Update - Been gone for a few months but might be back again...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

You can try and find some of my old posts from 3ish months back if you choose but the story is one that is very common among those that have dealt with an Ex that had displayed many of the Waif qualities.

I left these boards back then because I was needing a break from everything since I realized that I was ruminating on things far too much regarding the Ex. 

I also had the arrogance that there was no way she would ever contact me again so I was "safe" to just start fresh and put everything behind me. 

Lo and behold I woke up Thursday morning to the facebook fried request from her.  3 mo after we had last spoke/communicated in any way... .like an ass I texted her these words, "Why now?".  I received the response that she had been "thinking on the good, bad, and ugly and had learned a lot about herself and I wanted you to know but not even sure why I want you to know".  That progressed to "But I realize it's not fair of me to even consider sharing".  When I told her that she was projecting she responded " I am basing it on previous conversations and respect or lack of respect (which I believe I would be showing for sharing with you) I have for your feelings."

So there you have it... .I am now a statistic again.  She reached out and I jumped the in with both feet.  Currently have 86 texts between us in 24 hrs... .I did email her yesterday telling her what I could and could not accept and what I felt were the only reasons for her wanting to share. I also mentioned that I understood I may never hear from her again and I could accept that.  Told her I would not ever contact her first in the future.  Have not heard anything back. 

Who knows, . 

I do still love her but I have created a life without her and I am doing pretty well.  The friend request and the texts brought all of the tightness back to my chest but that has dissipated after the email I sent her. 

For those wondering... .Yes, I would consider having another relationship with her but I do not feel that is where all of this is headed.  I think she just is in need of attention.   Hopefully the email subtly let's her know this and things will go back to the no contact it was.

I am attaching the email I sent her in case anyone is curious and in case anyone might find it useful in some way.

[Doughboy]

You can try and find some of my old posts from 3ish months back if you choose but the story is one that is very common among those that have dealt with an Ex that had displayed many of the Waif qualities.

I left these boards back then because I was needing a break from everything since I realized that I was ruminating on things far too much regarding the Ex. 

I also had the arrogance that there was no way she would ever contact me again so I was "safe" to just start fresh and put everything behind me. 

Lo and behold I woke up Thursday morning to the facebook fried request from her.  3 mo after we had last spoke/communicated in any way... .like an ass I texted her these words, "Why now?".  I received the response that she had been "thinking on the good, bad, and ugly and had learned a lot about herself and I wanted you to know but not even sure why I want you to know".  That progressed to "But I realize it's not fair of me to even consider sharing".  When I told her that she was projecting she responded " I am basing it on previous conversations and respect or lack of respect (which I believe I would be showing for sharing with you) I have for your feelings."

So there you have it... .I am now a statistic again.  She reached out and I jumped the in with both feet.  Currently have 86 texts between us in 24 hrs... .I did email her yesterday telling her what I could and could not accept and what I felt were the only reasons for her wanting to share. I also mentioned that I understood I may never hear from her again and I could accept that.  Told her I would not ever contact her first in the future.  Have not heard anything back. 

Who knows, . 

I do still love her but I have created a life without her and I am doing pretty well.  The friend request and the texts brought all of the tightness back to my chest but that has dissipated after the email I sent her. 

For those wondering... .Yes, I would consider having another relationship with her but I do not feel that is where all of this is headed.  I think she just is in need of attention.   Hopefully the email subtly let's her know this and things will go back to the no contact it was.

I am attaching the email I sent her in case anyone is curious and in case anyone might find it useful in some way.

[Doughboy]

This is the email mentioned above.

"uEx,

For the first time in a long time I had a night of fitful/no sleep.  The communication came as a shock yesterday and after thinking on things I have some concerns I would like to share and then a question.

You said that you have been thinking on the good, the bad, and the ugly and that there are many things you are learning about yourself.  You are also unsure of why you want to share some of these thoughts.  It is the last part that has me concerned/wary.  I mentioned that it might be because we had a very close bond and that you may somewhere deep down know you are safe sharing with me.  I still believe that but it may be other reasons also or some combination.  Here are the thoughts in my head all night about WHY you might want to share.  Please know right now that these are just my thoughts on it and it may be a combination OR it could be for reasons I have not thought of at all... .only you ultimately know your motivations.

