Wife had CPS called on her - not by me

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Just got a call from my xw. Sounds like someone called CPS on her. They are interviewing my kids right now. Xw thinks I did it, but I didn't. I know from talking to an old neighbor (who is a retired grade school teacher) that she is pissed at my xw, says she hears her yelling at the kids two houses away. Basically, my xw has made enemies of a couple of our neighbors.

I am kind of freaked out. I am sure she is going to think I was up to this. Does anybody know how I can clear the air? I did want push for a child specialist in our collaborative divorce process, but that's accepted as part of the process and on the up and up.

And apparently this is happening right as S6's 1st grade teacher is coming to the house for an intro visit. I feel bad for my xw. Worried for my kids. This is not what I wanted.

[takingandsending]

Just got a call from my xw. Sounds like someone called CPS on her. They are interviewing my kids right now. Xw thinks I did it, but I didn't. I know from talking to an old neighbor (who is a retired grade school teacher) that she is pissed at my xw, says she hears her yelling at the kids two houses away. Basically, my xw has made enemies of a couple of our neighbors.

I am kind of freaked out. I am sure she is going to think I was up to this. Does anybody know how I can clear the air? I did want push for a child specialist in our collaborative divorce process, but that's accepted as part of the process and on the up and up.

And apparently this is happening right as S6's 1st grade teacher is coming to the house for an intro visit. I feel bad for my xw. Worried for my kids. This is not what I wanted.

[Panda39]

There are natural consequences to our actions.

You can validate her feelings, I imagine she's scared.

No point in JADE it leads no where and if she believes you did it she will continue to believe... .Feelings = Facts.

You could try SET... .I'm sorry someone called CPS it's really scary, I'm concerned too, but it sounds like someone overheard yelling and called it in because they were concerned for the kids.

Sometimes these kinds of crisis' can be helpful.  Hopefully, she thinks twice before yelling at the kids again.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[takingandsending]

Thanks Panda. I did send her a text checking in and empathize get with the general suckiness of the situation. She is projecting on me, but this is her circus. Just wish my kids weren't in the circus too.

I have to work with my own feelings of guilt about this. I am trying to advocate for my boys, not harm my wife. But I feel like the ripples of my thoughts and speech are part of what happened.

When my former neighbor saw me at the marital house a couple months ago, she told me she was on my side and she got why I left - she could hear xw yelling at the kids. I told her she didn't need to take sides, and I am grown up and can take care of myself. I told her to be on the kids' side because they need as many advocates as they can get. I told her to maybe check in with them from time to time, ask how they are doing, let them know she sees them. I didn't expect this.

[Swiggle]

She is on the kids' side by reporting the abusive behavior of their mother. I know it is hard but try not to feel guilty over this, you are doing what you can to take care of your kids longterm. These sorts of things can be helpful should you need evidence for custody. I have a neighbor who lives 600 feet from my house, I've heard her yelling at her 3 girls from inside my home and they are inside hers. She calls them all sorts of vile names, cusses at them and belittles them. I feel bad for them, they go to school with my daughter and seem so sad. Just when I was about to call on her she started dating a new guy, girls went to live with their dad and she hasn't really had the chance to yell. If it happens again I will not hesitate to call for the sake of those girls. Panda is right there are consequences for actions, maybe this will help your kids and shine a light on mom's bad behaviors.

[takingandsending]

Thanks, Swiggle.

It's tough having a total stranger walk in your (well, it's still half my) house and question your children about you have no idea what. But the boys seem sort of okay with it, maybe not really understanding it. My xw says she asked why she was being investigated, and the CPS person told her what the claim was. I didn't ask. My xw insists that it was something that she confided to only one person ... .our S11's T. I think my xw is either selling me a great acting job or has seriously distorted her facts (which seems more likely). If my son's T was so concerned about something to call CPS, wouldn't she at least contact me as well? Finding it hard to believe. And I still have no idea what the hell any of this is about. Overheard yelling I can completely see happening. But now, supposedly, that ain't it.

I brought my kids back to my old house tonight after taking them to dinner. I agreed with my xw that we should jointly talk to the kids about what happened to them today. My xw starts with something like "When people you don't know come into your home, it's not always appropriate to just trust them." At this point, I am wondering "what?" So I said, someone asked the lady who came today to check in on how they were doing, to make sure they are safe and that their mom and dad are taking care of them. And that might have been a little scary or confusing. I told them that their safety and well being is most important, and that their mom and dad love them and are trying to figure out how best to care for them. And if or whenever they have questions, it's okay to ask. I don't know if I came within a mile of validating their feelings about it. I think they both were just confused. And my xw and I were both uncertain and slightly panicked.

