Update - looking at the deeper r/s issues

[DaddyBear77]

It's been a couple of weeks since I posted, so I thought I'd share an update.

The financial issues are still front and center, and will be for several years now. But... .I also realized that with this huge issue sitting in front of every single other issue, I've been unable to really access my core feelings regarding the relationship. So, as best as I could, I've put the money aside and taken a deeper look at what really hurts.

My wife is denying all sexual contact and has been for almost 18 months now. This really hurts.

There's no communication here. It has completely broken down.

I love her, but I'm filled with too much resentment and anger to access any romantic feelings.


I feel like I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this relationship is over. And every time I let myself feel that, I get overwhelmed and throw myself into something distracting. Probably a sign that I should stay with these thoughts for a while. I'm not even assigning blame here, except to acknowledge that I have had a huge role in letting / taking things to where they are right now. I'd post this on improving but I stop posting there a few months ago because I realized that this r/s can't be improved beyond a certain point when there's no willingness from the other partner.

The one thing I CAN improve is myself, and my past threads have been huge in helping me do that. I firmly believe that telling stories, lying, keeping things "calm" at all costs, including my integrity - those things are about me, and are completely in my control to stop. I've still got work to do here - in other words, I'm still telling stories and compromising my integrity in some ways. But I have a very clear path on what to do here. And I'm working on it.

So anyway, big thoughts for a Monday. Still very much conflicted. But glad I set the overwhelming money issues aside temporarily.

I'm so grateful for these boards and looking forward to my favorite distraction - posting and helping on other threads whenever I can.

~DB77

[flourdust]

Thanks for posting this. It sounds like you're getting your side of the street in order. That's an important step -- taking honest ownership of your problems -- while at the same time, leaving responsibility for your partner's problems on her side of the street.

[Lucky Jim]

I've been unable to really access my core feelings regarding the relationship. So, as best as I could, I've put the money aside and taken a deeper look at what really hurts.

Good for you, DB75.  This sounds like a worthwhile exercise.  It's hard to look within at one's own pain, yet acknowledging one's feelings is a key step towards authenticity.  The lack of sex seems indicative of a more serious lack of communication.  As you suggest, something has broken down.  What do you think has changed?  There's no easy answer, I suspect.

LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

What do you think has changed?

Thanks for the question LJ. They help.

As I look back on the past 18 years, it seems that the one thing that HASN'T changed is my wife. There has always been this incredible emotional turmoil that grips her, then relaxes a bit, then grips her again. This has been consistent for as long as I've known her.

I've changed some things around, but it's not the kind of lasting, fundamental change that a r/s like this needs. I've really gotten good at lying, kicking the can down the road, avoidance, emotional manipulation and management. THAT has really put huge, different, destructive pressures on the r/s. I thought I was doing something helpful, loving, but really what I've been doing is a combination of soothing my own feelings of stress and also denying my wife the chance to face her own turmoil.

This morning she wakes up and hour before the alarm. Every 6 months she goes to Europe for 2 weeks for school. This is the second of those two weeks.  Today is her last day of class and with the jet lag and tensions between us she (and I) have gotten very little sleep. When she rolls over she says "it would be really great if I could get the last hour of sleep I need" and so I say "of course, love" and I start rubbing her back and offer to soothe her back to sleep like I do. A minute in, she says "I wish you would see how horrible you have been to me and change. But I guess some people just can't change even if they want to." I keep rubbing, but I say "I hear what you're asking for. I understand what you need." That was the catalyst for an hour and a half of rage and sad crying and shouting that woke up the family and disrupted her entire morning schedule. She told me I ignored her and didn't address immediately what she was saying. She says I emotionally assault her. The emotions escalated and many many times she told me this is the end. This is it. I can't stay she says.

And I said OK.

I'm sitting at a cafe now waiting for her lunch break. I don't know what I'm going to say, but the best I can do is remember, I'm NOT able to control another person and even if I could I won't.

Thanks everyone. So grateful you're here.

[Notwendy]

Hi DB- perhaps it would help to understand what I call constant victim perspective. IMHO it influences how someone with BPD sees other people. I can see from my mother that she - fully believes- that her feelings are the result of someone else- making her feel bad. She doesn't see her own feelings as being hers.

I do understand the constant emotional turmoil- which is part of BPD. However, the bad feelings are the pwBPD's feelings- they are not the responsibility of someone else- however, because of victim mode- they perceive their feelings as being caused by someone else- usually their most intimate relationships.

