Tempted

[Zemmma]

Every time he has left (well over 10x) it felt like the final time.

This time I was sure we were done communicating. Total r/s= 5+ years. Longest breakup= 14 months. Longest time together without break up= 1 year. All break ups initiated by him.

So he ended it in January. Then contacted me at Easter I went back in. But he was reluctant and didn't let me fully in over the month of sex, dinners, affection, fun and acting like a couple (spending full conflict-free weekends together like nothing had changed).

But then he stated that he was just enjoying my company for now and "nothing had been decided" about our r/s. Said he sees no future for us. Says he has no desire to pursue our r/s further. That I was getting everything I wanted from the r/s (love, sex, companionship, listening ear) and he wasn't (co-habitation, co-parenting, sharing finances).

I began to feel he was using me for sex and intimacy until he found someone else. His intense love felt guarded. It felt like he could take me or leave me. He ended it, but still wrote to me in the night asking me to come over, no don't come over, and push and pull... .But the pull was with reluctance. It was just a pull to his bed. He was more clear than ever that a r/s with me does not meet his needs. He was done trying to make our r/s work.

So I sent a video that was non-blaming just telling him he can't contact me anymore or he would make me hold on forever. That I didn't want to say goodbye but since he did I couldn't stick around. I told him not to contact me unless he wanted me back; a serious r/s attempt, or some hope for it. And if not I couldn't not be his friend, and certainly not his lover.

A month of silence passed and he has now reemerged. I thought after everything I said, he wouldn't dare contact me. But he has. Like nothing was ever said. As my friend told me, he doesn't play by my rules.

He has been away with family and has told me when he is returning. And when he will be alone without his child. Basically has given me a 15 hour window of when he will be home... which usually means "come over to my bed."

But it wasn't a direct invitation. And after everything I said, he has to do more than suggest that he might have an opening. So for now I am leaving it, but already I am jumping back into hopeful. My denial of him leaving and not wanting to pursue a r/s with me anymore "at all," has been so strong. I am so worried I will fall back into him, but also worried that I will miss my chance to do it.

The fact is, I will be busy until Friday and then I am flying out of the country for a week for a conference/ vacation. I won't see him. I know that he should have to talk to me and promise to try at a r//s before I agree to let him back in, in any way... If that is even what he wants. Who knows?

For now I am feeling relieved because he is showing interest and it makes me think he has seen the light, and worried... because I don't know if going back is a good decision, even though I love him to bits and miss him every day.

At the very least, i should make him come out with a real invitation before even responding again. I wished him well/ safe travels but no more. Any thoughts?

[formflier]

Why "make him" do anything?  That is an illusion of power you would do well to sit aside in this and your other relationships.

You can make yourself do something... .not other people.  Boundaries are important.

You have a find wise friend.  He doesn't play by your rules.  But that is not the most important part of your relationship dynamic.

For some reason, you have apparently decided not to play by your rules. 

I would hope you could spend day or two reflecting deeply about this.  How would you feel if you played by your rules and invited your pwBPD along?  If he came... .have a good time.  If he doesn't, respect his choices.  Have a good time anyway.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

FF makes a good point about our own rules- or "boundaries". When we are in a relationship and we let down on our own boundaries, or values, we in a sense, betray ourselves, and we are not happy with that.

When you sent your video, you stated your own boundaries about the kind of relationship you wish to have with this person. This is your choice. What you can not control is his wishes and choices. Basically, you stated that you wanted something more of a commitment in a relationship than casual bedroom calls. He stated that he likes things as they are- fun, casual, not more of a commitment.

Yes, he may call you to his bed again without the commitment you asked for. That's his choice. Your choice is to agree to that, or stand by your value that this kind of thing does not make you happy in the long run ( even if it is enjoyable in the moment for you). Yet, you did set a boundary with him in that video.

What is the risk of not upholding to what you said? Well, if you said one thing, but do another, your boundary doesn't have meaning, for him or you. Boundaries are not something we impose on someone else. Boundaries are what we impose on ourselves- we stick to them. If we don't, then they don't have much meaning.

Yes, these things can be tempting. There could be many great things about your relationship, but if the two of you want different kinds of relationships- then that is what it is. It's about deciding what you want that is important and the actions you take about your boundary.