I did the best I could. Still fighting through FOG. I know I didn't cause this. I am just praying that nothing worse than I already know has been happening to my kids since I left the house. My xw never hit or was physically violent with the kids or with me. She has always been verbally abusive. I don't know what to make out of this. I am struggling to imagine what she may have confided to S11's T that would prompt a call to CPS. But that doesn't even make sense anyway. I mean, she already told several people stuff like "I wanted to crash the car because S11's anger was invading me when he had a tantrum in the back seat." See, that would be like   . But I spoke to the T about that incident, and she said xw had already talked to her about it, and she did what she could to mirror and encourage xw to look inward v. at my son. I mean if she was going to call CPS ... .that would have been the time to do it, right? And if she did call them, why not tell me since I was worried about it?

Chasing my tail. I need to just wait for the call from CPS and try to find out what this is about.

[Panda39]

I think you did a good job explaining the situation to the kids, hopefully they will follow your example and just be honest.  I'm sure they're scared too and don't want to get either of their parents "in trouble".

You might want to talk with your kids' teachers so they know your kids are under some extra stress at the moment. 

Panda39

[formflier]

T's are "mandatory reporters".  However, my understanding is that most will let someone know when they are discussing "mandatory reporting things".  I've had that happen to me.  I had already called CPS, so I wasn't shocked.

My gut says your wife is doing mostly an acting job.

Think of it this way... .is CPS really going to give you the information so you can figure out who called them on you?

You can imagine this would make people less likely to report... .so... .CPS goes to great lengths to  protect sources, for obvious reasons.

I would also think that, being the Dad, you should reach out and hear it directly from CPS.  It's obvious you are anxious... and I would be too... .so... reach out.

If they tell you something different than what your wife is hearing... .I wouldn't involve wife in solving that... at the moment.

   

Last thing:  Remember... .light shining on problems usually works as a disinfectant. 

Hang in there.


FF

[takingandsending]

Thanks ff.

My gut says your wife is doing mostly an acting job.

This isn't typically her style. She's usually a "I tell it how it is" sort of person - a bit abrasive for many if anything. Not much of a dissembler. Her version of "how it is" is typically badly skewed, but (and I could be blind to it) I haven't experienced her faking her feelings a whole lot. Usually, it's a deep immersion into every feeling, they are all of the utmost importance and what's wrong with you if you don't feel things the way I do.

She has now expressed that she believes it is the collaborative divorce CS (child specialist) that made the call because xw signed a release for CS to talk with S11's T. This would explain, per xw, why this is just now happening 3 months after whatever she confided to S11's T. This seems even less likely to me, as the CS would never get any work as a collaborative divorce specialist if she betrayed client trust in this way.

I think I am going to call CPS today. I don't like having this big unknown hanging over the process.

[formflier]

 
So... .just so you know.


You have a disordered person trying to figure out who anonymously called CPS.  The system is designed so that you never know.

Most of us find that frustrating... .or worse... your wife is magnifying that.

She'll have another theory tomorrow... .and another after that. 

I would challenge you to work on validating fear.  I would challenge you to write out some SET statements.  The T would be that we'll never know.

I wouldn't bring this up until after YOU have called.  I would ask CPS if you can find out who made the report.  I would also ask if you can EXCLUDE people... .as in if they can tell you a neighbor DIDN'T call.

I would be shocked if they tell you... .or if they will exclude people. 

I do want you to be able to be honest, friendly, concerned... .appropriately anxious when you talk to your wife about this. 

Has she asked you if YOU called?  Be prepared... .remember... .be shocked... .in fact... .don't deny if for a bit.

"What.?.(insert name)... .I'm at a loss for words.  Perhaps you called... .(tone is shocked... .honest)"

"(insert name)... .can we come together and focus on our kids.  This CPS thing is worrisome enough"

You know your wife best... .you know the BPD "rules"... .also realize that this is uncharted water (unless previous CPS involvement)... .

Thoughts?

FF

[takingandsending]

FF,

Her first call was to me asking if I had called CPS. I didn't have to be prepared to "act" shocked; I was shocked that anyone had called CPS. I went from that to "just how badly have I been normalizing her yelling/raging, and just how bad has it been since I left?" I didn't JADE. I told her the truth. "No. I did not call CPS. I am shocked. I don't know who called. Are you okay? Are the kids okay?"