What you ( and other rescuers) buy into is this perspective and the belief that you can rescue them from their own bad feelings. I think this dynamic is realized at the beginning of the relationship and also reinforced by the idealization/devaluation pattern. Every romantic relationship starts out somewhat idealized- everything is new, the sex is passionate, both people are floating on infatuation. Yet, we all know that this phase doesn't last- reality sets in, the person is a human, with good points and not so good points. For the relationship to be lasting, mature love needs to be there, as well as the tools for that- good communication, common values. I think the BPD push pull tends to keep things at the beginning idealization phase with intermittent "off phases". I think the pwBPD truly believes that the new relationship is going to be THE ONE that will make them feel good and I think the non- buys into the idea that they are also THE ONE.

The "reason" for the bad feelings can be something else, but is external. I know from my mother it was things like "this vacation will save the marriage" or " the kids misbehaving are the cause of the issues in the marriage".  

Your side of this DB is that you are buying into the idea that you are responsible for her feelings, her insomnia. As adults, we are responsible for our basic care. We need to dress ourselves, feed ourselves, make sure we get enough sleep. If we are not sleeping well- that is our responsibility to fix- do things to help us sleep, or see a health care practitioner to see if there is something hormonal, or emotional, or get a new pillow, or something that may help us sleep. Your wife sees her sleep issue as your responsibility. Unless you are snoring or kicking her, it isn't you who is causing it and you can not fix it for her.

[DaddyBear77]

Hi DB- perhaps it would help to understand what I call constant victim perspective.

Bingo! Thanks Notwendy - I was looking for a good name.

Seriously, though, I was sitting across from her this morning on the bed, the minutes clicking away and I knew she was going to be late for her very important (I thought?) last day of classes. She started screaming at me, telling me how I am not fulfilling my obligation as a human being, how I caused her to suffer and to be late and to not get sleep and now it was my responsibility as a human being to fix it, and to say something that would help her feel better.

Now, the way I reacted wasn't appropriate, I admit that. I talk to her like I was her dad and I said "You need to stand up and take responsibility for yourself and your education. Your mother is paying for this and I am here to take care of your mom and our daughter while you study and get what you need. So get up, eat your breakfast, take your shower and lets go!"

Yeah, none of that was appropriate for me to say but MAN am I frustrated that she sabotages herself like this.

I know I know. I can't possibly fix it and it's wrong to try.

But ARGHHH!

[Lucky Jim]

as best as I could, I've put the money aside and taken a deeper look at what really hurts.

Hey DB, What "really hurts"?  That seems like a key question.  LJ

[GaGrl]

Bingo! Thanks Notwendy - I was looking for a good name.

Seriously, though, I was sitting across from her this morning on the bed, the minutes clicking away and I knew she was going to be late for her very important (I thought?) last day of classes. She started screaming at me, telling me how I am not fulfilling my obligation as a human being, how I caused her to suffer and to be late and to not get sleep and now it was my responsibility as a human being to fix it, and to say something that would help her feel better.

Now, the way I reacted wasn't appropriate, I admit that. I talk to her like I was her dad and I said "You need to stand up and take responsibility for yourself and your education. Your mother is paying for this and I am here to take care of your mom and our daughter while you study and get what you need. So get up, eat your breakfast, take your shower and lets go!"

Yeah, none of that was appropriate for me to say but MAN am I frustrated that she sabotages herself like this.

I know I know. I can't possibly fix it and it's wrong to try.

But ARGHHH!

And did she do so?

My DH said he was often in a parental situation with his ex.  Sometimes he just had to go into "tell" mode to get her past whatever had her ramped up at the moment.

[Notwendy]

DB, I will share an incident that happened to me when I was a teen ager at one of my first jobs ( I didn't ask for money from my father as I was aware of the strained finances in the family so I worked as soon as I was able to- first baby sitting and then jobs- I consider that a gift- that I knew how to work to earn money).


My mother had some kind of appointment. I didn't even know about it. Out of the blue, she showed up at my workplace in a rage. She was furious at me because she missed her appointment. Somehow, this was my fault, even though I had no idea what she was even talking about. I was a teen at the time, had no clue what was going on with her. So naturally, I was terrified.

I think in the moment of dysregulation, logic isn't a factor. My mother in the moment, was angry about missing her appointment, that makes sense. But instead of perceiving this as her anger over her appointment, I think she projected that on to me- and in that time, believed I did it somehow.

I recently was trying to help her get her car fixed. Yes ,it was her car, her problem, but since I was there and could drive her ( she doesn't drive) I was urging her to do it then. Her "feeling" was that I was "pestering" her to do something and she resisted it.  Sometimes she feels invalidated by attempts to help- as if I am telling her she isn't capable.

I feel sympathy for someone in victim mode. It must be awful for them. However, I can't change that or fix it.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey DB, What "really hurts"?  That seems like a key question.  LJ

What hurts is that I'm really not in a romantic, marriage relationship, and everything that I'm missing out on because of that.

