Her suicidal ideation...

[RomanticFool]

And we are trying to show you the right thing... .or help you "discern" the right thing.

It is obvious your heart is in the right place.

It's not so obvious your methods are.

Changing your heart is hard.

Charnging your methods are less so... .although anything done from a "tough love" point of view... .is ... ."tough" for both sides, because it is usually different.

I don't really think I have any methods are than listening and trying to validate her feelings. However, for the past 2 days we have hardly spoken other than her thanking me for my concern and then today asking me what I'm up to. I don't find it difficult to act on the advice given me. I am not considering anything other than offering her support at the moment.

[RomanticFool]

So... .help me understand not letting him handle it all. 

If there is trust enough in him to call EMS when needed... .why not trust him enough to "be there" for her when she needs to talk... .text... .whatever.

It seems that you intuitively get that a person "on site"... .or physically there... .is in a much better position to "help'.

Yet... .you are still playing a virtual role.

There seems to be a disconnect.  Either trust him to handle it and let him handle it.

Or... .if you are really needed... .and your judgement is correct that she needs help... .send help to her.

The middle ground seems dangerous... .

All I've done is responded to what she has told me. A few days ago when I asked about her husband she told me  'his health is suffering and he is losing his mind.'

As I said before, she has told me many times over the years that she has been suicidal. The fact is that the only time she has done it was when we were not in contact.

I don't know what to deduce from that other than having me in her life gives her an outlet or respite. I don't think she is going to kill herself right at this moment or I would be on the phone like a shot.

[Skip]

RM,

This might help connect the dots here.

In my opinion, I think you are trying to do the right thing. I also thing you are responding to her in a far less risky way then before. I respect you for taking direction, dialing back the emotion, the push pull, and at times manipulative behavior. You've come a long way.

I'd ask everyone reading to remember that the police and EMS don't cure suicide... .they help prevent collateral damage and they can sometimes block an immediate event in escalation. Police don't improve mental trauma on any level. Guns don't improve depression.

So who does cure depression and suicide ideation. Generally, its families. Healthcare professionals can help with inpatient services (very effective) and therapy and stabilizing drugs. Short of inpatient treatment, families are the most curative.

I think this is most likely where members are struggling with your role. If you look at the general suggestions from suicide studies (see quote box), you are not in the best position to help her. This has little to do with your intent right now, and a lot to do with the history and the type of relationship (long distance, affair).

1. Several of the important elements listed below, you can't help her with. You occupying the role of primary caregiver, blocks someone in a better position from taking this role. If she wasn't in an affair, she would have developed a relationship with someone else - a girlfriend, her husband, etc. 2. You are a risky element in her life. You can easily flip into a mode where you trigger, obsesses, accuse, manipulate, etc. and your empathy (ability to read her) goes to zero. You may question my ability to assess this. You can't question hers - she said you contributed to her suicide attempt. You responded in anger to that and had to be talked down several times.

This is really hard stuff, I know. You are strong man for opening yourself to such personal critique.

So, my thoughts are, (1) if you are her best resource right now (and you may be), don't dump her on her ear, (2) explore with her who she is able to talk to and contact that person and ask for help (if worse come to worse, contact the suicide organization she works for and talk to the executive director, (3) slowly but firmly wean her off of you and onto someone who can fully support her, and (4) if you feel any triggering or obsession or thoughts that she is cheating on you or playing games with you, step away and come here and talk to us.

You are holding a ticking time bomb. She has attempted suicide and been hospitalized for it. That puts her in the highest of risk categories. She has a high likelihood of killing herself at some point. Find the right person and easing her over to someone who can better help her is the best thing you can do.

I know I sound very serious. I experienced a completed suicide. I have been involved with others that have also. It looks like this. We can also say someone is being manipulative, and it is true that it looks the same way. Everyone who experienced a suicide will tell you this.

Helping someone with suicidal thoughts:
1. Take it seriously.

Myth: “The people who talk about it don't do it.” Studies have found that more than 75% of all completed suicides did things in the few weeks or months prior to their deaths to indicate to others that they were in deep despair. Anyone expressing suicidal feelings needs immediate attention.

Myth: “Anyone who tries to kill himself has got to be crazy.” Perhaps 10% of all suicidal people are psychotic or have delusional beliefs about reality. Most suicidal people suffer from the recognized mental illness of depression; but many depressed people adequately manage their daily affairs. The absence of “craziness” does not mean the absence of suicide risk.

