Don't be a matador and get the bull to charge

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Below is from a discussion about boundaries.

The point I am making and I think everyone can benefit from is to stay away from "threatening boundaries".  Said another way, "don't wave the cape at the bull."  If you say this... then I will do that to "boundary you" is what they will hear.  Very likely they will "charge" and test the boundary.

If he starts insulting my character, I will tell him that I am willing to talk, but not if he's going to be verbally abusive.  If he goes there again, I will pick up my purse and keys, tell him I will be back later, and then leave. (My plan is to have a destination in mind, with something I like to do, like a bookstore, or a nursery).

So... they way it is written above I think would "incite" further verbal abuse.  Especially if they are already upset about something. Still... .it's important to state values and even more important to take action on those values.  You want to do that without "accusing" anyone of anything... .or "pouring gas on the fire".

Here is my suggested course of action.

"I won't continue this conversation while threats are between us" pause "I'm taking a break and will be back in 10 minutes"

Think about how this is said.  First of all... .it packs a lot in a few words. The person saying it owns their actions without blaming. The issue is stated... but nobody is accused.  If the other person wants to "accept" the threat issue... they can... .or they can "leave it on the floor". Last... it references "us"... .togetherness... .a couple.  Then... .gives a time-frame to return. This can be repeated as needed.  Come back in 10 minutes and if there are still threats... .leave again.

Last point:  For all the emphasis I have put on words in this post.  It's the actions that really matter.

If you get flustered... much better to leave... .than to stick around trying to figure out the right thing to say.

[formflier]

Below is from a discussion about boundaries.

The point I am making and I think everyone can benefit from is to stay away from "threatening boundaries".  Said another way, "don't wave the cape at the bull."  If you say this... then I will do that to "boundary you" is what they will hear.  Very likely they will "charge" and test the boundary.

If he starts insulting my character, I will tell him that I am willing to talk, but not if he's going to be verbally abusive.  If he goes there again, I will pick up my purse and keys, tell him I will be back later, and then leave. (My plan is to have a destination in mind, with something I like to do, like a bookstore, or a nursery).

So... they way it is written above I think would "incite" further verbal abuse.  Especially if they are already upset about something. Still... .it's important to state values and even more important to take action on those values.  You want to do that without "accusing" anyone of anything... .or "pouring gas on the fire".

Here is my suggested course of action.

"I won't continue this conversation while threats are between us" pause "I'm taking a break and will be back in 10 minutes"

Think about how this is said.  First of all... .it packs a lot in a few words. The person saying it owns their actions without blaming. The issue is stated... but nobody is accused.  If the other person wants to "accept" the threat issue... they can... .or they can "leave it on the floor". Last... it references "us"... .togetherness... .a couple.  Then... .gives a time-frame to return. This can be repeated as needed.  Come back in 10 minutes and if there are still threats... .leave again.

Last point:  For all the emphasis I have put on words in this post.  It's the actions that really matter.

If you get flustered... much better to leave... .than to stick around trying to figure out the right thing to say.

[pearlsw]

This is really great advice. Given housing/transportation circumstances I can't walk out the door, but even if I could I see that this course of action really just incites more upset for a person with abandonment issues. I have found lately that by taking a break, but making it clear that I am still here and still available to talk when things are calm that things can go a little bit better.

Don't give the other person a fight, period. This is a skill, and not easy in the heat of the moment when the insult bombs start flying in, but it is worth it. Best wishes to all struggling with these issues! I am so glad to know you are all here and I am not suffering alone!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FF and friends,   Let me take this discussion one step further: What happens when one returns from the time out and finds oneself locked out of the house with all the lights off and young kids asleep upstairs?  With one's business clothes in a pile on the front lawn?  The answer, I suggest, is that one heads to a local motel with one's overnight bag that one has left in the car for situations just like this.  How does one respond the next morning when one's son calls and asks, Dad, why did you stay at a motel?

I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, but am posing them to add a realistic note to the discussion.  Boundaries are important, but in my experience may prove ineffective in some situations.

Thanks to all,
LuckyJim

[Skip]

What happens when one returns from the time out and finds oneself locked out of the house with all the lights off and young kids asleep upstairs?  With one's business clothes in a pile on the front lawn?  The answer, I suggest, is that one heads to a local motel with one's overnight bag that one has left in the car for situations just like this.  How does one respond the next morning when one's son calls and asks, Dad, why did you stay at a motel?

What happens?  The same thing that happens if you are attacked by a dog on your way to your car, or if forget to pack a belt in your "go bag"... .

         rethink what works and what doesn't
           and adjust.

