Is there ever any end to this? Can they ever see you trying?

[ozmatoz]

Hello everyone, back here again and frustrated more than usual.  The relationship has been on the brinks for years, in dear trouble the last few months and practically dead now.  I just cannot take the open ended questions with no correct answers.  I am hoping some here can lend some advice on how to try and break through when it seems like the very end.  If not to save the marriage but even to save some hell for me and the kids. I know its tough and you never "win" against these people, but at some point I'm going to collapse from trying to no avail.  When do you finally give up?

I have been constantly told that I need to "do better" and "be better" except I have no idea what "better" is.  She refuses to clarify.
She said I stopped doing the small things so I went back into my memories and thought of the things she liked... .

I surprised her and the kids chocolates from a specialty shop... .she didn't like them and thought it was crap that I bought her chocolates with a nautical theme (house is decorated this way) instead of fudge.  I should know she like fudge better.  And dear god why did I by her a chocolate covered Oreo... .she hates those.  (I never knew she had ever tried one).

I snuck into her work parking lot (knowing that she and everyone else would see me on the security cameras) and dropped off a yellow rose on her windshield.  I picked a yellow rose for peace and friendship because thats all that I was hoping to achieve with her at this point.  She thought it was shallow and stupid because I should know that roses don't mean anything to her.

We had gone away for a date weekend recently and walked a wonderful coastal town.  Got a nice room in one of the only places downtown.  Nice dinner, fun night of desserts and drinks followed by breakfast on the waterfront.  It was not good enough for her because I didn't plan anything special or make "extra" efforts to make the night "better".

I followed up a few weeks later with dinner at a nice restaurant overlooking the ocean with a bottle of nice champagne waiting for us at the table.  She had a nice night, but then on the way home said she still felt the same.  That I'm just not putting in enough effort or seem like a man desperate to save his marriage.

I stopped and got the fudge that she liked, no thank yous, she just ate it.

I've been home every night, no more working late, but yet she's still stuck being the one planning and shopping for dinner all the time... .

She found some lists I had made with some pros and cons of divorce and thinks that finding time for myself to go running or to get back into my photography is me being a selfish sh---ty person.  How could she ever be with someone like this... .

She has been trying to kick me out and asked me to stay at my parents tonight.  She just sent me pictures at work of her and the kids + 1 friend of my D16 playing in the pool with the comments "Enjoy that "you" time.  We are perfectly fine without you.  Happy.  Together as a family"  Well no kidding they are happy, its hot out and they are playing in the pool.  Don't you think I would rather be sitting poolside than stuck at the office?

Speaking of the office, I go in late and have been getting out early when I can to make sure she knows I've been committed to being present with my girls... .she continues to tell me that its still not enough...


Sorry for the long post, I'm exasperated just writing it.  When the heck is it enough?

[Lalathegreat]

I certainly never found my efforts to be enough. *sigh*

I think the problem comes because of their extaordinarily high validation needs. Something that might be appreciated for a brief moment becomes forgotten as soon as the moment has passed and they move on to seeking the next "proof" that you love them "enough".

It's been more than 6 weeks since my ex was completely removed from my life and the clarity I have now versus then is incredible. I can comb back over the entirety of the relationship and pick out every time I bent over backwards to prove that I wanted to be there, only to be cut down constantly for my efforts.

Not fun. I'm sorry you are going through this. Wish I had the answer... .

Lala

[Red5]

ozmatoz,

Hang in there, keep "talking" here, many here (me) can absolutely relate to everything you are expressing here, .learn the "tools", and try to use them, .as "Lalathegreat" says, it is most time impossible to "do the right thing", and or efforts for nothing... .especially when the sig-other is in full blown dysregulation mode, a no win situation, ... .I keep telling myself, "don't get lost in this", be firm, but don't defend each and every hill (JADE)... .listen, but be "removed" emotional in your demeanor... .don't allow your sig-other to be able to get you too far down, don't allow her to "trigger you" (pictures sent to your work), .yes, we can all concur with your expressions here, know that you are not alone, v/r Red5

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, I have to chuckle because I used to say that my BPDxW's motto was "Never Enough"!  It sounds like you are in the same boat.  I often found myself in No-Win situations, or Lose/Lose propositions, as Lala and Red5 note.  For many years, I operated under the assumption that we would reach a plateau of relative emotional stability, which turned out to be a mirage that we never attained.  To answer your question, No, in my view there is no end to it; instead, there is only acceptance that the r/s you have is always going to be subject to the realities of BPD.