“Those problems weren't enough to commit suicide over,” is often said by people who knew a completed suicide. You cannot assume that because you feel something is not worth being suicidal about, that the person you are with feels the same way. It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it.

2. Remember: suicidal behavior is a cry for help.

Myth: “If a someone is going to kill himself, nothing can stop him.” The fact that a person is still alive is sufficient proof that part of him wants to remain alive. The suicidal person is ambivalent - part of him wants to live and part of him wants not so much death as he wants the pain to end. It is the part that wants to live that tells another “I feel suicidal.” If a suicidal person turns to you it is likely that he believes that you are more caring, more informed about coping with misfortune, and more willing to protect his confidentiality. No matter how negative the manner and content of his talk, he is doing a positive thing and has a positive view of you.

3. Be willing to give and get help sooner rather than later.

Suicide prevention is not a last minute activity. All textbooks on depression say it should be reached as soon as possible. Unfortunately, suicidal people are afraid that trying to get help may bring them more pain: being told they are stupid, foolish, sinful, or manipulative; rejection; punishment; suspension from school or job; written records of their condition; or involuntary commitment. You need to do everything you can to reduce pain, rather than increase or prolong it. Constructively involving yourself on the side of life as early as possible will reduce the risk of suicide.

4. Listen.

Give the person every opportunity to unburden his troubles and ventilate his feelings. You don't need to say much and there are no magic words. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it. Give him relief from being alone with his pain; let him know you are glad he turned to you. Patience, sympathy, acceptance. Avoid arguments and advice giving.

5. ASK: “Are you having thoughts of suicide?”

Myth: “Talking about it may give someone the idea.” People already have the idea; suicide is constantly in the news media. If you ask a despairing person this question you are doing a good thing for them: you are showing him that you care about him, that you take him seriously, and that you are willing to let him share his pain with you. You are giving him further opportunity to discharge pent up and painful feelings. If the person is having thoughts of suicide, find out how far along his ideation has progressed.

6. If the person is acutely suicidal, do not leave him alone.

If the person is acutely suicidal, do not leave them alone - drive the person to the nearest emergency department or other service facility. They may be hesitant - that is normal. The local suicide hotlines can advise you of the best facility.

If the situation is life threatening, or the person refuses to go for care, or you are unable to transport them, call 911.

Please do not use emergency medical services to teach anyone a lesson.
.
If the means to commit suicide are present, try to get rid of them.

7. Urge professional help.

If someone is acting suicidal or talking of suicide, it is vitally important to get them into professional care at the first signs. Like many disorders, early detection and treatment yields better outcomes. Persistence and patience may be needed to seek, engage and continue with as many options as possible. In any referral situation, let the person know you care and want to maintain contact.

8. From crisis to recovery.

Most people have suicidal thoughts or feelings at some point in their lives; yet less than 2% of all deaths are suicides. Nearly all suicidal people suffer from conditions that will pass with time or with the assistance of a recovery program. There are hundreds of modest steps we can take to improve our response to the suicidal and to make it easier for them to seek help. Taking these modest steps can save many lives and reduce a great deal of human suffering.
https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info3.htm

[patientandclear]

RF--if you are re-centering on your marriage and ready and willing to detach from your r/s with your ex affair partner, she is going to have to learn to get on with life without you being an emotional crutch.  Right now this suicide crisis, which could go on for a long long time, especially if she has an incentive to frame her feelings that way to keep you responding, is obscuring that you both have to walk the hard walk of restructuring your lives to not have one another playing this quasi-partner role.

Her telling you she tried to kill herself "because" of your absence isn't something to be taken at face value, in my view.  We can't know with 1000% certainty.  But other behaviors and choices on her part don't really match up with that.  More likely she prefers, all other things being equal, to have access to you.  You are an immediately effective way for her to get a charge of "I am valued and wanted."  For a while you took that away and she understandably wanted it back.  Beyond that, I would not over-attribute her psychological state to your actions.  There may be deeper, depressing realizations that are illuminated for her when you step away, such as "there will never be a coping strategy sufficient to fill the void I feel."  She's made comments to that effect.  And that is a truth you neither caused nor can change.  For a while she may have hoped an affair with you would fill the void.  That hope is no longer available and she is being responsible enough, it sounds like, not to continue to look for such patches.

