Jack Frost and Carmella Soprano

[Karmajoy]

I finally found a good therapist. After years of self-help books and some lousy therapists, she told me that he’s borderline and I have PTSD.  This was in February. Since then I’ve done a lot of research and grieved a lot. I’ve been more depressed than ever in my 27 years with him. The splitting, the covert incest (non-sexual) with my daughter, the rages, our family histories, why we got together to begin with and my reactions are all pieces of this mentally ill puzzle. I’ve come to understand that we are both mentally ill and really want most to salvage what I can for our children, ages 18 and 21.
 
I realized my grandfather and father were borderlines, but much more in the classic sense. They both threatened suicide, etc. On a scale of 1-10, I’d put them at a 9.5. My husband is closer to a 5, I would guess. Had I heard the raging or the overt abuse, I would have run, but he was very cold, mild mannered and never raised his voice to me in the first 20 years.  He had a calm answer for everything.  He is Jack Frost.  The man shows no affection, no remorse, no empathy. His mother is a narc and so is mine. Again, I married him because I was familiar with the behavior.  When I would question things, he would just state the answer, such as, “We are done having children. End of conversation.”  I fought and fought and tried to argue (bad idea with a borderline, I know).  He seemed to know what he was doing and since I was so used to being obedient, I ended up doing what he wanted. In the many times, I suggested that I wanted out of the marriage (and again, why didn’t I run, I don’t know), he’d simply say, “Don’t be ridiculous. Think of the pension and health benefits.” 

About 8 years ago I realized I didn’t love him. I had years of cruelty, coldness, lack of intimacy (therapist believes there’s serious sexual trauma there—uses sex to control and withholds on a whim).  I just woke up one morning and realized I couldn’t love someone who should such a lack of respect and empathy and concern for me.  Sure enough I started to observe and I saw a very narcissistic individual who wanted me to provide all of the emotional connection.  I naturally began to just live my life. He painted me black on Valentine’s Day 2011 telling me that I didn’t love him anymore and he was going to divorce me and take all of my money. From this day until this past January when I told him that if he raised his voice to me again, I’d be calling the cops, he has been verbally abusive, threatening to make my life a living hell, threatening divorce every few months, silent treatments (which I’ve enjoyed; the quiet has been nice), sulking, making the house uncomfortable, and using my daughter as his surrogate wife, to fawn on her and act as if they are lovebirds.  I’ve called him on it.  I’ve told him that she’s a pretty  17 year old girl with no boyfriend ever because she’s got him at home. I’ve told him she’ snot his wife and to get the hell away from her before he ruins her life as well.  He’s taken note and pulled back on this sick behavior mostly I think because he is worried I might say something, as with his fear I’ll call the cops.

We’ve gone to divorce mediation only for me to back down when I realized he was going to play dirty with my kids. He made them promise he was the better parent and that they would live with him when home from college.  I recall my parents’ terrible divorce and how they would use us for years after the divorce. I didn’t want them in the middle.  I hadn’t realized how dirty he would play until he admitted this and took it as a sign to back off, for now.

He’s a very powerful man who seems obsessed with money. In the 20 or so times we’ve discussed divorce he always backs down, even when he mentions it because he says he’ll have to work longer or we can’t afford it or he’ll lose too much money.  I got a divorce lawyer and went over the numbers. It is true that he will have to work a bit more to pay my alimony and pay into his retirement account.  But, then if he doesn’t want to divorce but hates me with a passion, what’s his solution?

I’ve read a lot of about staying married for financial reasons. I’ve suggested we sell the house and buy two separate homes, or buy a mother-daughter house, or even get a contractor to create two houses out of the one we have.  I suggested selling him my half of the house to him. I was even told by my realtor that I could buy a house on my own while still married to him, so long as we can afford both mortgages. I can’t move out because I don’t have family and I have big dogs and won’t find anyone to rent to me. I’ve tried to be reasonable about the relationship. I don’t love him and he hates me/his mother.  His therapist told me that he doesn’t want an intimate relationship with me because who wants to sleep with their mother. I told him this and of course it went in one ear and out the other.  He rejects every offer I give to make the relationship better.
His therapist told me that there's noting wrong with him except for a touch of OCD.  She enables him.