1) You may want to share insights and what you have learned about yourself to point out to me how MY actions may have influenced your actions, decisions, or behavior as a way to make yourself feel better.
2) You may want to share insights and what you have learned about yourself as a way to explain away how YOUR actions, decisions, or behavior may have hurt me or the relationship we had as a way to make yourself feel better.
3) You may want to share insights and what you have learned about yourself so YOU can apologize for for how your actions, decisions, or behavior may have hurt me or the relationship.
4) You are trying to be insightful and get it all on the table with the hope that a friendship may be able to develop between us.
5) You are trying to be insightful and get it all on the table with the hope that a Relationship may be able to redevelop between us.
6) You are feeling the need for some attention right now, for whatever reason, and you feel I can provide that because you know the way I, readily admit, have/do/will feel about you at your core.
7) You are wanting to play some cruel game by messing with my emotions in the hope you can hurt me further.

--I do not feel it is #7 in ANY way.
--If it is #1 or #2 then it is not something I want to be a part of in any way.  I was cut very badly by all of this and while most of those wounds have healed some haven't and may never heal.  I am actually in a pretty good place and have grown quite a bit in many areas that I was holding myself back because of my thoughts.
--#3 and #4 I would be open to participating in.
--#6 is something I really don't know how I feel about because it cuts straight to my own weaknesses regarding you and everything that goes with that.
--#5... .good old #5.  I can not see this being the reason for any of it based on everything you have said up to now.  Even your tone a couple times in our recent texts says this is unlikely.  I do not know how I feel if this IS part of the reason... .

I have said in the past, and reinforced yesterday, that I will always be there for you in any way that I can. I do mean that and it is a life-long commitment I will honor.  The one thing I will not be there for is to be dumped on and beaten down.  That is something I can not allow to happen to me.  I have done it to myself and I have allowed too many people to do it too me because I felt I deserved it.  I no longer have those views about myself.  Once I actually opened my ears, brain, and heart to what people told me about myself and actually allowed myself to believe those things I have been very happy and have had a lot of little victory's.

I hope you are able to read this with an open mind and understand what I can and can not allow.

I guess I really don't have a question... .except maybe your thoughts?

Finally, I understand, and can accept, the fact that at any given time I may never hear from you again.  May be after this email!  All of that is obviously your decision and I will respect whatever happens.  This, and the text I am going to send you letting you know I sent this, will be the last time I contact you 1st.  I have enough respect for you, even though I didn't always show it at the end, to honor your words/desires about us not communicating being the best option.  I will let you break whatever silence there is going forward."

[Doughboy]

****UPDATE - Super Long****

Hopefully a final update.  I danced the dance for 12 days.  At times it was really nice and other times it was painful.  Thankfully she is 3 hrs away so nothing in person.  Last night she shared a bunch about her work since we last were together with me telling her awesome and exciting it, and future opportunities looked.  The call was going long so I asked if there was anything else she wanted to talk about and she said, "I just can't do another relationship with you right now.  I would like to be friends if you think that is possible."  I replied no and told her I would be sending her an email that my Counselor told me to have ready if this came to pass. 

I knew this would go one of two ways.  1st - She was just trying to get attention and get her emotional fill.  The 2nd is that she was actually sincere on moving slow, taking baby steps to heal wounds, and seeing if a future relationship was possible.  It was the 1st... .shocking. 

Below is the email I sent her.  BELOW that is the back and forth I had with my Counselor.  I forwarded it to her to keep her updated since we have an appointment on Thursday.

"I understand your decision and it is not unexpected.  It obviously does not make me happy but I am not destroyed either.  The interactions that we had recently followed the pattern and path that my Counselor said they would almost perfectly and I can't ignore that fact.  Her words have been in my mind constantly throughout all of this.

My Counselor said that you may respond to my initial email but most likely not.  Replying would require sharing your feelings and that is not what you want.