The truth is -- there may be no solution for her feelings.  Her biochemical makeup, life circumstances, toolkit of options she knows how to or will try, may never add up to make her a happy person.  She is not necessarily wrong about this.  I can guarantee no doctor or crisis clinic is going to have an immediate solution to her deeper feelings of despair.  They may keep her willing to stay on the road to look for deeper solutions, but they can't solve the deeper distress.

I think Sunflower & FF are saying important things about whether the role you are playing is actually useful to her or really fits in a life of commitment to your life and detachment from your affair partner.

When I said "there is a narcissism in seeing ourselves as the answer" I didn't mean you have NPD or are a narcissist. I think that's a distraction to this conversation.  I used the word just to flag this as "something that actually is doing something for us disguised as doing something for the other person."  It's worth thinking about.  Narcissistic altruism is a concept I have found worth exploring.

Anyway -- it seems to me you are attached to the concept that you play an important role here.  If you do, it seems to me that is almost certainly unhealthy.  You are a crutch right now.

I am not recommending a dramatic exit.  But maybe something along the lines of "I've been thinking about our recent communication.  I care about you.   However, I'm not a professional qualified to address feelings of wanting to kill yourself, and don't want to suggest that is a good dynamic between us.  I am hoping matters improve for you; I know it's tough to step from one set of coping mechanisms into the unknown; I hope things become more meaningful and enjoyable.  I respect the limits you've needed to place on our relationship, but given them, it isn't really appropriate or healing for either of us for me to be a daily sounding board.  I hope you can understand.  I'm not trying to cut off communication but I think it's important that this not creep back to feeling like something it's not."

[patientandclear]

Posted before reading Skip's, which is a little less cavalier about the suicide dynamics than I am.  One reason I am may be that I enduring years of stated suicidal feelings from my exH.  They could be translated as "I really feel terrible about my life," but he never had the skills to re-frame in that way, and he used the suicide short hand to sort of gain purchase on my time and attention.

On the other hand I've had a suicidal kid who was the opposite of manipulative and whose feelings need to be taken at face value and validated.

None of us on this board can see clearly enough to know which column this dynamic falls into.  But what I think we are nearly all agreeing about is that you are not in a good position to play a helpful role, and that there may be reasons why that is hard for you to see.

I agree with Skip that you are due much credit for taking this feedback on board.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

This might help connect the dots here.

In my opinion, I think you are trying to do the right thing. I also thing you are responding to her in a far less risky way then before. I respect you for taking direction, dialing back the emotion, the push pull, and at times manipulative behavior. You've come a long way.

Thanks. I feel that too.

If you look at the general suggestions from suicide studies (see quote box), you are not in the best position to help her. This has little to do with your intent right now, and a lot to do with the history and the type of relationship (long distance, affair).

I feel this way too. There is only so much that can be done via text.

1. Several of the important elements listed below, you can't help her with. You occupying the role of primary caregiver, blocks someone in a better position from taking this role. If she wasn't in an affair, she would have developed a relationship with someone else - a girlfriend, her husband, etc.

2. You are a risky element in her life. You can easily flip into a mode where you trigger, obsesses, accuse, manipulate, etc. and your empathy (ability to read her) goes to zero. You may question my ability to assess this. You can't question hers - she said you contributed to her suicide attempt. You responded in anger to that and had to be talked down several times.

Noted. She has been talking to me less over the last 2 days after I suggested she talk to a health professional. I have made it clear that I am here for her if she needs me.

I just want to flag up that when she accused me of driving her to suicide was during a period of NC. I was trying to detach from her. I responded in anger because I didn't understand how I contributed to her suicide when we weren't in contact. However, I now understand that the times she tried to initiate contact with her I was angry with her for breaking NC.

This is really hard stuff, I know. You are strong man for opening yourself to such personal critique.

It is hard. My only interest is to make sure I am not making things worse for her. I have done enough of that in the past as you indicated above.

So, my thoughts are, (1) if you are her best resource right now (and you may be), don't dump her on her ear,

No chance of that.

explore with her who she is able to talk to and contact that person and ask for help (if worse come to worse, contact the suicide organization she works for and talk to the executive director,

I have thought about contacting the director of her area. It is tricky because she was that person up until recently. I also think if I ever did that she would be furious. However, if she does persist in the suicide talk and I think she is going to do it, I will consider this option.

slowly but firmly wean her off of you and onto someone who can fully support her,

I agree regarding suicide talk. I think she will always want me as a friend.

f you feel any triggering or obsession or thoughts that she is cheating on you or playing games with you, step away and come here and talk to us.