This is really great advice. Given housing/transportation circumstances I can't walk out the door, but even if I could I see that this course of action really just incites more upset for a person with abandonment issues.

Absolutely. Walking out, no matter how done, can make matters worse. There are many ways to constructively exit a fight, and many ways to incite more upset, and this is FF main point. You have to try different things until you find what works in your relationship. And you have to be prepared to evolve it as time goes on... .tools get stale.

I have found lately that by taking a break, but making it clear that I am still here and still available to talk when things are calm that things can go a little bit better. Don't give the other person a fight, period. This is a skill, and not easy... .

I think you have this exactly right.

It could be a simple as asking the person to just explain their point calmly, listen, and say I would like a day to think about what you are saying. You might even say, what is the answer you want to hear from me? And just listen.

Or if things are amped up, to say, OK, I want to understand this. Let me walk the dog and lock the doors, get a snack and I'll be back and give you my total attention. And just listen.

Often slowing down the discussion help, spreading it over a day or two, helps.

pwBPD tend to hold things back, then blow up, and then get upset because they are not heard.

[Lucky Jim]

Skip: Well said.  Yes, you have to adjust.  My point is that you have to be prepared for different scenarios when you take a timeout or a break.  LJ

[forlorn]

Interesting perspectives!  The "waving the cape at the bull" thing really makes sense. I thought by connecting my boundaries to the behavior it would make more sense, but it probably just added fuel to the fire.

The reason I leave is because my partner will not respect a time out or a request to table the discussion until later.  He will follow me through the house, increasing the intensity of his verbal attacks until I snap.  I don't want to snap anymore.  When I do, it's terribly destructive to my self-esteem and I end up feeling like an empty shell. I'm too tired and too raw to continue on that way.  So I leave.  I tell him I'll be back and that I love him. I'm trying to leave earlier in the storm now, because, frankly, when it happens I'm a hot mess, and probably shouldn't be driving.  Actually, DEFINITELY shouldn't be driving.  Last time it got like that I ended up walking because I was afraid I'd hurt someone if I was behind the wheel.  So I walked two miles at 11:00 at night to my parents house and then back home again, all the way through our downtown area, which isn't exactly the safest place at night.  But I realized as I was walking that the idea of being hurt by a stranger was much more acceptable that being hurt by someone who says he loves me.  In retrospect, I wasn't thinking rationally.  I don't know how I could have been rational given the amount of stress I was under at that time.

That was a couple of weeks ago.  Since then I've been trying to be very basic about my feelings.  "I feel very unhappy and stressed out right now, so I'm going to go to the store. I'll be back in two hours.  I love you."  It's a little less than satisfying, since I don't feel like I'm communicating the boundary clearly (by leaving it unsaid), but it has made things a little less flammable.

I've been talking to my therapist about boundaries and values, and I really want to invest some time in exploring what they are for me.  I couldn't even tell you right now, other than very generally.  But how can I set and consistently keep something if I don't even really know what it is?  I'm looking for a workbook or something that will help me focus on one thing at a time, since trying to address the whole topic all at once is overwhelming.  Any ideas on what's available or how to break things down into manageable pieces?

[Krato]

Everybody's situation is obviously different, but nowadays I often "wave the cape at the bull" immediately after she gets home just to get it over with. She will snap at some point for me or the kids anyway. I guess this way I feel I am more in control.

It does make me sad as I don't see myself as a person who provokes others on purpose. Usually I avoid conflicts at all costs. And it makes me even sadder I am blaming her for making me this way. I think I am just tired of waiting for the next episode. And every time she rages, I believe I am one step closer to divorce.

If the bull will attack anyway, why resist the inevitable? Better to focus on how to dodge and avoid. I have to say I am quite comfortable in these situations nowadays as I now understand she doesn't have any weapons which would pierce my skin anymore. Fear, no. Guilt, no. Obligation? Only for our children.

[formflier]

If the bull will attack anyway, why resist the inevitable?

Interesting perspective.  I have done this before... .basically when you see "it's about to blow"... .go ahead and prick it. 

The issue I have found is it can lead to validating the "invalid" idea that you are the source of her troubles.

If you "do your part" of the r/s in a healthy way... .and she still rages... .leave her with the rage... let her blame whoever she wants.  Just don't own it yourself... or be part of it.

Perhaps this way she will start to realize it is within her... .and not an external source... .perhaps.

Very little chance if you are actually provoking her... .that she will look internally.

Thoughts?

FF

[forlorn]

If you "do your part" of the r/s in a healthy way... .and she still rages... .leave her with the rage... let her blame whoever she wants.  Just don't own it yourself... or be part of it.