LJ

[ozmatoz]

Lala, it is good to hear that there could be a brighter future on the other side of this.  That is why it is so difficult.  Even today while she's supposed to be at the beach with her friends and the kids the texting has been non stop about how she wishes I would have just stepped up and been enough.  She has asked me to try again, to try harder, to stop wasting her time.  This is followed by a demand to be all in or all out.  When I asked her if she considered all of the hurtful comments and degradation she's thrown at me to be "all in" on her end of course I was rebuked.  I believe she has a touch of NPD, she just cant be wrong.

Now I'm being accused of just being passive and letting my fears take over and she's tired of my half assed sh--t.  I am just completely out of gas.  Its not that I don't want to try or really want to uproot the family, I just have nothing left to give.  I feel like a shell of my former self.

Red5, I have been learning the tools and doing my best to SET, it works sometimes but her validation need is just so off the charts that validating and following up with SET to keep the conversation from escalating just turns into a broken record and she recognizes the patterns and gets angry at that too!  I've definitely stopped JADE-ing as much as I did before, but gosh its so tough when facing nonsense.  It is hard too when she is asking direct yes and no questions to things that are far more complicated than that.  This is where I get in trouble the most with JADE.  I cannot answer yes or no and I believe somewhere in the process I invalidate and the verbal assaults begin.

Thanks folks
-Oz

[Red5]

ozmatoz, .a couple of good read(s), v/r Red5

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/matter-personality/201408/borderline-provocations-viii-lets-you-and-him-fight

https://www.BPDcentral.com/help-for-families/familiar-fights/

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Oz,

Beware of F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), which is how a pwBPD manipulates the Non.  It sounds like the FOG is rolling in.  Suggest you let it roll off your back, without the need to react.  My BPDxW said essentially the same things to me in slightly different words.  It's all part of the drama, I'm afraid.  Suggest you try to rise above it by practicing disengagement.  Hang in there, LJ

[ozmatoz]

LuckyJim I try to disengage as much as I can.  I have pretty thick skin which I believe is the only reason I have lasted this long.  Unfortunately the thick skin has been finally worn down and she can see the weak spots.  My D10 has some health issues and when I try to ignore her texts or calls she starts with the crap about how I can't be trusted to keep my children safe.  The courts will love to hear about how you ignore potential information about your children... blah blah blah  Yesterday I believe she texted my from D10's ipad asking when was coming home during a period that I wasn't replying to her.  She then began to harass me that I can ignore her all I want but what terrible father ignores his own children.  A short while later I talked to D10 on the phone and she was adamant that she did not text me.  uPBDw started texting and saying so I could hear over the phone... .yes you did, you texted dad, no I didn't text you from her ipad... .

It truly is just to the absolute breaking point.  I just cant keep going in these circles.  I begin to get exasperated when I talk to her, which gets flipped around and I am told that I have no right to feel that way and am not allowed to feel frustrated.  I almost feel like I catch dysregulation fleas... .I'm aware when it happens and immediately pull back, but the fact that I'm starting to catch fleas and can see the fleas I've already caught... .ugh!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, Sounds like she is dumping a healthy dose of guilt and obligation on you, two of the F-O-G prongs.  It's all designed to manipulate or control you, which is what those w/BPD like to do.  It's hard, but my suggestion is: Don't fall for it.  It's all drama.  Suggest you pause before responding, rather than feeling an immediate need to react every time she says, "Jump"!  I used to be quite susceptible to F-O-G and my BPDxW was an expert at manipulating me, so I understand what you are going through.  My Ex was regularly putting guilt trips on me about our kids (guilt) or claiming that I owed it to her or the kids to do something (obligation).  If not that, she used threats (fear).  Has your W used any threats lately?  If so, that's to be expected.  Sorry to hear about your situation and get it in terms of the breaking point.  You're human, like the rest of us!

LJ

[walkinthepark247]

"That I'm just not putting in enough effort or seem like a man desperate to save his marriage."

I am in the same exact boat as you, my friend. I am cursed at, called horrible names, told our marriage is #@$%; told I'm incompetent. But, when I try, there is always some anger at my attempt. Nothing is good enough... .ever. I am told that I am "cold" and "uncaring" after just being yelled at. Should I be happy-go-lucky? I've now been told that we are staying together solely for the kids. I get no say in it. I am an evil, uncaring jerk who cares about nothing but myself. <obviously, not my words>

[Radcliff]

Hi ozmatoz,

No exaggeration, *every single* thing you say your wife is saying, so is mine.  Including "all in or all out" and my failed (probably inadvisable  attempt to ask her if she was in fact all in given her behavior.  Right down to texting me from my daughter's iPhone and pretending to be her when I've blocked my wife's phone!  Of the dozen or so things you've mentioned, my wife is saying/doing every one.  It's like we are twins.  At the moment, I'm busy doing some homework to get my own situation a little more stable, so I don't have any good advice, but you are not alone, brother.