I'm sure you have noticed that I have been trying to do just that. I still have the feelings but I have been voicing them on here rather than to her.

You are holding a ticking time bomb. She has attempted suicide and been hospitalized for it. That puts her in the highest of risk categories. She has a high likelihood of killing herself at some point. Find the right person and easing her over to someone who can better help her is the best thing you can do.

How do I find the right person? I read the article you posted and found it very useful. I am trying to wean her off me regarding the suicide but I do have to say again that I think she considers me as a friend and since she doesn't have many of those, she will not want to lose that between us.

[Skip]

Be careful to not split hairs... .

if she does persist in the suicide talk and I think she is going to do it, I will consider this option.

Do you think you can tell from a text? Do you think a suicide hotline person can sweep in during a crisis and become her confidant and reason to want to live?

The typical people to play this role are parents, sisters, spouses, best friends.

I think she will always want me as a friend.

Do you think that, long term, your presence in her life is a good thing? Do you think her presence in your life is a good thing?

You are both living the ultimate drama triangle - every day that you connect you do so to avoid fixing your relationships with your spouses. The person she should be turning to for comfort right now is her husband. Rather than him getting a full picture, some of its is shuttled over to you.

You are starting to wean yourselves from each other. That is good. Don't lose site that you are not really helping each other cope with life - your escaping it.

[RomanticFool]

P&C,

RF--if you are re-centering on your marriage and ready and willing to detach from your r/s with your ex affair partner, she is going to have to learn to get on with life without you being an emotional crutch.  Right now this suicide crisis, which could go on for a long long time, especially if she has an incentive to frame her feelings that way to keep you responding, is obscuring that you both have to walk the hard walk of restructuring your lives to not have one another playing this quasi-partner role.

Her telling you she tried to kill herself "because" of your absence isn't something to be taken at face value, in my view.  We can't know with 1000% certainty.  But other behaviors and choices on her part don't really match up with that.  More likely she prefers, all other things being equal, to have access to you.  You are an immediately effective way for her to get a charge of "I am valued and wanted."  For a while you took that away and she understandably wanted it back.  Beyond that, I would not over-attribute her psychological state to your actions.  There may be deeper, depressing realizations that are illuminated for her when you step away, such as "there will never be a coping strategy sufficient to fill the void I feel."  She's made comments to that effect.  And that is a truth you neither caused nor can change.  For a while she may have hoped an affair with you would fill the void.  That hope is no longer available and she is being responsible enough, it sounds like, not to continue to look for such patches.

These thoughts have all been in my head for a very long time now. However, since she told me that she tried to take her own life then I have to take it all at face value.

I don't feel that re-centring on my marriage means dumping her as a friend right at this moment. I have gone a long way to detaching from her and we are never going to sleep together again, that much I know. The rest will happen in time.

It is very interesting what you say about me no longer filling the void because recently she has told me that music and helping others have also ceased to work for her.

The truth is -- there may be no solution for her feelings.  Her biochemical makeup, life circumstances, toolkit of options she knows how to or will try, may never add up to make her a happy person.  She is not necessarily wrong about this.  I can guarantee no doctor or crisis clinic is going to have an immediate solution to her deeper feelings of despair.  They may keep her willing to stay on the road to look for deeper solutions, but they can't solve the deeper distress.

I think she feels there is no solution hence the suicide talk. She has been under many doctors over the years and is now in AA. She works for a suicide prevention charity and has had help from all sorts of people. The fact is her feelings of emptiness and anguish persist. Only know do I feel I am getting a full insight into her condition. She is like a wounded butterfly who will never recover. All I am really offering her is temporary pain relief - but if it goes anyway to helping then I want to continue.

I think Sunflower & FF are saying important things about whether the role you are playing is actually useful to her or really fits in a life of commitment to your life and detachment from your affair partner.

Yes, I am considering all of this. I am going to wean her off me over a period of time. It is already happening I think.

When I said "there is a narcissism in seeing ourselves as the answer" I didn't mean you have NPD or are a narcissist. I think that's a distraction to this conversation.  I used the word just to flag this as "something that actually is doing something for us disguised as doing something for the other person."  It's worth thinking about.  Narcissistic altruism is a concept I have found worth exploring.