I have been doing lots of SET, although not with Truth="we'll never know". I have been staying with Truth="We both want the best for our sons" or Truth="We both don't want our boys to be harmed in this process".

She is in a place of fear and distrust, and I actually do empathize with that. It's not the way I would choose to respond, but when an accusation drops on you out of the blue, her response is not that abnormal. I am not deriving any vindictive pleasure in watching her squirm. The process is kind of terrifying because the determination of what is best for our kids is out of our hands and into the hands of people who know nothing about our situation or our children. So, not hard to empathize with her fear - I feel afraid, too. Concern? Check. Absolutely concerned. Anxious. Check. Very anxious.

The harder part for me is separating out that this is about her and not me. Her words, her actions, her thinking precipitated this call. But because it has an unknown effect on my kids, I feel like there is something that I should be doing to protect them. But I don't know what I am protecting them from. And yes, this is where my FOG is. I see it, but I can't see through it.

[formflier]

Gotcha... .ok

So, I would say that you should consider talking to kids T and asking her to provide input to CPS.

Here is the thing.  The more accurate info they have... .the better.

What is it... .if you can say, that you think was told to CPS?  What did she confide?  Do you know this?

I'm trying to get an idea of if CPS will do anything other than investigate.

At the end of the day... .if they find out that the issue they are investigating is true... it still has to match state law for them to "do anything" about it.

So... .in my CPS experience.  They investigated, but since there were no marks on kids from my wife whipping them... they had to follow state law and "take no action"


This took several months to investigate even though about a month in, I was certain of the outcome. 

For my family... .we had a signed agreement with CPS that we would "comply" with our family therapist during the investigation.  That was what helped our family move forward.  Because my wife was "trapped" in therapy for a few months and couldn't run.

So... .stuff was faced... .that she would normally run from.


Back to your issue. 

Are YOU happy with the way the kids are being cared for at the moment.  Where they sleep and daily care?  Are you able to provide an alternative?

As in if there is a question mark over mom's house... .can kids stay at Dad's house for couple months while this is sorted out.  Any other place that YOU are ok with, grandma and granddaddy... .aunts uncles... .

Just keep this stuff in mind.

FF

[takingandsending]

Well, that's a thought. I'd have no problem with them staying with me until it's sorted out, if that's an option.

FF, I think it was probably some admission of suicidal ideation. In June this year, she had incident w/S11. She picked him up from school, and he was cranky and picking fight with S6. She went to her go to response which is, "let me see your lunch; did you eat?" She sees what he did/didn't eat and likely launches into him. Fight escalates. On way home, she has to stop car and won't drive until he gets his emotions in check. She has well worn groove of projecting her reactions to his upsets on him, and she ties them all into low blood sugar or low sleep. They get home. She said she tells S11 to take care of his food need; she is not going to enable him. She goes upstairs, listens to her self help videos or podcasts or is on the phone with women of wisdom friends. S11 does not eat because he is stuck in helplessness and shame. 4 o'clock rolls around and S11 goes upstairs and tells mom "don't I have dance class today?" She said she replied "I don't know. Do you have dance today? Don't you think you should have reminded me before class started. Now you're going to be late. Did you eat anything?" S11 hits the roof, screams at her that he didn't know what he could eat, projects at her. He is in shame tsunami. She grabs quick snack for him to eat en route, is driving him to dance class. He is tantruming in back seat that he's late and starved. She is explaining that his consequence (more shame). At some point, she said she had thoughts of driving the car into a brick wall or street light because "his anger was invading me. Those weren't my feelings. They were his."

She told all of this to me at the end of that week. I was disturbed. I talked to S11's T the next appointment that I too him to about this and the T informed me xw had already told her about event. I asked what can be done? I am worried about S11 being made to feel he is responsible for his mom wanting to crash the car, and that's a hugely unfair burden. The T told me that she worked with xw, mirrored for her and encouraged her to reflect inward v. project outward. T said S11 is emotionally stunted but can grow with help. That was it.

But my xw has told that same crappy story to several friends and even told the divorce coach and child specialist in our recent 4 way meeting. I was thinking, "good. I don't have to suggest she has a PD; she is doing it herself." So, I don't know if this is the incident in question because she has "confided" this story to a whole lot more people than just S11's T.