She said that we would talk about things but I would be sharing way more stuff, and taking responsibility, while you would stay somewhat closed off, protected, would share very little and be vague on responsibility.  She said that you would not like the things you were hearing because I would be setting up a structure that showed my growth while also holding you accountable for things in the future if that ever came to pass.  I would be open and firm and that is not what you would want... .that you would want the same pushover as before but with better manners.

She said that things would progress slowly and randomly, that push/pull cycle that causes desire that I experienced in the past would be back... .the little morsels tossed out here and there to get me hooked again, so that she can get can get to hear the things she needs to hear: That you think she is beautiful, smart, fun, a friend, you miss her, you Love her, that you will be her always be her "safety net", that she still has you wrapped around her finger.  That even with all of the pain and blame you would still coming running back to her.  She needs to know you are still an option.  She will never admit that is what she is doing but that is the goal, the need, the want.

Then, once she has those things, she will start looking for a problem or you will cause one... .it will most likely be you because you will be way off balance, chasing what once was, not thinking clearly, and wanting to please. Your mouth will get in front of your heart which will be in front of your brain... .it could be anything but it will happen because you are human and she has goals.  She will seize on this item as the opportunity to end things with her being able to blame you so she can stay the better person in her mind.  Ignoring the fact that she reached out putting you into emotional chaos while never emotionally exposing herself.  Probably not even consciously aware she is doing it... .

She has no intention of allowing you to see her in person and will have all kinds of reasons why it can't happen.  Seeing you creates a level of intimacy that she can avoid by keeping you away.  She does not want that intimacy and she knows she can prevent it.  Seeing you makes any feelings she has real, it will challenge the reality she has created, and she does not want that... .she can't have that.  She does not want a relationship she can't control and be dominate. You wanting to have a relationship where there is compromise, accountability, mutual sharing and respect, does not allow for that.

She said that ultimately it is my choice to explore this and she has given me the best tools she can.  She said that it would not turn out well and the emotional abuse I suffered the last time would return and to protect myself as best I could but it will be very difficult for me.

My Counselor was right on almost every point and that makes me extremely mad.  Mostly at myself for allowing you to have this place in my heart.  She was right you would reach out, along with EVERYONE else, and she was right about all of this.  Because of that I have to state the following since she is most likely also correct that this is what I need to do.  She told me to do this last Spring and I refused.  I cannot ignore it any longer.

At this point I am completely done with you in my life.  Do not call me, do not text me, do not email me, do not ever show up at my door.  I have cancelled the debit card and I will be changing the locks on my door and the code to my garage.  In the past, and recently, I have said that I will always be there if you, or the girls, needed me.  That is no longer the case. I am no longer an option in your life in any way, at any time, for any reason.  It pains me to write that as I have never had to do it before now but I have no choice.  The memories of you when things are good are too strong... .you are, and will always be, The One... .but I deserve better that what you are able to give me and who I ultimately become when we are together.

My desire is that you can understand this need to protect myself from you... .my need to make this clear.  You made things clear last Spring, and I respected those wishes, but here we are again.  I WILL NOT reach out in the future.  I will be blocking your number, blocking you on social media, and setting things up so all emails go to my Spam folders.  Your only option will be to ring my doorbell and I feel comfortable saying that you would never stoop so low as to do that.  Your pride and ego would never allow it.  If you did ring the doorbell... .I hope it never happens because that is the one thing I can't prevent as I will not move and I will always have a weakness for you.

I took a risk and it did not work out.  I have no regrets.  Life is too short to not take risks.  You made a decision and you will be held to it.  I should have just ignored everything that Thursday morning and saved us both the wasted time and energy.  I do Love you and I feel that you do Love me.  I know I wanted what you have shown me you are capable of and I think you wanted what you know I am capable of.  We just never synced it up for various reasons... .

I knew in the back of mind we would end up here again but I had a glimmer of hope.  I have learned now that anything that is riding on hope is doomed to cause pain and fail.  It is your truth that has a long history to back it up.  I ignored that history many, many times.  This was my mistake and the last 2 years are something I allowed but I cannot allow to happen in the future.  Hopefully you can respect my wishes going forward and not reach out again.  My Counselor told me months ago that this will be something I will always have to be prepared for, and I have read the same thing in many different places, that because of our history AND your history this cycle will continue and you will at some point, be it 6mo, 1yr, 6yr, want to do this again and again. I do not agree with this part but I have been proven wrong so many times.  I ask that you fight those urges IF you ever have them.
-
Ox


On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 10:28 PM, OX wrote:

Just sent this to HER. We can discuss the details Thursday. I obviously paraphrased some of what you said in the past and recently. Maybe embellished a touch too... .not sure.