I know you didn't mean that. I am saying that I have narcissistic traits. Believe me I am in the profession for it. That said, I don't believe i would be diagnosed with NPD. I guess what i am getting from this is remaining in contact with her and feeling like I am helping her. At least that is better than berating her for not wanting to see me and generally adding to her stress by getting upset with her.

Anyway -- it seems to me you are attached to the concept that you play an important role here.  If you do, it seems to me that is almost certainly unhealthy.  You are a crutch right now.

I am not attached to that concept at all. Frankly, I would rather be sleeping with her than being her agony aunt but I care about her as a person and I am doing my best to offer support. I don't really feel much kudos from being altruistic with her. For me in this moment it is about recognising she has BPD and not doing her further harm.

I am not recommending a dramatic exit.  But maybe something along the lines of "I've been thinking about our recent communication.  I care about you.   However, I'm not a professional qualified to address feelings of wanting to kill yourself, and don't want to suggest that is a good dynamic between us.  I am hoping matters improve for you; I know it's tough to step from one set of coping mechanisms into the unknown; I hope things become more meaningful and enjoyable.  I respect the limits you've needed to place on our relationship, but given them, it isn't really appropriate or healing for either of us for me to be a daily sounding board.  I hope you can understand.  I'm not trying to cut off communication but I think it's important that this not creep back to feeling like something it's not."

Do you think that this is a good time to say that to her?

Posted before reading Skip's, which is a little less cavalier about the suicide dynamics than I am.  One reason I am may be that I enduring years of stated suicidal feelings from my exH.  They could be translated as "I really feel terrible about my life," but he never had the skills to re-frame in that way, and he used the suicide short hand to sort of gain purchase on my time and attention.

I actually thought this is what she was doing up until she told me that she tried to kill herself. I must recognise that she isn't bluffing. Unless I believe she is lying to me about that (which I don't).

On the other hand I've had a suicidal kid who was the opposite of manipulative and whose feelings need to be taken at face value and validated.

Sorry to hear that. I do think she is a real suicide case. I wouldn't be on here if I didn't.

None of us on this board can see clearly enough to know which column this dynamic falls into.  But what I think we are nearly all agreeing about is that you are not in a good position to play a helpful role, and that there may be reasons why that is hard for you to see.

I think if I take my own stuff out of the equation and don't try to act as her counsellor then what I am offering her beyond that is friendship. I believe that is important to her. This is no longer about me. I am thinking about what she needs. I agree that she doesn't need me getting in the way of professional help and I am not going to indulge that but I am not going to turn my back on her at this time.

I agree with Skip that you are due much credit for taking this feedback on board.

This is Red Flag city. I would be a fool not to. Thank you for your input.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Do you think you can tell from a text? Do you think a suicide hotline person can sweep in during a crisis and become her confidant and reason to want to live?

The typical people to play this role are parents, sisters, spouses, best friends.

No, I don't think I can tell from a text.

You said not to dump her at present. What do you think I should do then?

Do you think that, long term, your presence in her life is a good thing? Do you think her presence in your life is a good thing?

You are both living the ultimate drama triangle - every day that you connect you do so to avoid fixing your relationships with your spouses. The person she should be turning to for comfort right now is her husband. Rather than him getting a full picture, some of its is shuttled over to you.

You are starting to wean yourselves from each other. That is good. Don't lose site that you are not really helping each other cope with life - your escaping it.

Yes, I take all of this on board. Following previous discussions I am taking the intensity out of it all while slowly and gently letting her go. We are not going to meet again or sleep together.

She has always told me that her husband doesn't care about her and is autistic and emotionally closed off. She said he never talks to her. Yes, that is most likely only partly true but I guess we are here because of those feelings of neglect she has regarding her husband.

The big question I have about everything she tells me - assuming she has BPD - is how much do I believe?

[Skip]

What do you think I should do then?

Like we discussed a while back, transition out. Set some milestones for yourself and slowly wind this down. Be a good buddy in the process. She'll let it taper off. You've had 14 years together, its normalized dysfunction (we talked about this) and its not serving you well.

Imagine something serious happens to you and you are in extended hospitalization. Your wife will be by your side sacrificing herself for you. Are you going to sneak calls to your lover then. Are you going to look across the room with your wife sitting in a chair and think, "I don't really know her"?