[ozmatoz]

Walkinthepark247, I'm called horrible things all the time.  And sometimes its practically impossible to take the "edge" out of your voice when trying to respond.  I am often told I am "not allowed" to have these feelings or be angry, only she can.  There is just no need to hear some of the insults being thrown at us.  I've been repeatedly told I'm selfish and love being a victim and can't handle my own S*^t.  I'm now being told with even more conviction that its over, she's not interested in saving us,  I am not worth the effort for her to put in any further work.  Why on earth would she ever want to possibly stay with someone like me.  I am to leave so she can get on with her life.  And no she wont give it one last try for our D10,D16 because she wants to teach them that its ok to walk away from something when its that bad in your life.  I counter with I'd like to teach our Ds that we don't give up on people we love and care about and that splitting would be very hard for them.  She shrugs. 

Wentworth, she did this to me the first time the other day.  I was trying to clean up some stuff from work on a night that she was demanding I don't come home (she had texted me pics of her and the girls having a fun day at the pool "without me".  I wasn't replying to her texts or repeated phone calls.  This of course caused an escalation and next thing I know I'm getting texted from my D10 when are you coming home?  She does do this occasionally but it was followed up by a few more.  Then I get an angry message from W saying "you can ignore me all you want, but ignore your daughter, well thats what I come to expect from you... ."  I called my D10 on the way home and she swore up and down that she didnt text me, I could hear W in the background saying... .yes you did, followed by texts expressing innocence.  Worst part of it all is I think W now believes she (w) didnt do it... . 

[Radcliff]

Hello oz,

Are you capturing screen shots of the off-the-wall text messages and saving them to your journal?  Don't clutter the journal with anything that's merely snippy or annoying, but impersonating your children, abusive language, threats, something showing BPD patterns like lies etc. is important to save.   Anything that would be important for a court appointed custody evaluator to see if things came to that.  Don't trust it to stay on your phone. 

B.t.w., I've been meaning to say that one difference between my situation and yours is that you've done a better job than I have recently of doing special things to try to make your wife feel good.  I know they fell flat, but kudos for the effort.

You haven't talked much about your wife as a parent.  Is she generally a good mom with the exception of dragging the kids into adult drama?  Most of my wife's BPD behaviors usually fall on me, but I know some situations are much different for the kids.  That part of your story would be helpful to understand.

I'm now being told with even more conviction that its over, she's not interested in saving us,  I am not worth the effort for her to put in any further work.  Why on earth would she ever want to possibly stay with someone like me.  I am to leave so she can get on with her life.  And no she wont give it one last try for our D10,D16 because she wants to teach them that its ok to walk away from something when its that bad in your life.  I counter with I'd like to teach our Ds that we don't give up on people we love and care about and that splitting would be very hard for them.  She shrugs. 

Oz, the exact same dialogue happened in my house last week.  Now we've flipped to white, and it's still all my fault, but things are totally calm and my wife is doing a good job of asking for some things she needs.  I'm not saying yours will flip, but I've been astounded at how convincing she can be that things are over.  This ain't my first rodeo, so I like to think I'm appropriately skeptical, but she's been more convincing in the last couple of months than ever before in the last 25 years, yet, miraculously I am still here and haven't been thrown in jail by the lawyer she talks about.  So, be prepared for any threat to come true, but always, no matter how dire, keep that voice in your head that reminds you that it may be BS.  Do your best to not get taken for a ride.  I know it's hard.  Here's the thing I finally realized -- when my wife says these things, *she believes them*.  She really believes it's the end.  She's not just making it up.  Some of the threats are made up, but fighting her insecurities with lies to maintain control is probably such a second nature thing to her that she doesn't even notice.  She is just completely out of control.  And when we flip to white, I think she really wants it to work, and she is holding down her concerns.  The shame of it is that there are real issues for us to work on, and we really should be spending a lot of time in gray.

What are the cycles like in your r/s for the last few months?  If you're in a black phase now, how long has it lasted?  How long are black phases and how long are white phases typically?  I've heard of people cycling as quickly as days, and as long as months.  Also, how high are your white peaks?  Do you ever get to where she's putting you on a pedestal, or at least warm and positive to you?  (B.t.w. white in my r/s means simply calm -- peaks and pedestals are like unicorns these days   Understanding this part of your story would also be helpful.