I wrote this yesterday because things didn't feel right... .strange vibe from her... .and I wanted to be prepared juat in case.  Well tonight ahe sharwd all about her work and then when I asked if she wanted to continue the call she transitioned into... ."I just don't think I can do this, maybe we can just be friends if that is possible for you."

I am okay right now. Just angry with myself and disappointed in her.  She should not be a problem any longer.

Hope you have had a good day!


On Sep 6, 2017 10:43 AM, Counselor wrote:

OX, Excellent letter/email---you clarified your thoughts, feelings, perceptions with concise articulation. Your message is not angry, but strong, with boundaries that demonstrate good self-care and a shift towards appreciation of just what a wonderful man you are and how fortunate the woman who loves you and is loved by you will be. You are evolving into someone who will have a healthier relationship because it will be the only type that will be acceptable to you. Congratulations on your self-discovery and your ability to not just recognize it, but act on it. Looking forward to seeing you on Thursday.


On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 11:31 AM, OX wrote:

Still hurts through.  I keep thinking she wants what we had and what we could be, as do I, but she is just too damaged and afraid to let it happen without fighting the whole thing.  It goes back to she is not a bad person but a troubled person.

Much like an alcoholic that falls off wagon after 5 yrs.  You don't say, "Man, that Larry is so worthless and dumb. He knows better". You say, "Man, that alcoholism is a nasty disease".

I hate having to punish the person for what I know she can't really control but I have to protect myself at the same time…I just wish, really wish, there was a real solution instead of just giving up on her, us, me, it, etc.  I hate just giving up on anything that is possible or has potential.  Your response will be it is not possible and there is no potential... .I know this, .


On Sep 6, 2017 11:53 AM, Counselor wrote:

Ox, I love how you know me well enough to anticipate my thoughts before I say them and you are spot on----what a smart man you are! Yes, alcoholism like mental illness can be treated successfully, but only when the person takes responsibility by acknowledging it and works REALLY HARD to get to a different place. In HER case, going from a fragmented person who can only dip and dabble in a relationship to a cohesive person who has the capacity to sustain a loving relationship is the issue. This requires long-term, intensive treatment and insight and commitment. HER is not in that space and probably will never be there. I do not demonize the person, but I accurately assess the condition and prognosis. And, I do appreciate your hurt and disappointment---always remember that you are a good, loving man who deserves a healthy, loving relationship."   

[Doughboy]

So, what is the takeaway? 
1st - A good Counselor is worth their weight in Gold when dealing with this stuff.  If you don't have one... .Find one.

2nd - I will always be Super vulnerable to this woman.  I was in a good place for the most part after 5.5 months and BAM... .lost at least 2 months progress.

3rd - My next possible test will be Thanksgiving.  She has spent the last 2 with me at my place.  First was her & I and her Mom & Dad.  Her kids were with their Dad.  Last year was her & I and Her kids & My kids.  This year Her kids are with Dad again.  PLUS I found another pattern :

60 days first split, she ended, and us getting back together. Mutual reach out.
71 days between 2nd end, she ended, and last talk, she instigated.
87 days between last talk and reachout, she instigated.
79 days between now and Thanksgiving!

So the combo of the Holidays and that 2-3 month pattern... .Hold on to your saddle boys and girls because to be completely honest... .Not sure if I will resist... .and that is sad... .I feel I will be dancing this dance the rest of my life.  Especially because in 2.5 years, when her youngest graduates, she will be moving back to town... .

Wish me luck.  I know it can be done.  I also know that people can change if they try.  Maybe she will try... .70% of the time she is amazing, 30% she is horrible.  The cycle between to two is unpredictable.

For those that are interested she is best described as having many Borderline traits, sub clinical, High Functioning Waif.  Diagnosed mild depression, diagnosed ADD, sexually, emotionally, physically, mentally abused by 2nd Husband.