[Lucky Jim]

For now I am feeling relieved because he is showing interest and it makes me think he has seen the light, and worried.

Hey Zemma, Why do you feel relieved because he is showing interest?  Presumably because you are hoping to get back together.  What is it that keeps you coming back to the same roller coaster?  You must get something out of it, because As you note, you've already done it 10+ times before.  When you say that maybe he has "seen the light," what do you mean?  Based on the subject line above -- Tempted -- it seems like you are contemplating another recycle?

LuckyJim

[Zemmma]

Ha. Ouch! Those answers all hurt! Thanks for responding.

Seen the light... good question. I love him. Unconditionally. That's a problem.

It's a problem because I actually DO have boundaries. But not necessarily the ones I told him in the video. I thought I did- I thought I was claiming what I would and wouldn't tolerate in that video, but the truth is, I can see myself breaking that boundary. I already have. I let him contact me and chat with me without a commitment to a real r/s. I asked him to not come back unless he wants a r/s. He didn't listen, and I responded very briefly, but pleasantly. And now this.

My boundary is that I won't let him move into my house. I fantasize about it, but I just CAN"T. There are many reasons that I can't allow that to happen. I just CAN'T. He smokes, he is an alcoholic, he goes to bed at about 7 a.m. when I am getting up, he plays loud music in the night, he has similar, late and wild friends, he has a very young daughter that is a little wild and my kids don't jive with, he is emotionally unstable...

So "seeing the light... ." I guess that's my way of saying that I imagine he can accept what works and doesn't work for us. That he has seen that he can't live without me. Because obviously he can't. Or he just WON'T. He won't go away. He never does. So I think it means we have something amazing that draws him back. I see how my judgement can be flawed. But damn, be in or out. Stay or go!

I think he clings to these idealistic fantasies about what his life should look like, even though it is completely unrealistic. I think he wants to be with me but he won't let go of what a couple "should do." He wants to live together but how will that happen. He won't live here because my ex did. He won't buy a house with me because he has no money and no assets. He wants to live with me but he has no means. He has nothing to offer me in that regard... So what then? I pay more in mortgage in a week than he pays for rent in a month. How does that work? What about his fantasy of sharing finances? Does that mean he wants to share my debt? He has collection agencies calling him daily. Does that mean I have to support him and his child and his ex wife while I am supporting my ex-h and my two kids?

And I have been burned. And I have two teenagers in this house. I am NOT moving a man into their space with his much younger daughter. I can not live with a smoker, alcoholic, personality disordered, insomniac who has no respect for my basic privacy. I do love him, but I hold this house sacred. After I had to buy it TWICE because my ex-h left me suddenly. I have had to pay him a million dollars. I am not supporting another man. I have to take care of my kids and myself. I HAVE to as a matter of survival. My daughter is in therapy over a bad divorce. These walls are our safety now. I can't invite anything in that is not safe and controllable.

Wow. I am going to get flack for that answer.

With all that said, I valued what I had with my exbf. Just as it was. I guess it didn't sit well with him because he wants different things. I get that of course, and that makes sense. But if that is the case, why won't he go? I want what we had, and he keeps offering it to me. So why wouldn't I take it? Ah, this is all very confusing.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Zemmma,

I'm going to cut to the chase for you, as I think you're already tearing down your own reply for yourself.  

Ultimately, it is my belief that every experience in life has attached to it a lesson to be learned.  When we find ourselves going round in circles and repeating cycles of behaviours and events, it is because we are yet to take the lesson from it and still need to work through it in order to move forwards.  A bit like a board game    So tell me Zemmma, because I'm familiar with your story, what is it that you have learned from all of this?  

Love and light x

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Zemmma-
All your friends here have said a mouthful, but you my friend, have said a "mind-full".  Read what you've written.  And then please read it again as if one of us wrote it and your fingertips are trying to touch us in our time of need.  How would you respond to our call for advice given what you've written?

Zemmma... .After going through all the cycles more than once, and in more than one relationship, I've FINALLY come to the realization that adult love is NOT unconditional.  Lessons learned.  More "ouches".  Please give that a bit of thought.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Zemmma]

I know. I know.
I am stubborn.

And I'm an addict.

And tired of fighting with logic against my emotions. Its so hard.