I'm not sure how much more simply I could put it.

I AM in a caretaking relationship, and I'm also in a coparenting relationship.

But is that the most I want from my life?

[Grey Kitty]

But is that the most I want from my life?

You already know the answer.

I don't think you have any doubt of the answer.

And I'm pretty sure you are terrified of the natural consequences and actions that the answer will direct you toward.

[Notwendy]

DB, I will share what I observed with my parents over their long marriage. ( 50+ years).

My father would sometimes get to a point where he felt he was done with it. He didn't often admit this to us, but as we kids got older, ( young adults and older) he would occasionally say something. We would have been supportive of whatever he decided. We really didn't see the whole picture- and perceived him as a victim of my mother's behaviors.

However, as I began to look at my own relationship dynamic, and learn about co-dependency, I saw this as a pattern between them. ( it has been described as a dance)- a sort of circular push pull between them. Mom would push too far, Dad would begin to decide he'd had enough, then things would be good between them. It was, I think, a pattern they both shared.  As I began to closely look at my own co-dependent behaviors, I could see where my father was as much a part of this dynamic as my mother was. ( and I am in the patterns in my relationship).

One thing I did learn that helps is to not take victim perspective. It doesn't work in the sense that it doesn't empower us, if we think our circumstance is the fault of someone else ( and I see you looking at yourself which is good) and also because I think in relating to someone else who does take victim perspective, taking victim perspective becomes more like a competition.

This statement- is looking at someone else to fulfill your happiness-


What hurts is that I'm really not in a romantic, marriage relationship, and everything that I'm missing out on because of that.


Yes, it hurts and it is lonely, but it looks at the situation as something outside of you. I think a goal is to be happy in or out of a romantic relationship- to be OK alone, as you are ( it may not be your preferred situation, but) I think we need to be OK as we are - to really be in an emotionally healthy romantic relationship.

Your marriage does require you spend a lot of emotional energy on your wife. However, I imagine the idea of walking out of your marriage might be overwhelming. Yes, if it is your choice to do it, do it. But it may also become part of the dance. You begin to move away from the relationship emotionally- and then she may pull a little.

An achievable goal for right now may be to maintain just a little space for you- you alone. Not seeking something that is missing. Just be you- you sitting in a Starbucks for 15 minutes reading- you taking a walk. It is scary to just be us , on our own  but we can be- in or out of a relationship. It isn't a step out of the marriage. It's a baby step towards getting to be with just you- for the moment.

We can also do the personal work needed on co-dependency with or without the marriage staying intact.







 

[Jim579]

Hi DB,

When she rolls over she says "it would be really great if I could get the last hour of sleep I need" and so I say "of course, love" and I start rubbing her back and offer to soothe her back to sleep like I do. A minute in, she says "I wish you would see how horrible you have been to me and change. But I guess some people just can't change even if they want to."

Phew.  This stuff is so difficult.  That quote jumped out at me, as it encapsulates one of the patterns that developed in my r/s. 

Sometimes, just as an intimate moment came 'round, it would get blown out of the water with a hostile statement.  Eventually, it seemed to me that she didn't realize the impact her words had, during those moments.  That never made me feel any better, but it was one of the things that made me realize there was something askew (BPD) here.

My pwBPD moved out of the bedroom 5 years ago, ostensibly to sleep on the couch, where more morning light was available. When she didn't come back, the intimacy did start to fade. 

One thing that was even more difficult, however, was her repeated complaints--after a big blowup--that I didn't want to have "make-up sex."  Maybe I'm simply wired differently, I don't know.  But when every topic throughout the day becomes contentious, it takes me a day or two to bounce back.  I feel alienated, not intimate.  When she says that sex is "the only way" to get past these episodes, I get a faint whiff of coercion... .and then feel even less interested.

So I hear you about wanting that intimacy, and feeling as though it's on the other side of a vast lake.  Yes, I could borrow one of North Korea's ICBMs and try to get there, but I may not survive the trip.  I'd rather approach the other shore gradually, perhaps by canoe. 

Hang in there!

[formflier]

Hey... .my take on this is the back rubbing was invalidating.  She couldn't take it... so she blew up.

Basically... .she thinks DB is a complete azz.  DB is actually being kind and rubbing.  There is a conflict there that she has to "manage".

pwBPD don't "manage" those things very well.  We see what happened.

For the future. 

"I wish I could get back to sleep."

"Me too... .would you like a massage?"  If she doesn't answer... .go to sleep.  If she does... .go for it.

Even bolder... ."Me too... .how about an early morning romp.  Napping after sex is awesome."