But maybe this is the incident that led to the call. Or maybe it's something a whole lot worse.

I am not going to contact S11's T about providing input to CPS unless I know they have already had initial contact with her. I don't want to be seen as trying to direct traffic/coach anyone's responses. But I do like the idea of agreeing that we will work toward the T's recommendations.

Am I happy with the way the kids are cared for at the moment?
Not really. I would like the time between us to be closer to 50/50. I think that would be healthier for them and probably for xw, too. But do I think they get fed, clothed, sleep and looked after? Yes. In general, I do. She has not been physically violent with either child. I have spanked their bums with 2-3 swats maybe 6 times total between the two of them. She has never hit them in my presence. Verbally, she has threatened them plenty. Mostly, she gives them mass doses of shame, and mostly to the older boy.

[formflier]

Confirm you have your own L?  Does L know about this if you have one?

If you were to get your kids... 100%... .for a month or two.  Would you be able to do that?

How many people has she told about this ideation?

Are both your kids in therapy?  How often?

You in T?  Wife?

Trying to get caught up on the story?

FF

[takingandsending]

Have own L, as does she. We are working in collaborative divorce process (started in November 2016), so team is me, xw, two L's, divorce coach (mediator), child specialist (CE). I placed court based terms in parentheses. If we get to collaborative agreement, paperwork gets filed as normal divorce but no court necessary. If process fails, we end up hiring new attorneys and do it through court. The agreements reached and recorded in collaborative can be used, but the L's, divorce coach and child specialist cannot contribute or provide any data on collaborative process to new L's or judge.

Yes. I can manage kids. I spoke with CPS. Doesn't sound like it is going to come to that. All agent could tell me was that someone heard something xw said, raised concern with CPS, and they are investigating context of comment to ensure kids are in safe environment. Agent said she saw no evidence of abuse or that they are in harm's way. They are bright, happy kids, involved in neighborhood and school (community involvement is important factor in safety as more eyes on them). She saw no cause for altering current temporary parent plan. She did ask me if there is history of mental illness. I answered honestly. No official diagnosis. MC advised of BPD in xw based on her experience as city mental health clinician working with BPD patients. xw is high(er) functioning v. low functioning. It's a spectrum disorder. I have not had cause for concern for children's physical safety; I do have concern of long term emotional health of children hence reason for divorce.

Don't know how many times she has shared suicidal ideation. She tells that story to friends sort of like, "Ugh. The things we put up with in our kids. Mine made me want to smash my car by putting his anger into me." Frankly, maybe it just sounds a little funny if you don't know the backstory of BPD. It becomes more insidious when you know that it's pure projection and blame shifting. She isn't going around saying, "everyone would be better off if I were dead. I really want to kill myself and be out of this pain." It's more like, "I want to crash my car. I have been thinking of harming myself."

S11 in therapy every other week - has been for about 2 years. Still trying to find T for S6. I see T every other week. xw not in therapy; she has her life coaches and women of wisdom and healing modalities that make it all better.

[formflier]

OK... do you think that as part of divorce you can put family T and "real T" in there for your xw.

Not that you are going to "fix" her... .but there needs to be some sort of "Reality" that is linked to a court process that she will bump into. 



That will pay off for you bigtime... .over the long term.

Either... .she moderates and children are better.  Or she resists "real" therapy and "real" family T and then the courts get to look at data that suggests Dad can do better for kids... .with more parenting time.

Said another way... .I've found that "boxing in" higher functioning pwBPD (like my wife... .and perhaps yours) is an effective strategy. 

Sounds like you did good with CPS. 

Do you think collaborative divorce will work?  How long till final?

FF

[Panshekay]

Hi T&S, they won't tell you, at least they don't here in US, West Coast... .you know everything our son has been through with cps, dhs... .they won't say anything, no details at all about anything and it involves our son!  I'm sorry your children are going through this but kids have resilience.  I think you handled it well, you didn't call so let that part go. I love what Panda39 said about consequences... .bottom line... .it lays at her feet. Keep us posted, here they have 60 days to close a case... .his last allegation was just closed yesterday... .at 90 days, but they don't have any consequences... .they get to play God.