I am SOO hurt by these two f'ers.

I had a really decent life. And now circumstances have made it so that I have to live an "alternative lifestyle."

I can't let anyone in fully. ESPECIALLY not this one. But maybe not anyone.

And I know I sound like an A-hole for making it sound like it's about money. But that's not really it. I was the sole breadwinner in my family for most of the time my h and I were together (27 years!). Never thought a thing of it. There was no "his money" and "my money." I met him when I was 15 years old. We moved in at 23, married at 25, moved around the country for school and work. I put him through school. We bought a car, moved to the city, bought a house, renovated a house, had a child at 31, bought a cottage, had a child at 34, bought another cottage, moved to another house. Then at 38 I had a surgery go wrong and fell into a bit of a depression. And he couldn't take it. And he called me a p&ssy for grieving about it. And started hanging out with the other stay-at-homers- mostly moms. Without ever telling me he was unhappy he suddenly left me at 42. And five years later I am still paying him more money than my friends make per month as high school teachers. Tax free.

So yes. Money does more or less come to mind. But so does the time I have lost with my children. They were children when he left. They are now teens and I only have them about half of the time. In two more years my oldest will graduate high school. The other will follow. I am running out of time. Plus, I lost time in the middle. When I was so hurt I was sleeping 1 to 3 hours per night. I was a zombie for more than a year. I didn't know what was real. I lost tons of weight, but managed to keep working, because I was still supporting everyone. He waited 8 months to move out. It was torturous. I feel that time was also stolen from my kids. They didn't have the mom they needed at that time.

I was only months out of the marriage when SuperEx swooped in and told me how wonderful I was, and "how could anyone ever leave me?" You know how it goes.

SuperEx: source of all pleasure and all pain. He doesn't fit into my life but he fits perfectly into my heart. I don't want anyone else. I understand that I am wanting everything on MY terms and that is disrespectful to him and what he wants. I want a monogamous lover who lives over there. I suppose that is selfish. It is certainly one of the main sources of our problems. Maybe he wouldn't act out so much if he could live with me/ feel more secure.

So yes, he wants me but I won't give him what he needs. I want him but he won't give me what I need. And for him it is a power struggle. And he sees it doesn't match what he wants. Then he leaves. So I say okay, but if you are leaving, please stop contacting me, please stop and let me move on. But he won't. I get that its my boundary to enforce. But as you can see, I am not strong enough. And remember, it was never me that wanted to leave the r/s. I don't want anything we didn't already have. I just want to enjoy what we have and for him to stop the spying, persecuting, accusing, and mostly, the leaving that crushes me so much.

He has the best treasure on the earth and gives it to me on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. Anyone who has studied psychology knows that is the best way to keep someone knocking on the door. I feel I am at his mercy. I don't know if I can resist it. I actually don't want to. But he will hurt me again and again because I know that no one else can give me what he has. And even when it comes with loads and loads of pain I will just keep taking it because I can't seem to knock the belief that I can only find this treasure with him. That I will never feel that intense loving feeling with anyone else. 

So the lessons. 1) He is f'ing bad for me and will hurt me again and again.  2) I would rather believe my own fantasies than the facts staring me in the face. 3) I'd rather believe his sweet words than his actions. 4) I need therapy.

I wish I could be more adult about this. Gemsforeyes, your comment reminds me of a girlfriend who said  she was willing to let a new lover go if he couldn't work through his old baggage. She said, "You have to be this tall to go on this ride." Loved it.

I just can't shake the feeling that this guy is the right one for me. Even with everyone telling me he is not. Including him a lot of the time. When he calls for me, I run back. I don't know how to stop doing something that is so rewarding. Even when the consequence are devastating.

I AM listening to all of you. But wanted to share the things I think because you can see how hard I fight against myself. Against logic. Against experience. This is intense. And life without him is boring. I don't like the roller coaster. But I love his music, the things he is passionate about, the shows he watches, the way we talk, the sex, the things he likes to do for fun, his friends, our alone time. I love these things so much. Damn. I guess I just want to build on that.

Thanks for listening. I really need to take some time away from him, even though he seems to want to see me. I will have to go back to NC again.

[formflier]

I'll study the post in more detail later... .