[RomanticFool]

Like we discussed a while back, transition out. Set some milestones for yourself and slowly wind this down. Be a good buddy in the process. She'll let it taper off. You've had 14 years together, its normalized dysfunction (we talked about this) and its not serving you well.

Imagine something serious happens to you and you are in extended hospitalization. Your wife will be by your side sacrificing herself for you. Are you going to sneak calls to your lover then. Are you going to look across the room with your wife sitting in a chair and think, "I don't really know her"?

Yes, winding it down is exactly what I think I am doing. I remember every discussion we have.

Funnily enough I have actually spoken to the ex about this situation on many occasions and she said 'what would I do if you ever had a heart attack'  - so this question has been on both of our minds.

I know my wife is the person I can trust. I know she is the person in my life. I know she is the person who is real. I also know the ex is little more than a fantasy which is fading - but it hurts like hell to let it go... .

[formflier]

I agree with Skip that you are due much credit for taking this feedback on board.

I agree as well.

Be kind to yourself... .you are in the midst of hard work.

FF

[formflier]

  but it hurts like hell to let it go... .

This is real... .can you focus on this.?... and take some time.  Time for your feelings.

FF

[RomanticFool]

I agree as well.

Be kind to yourself... .you are in the midst of hard work.

Thanks. I am feeling a damn sight better than being in the midst of an obsession. It is lifting and while I am not getting gratification I do at least have emotional sobriety.

This is real... .can you focus on this.?... and take some time.  Time for your feelings.

I have gone through the real terrible pain. I cried myself to sleep for months on end. I prayed. I went to Amsterdam. I came on here. I sat with the pain. I play piano and I spend time with my wife now. I'd say I have focused alot on surviving the pain.

[Skip]

I know my wife is the person I can trust. I know she is the person in my life. I know she is the person who is real.

Does she know this about you?

You cannot redo the past. You can, rise for the future.

[RomanticFool]

Does she know this about you?

You can redo the past. You cannot, rise for the future.

I believe she trusts me which is why I am not going to sleep with my ex again.

I intend to be a better person and husband.

[RomanticFool]

Just wanted to flag up a bit of our conversation tonight:

Her: Thought any more about going to the states?
Me: Depends on many factors.
Her: What are the factors?
Me: Multifarious. A big one being financial. How are you doing?
Her: Flat is the best way to describe my frame of mind
Me: Flat as in not feeling much?
Her: Not feeling anything
Me: How does that affect your life practically?
Her: Other than to make it a chore?
Me: Yes. Can you function enough to work for example?
Her: I get everything done that needs to be done.
Me: I see. What have you been doing today?

We went on to have a good conversation about our days and she signed off in a friendly way. No talk of suicide. No leaving the conversation. It seems to me that flat is an improvement on suicidal. Feedback welcome. (I know I suck at validation and so suggestions on how to carry on the conversation to her specifications would be welcome).

[formflier]

 
So... .look at your post?  Do you "see" a listener?

I don't

I see someone "interviewing" someone else about their feelings... .I see someone "probing".

It's not obvious when this took place, perhaps if was before your decision to be "just a listener".

Not trying to beat you up here... .but it is obvious that what "we see" and "you see" as your role in this... .are quite different.

FF

[RomanticFool]

So... .look at your post?  :)o you "see" a listener?

I don't

I need examples of what I could have said to sound like a listener.

This is as close to listening as I can get at the moment. What am I missing here?

I could quite easily say: 'Wow that must be difficult for you, finding everything a chore' but that isn't how we speak to each other. I am worried she will think I'm being disingenuous.

I see my role as a listener. This is clearly causing confusion because I'm not executing it correctly.

FYI: When I am learning a new skill I find it easier to learn by examples of how to do it, rather than someone just saying 'no that's wrong.' I don't know what I'm doing wrong and it's frustrating me.

Please also bear in mind that the advice I have had on here is that I am not qualified to talk about suicide. If I start delving into her feelings again it may get around to that. I am nervous about getting into it with her now. At least with a cordial conversation I did no harm!