[ForeverDad]

CPS (even the hospital ER) in my state didn't inform me of incidents.  Well, there was the one time the ER doctor called me and quizzed me about what claimed drugs I had given him, but that was to determine what he ate, not to inform me.  And when I was quizzed about a bruise on my active son's legs when I didn't know she had lost the pediatrician (who withdrew services) and had somehow coerced son to tell the ER nurse I had become enraged and beat him on the shins.  Duh, active kids get bruises and he later said he thought he did it on the monkey bars with his mother.  Oh, and when CPS called me to tell me they were closing a case which they wouldn't talk about.

I told them that their safety and well being is most important, and that their mom and dad love them and are trying to figure out how best to care for them.

Mom and dad love them... .That can be invalidating and confusing.  The children are told their mother loves them yet there are many poor behaviors.  Validation of what happened is okay but don't put a spin on it like the stress and distress caused is okay because they're loved.  Does that make sense?

Actually you should be glad (if it goes the way it should) that CPS responded.  First, it means the neighbors really are alert for the children's welfare.  Second, it starts documenting the poor behaviors through the professionals.  Maybe this incident didn't rise to the level of being 'actionable' and may be closed but it's a foundation for the future.  You may need the professionals actively on your side or at least viewing the disordered parents as less than credible and problematic.  The reality is that much of what parents say is ignored or given little attention but the court does pay greater attention to the professionals' observations, concerns and conclusions.  Too often the system defaults to mothers and this incident, perhaps even intervention, is something you need to have less of an uphill struggle to be an involved parent.

Finally, don't protect their mother.  Don't hide her misdeeds or whatever.  Remember the old saying "tough love"?  Letting her stand on her own two feet as an adult is what is needed here.  Minimizing the incidents will do you no good.  You can avoid triggering her, that makes sense, but don't gloss over misdeeds.

[Panshekay]

Oh, and his case wasn't unfounded... .it was " undetermined". And that was for supposedly sexually touching his son... .but yet he never lost his 50/50 custody... .so what does that say? 

[flourdust]

It seems like a long time to be in a collaborative divorce process. Do you feel the pace of progress is satisfactory?

[takingandsending]

ForeverDad - thanks for the reminder that xw put the kids in the this position in the first place. Hard not to want to reassure them, but admittedly, I had reservations saying what I said and did probably confuse them unnecessarily.

Panshekay - Thanks. Also on west coast. 60 days to close report. CPS agent said likely will have no actionable results. Wait and see, I guess. I did learn from my T that my son's T, the child specialist or any doctor or teacher cannot be anonymous reporters, so despite what xw thinks, they did not initiate this investigation.

flourdust - It is a long time. Although my L told me cases run 2 years on average to finalize, but we have spent 1 year stuck on the same basic part of the divorce. Which makes me think that the maintenance and division of property portions are not going to go too quickly either. To be fair, it took from November to March for us to move into 2 separate households and create at least a temporary parent plan.

So here's a question for you all. Xw was panicked from being investigated. She used BPD logic to shift responsibility on to me "not trusting her as a parent". But it wasn't a yell/strident blame - more victim like magical thinking "by involving child specialist, you have invited in doubt in me". She said she doesn't want to spend money and have people who barely know us/kids making decisions for us. Again, I think she sees that she is not going to come off well with impartial viewers. She offered to talk through parent plan between her and me and our 2 kids. I won't involve the kids in this discussion as it should be an adult discussion. My xw cannot act in adult capacity, but she is afraid right now. So, the question is: do you think I should come in with a position that states, we can call off the child specialist and divorce coach if you agree to one more overnight and to cede primary parent designation if you choose to move out of county? These are the two areas where I have been stuck. I want an additional overnight so that our parent time is close enough that I have a strong case to block any attempts to move the kids out of the area. She has repeatedly spoken of moving out of our city/county, and I fear that once we sell our house, she will have enough money (and she already has loads of entitlement and selfishness) that she will bolt. Her history is that she views the next place as solving all the problems she has.

Ideas?

[formflier]

Yeah... .idea number 1.  Be a tougher negotiator.  You are asking to add things to "barely" get to what you want.

You know she wants those other guys gone... .so go big.  Ask for a few more nights... pad your position.

While at the same time suggesting that we either new to  get rid of those evaluators... .or meet more often.  Either way... let's wrap this up.

See the thing is... .use what you suspect what she "fears" and then do the carrot and stick thing.  

Either way... .you win big.  

Remember... .don't "go for fair"... .go to win.

FF

[livednlearned]

So, the question is: do you think I should come in with a position that states, we can call off the child specialist and divorce coach if you agree to one more overnight and to cede primary parent designation if you choose to move out of county? These are the two areas where I have been stuck. I want an additional overnight so that our parent time is close enough that I have a strong case to block any attempts to move the kids out of the area.
Ideas?