I don't understand what is "wrong" or "makes you an a-hole" for being a good steward of the money/resources you have earned or that have been entrusted to you.

Is it possible that you have listened to closely to people "accusing" you of that... .and you have taken it on board?

Or... .perhaps you should wear "ahole over money" as a proud slogan on your t shirt.  I'd wear it with you!     

FF

[Zemmma]

Hahaha... I'll take the t-shirt.

But truth is, I don't want to be an old lady still living a life of solitude because I wouldn't let anyone in.

But I guess the greater fear is building my life back that my ex-h ripped madly apart and then putting it all at risk again. I can only financially support so many people!

I guess I have to find a like-minded soul. One who wants what I want. But I think what I am asking for is not what most would want. I am most concerned about finding the intense passion again. I seem to believe HE is the only source of it on earth, and that is why I am willing to put up with all else.

I don't fall in or out of love easily. I've been with other men (men with great qualities, kind, better looking, more stable, etc.) and feel nothing. If the passion isn't there in the beginning, it doesn't suddenly appear. I tried that. I thought if I had enough intimacy with someone the pair bonding might bring me there. It didn't. I am worried mostly about that. I don't want to settle for less passion. Probably because I had a fairly passionless marriage for decades. I want that feeling I had with exbf. Anything less will be LESS. And I am getting OLDER. Yikes. What a predicament.

Exbf came back from his trip last night. He is still in reminiscing mode with me. But nothing that resulted in an apology, wish to reconcile or invitation. He told me he was free from midnight last night until 3 pm today "for no particular reason " (the emoji was his... ) I have to go NC again. The communication/ effort/ desire seems pretty weak now and that is good. If he isn't showing me intense passion anymore than maybe I will be able to move on.

[patientandclear]

Sounds like, contrary to your post further up, he is NOT offering you what you want and used to have. He is offering you a facsimile of that but carefully framed in a withholding package. NOT a real relationship.

When my ex wBPD did that, he really meant it. He never fully let me back in, and when he had a bad reaction to something, or the fancy took him, he could now take off at will (moved cities) or pursue other women, and I couldn't object because he'd already told me it wasn't a real r/ship.

I tend to think that offering your heart to someone on those terms is pretty foolhardy.

But if you want to go back in you can--you just have to accept he WILL leave or hurt you in some way he feels is warranted because you, by holding completely reasonable boundaries about not supporting the guy (!), preventing his ideal from materializing.

Your decision is made harder by that feeling that he has something you will ever find again. I've been living with that loss for years--I relate. It's tough. I find likening it to serious drug addiction is helpful, in the sense that for addicts, there is an incredible seduction to the high. It does in fact feel so much better than regular life, and regular life cannot compete. The choice to stop getting high is an intentional trade off of that amazing feeling for a functional, principled, responsible, self-respecting life with a very different kind of payoffs. Doesn't sound as much fun does it? Yet in the case of addiction we all acknowledge the destruction and erosion that comes with following the passion. So it was with my love for my pwBPD.  I have had to accept I can't have that beauty and passion without the destruction and the destruction is really not good for me. I miss him a lot though. Though I don't respect how he dealt with me or others.

[formflier]

Some very insightful posts.

Zemma,

My hope for you is that you sort out your values, priorities for your adult life and then live out those values... .unapologetically.  

That applies to apologies to others AND yourself.  Choices have consequences.

Your decision is made harder by that feeling that he has something you will ever find again. I've been living with that loss for years--I relate. It's tough.


Though I don't respect how he dealt with me or others.

I'm going to say a bit about my current situation.  Perhaps some of it will ring true for you.

I really miss the marriage I had for the first 16 or 17 years.  A natural disaster forced my family from our property and for a couple of years, my reactions to my wife and hers to me were very destructive.  Neither of us "plotted" for this to happen, but it happened all the same.

The "easy breezy" part of our relationship is unlikely to come back.  I hope it does, but I'm not counting on it.  Our relationship is much better than it was a few years ago.  I do "enjoy" many parts of it.

My wife and her family are quite clear they think (and say) I'm a greedy ahole over money.  I've changed the structure of how "my" money is handled so that my wife has no access or visibility to it.  Let's just say repeated violations of money agreements.  So... .stop making agreements.