Again, I find myself asking how!  If your pwBPD is not content to be the one holding the rage, and really won't let it go until they've vented it fully upon you, how do you leave it with them.  FF - you and I have talked about this before and you mentioned that my "leave meter" may need adjusting.  I think you're 100% right. I'm struggling, though, with the validation part.  How do I validate something that I don't think is valid?  Even saying something like "I can see you are very frustrated right now" ends up in an argument, because he's clearly not frustrated - he's irritated.  Or some other semantic basis for his tirade. 

So here's a question for all of you - do you ever get tired of being careful about what you say and how you say it?  Even though you truly love your pwBPD?  What do you do with feelings of resentment over the way things are.  I know - it's not their fault, and it must really suck to have these feelings raging around inside.  And I really, really believe that.  But sometimes, I just get worn out by it all.  Very interested to hear your thoughts.

[formflier]

It will take some trial and error to find the "best" way to do the exit in your r/s.  Also remembering that tools can get stale and you need to be able to change your "pitch" (think baseball) as needed.

Also remember that you will have days when you do it wrong... .or just don't care.

The key thing in all of these scenarios is that you trust your partner to care for their own emotions... .even if they do it badly.  No fixing... .No rescuing

I suggest, as a starting point, that you decide to "temporarily leave the conversation" to take care of yourself.

"Hey babe... .this sounds really important.  I'll be back in 10 minutes after I go to the bathroom and freshen up... "

Make sure you come back in 8 or 9 minutes.  Bring a glass of water... .cup of tea... .his and hers bagels... .

Big picture:  You are taking a quick break and slowing things down.  You are informing... .not asking... .yet also making kind gestures, without over the top lovey dovey.

Note:  This would be for when it  is clear that you are headed for a kaboom.  If the kaboom has already happened... .leave for longer and come back and "stick your toe in the water" without mentioning the kaboom. 

Sticking toe in water:  Walk in with ice water and a direct question.  Hey babe... .do you want green beans or broccoli for the meal I'm preparing tomorrow night.

"Broccoli with cheese would be wonderful!" (means she has moved on... .the issue is forgotten... .don't dig up trouble)

"If you loved me you would know... ." (yeah... .not moved on)

Sticking toe in water fixes nothing... .but you need a way to take the emotional temp of the water to see if you want to swim again.  Hint... .don't swim until YOU like the temp.

"Moving your meter... " means that instead of waiting for "I want a divorce, I'm banging the neighbor, and you suck in bed... ." to leave... .you decide that when she is saying things like "If you loved me you would xyz... ." you are going to delay or leave for a bit. 

Think about it another way.  Reflect on conversations that ended in dysregulations.  You can find tipping points.  You want to be gone BEFORE the tipping point.  So... .you are reflecting to see what she says/does that can indicate a tipping point is likely on the way.

I'll hush for now... .can you share your pwBPD's tipping points with us?

FF

[formflier]

 I'm struggling, though, with the validation part.  How do I validate something that I don't think is valid?  

Validation is important... .please don't anyone hear me say otherwise.  I still struggle with it, many of us were not raised in validating homes and it doesn't come naturally.  

Note... absence of validation in childhood is not necessarily abusive... .especially if invalidation is not around.  For instance... .for me... .achievement was praised.  Emotions were something that happened and you moved on.  They weren't bad... .but you didn't dwell on them.  

Things needed to get done and if you sat around crying about baby pigs that died... .it is likely that more would die if you didn't go get your chores done.  It's interesting to note that this "set me up" to do well in the military where "you had a job to do" in really bad circumstances.

This also set me up to "stuff feelings"... .but didn't "cause" me to do it.

My parents never told me "don't feel that way"... .they would give hugs and all that.  It just wasn't "explored".

My wife, on the other hand, had a horribly invalidating environment.  What was OK to feel today, was bad tomorrow, based on the whims of a BPDish mom and absent Dad.  

I digress...

First prioritiy

1.  Boundaries... take care of yourself
2.  :)on't invalidate
3.  :)on't validate the invalid
4.  Validate what you can "see" (what you have a clear validation target for)


I suspect that you are trying to validate when you should be doing 1 2 or 3.

What do you think?

Staying silent is almost always a good idea.

Expressing shock is as well.  "Oh my... .I hadn't heard... .please give me a minute to think... ."   Think about that... .it's honest and it slows things down.

If you notice... .slowing things down is almost always a good idea.  pwBPD "don't emotionally regulate well".  If you can help "slow down" a conversation, perhaps a better outcome can be found.

Realizing, of course, that you are responsible for "your part".  So... .if you have tried to "slow down" once or twice... .that's probably your limit.  After that, trust them to do it their own way... .you go do your thing your own way.

FF