[formflier]

 
Her: Thought any more about going to the states?
Me: Depends on many factors.
Her: What are the factors?
Me: Multifarious. A big one being financial. How are you doing?  (see the shift here... why not end it at financial)
Her: Flat is the best way to describe my frame of mind
Me: Flat as in not feeling much?  (interview question)
Her: Not feeling anything
Me: How does that affect your life practically? (interview question)
Her: Other than to make it a chore?
Me: Yes. Can you function enough to work for example? (interview question)
Her: I get everything done that needs to be done.
Me: I see. What have you been doing today? (interview question)

Basically... .I see you reaching out and pulling information toward you... .pulling her toward you.

Said another way... .looking for things you can listen to.

If she wants you to listen... .she will say it... .

FF style... stay big picture.  Trust that she will tell you something... if she wants you to know it.  You don't need to go looking... .asking... rummaging around.

Can you see that?  Interviewing... vice listening?

And to be clear... .I'm only addressing the "listening" thing.   There is a bigger question of is there a role for you at all here... .even "just listening"

[RomanticFool]

FF,

Her: Thought any more about going to the states?
Me: Depends on many factors.
Her: What are the factors?
Me: Multifarious. A big one being financial. How are you doing?  (see the shift here... why not end it at financial)
Her: Flat is the best way to describe my frame of mind
Me: Flat as in not feeling much?  (interview question)
Her: Not feeling anything
Me: How does that affect your life practically? (interview question)
Her: Other than to make it a chore?
Me: Yes. Can you function enough to work for example? (interview question)
Her: I get everything done that needs to be done.
Me: I see. What have you been doing today? (interview question)

Basically... .I see you reaching out and pulling information toward you... .pulling her toward you.

Said another way... .looking for things you can listen to.

If she wants you to listen... .she will say it... .

FF style... stay big picture.  Trust that she will tell you something... if she wants you to know it.  You don't need to go looking... .asking... rummaging around.

Can you see that?  Interviewing... vice listening?

I don't really understand it at all. I thought validation was the following:

Me: How are you doing?
Her: Flat is the best way to describe my frame of mind
Me: I'm sorry that you're feeling that way, but it's not surprising given what you've been through recently. When you say you're feeling flat do you mean flat as in not feeling much?  
Her: Not feeling anything
Me: That must be very difficult to do things when you're feeling that way. I know I'd struggle to go about my business. How does that affect your life practically?

What you describe as probing and interview questions are really just shorthand for what I have written above. To me validation is about reflecting back thoughts and feelings. Not just being a passive listener. I'm not saying that I guide the conversation but I feedback and summarise what has been said to me thus validating her emotional experience. As I said, my reflections back to her were a kind of less effusive version of what I have written.

[formflier]

  I thought validation was the following:

I'm going to push pause again and reflect on things for a couple days.  Many times threads get down in the weeds.  Many times I influence them to go into the weeds... .and a "big picture" is missed...

Reasoning:  We were talking about listening... it shifted to validation.  Rather than get mixed up in that I would hope to point you back to bigger picture stuff in the thread.
 
Said another way... .you are not facing a "tactical problem" (listen versus validate)... .you are (or should be) focused on the strategic.  (who is my wife to me, who is my ex to me, what role do I play in both their lives, is my role healthy... .)

Can you focus back on the big picture stuff? 

FF

[babyducks]

Just wanted to flag up a bit of our conversation tonight:

We went on to have a good conversation about our days and she signed off in a friendly way. No talk of suicide. No leaving the conversation. It seems to me that flat is an improvement on suicidal. Feedback welcome. (I know I suck at validation and so suggestions on how to carry on the conversation to her specifications would be welcome).

Hi RF,

I am going to pick up the piece about validation.     

I would give the conversation you posted tonight a thumbs up.    I can see the improvement since you started working and thinking about validation, which was what 2 weeks ago?   

I am still going to use this definition of validation, which we talked about before:

Emotional validation is the process of learning about, understanding and expressing acceptance of another person’s emotional experience. Emotional validation is distinguished from emotional invalidation, in which another person’s emotional experiences are rejected, ignored, or judged.

You acknowledged her feelings and didn't reject them or debate them.   Didn't try to fix them or change them.  You accepted what she told you, asked a pertinent question and moved on other topics.

I think this is one step to continue on the path that was discussed upstream in this thread.

Like we discussed a while back, transition out. Set some milestones for yourself and slowly wind this down. Be a good buddy in the process.