He is a very, very troubled man. He’s been called into work for talking to people inappropriately and justifies it always. He is a very angry and depressed man. He got prostate cancer in the fall and had surgery. The surgery didn’t go as well as planned and it seems as if he blames me.  Of course I had hoped it would be the thing that would inspire him to make amends.  I told his therapist this and she said of course not and that it would just make him more of a victim, and sure enough it has.

I feel fortunate that he isn’t a cutter or a suicide ideation person, but he also is cold and heartless as it gets. He never apologizes, is never wrong and is incredibly rude. He’s a Super Dad and my therapist says that he is splitting when he does this and will only be this kind and eager to please until they cross him.  I think that maybe true deep down but I cringe when I think of that.  I wish I could see some good in him, but he’s so hateful to me, so unwilling to bend, so unable to apologize or take responsibility for anything.  While I find myself fortunate not to have to deal with the covert abuse anymore, since I found a boundary that he won’t cross, I see a dangerous man and I fear leaving him for how he may ruin my children’s lives.  He’s out of control.

I’m 49 and he’s 52. We had both planned to retire early and I can with full benefits at 55.  I’d like to retire and move to a warmer climate and just do my thing. I never think of him coming with me but even if he did, I’d have my own life.  It’s still a long ways away.  If I pull the trigger and start divorce proceedings, I am worried about my children realizing how crazy he is and feeling his wrath and I also worry about how it will affect my work, because he’s connected to my workplace.  As I said, he’s very powerful. I feel like I have the choice of sacrificing myself so they can have a good relationship with him, or sacrificing them so that I can be free. Of course I choose to sacrifice me, but for how much longer?

I feel like I am Carmella Soprano. She tried to divorce him but he blocked her from any of the lawyers that she could hire. Then there’s the scene when she’s on the phone with her daughter who just got engaged and realizes what she’s going to miss if she leaves and how he will behave, so she realizes she has to stay. She gets busy trying to flip houses so that she can have a life of her own and her own money and when she has her first sale, he tries to use her money to gamble, never giving her the autonomy she desires. 

He’s not a nice person.  I wish I could have the kind of compassion I see others have for their spouses. I can’t see beyond the cruelty and disrespect for me.  Yet, I spend very little time with him. Distance does not make the heart grow fonder because when he’s home, just the hour or two I spend with him, he’s oozing hatred of me or finding ways to avoid me by keeping busy. As he once said to me, he’s never been happy. 

I try to think of him as living with my elderly father-a responsibility. I am sure I wouldn’t like it and I’m sure he’d say some unsavory things, but I’d put up with it, knowing it was my responsibility. I haven’t gotten there yet.

This relationship is hanging on by a thread. We have no sex, no touching, all business like conversation.  He’s cold as ice. His MO is to wait until I give in and out of human compassion, give him a hug or an ear.  He can wait until the end of time.  So long as I don’t leave, he’ll go on in this unhappy life and take me down with him.  I don’t get it.

I talked at length to my therapist this morning about how desperate I am and surprisingly she recommended that I not leave now and not make any hasty decisions. It was as if she was saying it was too dangerous to leave.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi Karma,

Things sound very intense in your home. I am concerned for your daughter. Is she safe? Was this your husband's attempt to hurt you by giving your daughter more attention or do you really believe he is sexually attracted to her?

It seems as though a lot of resentment and bitterness has built up between the two of you. I know how hard that can be. It becomes very difficult to see anything positive in someone when we have so much built up hurt. What are you doing for your own self care? Are there any examples of what you are doing/are willing to do to try to improve this relationship?

One important thing to remember about Carmella Soprano was that she was not a total victim. She chose to stay with Tony. She chose to ignore the things he did. Although she was a victim of his behavior, she was still choosing to stay in that relatinship, regardless of her reason. As the non-BPD person we have that same choice. We can continue to choose to be victims of our pwBPD or we can begin to learn healthy ways of communicating, standing up for ourselves, and bettering our lives despite being in a relationship with someone with BPD.

