No consequences to his actions

[coworkerfriend]

I feel like I am at my wits end - I don't know how to cope with this anymore.  I have been sticking to staying away from him when he is having a bad episode and has painted me black.  I don't call/text or check on him.  I try to keep myself busy at home and at work.  After a few days, he snaps out of it, comes back to work like nothing happened and we have a few good days.  I am nice to him but I am not overly attentive.   I know this is insane but my hope had been if I am nice, we can get to a place to talk about ending things.   Then something triggers him and he slips into a deeper depression and turns me even blacker than before.  This has been going on for weeks - well actually forever if I think about it. 

It occurred to me that there are absolutely no consequences to his actions - he doesn't want to be in a relationship with me - he doesn't want to work - he comes and goes as he pleases.  I feel stuck. It is taking a deep toll on me.  I am working too much - trying to hold everything together and he doesn't care if the whole place blows up.  He doesn't care if he loses me - he doesn't care about anything. 

I can't have any type of real conversation with him - he's not in a good place long enough.  When he is in a bad place, he calls endlessly - leaves angry messages - comes to the office or my house. There have been days where I drive around just to try and clear my head. 

I agree with him that it is over - I do my very best to keep things going at work.  I really don't know what else I can do.  He is furious if I don't "check" on him - that I let him stay at home in bed for days.  I can't force him to do anything different - or anything at all for that matter.  I don't know what to do.  I feel broken and down and  I try to stay strong - I am totally alone with all of this. 

My therapist is telling me to force him into treatment - I have been resistant to that since he has to want to feel better.  But he tells me that he is who he is - he isn't changing for anyone and he wants out.  He feels there is no hope for him and he has to cut all this out of his life and move on.  I agree with him - tell him I understand and that makes him even more upset.

I don't know what to do - any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. 

[nuthereggsheller]

I sense your distress.  It sounds like you are trying to set healthy boundaries.  And it also sounds like you're having trouble having a clear conversation with him about those boundaries.  I'm not an expert, as I'm new to all this myself, so these are just thoughts to consider.  Maybe setting up a safe time and place to communicate those boundaries, followed by information about what the consquences would be if those boundaries are not respected.  Since this is a coworker, is it an option to bring it to HR after having the personal conversation with him?  Gotta think that one through too, because if he loses his job and blames it on you, it can put you at risk. Is it as far gone as needing legal counsel and a restraining order?  I'm thinking of you.  Pulling for you.

[coworkerfriend]

To make matters more complicated, we have owned the business for the past 10 years - we have employees and customers.  We are personally involved as well but we have separate houses.  I have suggested he take a leave of absence - I have offered to buy him out.  He flips out at either suggestion.  I have considered leaving but I love the business and what I do - I have worked very hard over the years. I don't know if it at legal counsel yet - I have thought about it but that is expensive and I don't know how it would resolve it.

I guess a big part of this is that I am so deeply immersed in it - I can't think clearly.  I never know if or when he will show up or call or text. I haven't had a break from any of this in so long.  I have been trying to do a few things for myself but I can't seem to relax.  I have been living with this for over 10 years - I have only known about BPD for 5 of them.  I can't really remember my old life. 

[Notwendy]

While we are not the ones to determine natural consequences- they happen- if we get out of the way of them. They are a natural teacher. One of our tasks as parents is to let children learn from them- while also protecting them from harm. We would not let a child put themselves in danger, but if not, the natural consequence is the best lesson. A child who forgets his jacket will learn that it feels cold without one. If he forgets his homework, he faces the teacher and a bad grade. If we run after the child with jacket or homework- we take that lesson away from him.

It's a different view of co-dependency. We think we are helping, ( by bringing the homework, or the jacket, or with adults, enabling) but we are actually doing the person a disservice when we do. Naturally, we would not let people we care about harm themselves ( driving drunk, etc, ) if we are in that situation, but life lessons may be just what they need to learn.

An adult who does not show up for work on a regular basis will likely lose their job. Then they won't have money to pay for things they need. This is a natural consequence. If this has not been happening for your partner, it is probably because you have been carrying the ball for both of you. You have done this because you care for him- but you may also be taking away the natural consequence of his actions.

You say he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you. However, he is not taking steps to end it.  If it is your decision to end the relationship, trying to do it his way- waiting for him to talk, waiting for the right time- you are putting him in control of your decision- and he is taking control by not acting. If this is your decision, then it is up to you to take action.

I am not a lawyer, but I think if you do wish to change things- a lawyer is necessary. The two of you own a business together, and there are laws for dissolving a business partnership. This can be messy, and also divorce is messy- but since the way to dissolve both these arrangements is through the legal system, I don't think it can be done without legal counsel. If you are considering this- I think at least getting the information from a lawyer about what is involved would be a first step.

[nuthereggsheller]

Notwendy has a great reply.  I think I just want to say "ditto."  I didn't realize you owned a business together, so you are HR.  You've been at this for so long too, but I'd like to encourage you that, as Notwendy said, you are letting him control your decisions.  I need to examine that about myself too.  Fear has prevented me from just making my own decision for myself. I've been feeling like I need more justification for it.  Anyway, I digress.  Since you own a business, it's imperitive that you get legal counsel.  Most attorneys will give a free 30 minute intro session.

[coworkerfriend]

Gosh I have made such a mess of things.  He has a large bank account - which he uses to pay his bills etc.  I have been carrying the ball completely at work - in an effort to keep things going.  I have been spending much of my time in therapy focusing on my codependent behaviors and I did to a terrible disservice to him during our relationship.  For the most part, I have raised my children to be independent and to live with the natural consequences of their actions.  Any time I felt compelled to do something for them, I would recognize what I was doing. 

With my pwBPD, I think I was equating love with taking care of things.  I look back and I see so many times I kept making the same mistakes and taking the same course of action - keeping us both deep stuck in the cycle.

As I have been imposing more boundaries of not responding to his actions, he has been pushing things more and more.  Placing the blame squarely on me for what is happening in his life.  I keep getting suck in the FOG - sliding back into bad habits in an effort to keep the peace.

Fear has been the driving factor in my actions - or should I say inaction for a very long time.  I have to face my fears.

[Notwendy]

I think many of us are familiar with fear driven behaviors.

I don't own a business but I have heard of this kind of situation happening between business partners. One partner may be carrying the bulk of the work but the other partner has equal access to the money the business makes. People with dysfunctional relationship skills will bring these dysfunctional ways of relating to all their relationships and business relationships can be dysfunctional too.

A good business lawyer is probably the best resource for this. I don't know what the marital laws are in your area either. Some states are 50-50 marital property and that may impact the business situation. On this board, we don't tell people to stay or leave, but a consultation with a business lawyer isn't either-it is getting information so that you know what your choices are. I think it is overwhelming to look at a situation as a whole. Maybe just talking to a lawyer about the business situation would shed some light on the situation for you.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree that speaking with an attorney is a good step. Knowledge is power. And from what I read in your posts, you sound like you're so consumed by running on the work treadmill, you don't have the time or space to get an overview of your situation, either business or personal.

I can really relate to your posts. I owned a business with my xBPDh for many years. Often when we would have disagreements about even minor issues, whether personal or business-related, he would walk off the job and leave me to do all the work myself, which I did.  The more responsibility I took over, the more he expected that I would do. It never seemed to occur to him that I would be tired, overwhelmed, emotional or fragile. He would excuse himself from responsibility if he had any of these feelings, and yet I, the workhorse, would take over and get things done.

I ended our personal relationship first, but I hadn't yet proceeded with the divorce (see treadmill reference above); we still operated the business together. Then, he decided to quit the business. I think he was trying to sabotage it, because he quit at a time when I was completely flooded with responsibilities. I was still paying him an "allowance" since there hadn't been a clean split, either business or personal. I don't think he put two and two together that if the business failed, he wouldn't get his money.

At that point, I got really strategic and hired a manufacturer who could produce our products. I still remember the day when I finalized that deal, after some major logistical problems. Just as I was breathing a sigh of relief, I picked up the mail and read a letter from an attorney that my ex had hired. He asking me for full spousal support. It was surreal, but telling. Somehow he thought that I was going to subsidize his lifestyle for sitting on his azz.

Anyway, it went through some ugly times, but I ended up paying him what, at the time seemed like a significant sum, to just go away. Looking back on it now, I got off really inexpensively. I continued running the business for many years. I had a clean title to my property and built a swimming pool and a much larger house.

I look back on all the years that I endured his insults, his physical abuse and his irresponsibility. And I thank my lucky stars that I finally had enough. There has never been a day that I regretted my split from him, just that I hadn't done it years earlier.

[coworkerfriend]

Thanks Wendy & Cat - I can see that needs to be my next step.  I am slightly concerned about what a small town this is - I don't want any of my "dirty laundry" to be spread around.  I know attorney conversations are privileged and I do need to know what my rights are.

Cat - you completely nailed it on the head - that is exactly what has been happening over the years. I can't even begin to count how many times he has left me with too much to do and I am consumed with running the business. I can't see either my professional or personal relationship clearly.  I feel overwhelmed with it all. I appreciate your insight because you do really understand what I am going through right now.
I have always been fearful of the ugly times which I why I stupidly tried to keep the peace - keep everything together.  I know that none of this will be fixed in a day - which he keeps wanting and pushing for.