[ozmatoz]

I'm doing my best with a journal, between trying to get the kids around to their "things" work, and absolutely endless arguments it is hard to get time.  I have saved some screen shots and sent off to a secure place, she did get in to my phone and deleted our text string but I have found a way to possibly retrieve them.

With the kids, she's generally a good mom.  I think she has a fairly tall house of cards and lately I've been seen as the wind that may knock it down.  She's usually good with the kids because she has to deal with their friends and friends parents.  She like to put on a "show"  her facebook and instagram would have you believe shes mom of the year.  Behind closed doors she can get snippy with them but its mostly saved for me.  I've taught D16 how to SET and JADE without really saying anything about BPD I just mentioned some ways that I found it helps communicate with mom... .  When we start arguing or she starts with her nonsense (like throwing my clothes all over the room) she is quick to hide it if the kids come around.  I dont purposely hide it from the kids, but if I'm in a room trying to catch all my flying clothes I'm not exactly stopping the kids from seeing it happen.  She has occasionally brought our arguments in front of the kids and it seems to be getting worse.  Her threats are now... .You need to go, I will no longer be civil not even in front of the kids... .  Threat? Truth? Who knows... .

I've been black since April with maybe 1 week of white somewhere in the mix until I turned black again then the incident where she got arrested for DV.  Since then I am the enemy to be taken down at all costs.  Even though I'm the one handling the attorney and courts for her... .In her eyes its all my fault and less having a time machine I could never fix MY mistakes.  You make a good point my wife really does seem to "believe" we are done.  I do my best to not JADE, DEARMAN when appropriate.  She made the statement that when filling out the kids medical forms for school she put "lives with mom" and put my address as my parents place.  I saw the form in the backpack this morning and she did none of that, total lie.  She was mad that last night when I was at a school event for D16 I didnt leave quick enough when D10 was having some health issues at home.  I didnt know, there is no cell reception in the school (she knows this and often complains about it).  When I finally leave (20 minutes after she tried to get a hold of me), I'm told not to come home, she doesn't need me, she can and has been doing this on her own for years... .

White peaks... .well more like bumps.  Just generally day to day getting along, with maybe momentary black spots.  The most recent white was a little different as we seemed to get pretty close again, but she would constantly push me away and finally just turned black again.
I do think there is something there that we could work with, but she is so riled up that she sees no way out.  I think she feels like she needs the control of ending our marriage to prove her point that she can control me... .the rest be damned.  I've often been asked questions that are complex to answer and then be demanded to answer them with a yes or no.  I usually refuse and tell her the type of deep questions she asks are only to be answered with shades of gray.  She thinks thats BS and agrees that she sees things as black and white, but sees no problem with that.

Reality is at this point my therapist is really helping me disconnect from her verbal puke but its still tough.  I'm just worried that the moment I fully disconnect I would agree to end the marriage and I can only imagine how that would go down.  She even makes fun of me for seeing a therapist... .nice huh?

Need to vent, here are some of the things she said to me yesterday:

You're a sad sack of s^&t and I can't wait to be rid of you.

Sad that you need mental health.

You're a waste of my time.

I'm moving on. I will upgrade don't you worry, its not like I have far to go.

You need to listen to me, take up this opportunity to work with me or I will force it.  (which is usually followed by "forget it, I'll make this hurt the whole way through... ."

Take your ring off and move your sorry ass out.

** My favorite** : You are dispensable.  I think significant others are dispensable and replaceable, and I'd like nothing more than an upgrade.


Ouch

[donkey2016]

Hello,

I thought it was interesting to read about the cycles of good and bad moments. My BPD boyfriend used to go through that every week with me. It would start Friday late afternoon - the bad mood - and the escalate into rage and "I'm leaving you" and painting me black - to Sunday morning everything was fine again (sometimes longer instead until Monday afternoon). It was so exhausting.

My BPD boyfriend did start therapy after I practically broke up with him. We 're back together. He's better but it's still problematic. Also all the things that happened in the past keeps me down and I can't really trust him. If feels like there can't be a real change (for a longer period) with a BPD person. At first he was very convincing and seemed to totally changed (I had been away on holiday for 4 weeks) but already after a week I could sense that he was slipping back into the old mood patterns but he kept holding back. I have read here on this web site examples of BPD persons being better over so long periods as even one year!

Yes, they really believe the bad things they say when they are upset - even if they say they were just saying it because they were angry. The reason I know is because they say the same things again next time they are angry.

To keep a journal is really good way to remind yourself of everything crazy that happened.

Donkey