Here's a link to one of our workshops on looking at our role as victim. We also have a lot of other great resources on the right side of the page to help you begin improving your relationship with your pwBPD.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114232.0

[HelenaHandbasket]

Bless your heart, that sounds just awful. It sounds like you feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm glad you've found a good therapist--perhaps you could also find a good attorney and just ask some questions. Without telling your husband.

I don't want to scare you--you know your situation far better than I do, of course. But my Spidey-sense started tingling when I read the bit about your husband and your daughter.  Are you absolutely positive it isn't sexual, or headed that way? 

[Gumiho]

Hello Karmajoy

I'm sure you will find loads of advice to help you form good decisions on these boards. There are so many nice people here ^^

I wanted to add something there.
My mom and dads situation sounds very similar to your situation. My dad was exactly as you described and he, god forsake, might have acted out the same if my mom didn't give birth to two sons.
  This is not an advice, just letting you know the outcome, mom put up with all the puke my dad used to ooze day and night, wich took it's toll as you certainly know yourself, for brother and me until we finally talked her into leaving in 2005 (she is 72 now and happier than ever before).
  My brother is a professor now and I'm pursuing my degree in South-Korea (I'm 38, rather late than never), what I want to say is that you, and this is what little advice I can give to a loving mother, should be concerned more about yourself. Your children are about to stand on their own feet (I hope).
  On a side note; as a result of our broken family, I have recently identified that I am co-dependant. I have learnt it in a very young age, because my parents used to fight like Tom&Jerry as long as I can remember.

Anyways,
Godsped

Gumiho

[Karmajoy]

Covert incest, or emotional incest, is not sexual. It's an attachment that people make to make up for the love they aren't getting from their spouse.  I believe his mother had the same covert incest with him, which is why he hates her so much.  It's a way of giving the child the responsibilities of a spouse. It's of course unhealthy for him but it causes damage for her and makes it hard for her to have adult relationships, which is what I think is happening.

He has always favored her, so much so that my son noticed and he and I commented on it. She's got a chronic illness and I've used that as a bit of an excuse for my son to feel some compassion. My husband may feel more for her because of this reason.

I am sure it's not sexual. I believe he's asexual or close to it. From the day I met him, back when he was 25, he was very sexually inhibited. I think this has to do with his own mother's covert incest with him.

I only recently discovered what covert incest is and it is not sexual.  I do my best to stand in their way and since I've discovered it, I've told him about it, numerous times and made him aware that I am watching.

She will be gone to college next month. I am hoping she can have an intimate relationship or two.  She does have quite a few male friends, so I am hoping this will continue. The only other thing I can do, at this point, is to be mindful when they are together, make him uncomfortable and consider therapy for her next summer. Of course I will not bring it up, using the phrase because, as with telling someone they are "borderline," talking about "covert incest" also makes people edgy.

Look up covert incest. It's also called emotional incest. I am sure that my husband was a victim of this and also his mother's golden child. He has nothing to do with her or his siblings now.  Very sad.

As for Carmella, yes, it's all very complicated. She knew what Tony was doing. She wasn't a complete victim. I see that I get a lot of financial security from my Tony and I am aware of who he is.  I see the double-edged sword.  Unlike Carmella, I don't love him, and I don't get any affection from him.  While Carmella knew what he did, she also got some affection, some recognition from him.  I am treated as if I am in the way but yet he won't let me go.  I suppose Carmella could have just walked away with no money and maybe that's what made her stay when she realized what her life would be like without his money. 

I wish he and I could speak more of the same language.  We are both very damaged souls and we are both unhappy living together. He says he's 90% happy with the marriage, but of course that's not how he behaves.  I wish we could settle on how to continue to co-parent but also live happily (apart, married would be fine but apart).  I hate the way his drama is dragging me down and his daughter and potentially his son, if I leave and he flips out.