She is in fear mode and an ultimatum in which she loses control (e.g. you getting more time with the kids) could escalate that fear.

What arrangements do you have with the divorce coach and child specialist? Are they working toward a goal? What happens if you let them go and end up needing them again if your ex changes her mind?

In my experience, which is very different than yours (he was on the dangerous spectrum, and a former trial attorney), I had to negotiate as though my ex was not capable of rational behavior. He might say something rational in a passing moment, but over time this was rarely something he could sustain. I had to focus on his actions, not his words.

If you try to bargain with her, be careful that you do not totally cede the strategy that is working. Don't negotiate with yourself, either. Let her suggest ways to get this off her back. Right now, even though it may not feel like it, you are in the stronger position. The more light shining on the situation, the better, which is what CPS, child specialist, and divorce coach bring you.

You have two things going on that seem slightly separate, and it's probably good to keep them straight in your mind. One is the extra night. The other is the desire to speed things up.

You might have to let go the second one, or focus on it separately, at least for now.

Right now she recognizes she is one-down and wants you to fix it for her. That doesn't necessarily mean she wants you to have the upper hand. She may agree to something to relieve the immediate problem, and then act quickly to obstruct you from the next immediate threat, which is losing an overnight. You will probably have to think 10 steps ahead to make sure your bases are covered, knowing what you know about BPD behaviors.

I do think that if you give her an ultimatum, it may be the end of the collaborative divorce process.

What does your L suggest?

[formflier]

If you try to bargain with her, be careful that you do not totally cede the strategy that is working. Don't negotiate with yourself, either. Let her suggest ways to get this off her back. Right now, even though it may not feel like it, you are in the stronger position. The more light shining on the situation, the better, which is what CPS, child specialist, and divorce coach bring you.

I would suggest figuring out what is working for "your interests" and "her interests"... .possibly "the kids interests", although I would hope yours and the kids would be pretty close together.
 

Right now she recognizes she is one-down and wants you to fix it for her.

You know your wife best.  Similar to LnL figured out how to "pressure" her hubby.  It would seem to me that any way you can pressure your wife more, without seeming to give ultimatums (ultimatums seem bad), would be the best course.

Perhaps musing aloud that wouldn't it be quicker to "get rid" of these guys by just finishing the process...   Since we both agree we'd like to wrap this up.

You will probably have to think 10 steps ahead to make sure your bases are covered, knowing what you know about BPD behaviors.

And knowing what you know about how your wife "performs under stress".

I do think that if you give her an ultimatum

 

Until you are ready to "do" the ultimatum with the L... .I wouldn't use one. 

FF

[takingandsending]

She may agree to something to relieve the immediate problem, and then act quickly to obstruct you from the next immediate threat, which is losing an overnight. You will probably have to think 10 steps ahead to make sure your bases are covered, knowing what you know about BPD behaviors.

This has been the pattern, even with divorce coach. She agrees and then un-agrees (I made up a new word that best describes what is happening). Divorce coach notes we are establishing a new pattern. Then we meet 2 weeks or a month later and xw says that was just a discussion and she doesn't agree. She never offers any ideas. She just keeps delaying to keep status quo until status quo doesn't suit her. When she first agreed to 6 overnights per 2 weeks v. 5 overnights I currently have, I presented it as either 6 overnights or let's move to straight 50/50 schedule. I think I am going to present it that way again.

To be clear, when it suited her for summer, I had 6 overnights. It's for the school year I am trying to gain the extra night. School is just starting and she is already saying how she cannot work and take care of the kids under current schedule demands. I will recommend the additional overnight to occur during the school week but am willing to negotiate it to the weekend if she wants the weekend time off from the kids (which her actions have shown she does).

I will keep going to route of the divorce coach and CS and resist negotiating separately. I do have to let go of this going more quickly, but I have to set some type of deadlines with my attorney, like if we don't have signed parent plan submitted to courts by November, let's replace divorce coach with someone more forceful/assertive.

[GaGrl]

You aren't working a collaborative divorce process -- you are working a wishy-washy divorce process.

What would happen if you meet with your wife and set the expectation that, should an agreement NOT BE SIGNED (not "have an agreement" cuz that is going nowhere in a hurry) by November 1, you intend to end the collaborative divorce process and file under normal divorce proceedings?  Cite the CPS pressure, cite the previous agreement/non-agreement cycle, let her know it isn't working.