She is pretty great and at her core she is a beautiful, caring woman.  BUT I deserve to have better than she can provide right now... .and possible could never provide.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Ox, Are you hoping for a recycle?  If so, many of us have done it.  If not, why are you putting so much energy into this?  LJ

[Doughboy]

Hey Ox, Are you hoping for a recycle?  If so, many of us have done it.  If not, why are you putting so much energy into this?  LJ

Well I guess "Technically" I have been recycled twice... .maybe 1.5 times.  I am not hoping to do it again.  I did not want this last .5-1 time to be honest.  I was doing pretty well after being told to never contact her, her kids, etc, etc, all my fault, etc, etc.  Then like I said... .here she came out of the bushes.  

Maybe I was delusional convincing myself she never would.  I know I was delusional thinking I could handle it if she did.

I am hoping that a wonderful, but fractured, woman will stay out of my life.  If, and I mean IF, she would pop up again and have some verifiable treatment, etc relating to her issues I would consider slowly giving it a go if I am available.  I am not going to wait for her though.

I am putting this final energy into getting my mind back straight and moving back forward.  I am sharing what I experienced so others can maybe learn, benefit from the emails/insight, to encourage others that you can survive, to encourage those lost on their own to get a Counselor of some type, so I can remember what has happened in a unemotional way.

I have added recent thoughts and experiences to the "folder" I keep in my safe.  I pulled it out to late this time to get the benefit of reviewing the past before I engaged.  Hopefully I will be stronger next time.  There is much left out of this but the jist is there.

Does that make sense?  I do know that not a tear was shed this time around.  I do know that I was trying to get a little closure and I got that finally.  Maybe I was the one playing the game... .not really sure.

Adding!  Just realized i may have been a Triangulation attempt also.  She did mention that she had just started seeing someone "exclusively".  She even texted me last Friday from that date.  Crap, Crap, Crap.  Can't believe I missed this... .

[once removed]

ox,

i dont want to do too much monday morning quarterbacking here, whats done is done. but i would encourage you not to invest too strongly into one narrative or over pathologize things here. it will help going forward.

from where im sitting, it played out like this:

she sent a friend request
she wanted to "share some feelings" and things shes learned
you told her she was projecting
sent a long letter analyzing her motives
you both spent some days catching up
she told you she didnt want to be in a relationship
you let her have it

do i have that about right? is it more than that?

[Doughboy]

ox,

i dont want to do too much monday morning quarterbacking here, whats done is done. but i would encourage you not to invest too strongly into one narrative or over pathologize things here. it will help going forward.

from where im sitting, it played out like this:

she sent a friend request
she wanted to "share some feelings" and things shes learned
you told her she was projecting
sent a long letter analyzing her motives
you both spent some days catching up
she told you she didnt want to be in a relationship
you let her have it

do i have that about right? is it more than that?

It is way more than that unfortunately.  She said she missed the good times and wanted them back, she got SUPER  friendly casual in text and voice conversation. She said she had thought about coming to see me the weekend before the friend request but changed her mind and was considering coming in the Sunday before Labor day but wasn't sure it was a good idea. She saidbshe wanted to talk in person and not over the phone. She convinced me to tell her the details of every aspect of my life without really sharing hers. She said she has learned about her mistakes in relationships and wanted to share... .never did. 
The "projecting" came from her saying she was not sure why she wanted to share but did... .that she knew it was disrespectful. 

I asked from the beginning if she desired leave this window open for a short period of time to explore the possibility of working toward a relationship or should I close it again but for good.  Asked that every time we talked and she just said she wasn't sure... .until there was nothing left to learn about my life since the split.

I let all of this happen by being weak. I get that.  I honestly don't think she liked the fact that I was communicating well, etc.  She knew she would be held accountable if we went forward. She knew I loved her still but not so much I would accept getting walked on again.

I think she had a plan and I did not play my part.

[once removed]

I let all of this happen by being weak.

on the contrary, i dont think you were weak here; i see it as too strong, too much too soon (over pursuing), over sharing, that sort of thing. obviously she came on pretty strong at first, but felt conflicted, gave some early signs of that. pushing in that situation can make a person feel cornered or pressured. asking for "commit or bust" every time you talked is pushing.

I think she had a plan and I did not play my part.

in other words, i get the sense that you were both on different pages. what do you think her plan was?

[Doughboy]

what do you think her plan was?

I think her plan was to try and get validated, get her information, and get out.  At least that was 90% of her plan.  I am ultimately okay with where it stands.  She aggressively cut off all contact last time and then was the one to reach out.  I know I honored her wishes to stay NC and I hope she will now honor mine.

She is toxic without growth and until that can happen for her she needs to stay out of my life.

[Doughboy]

asking for "commit or bust" every time you talked is pushing.

I wasn't asking for a commitment.  I clearly stated every time I asked that I what I wanted to know was should I keep this window open to explore the POSSIBILITY of a future relationship.  That it would take time to get reacquainted, discuss the past issues, how they can be addressed, and how we would prevent issues from reappearing.  That it could take weeks or months to get to that point of knowing and that either one of us may decide it couldn't happen for individual reasons. 

We never even started that process.  Well, she got reacquainted with me but I didn't get to hear too much about her and we never discussed anything about the problems.

I told her every time I asked the question that I was asking it because I needed to protect myself and my progress.  That I would take the risk to both of those if we were taking baby steps toward a possible goal.

[formflier]

Hey Ox!

I can't remember if I've ever been in your threads before.  I picked up a vibe that you are communicating to her and to yourself.  Perhaps "vibe" is not strong enough... perhaps "decision" is better.

Here's what I picked up from reading through it quickly.  I say that, because there are a lot of words there... .a lot. (more later on that).

I did not pick up "commit or bust" (although I see how someone could see that).

What I saw is "Hey... .if you are willing to walk a different path, I'd like to take short hike with you and chat.  Just know... .I'm not "going back the other way.  And... .if this walk goes well, perhaps we take a longer one"

Did I get that about right?

2.  Hey... I'm right there with you on a good counselor being awesome  Mine is PhD level Psychologist.  Older lady.  Lots of life truth, but it seems like Grandma telling you hard things... .but at the same time making you feel safe with milk and cookies.  Hard to explain.

Anyway... .I used to write like you.  I said everything... .tons of detail an analysis.  Many times my messages got lost in all those words.

It's tough in BPD relationships, because there is so much detail that matters... .it's hard to be succinct.

Anyway... something to consider. 

Last:  Solid work standing for your truth... .for your future... for what you need!


FF

[Doughboy]

Hey Ox!


Here's what I picked up from reading through it quickly.  

What I saw is "Hey... .if you are willing to walk a different path, I'd like to take short hike with you and chat.  Just know... .I'm not "going back the other way.  And... .if this walk goes well, perhaps we take a longer one"

Did I get that about right?
FF

You got it EXACTLY right.  It is the truth now and it will be my truth with her every day going forward.

She just didn't want to take the short walk to see if the longer walk is worthwhile.  Her choice.

[sweetheart]

Hi Ox,

And I can hear in your words that you sound upset that she didn't take that hike with you. 

What if anything might you do differently if there is a next time?

And remember sometimes a friend request is just that, a friends request, a bit of reaching out just to say 'hi' - it doesn't make her toxic, or without growth, we are all just human and she might have been missing you too.
Can you in the future just manage a 'hi' back no more, no less and see if that takes you both on a different hike?

[formflier]

I "heard" the same thing sweetheart heard. 

I think I saw the same thing too.

I "heard" a guy that really wanted  her to take the walk and was sad (not devasted... .but sad) that she didn't.  He had really hoped... .

What I "saw" you do was stand up for yourself... .firmly... .strongly... .perhaps like a porcupine.

Maybe next time we don't bring out the porcupine.  What do you think?

FF

[Doughboy]

Hi Ox,

And remember sometimes a friend request is just that, a friends request, a bit of reaching out just to say 'hi' - it doesn't make her toxic, or without growth, we are all just human and she might have been missing you too.
Can you in the future just manage a 'hi' back no more, no less and see if that takes you both on a different hike?

I was told very specifically in the spring to never contact her, her kids, her friends, her mother, do not visit her house, do not email, do not text, do not make any form of contact in any way whatsoever because we are done.

Because of that they friend request just to say hi is startling to say the least

[sweetheart]

I'm not suggesting you contact her, but a 'hi' back might have been easier for you than posing a 'why now?' that then led on to 86 texts in 24 hours.
A 'why now?' is an introduction to a conversation, a hi is not?
You are posting in conflicted, and I read a lot of conflict in your thoughts and responses around her.
And of course her friends request just adds to that conflict so I understand why you would be startled.

What do you want to happen now?

[formflier]

There are so many "angles" to look at all this.

I really think that you did this "correctly"... .for where you are right now.  I do... .please don't here any criticism.

And... .in the future... .if you still feel like "a porcupine"... .then I would encourage you to have a similar "stance" in responding to potential future things.

Here is the thing.  A lot of the "rules" on here are for people that want to have a relationship or want to continue a relationship with a pwBPD.

That's not where you are.  It' appears to me you have a very narrow window... .sliver is perhaps the word, where you will let her back in your life... ."for even a short walk together".

That's where you are... no need to "soft sell it".  Say it like it is.

Thoughts?

FF

[Doughboy]

There are so many "angles" to look at all this.

I really think that you did this "correctly"... .for where you are right now.  I do... .please don't here any criticism.

And... .in the future... .if you still feel like "a porcupine"... .then I would encourage you to have a similar "stance" in responding to potential future things.

Here is the thing.  A lot of the "rules" on here are for people that want to have a relationship or want to continue a relationship with a pwBPD.

That's not where you are.  It' appears to me you have a very narrow window... .sliver is perhaps the word, where you will let her back in your life... ."for even a short walk together".

That's where you are... no need to "soft sell it".  Say it like it is.

Thoughts?

FF

I 100% want her back in my life. I cannot allow that though with the behaviors that she has displayed in the past and that she displayed in the 12 days that we talked. I will be the porcupine if she ever reaches out until she can show me a reason, a valid reason, to put the porcupine spikes down.

The feelings I have for her and the potential that I see in her, and us, are too strong to not fully protect myself. I know that I am weak for her. The ball is now in her Court very firmly to figure out what she wants to do.

She knows what her problems are even though she won't admit them out loud. She's danced around describing them many times but it's just easier to blame someone else for the problems when the problems arise then it is to do the hard work that would fix the root cause.

So I am absolutely open to a short walk because the short walk would convince both of us that we have fixed the different issues that we had that were ours to own. The short walk would turn into a longer walk where we would work through some of the past problems and also allow us to rebuild the intimacy in the bond that would be necessary for a real relationship.

It is very possible that even though we could both work on our individual issues, and work out the past problems, that we may never be able to recreate the intimacy. I'm just not willing to work on the intimacy and expose all the emotions necessary for that when I have no real feeling that the root cause problems are resolved. It's just not healthy for me emotionally.

And I'm aware that the issues for her will never be fully resolved. I'm aware that there will always be certain communication skills I will have to use. I am also aware that there will be times of trouble no matter what. But if I can't have someone that can love me and commit to me in a fashion that is somewhat close to the love and commitment I am able to provide I am cheating myself.

[formflier]

Not to play both sides of it... but to give you stuff to think about.

Many times you get more information with a "soft sell"... .or "good cop" approach... than the bad cop.

If the goal is to keep her away... ."porcupine up".

If the goal is to see if she will really change... .or has really changed.  Honestly... .I would recommend that you stay friendly.  NOT flirty...   big difference.

In a friendly way... .in person... .not text.   Really rather it not be over the phone.

You can test the waters.  "Hey... .can you share how you see our relationship, when you look back at our time together"

Kinda open... .watch... listen. 

If there is defensiveness or blame towards you.  You've got your answer.

If there is sadness... .if there is an apology.  Keep listening.

Just sayin... .in you really want to know about change... .no porcupine.