[Karmajoy]

I deeply resent his that his numerous issues, according to my therapist: intimacy trauma, golden child of a narcissistic mother, victim of covert incest, covert incest with my daughter, depression and borderline are all things that are forced upon me in the form of covert rage and hatred.  I am depressed and have PTSD but I don't lash out at him over these things. I may not handle situations at work as professionally as I may like, or I may lay in bed too depressed to get up and face the day, but I don't take them out on him. I've read that depressed men tend to lash out in rage whereas women become introverted.  Wouldn't he be better off living alone? He'd have nobody to blame.  He's just so toxic with me. I know I have to hang on a little longer, for my own peace of mind with my children, but will I ever see the light?  Every once in a while I do what I call a "barometer check" to see if he's growing or maturing and so far, he's worse and worse; more splitting, more anger, more rage.  I wonder if, like with Tony Soprano, seeing a therapist for him (one who I thought was no good, for one because she'd fall asleep during my sessions with her and told me he was a great guy even after she'd told me before she met him that he was abusive), gives  him more fuel to be a victim.   I am starting to see that no matter what, his hatred and rage for me and his mother is so strong that he and I will never, ever be able to get along, except maybe after we've lived apart for 20 years. It takes my breath away and scares me when I see just how much he hates me. I never thought a person could hate someone so much, except perhaps a child who isn't getting his way (over nothing).  It's like all of the anger he's ever had towards his mother has never been released plus the anger he has towards me.  It makes me think of what must go through the mind of a school shooter. Scary stuff.

[Karmajoy]

I had been doing a lot of self-care stuff before February when my therapist told me that he's borderline and I'm PTSD. Since then I've spent my time grieving and researching and trying to find a way to find a good solution to this miserable situation.  Every day I am trying to get out and do things but I am obsessed with trying to end this chapter. It's been so long.

What have I done to make things better? Since having learned about BPD, I have stopped lecturing or telling him what to do, trying to play mini-therapist and ask him about his mother, talking about the past and talking about anything of substance. Since he splits almost every time the "elephant in the room is brought up" (us), I don't bother to bring our relationship up because out come one sentence after the other, each denying what the former sentence said, ending up in a mess of everything covered but nothing said and nothing to believe. 

We talk about the kids and then he vents about his job. I just listen.  I spend a lot of time alone.  I don't approach him or bother him. He comes outside sometimes to find me and talks about mundane things and asks me nothing. He tells me nothing of substance. He's learned to hide a lot of things, I guess for paranoia that I may learn something. He likes to run errands with me and I find mysef stuck in the car listening to him ramble his "to do" list.  I think he's nervous.

One day he spent 10 hours outside obsessively cutting treees down and bagging grass and said the next day that he thinks he gave himself sun stroke.  What an immature way to behave, as opposed to just talking to me.

I don't think he talks because he can't decide in his mind if he wants a divorce. He doesn't want to part with this money, and he's known me over half of his life, but he surely hates me.  He doesn't trust me and seems afraid to be alone in a room with me for fear that I'll want to talk about the problem.  Meanwhile, things are tense, to some degree. It's not a real roommate situation because the discussion is very fake.  This is the way his family behaves as well. He's very used to having mindless, meaningless conversation to fill air space.

He's waiting for me to break down but has no clue that I am not about to wrap my arms around a man who has bee very cruel and rude to me and rejected me for decades.  So, he waits and I just want out of this dramatic situation. Who would want to live like this?

I stay for now because he is very depressed. He is still grieving his cancer but according to my therapist, he's a professional victim, so this could go on for decades.  He's very depressed and extremely angry. If I poke the tiger with the divorce, he's going to lunge and I am afraid of what he will say and to my kids.  We are each other's only family so I don't want to lose them.  I also don't want him to ruin their lives for the year or two until we divorce and sell the house.  He's out of control at work and he seems on the edge, so I worry. Then again, will he ever be off the edge?

My ideal would be to retire and move away.  But, that's a long, long ways away. In the meantime, I have to keep thinking of what to do.  In cases like this, where we don't have the catalyst of an affair or an addiction and I've shamed him from the abuse and covert behavior, it's a matter of the "right time."