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

My last comment was on the "big picture" and I am aware how terrifying it is to address that... .but I had some thoughts about the smaller picture illustrated so clearly here:

... .great if I could get the last hour of sleep I need" and so I say "of course, love" and I start rubbing her back and offer to soothe her back to sleep like I do. A minute in, she says "I wish you would see how horrible you have been to me and change. But I guess some people just

Look at what happened.

First she asks for something reasonable... .more or less. She asks you for comfort, which is very reasonable. She isn't taking your needs into much consideration, but I'm going to let that slide... .

So far so good.

You comfort her. A loving thing to do. Still good.

A minute in, what does she say?

HOLD IT! This is a full on emotionally abusive attack directly on you. Summary: "I wish you weren't completely evil, but you will never change"

And then look at what you did.

It is like a dog decided to clamp onto your leg and bite down... .for no reason, you didn't kick it or even accidentally step on it... .and your response is to try to soothe the dog as it keeps on chewing through your leg!

In the "small picture", the time for kindness, support, validation (and back rubs) is OVER.

Here is another response to think about at that point... .

Get up, start getting dressed to leave the house early or heading toward the couch to sleep alone, and say "I won't comfort you when you do this to me."

[DaddyBear77]

GK - I got your comment on the big picture. You're exactly right.

Regarding everyone's comments on the smaller picture - this is something that happens literally every morning. And every time it happens, I EVENTUALLY see the attack, but for some reason it always seems like there's some legitimate discussion point AT FIRST.

This morning is a perfect example. At first it's, "I am sore from all that running around the airport last night." And I engage, offer comfort. Then it's "I wish things could be as nice as they were last night while we were working together to travel home." Then it's "You always disappoint me in the end."

By that point we're late for our appointment this morning and the stress piles up so I just try and navigate us TOGETHER through the morning.

But- what that ultimately means is that I admit to things I'm not ("a cruel ass", I say "Things are going to change! Don't you worry about it! I am NOT going to stay a cruel ass!" Then it's round and round until finally the feeling in her subsides to the point where I say "Come on! Let's get up now and get this day going!"

Wow. My life is Groundhog Day!

[formflier]

Is the appointment more important... .or ending the abuse?   One way or another.

I suggest you look for Trigger words... .leave then.

Always is a good word to use to show you she is off to the races... .

FF

[Notwendy]

What would happen if you validated her feelings without admitting to something you are not- and not defending the accusation or trying to fix things for her? These are her feelings, her thoughts- and she can think and feel what she wants.

If she feels you are the worst ogre on the planet- well that is her feeling. It doesn't make it true.

One of the ideas that helped me was to substitute something outrageous for the accusation. Something you are absolutely certain you are not. Like a pink elephant, or an umbrella stand, or anything you want for that.

Then it becomes "You always are a pink elephant".

What would you do with that. Would you try to defend it? Would you be upset? Or would you just think - wow that is strange and leave it alone.

Would you admit to it? "OK honey ,I am a pink elephant". What good would that do?

"You are always a pink elephant"

Gosh honey, would you like to tell me more about that?

"Well you have a pink tusk and you are eating all the peanuts in the house"

and stay with it, listen, don't react, don't fix it, let it calm down.

"thank you for letting me know that"

Now use that conversation with "you always disappoint me". Don't react to it, just let it flow. See where it goes. If it gets abusive or you are late then say " I need to get to my appointment, lets continue this later " and walk out.

This substitution helps me stay calm and not react. Sometimes my challenge is to not giggle when I realize the accusation is just as not real.

[Grey Kitty]

Two things... .

Firstly, yes, she transitions from a valid point to an attack on you, and it takes you a while to notice... .

Practice, practice, practice. You will notice sooner, and respond in a better way sooner as you get more practice... .for better or for worse, you will have a new shot at it tomorrow morning     and you will catch it a little quicker!

Secondly, you can either agree with the accusation, or simply state that there is nothing valid to discus about it.

"I'm afraid you are right... .I probably never will change"

"You think I'm a cruel ass. There is nothing I can say about that, and no way I can prove you wrong, and I won't waste time trying"

Notwendy's pink elephant approach is more validating than these... .and will continue the conversation. I'd suggest you inventory yourself for calm, love, and patience. Sometimes you have a lot. Sometimes you are running on empty. Use the validation if you are full up... .try something like these or other boundary enforcement if you are running on fumes.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I wanted to add that the "pink elephant" idea doesn't mean listening to verbal abuse indefinitely- I use it to help me not react- not take the statements personally and  not escalate the situation. But I also cut off conversations that degenerate into insult sessions by making "I " statements- "I am not able to continue this discussion" .

I can't really control anyone else but myself- the "pink elephant" helps me not fuel the drama. If I find myself feeling uncomfortable, I say "I really can not continue this at the moment" and stop.