FF

[Doughboy]

Not to play both sides of it... but to give you stuff to think about.
Many times you get more information with a "soft sell"... .or "good cop" approach... than the bad cop.
If the goal is to keep her away... ."porcupine up".
If the goal is to see if she will really change... .or has really changed.  Honestly... .I would recommend that you stay friendly.  NOT flirty...   big difference.
In a friendly way... .in person... .not text.   Really rather it not be over the phone.
You can test the waters.  "Hey... .can you share how you see our relationship, when you look back at our time together"
Kinda open... .watch... listen. 
If there is defensiveness or blame towards you.  You've got your answer.
If there is sadness... .if there is an apology.  Keep listening.
Just sayin... .in you really want to know about change... .no porcupine.

FF

I have bolded some of the items above. 

The reality of the situation at this point is that I cannot contact her in any way and I have instructed her to not contact me.  She lives 3 hrs away so she would have to drive in, without me knowing, and happen to catch me at home.  Unlikely.

My email was firm on the no contacting me and I have removed all options except the knock on the door.  I do not see her contacting me in the future... .I have held this position in the past and was proven wrong but I will stick with it this time also. 

My Counselor says she will reach out around Thanksgiving/Christmas.

I went to a Medium yesterday, I do believe this stuff after what my Exwife experienced and what I experienced yesterday so please do not judge if you do not believe, and she she sees us going back and forth a few more times with something happening in October/November.  Please understand that she knew nothing of the relationship. She just started out that I have had a relationship, a on and off-on and off-on and off, that had trouble recently but she sees that happening for quite a while.  She said she felt an ultimatum given that induces change in someone that ultimately brings the on and off to a close.

Either way... .I know what I can and what I cannot accept... .I know what I want... .She knows what I want and what I can and cannot accept.  If she sees value in me and us then she will do what is necessary to make that happen.  In the meantime I will continue to do me, work on repairing the damage from this last exchange, and keep moving toward the future.

I WILL always be conflicted about this woman if she never comes back but I cannot tolerate what she is right now. <-- See what I did there!

I will always Love her but that does not mean I can be with her.  This relationship thing takes two people willing to Love, grow, forgive, compromise, commit, etc.   Right now she is unable/unwilling to participate in some of those things.  That may never change... .

[Doughboy]

Well, just to keep things current, I used the long walk/short walk terminology and we went on the short walk.  It went well with discussions about the problems and the causes... .who/what was at fault and it came down to communication was the biggest issue.

Finally though, on Oct. 9th, she told me that she just could not do it.  She said she, with tears in her eyes, "I am not ready for you.  I should have gone to my Counselor this Summer but didn't think I needed to since we were not together.  I now realize that there is something inside me that makes me afraid and makes me doubt.  You are everything I have said I wanted. You have been totally patient with me.  I need to figure out why I keep running from you.  You should run now while you can but I don't want you to." 

I told her I would not run but that I can't do things the way they were in the past.  She then grabbed my arm and half yelled - ":)o you realize you are now a Domestic Violence victim?  Do you realize I have been emotionally abusing you?  Why would you want me... .I am such a mess and i am going to end up old and alone."  I replied that i was aware and that the 2 months of a twice a week Counseling I went to was to help with that abuse and then i was able to just go once a week for my issues.

I told her to do what she needed to do and to let me know in 6 months where she is at but until then please do not contact me.  A few days later I sent her a text pointing out the behaviors we had discussed and how they are similar to traits of BPD and that maybe they could look in that direction a little.  On Oct. 12th she sent me a text saying she was on her way to the Counselor and that she wanted to call me after.  I said okay. 

She called me and within 5 min said that she really didn't have any issues and even if she did maybe she liked being that way.  She also mentioned that I am just trying to control her and fix her and that she was no longer going to be contacting me.  She did also mention that her Counselor told her to research BPD and see if she agreed with any of the "Stuff".  The Counselor actually suggested her going to bpdfamily and reading some of the posts.  **This is what prompted my Username change, btw.

And there you have it... .not sure what was said during that Counselor visit but there was definitely a full 180* turn on her thoughts.  Who knows what the future holds.  I am in a pretty good place right now.  I know she will pop back up into my life at some point and I will need to decide at that time if I let her in again.  As of now she is gone, I am doing a few new hobbies, I have been seeing a woman that is relatively normal by comparison, , and I have been taking some steps to remove any negativity from my life that I can.