Oddly enough, to me it's not about the money... it's about the respect to honor whose choice it is.  If I earn it... .and they ask... .and seem appreciative... .it is likely I would write massive checks for ... .whatever.

Things started to shift and they acted entitled... .I tried to "explain" how that made me uncomfortable.  They would say "I just didn't want to share with them... ."  Then it shifted to actually taking.  Yes... with e saying no... .money left "our" accounts and went to fund/rescue things like an adulterous sister... .basically supported things that I would NEVER support.  "But... .it's family... ."

We tried several agreements... .all broken... .by my pwBPD.  I finally saw the light... .and changed things.  She flipped out... .but things have stabilized now that she understand's it's a firm boundary.  

I believe she truly is sorry but I see no benefit in changing things back.  If something is working... leave it alone.

You also have to look at financial reality  Especially if you can get a sense of financial misdeeds of the FOO.  My wife's family has nothing to speak of.  It's all variations of bad.  My wife is the closest to a "good financial manager" there is.  She's actually pretty good when emotionally regulated... .and sabotages things when not regulated.

I'm multi-generational "successful" at building assets and creating a high income.  I've been taught from when I was little not to "work for your money"... .but to "make your money work for you".  Farming background informs you that sometimes a crop doesn't work out, but most of the time it does.  You just have to keep at it.  

So sure... .in one year there may be "blips" where your net worth shoots up... .and crashes... .but that over 10 years... .the trend is up.  Mine is up.  I'm fine with that... .my wife and her FOO aren't.  I've flipped 50ish houses and have a number of rentals (that I'm trying to sell and reduce to a more manageable number).  I've "lost" money on 2 of those houses.  Therefore... I'm a failure and can't be trusted.  In my view, I learned lessons on those two that I will incorporate in my decision making going forward.  (and this is my "side" job)

I have one remaining joint real estate venture (with them) that I'm hoping to sell this fall.  Never again will I mix money with "those people".

So... to wrap this up.  I'm a proud holder of firm financial boundaries.  For me, it's not personal... .it's business.  It was personal for me for a while, I did much better when I separated the "personal" part of the relationship with my wife... .and money.

She disagrees... .I trust she'll manage her emotions/reactions on that... .one way or another.

Heading over to that house I'm trying to sell to do some painting... .

FF

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Zemmma,

I think you are extremely brave to bare your soul to us as you are, which in my opinion makes you a bit of a badass.  You certainly don't strike me as weak in any way shape or form as you're able stand firm to protect your hard won well deserved and already more than shared assets.  And I deeply respect that, having kept men myself in the past and lived to resent it.  You're also protecting your kids from disruption to and dilution of your family unit as you feel this is best for them, which is admirable. 

What comes across to me in your posts as an area for some curiosity on your part is your relationship with yourself.  The timing of this man entering your life was ideal for him as you'd not yet had time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move forwards stronger in your life after the divorce.  I can relate to your age concerns, as at 40 when I met my ex I thought I was done for and officially had no relationship in my future.  It seems like your own self opinion is a factor in your attachment to him.  Out of interest, how long have you been completely single in your adult life?  Not including between recycles with this man.

One thing I'd like to point out is this:

I am most concerned about finding the intense passion again. I seem to believe HE is the only source of it on earth, and that is why I am willing to put up with all else.

YOU are also a source of this.  It came from both of you.  It is entirely your choice what you pour that passion into.  Maybe lesson 4 on your list might be a good place to start so that you can make decisions that are based on your values and with healthy self opinion as a motivator.  Acceptance of things in your life that have influenced your choices and perhaps forgiveness of any wrong turns you consider yourself to have made over the years can be so very freeing.  I speak from experience.  Understanding and knowing yourself makes the world look different and returns to you some of the power you may have lost through experiencing what you have.  Food for thought.  We will be here to back you up whatever you decide.

Love and light x   

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Zemmma-

I need to provide a tiny tidbit about passion from the "older" female point of view.  I'm 59... .will be 60 in a few months, and my passion is the exact SAME ride'em cowgirl level that it was when I first got on that horse!  The passion is in YOU, not the man.  You bring it out in him, and when you're open to it, that's the kind of man you'll attract.  He'll see your sparkle.   That's been my experience, anyway.  So don't hang on if that's your primary fear.  That one's unfounded.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes