The next day, for me would feel  emotionally drained. We described this in group as "emotional hangovers". Our goal was "emotional sobriety".  Yes, our partners may be trying to stir up an argument- as the argument serves to help them project their bad feelings. Our "need to fix the bad feelings" is also a strong temptation that we need to resist.

We have used terms like " don't accept the invitation to the crazy party" ( both people involved are acting crazy). FF uses the description of his wife handing him matches. Mine is the other person holding out a fishing rod with bait on it ,trying to get me to "bite".  So I try to think to myself " don't bite ,don't do it" when I feel myself getting triggered by something someone else says.

In general, we "take the bait" when we are triggered by something the person says. This is our issue. If someone can trigger us- then we have something to work on. As unpleasant as being emotionally triggered is, I learned to see them as opportunities- to work on something I need to work on. It helps us- and it has the affect of "disarming" the other person- who will often keep trying to get the drama started - as it is an emotional "fix" like a drug fix- for both people involved. It's a great moment when you realize you are not reacting to something someone says that once really upset you.

Not getting involved in those long, intense and dragged out arguments involves more than not participating. That's a first step- to not participate when you recognize yourself feeling triggered. If you see this as something to work on for you, it is possible that what they say to initiate the argument may not bother you one day. Remember the extinction burst - a person can keep trying - saying more hurtful things- to get this drama circle going until they realize you are not going to participate. This takes some practice, so don't  be hard on yourself if you don't get it all the time.

The "hole poem" is a model for this process ( and other addictions). I don't have any connection or experience with this therapist- I am posting it for the poem he posted. The "hole" is the circular arguments.


www.drchadcoren.com/drchadcoren/Dr._Chad_Corens_Blog__Bucks_County_Therapist,_Mental_Health_%26_Addiction/Entries/2010/10/1_THERES_A_HOLE_IN_MY_SIDEWALK~a_poem_by_Portia_Nelson.html

[Gumiho]

Hey DB77
*engineer high five*
If we knew what were the underlying issues, wouldn't it so much easier to come up with suitable solutions? Don't say impossible , it's just escaping us. What we do in such situations? Workarounds.

Notwendy --
Well that's an interesting way to put it. - similar to "not engaging in circular arguments", it's like the (currently only effective) medicamentation to my skin condition works. It takes away the ability of inflammatory messenger substances (neurotransmitters) to dock on receptors of faulty skin cells. You take away the matches for the kerosine.

Anyways, to get back on topic. Taking away the agressor, seems to be the "beat all with a wooden hammer" method as a workaround. But to find the true underlying emotional crisis would be the key to fix this. DB77 is right.

Just my thoughts

Gumiho

[formflier]

Taking away the agressor, seems to be the "beat all with a wooden hammer" method as a workaround. But to find the true underlying emotional crisis would be the key to fix this. DB77 is right.

 

I think taking away the aggressor is potentially the answer... .vice a workaround.

Consider the "needs to mature more" model.

pwBPD have some sort of emotional immaturity.  Hence the tantrums like a toddler.  As we all know, many parts of "maturing" are not fun, lessons are learned... .many times through "unpleasant" experiences.

Well... .if you have a way to avoid that... .many people (even nons) happily avoid "maturing".

Taking away the triggers and matches and bait... removes excuses for people to mature

Some will mature... .some won't... they will seek out new ways to avoid whatever it is they are avoiding.

So... .to wrap this up.  I suppose I'm claiming that BPD is some sort of emotional immaturity.  Perhaps even better to remove "BPD" and say that "emotionally immature" people need to mature. 

Many times the best thing we can do is to "get out of the way"... .

I realize there are different "paradigms" that can be used to look at this issue.  Not claiming mine is "right"... .but it certainly is helpful to me.


FF