'ducks

[RomanticFool]

FF,

I'm going to push pause again and reflect on things for a couple days.  Many times threads get down in the weeds.  Many times I influence them to go into the weeds... .and a "big picture" is missed...

Reasoning:  We were talking about listening... it shifted to validation.  Rather than get mixed up in that I would hope to point you back to bigger picture stuff in the thread.

You asked me if the conversation I posted felt like I was listening... .you stated that you didn't think I was listening. Listening is a very important part of validation. I am dealing with a woman who was/is suicidal and so when we do talk I want to be as validating as I can - in my book this encompasses listening. Sorry for any confusion.

Said another way... .you are not facing a "tactical problem" (listen versus validate)... .you are (or should be) focused on the strategic.  (who is my wife to me, who is my ex to me, what role do I play in both their lives, is my role healthy... .)

Can you focus back on the big picture stuff? 

The role I play in the life of my ex is very clear - I am there as an ear which includes validating her feelings. I am not there as a lover any longer but as a friend who she can turn to. Skip has suggested that I be a 'buddy' to her for now and don't turn my back on her. I am following his advice.

The bigger picture for me is to make sure that I do no harm to this woman and if she does turn to me I be a friend to her and listen and validate her emotions. Please note that there hasn't been any suicide talk for 3 days. Hopefully that means she is talking to somebody else. I will continue to encourage her to do so - as has been suggested to me on here.

[RomanticFool]

Hi ducks,

I am going to pick up the piece about validation.     

I would give the conversation you posted tonight a thumbs up. Doing the right thing   I can see the improvement since you started working and thinking about validation, which was what 2 weeks ago?   

I am relieved to hear you say this because I too thought there was an improvement. I am trying to validate any feelings she has and also be 'radically genuine' and talk the way she is used to me talking to her. I think the fact that she didn't bolt from the conversation suggests she feels comfortable talking. There hasn't been any suicide talk for 3 days and I was heartened that last night she said she felt 'flat' as opposed to suicidal. In any case I have encouraged her to speak to a health professional and close family about it but if she does talk to me then I want to 'do no harm.'

 

I am still going to use this definition of validation, which we talked about before:

Emotional validation is the process of learning about, understanding and expressing acceptance of another person’s emotional experience. Emotional validation is distinguished from emotional invalidation, in which another person’s emotional experiences are rejected, ignored, or judged.

You acknowledged her feelings and didn't reject them or debate them.   Didn't try to fix them or change them.  You accepted what she told you, asked a pertinent question and moved on other topics.

I am glad that reads as validation because I wasn't sure if I had said enough. I was trying hard first and foremost not to be invalidating.

I think this is one step to continue on the path that was discussed upstream in this thread.

Quote from: Skip on August 30, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
Like we discussed a while back, transition out. Set some milestones for yourself and slowly wind this down. Be a good buddy in the process.

This is precisely the advice which I am following.

[RomanticFool]

Hi all,

I just want to say some things to everyone who has posted on here and who is reading this:

1. First and foremost I am acutely aware that my ex is or has been suicidal and that I should not get in the way of her finding the help she requires. I have encouraged her (and will continue to do so) to seek professional help and to confide in her family and friends.

2. I am focusing on listening AND validation because if she does decide to talk to me then I want to 'do no harm.'

3. I am not talking about suicide unless she does. It has been 3 days since she has mentioned suicide. The last couple of conversations have been about our daily lives.

4. My role in my ex's life is clear: I am there as a friend at the moment. I have taken a clear decision to focus on my marriage and to transition my r/s with my ex into something more akin to friendship.

5. I do not feel that she is relying on me solely for help. She has doctors who monitor her (albeit intermittently) from when she made her previous suicide attempt a few months back, she has an AA sponsor, she has colleagues from the suicide prevention charity for whom she volunteers and she has her family. If she feels she needs to turn to me then I will be there for her.

6. I do not think that she considers me her 'primary caregiver.' I certainly do not consider myself as her primary caregiver either. She has many other people as well as me to whom she can turn.

7. I am not getting any kudos or narcissistic altruism from being in contact with her. I have been very concerned for her for a number of months. We were embroiled in an intense r/s for a number of years and the nature of that is now changing. My only concern is that she receives the help from the right people and I be there as a friend if that is what she needs.

8. I asked for help from you all and I received that help. For that I am truly grateful. I will continue to listen to what people tell me around this very serious issue. Thank you.

RF