[flourdust]

You aren't working a collaborative divorce process -- you are working a wishy-washy divorce process.

What would happen if you meet with your wife and set the expectation that, should an agreement NOT BE SIGNED (not "have an agreement" cuz that is going nowhere in a hurry) by November 1, you intend to end the collaborative divorce process and file under normal divorce proceedings?  Cite the CPS pressure, cite the previous agreement/non-agreement cycle, let her know it isn't working.

I'm in a similar situation right now! We haven't been doing collaborative divorce. About a year ago, the court ordered that we undergo a custody evaluation, which led to a court-led mediation process to develop a parenting plan. That's been going on for the last four months, mostly because my wife drags her feet in responding to my proposals and sometimes comes up with new objections or reverses herself on prior agreements. My attorney has just fired off our final offer with a rather harsh letter, saying that if we don't get her signature, we are terminating the mediation and going back to court.

There are immediate negative consequences if we do this -- she loses a big chunk of parenting time that was granted to her temporarily while mediation was underway. The custody report (which is not favorable to her and documents her mental and behavioral problems) becomes part of the written record. A trial process will be more expensive for both of us, but will also likely get her a less favorable parenting plan.

I honestly don't know if she's rational enough to realize this and respond accordingly. I figure I will either win by having the agreement signed and done, or win in court but lose a lot of money and time that way.

And, like you, we haven't even touched the financial division yet. (Technically, I have given her a detailed proposal; she has never responded.)

[takingandsending]

Gagrl and flourdust,

I think I've posted before about my decision to use the collaborative process v. court. And I think what I said still remains valid. The collaborative team, currently my L, her L, divorce coach and now child specialist, are aware and conclude that I have been the one working on solutions, showing up, and keeping kids' interests first. To that end, I have the better bargaining position.

The question you are asking/advising is: Is that enough to overcome xw BPD behavior? So far, no. I am going to talk to my L about a deadline. If I pull out of this process, I start from scratch on court process, with exception that I can use precedent of current parent schedule. I am considering it.

On the plus side for the kids, I have kept her out of my house and dealt with her complaints about my parenting without getting the kids involved. My house is becoming a safe place for them, and they get this. The other plus is that she has pretty routinely been giving me extra dates as she goes to her classes and training and vacations. All positive for me and the boys and all documented on a calendar. I anticipate that this will continue. So, either way, I have built the case for more time. The child specialist is the next step and that process has just started.

I like the idea of a deadline because this process needs a lot more structure. And I have found that it only occurs when I initiate it.

[livednlearned]

I think you're doing a remarkable job threading the needle here, and it says a lot about you that you can see the big picture even when confronted with all the un-agreeing  (fantastic word).

Are you able to use the divorce coach or child specialist to give testimony or reports in the event you have to hit restart with a new L? It sounds like you have options before having to make this decision, but I'm curious what happens to their involvement and opinions, and whether that goes by the wayside.

[ForeverDad]

I'm not heartless  but I do think that one strong option is to let her face her consequences.  Would she go out of her way to help you if you were in the hot seat with the various agencies and authorities?

I recall when my ex raged at the pediatrician's staff because they let me schedule an appointment when she didn't respond.  The pediatrician saw it as the last straw and sent a letter "withdrawing services".  I didn't know this until afterward and his term in my son's medical record was more blunt, "fire her".  Did she tell me?  No, I had to get the medical records after authorized by the pediatrician's lawyer.  Did I offer to help her smooth things over?  No.  The trial was months away and I presume her losing son's pediatrician was one major reason she caved and settled just before the trial started.

I'm not saying to be vindictive or mean, just beware that you're not enabling her to hide, minimize or excuse her poor behaviors.  If you don't get some parenting or other long term benefit, maybe you should be hesitant to insert yourself into her problems as that could be Gifting Away Your Leverage.

[formflier]

  All positive for me and the boys and all documented on a calendar. I anticipate that this will continue. So, either way, I have built the case for more time. The child specialist is the next step and that process has just started.

I like the idea of a deadline because this process needs a lot more structure.

It seems like you are playing the long game here.  I like that. 

One question about deadlines.  Can you see a trend that as time goes on, you get more and more "extras"?  I'm trying to think about trends and such.  If she gets more and more used to giving up extra "here and there", then perhaps skip the deadline.

Thoughts?

FF