I sometimes wish I could just remove myself of all of it to regroup.  Then another work issue hits my office and I am back on the treadmill.  I am just so tired and worn out.

[formflier]

I suggest taking some time to clarify what you are wanting to "end"?

Clarify what you want to "save"?

Go from there.

I would hold off talking to a lawyer till you sort out what you want.

Do you have a CPA that does your books and taxes?  Likely talk to them first before lawyer.

You want to understand cashflow and decision making as it stands right now.  Basically... .who controls money... .who signs POs... .and all that.

The technical details matter.   You MUST understand them in order to mitigate risk while you "end" and "save" things.

FF

[Panda39]

A business partnership is out of my wheelhouse so I'm not completely sure if this is helpful but you might want to document how much you are doing and how often he is out and how that is affecting the business... .kind of like documenting what is going on when you are going through a divorce.

Panda39

[coworkerfriend]

FF -I am very well versed in the money/cpa side of the business.  I have a very close relationship with my CPA and have since I started the business.  I have always handled "the books" as well.   The legal side does make me nervous - I don't know the difference between my rights and what's fair.   I also don't want to open up a can of legal worms at this point in time.

I know I want to save the business - I don't want all this drama to do any further damage to the business.  I am sure about that.  I love what I do and I know I could do a great job if I had the chance.  Not just treading water to try to keep everything afloat. 

I truly don't know how I feel at the moment about having a personal relationship.  I am not delusional enough to think that we could be "friends" after all we have been through. He is unwilling to do anything to change the dynamic - he has told me over and over he can not move past the damage I have done to him by my actions over the years. 

[formflier]

I"m not sure who said it first on these boards... ."When a disordered person tells you how they will treat you... .believe them"

He's not going to get over it.  He said it.  Believe it.

   

As you know, that will extend to all areas of your relationship... business... .personal... .etc etc.

Do you believe him?  (I realize this is different than what you want... .or hope)


Do you have a "private" relationship with the CPA.  As in, can you talk to him without it getting back to your partner.

you to CPA
"Hey... .I'm considering buying out Bob.  Have you been involved in transactions like that in the past?  My guess is we would need legal assistance, can you recommend someone?"

Go from there.

I purposefully asked my previous question ... .I was going fishing and caught the same fish I have caught before.

I don't know of anytime that you have said you would rather have him than the business.  You've been consistent for a while.

Are you ready to take steps to figure out how to "save the business".

Figuring it out... .and doing it are different things.  Measure many times before you cut!

FF

[coworkerfriend]

FF - I know it's been said over and over on this board, when they tell you how they will treat you - you have to believe him. 

I know for a very long time, I was caught up in his words and I wanted so badly to believe he would change. I would  believe that he wanted things to improve and for short periods of time, I would get caught up in his actions.  The period of time when he is in a good frame of mind doesn't last.  It used to last months - then weeks and now it is barely a few days.    He would hate himself for the way he treated me and I would get caught up in thinking that he wanted things to be different too. I have been actively trying to change my behavior - stop the codependency behaviors that have kept me caught up in the cycle.  I guess to answer your question, I have no choice but to believe him.  He is not going to change.  He is making no effort even when he says he is aware that he is hurting everyone around him. 

I want to save the business - I need to take steps - think it though - take my time.  I don't want to get caught up in the emotional drama and make more of a mess of my life than it already is.  I let myself get caught up in the apologies and my desire for things to get better.  I have to stop that.

[formflier]

Solid... .

Involving professionals (CPA, lawyers, therapists) will help you avoid the pitfalls of emotional drama.

There are many non-emotional steps you can take here that support your goal of saving the business.

CPA:  Decide if you can work with the one you have (with appropriate privacy if the CPA can offer it).  If you can't work with this one, perhaps there is a colleague or someone else in same firm you can hire to consult.  Critical that accurate financial data is available.

Lawyer:  Someone that is well versed in splitting a business or buying someone out.  Someone that can guide you through mediation but can also go to court with "knives out", should it be needed.

"Business coach":  Perhaps this is a banker, consultant... .not sure exactly.  The goal is to have someone that can assist and validate your business plans for when the business is yours.  Perhaps with a tight enough plan you can lay some foundation even before the business is yours, especially since it appears you are doing lions share of work at the moment.

This person also needs to help you look 5 and 10 years into the future and make educated guesses about your business and the market in general.

Said another way, don't wait for the company to be yours to develop the business plan. 

Big picture:  Each of these professional specialties have a role to play in gathering data for you to create a metric based decision making matrix to untangle your business.

If I meet this number then x.  If I am not able to meet this number then y.

We're talking business here... .let the financial statements and predictions guide.  I'll trust you to continue your self care work and steadily increase your ability to care for your emotions... .which will be stressed during this process.

Thoughts?

Who have I left out in my professional list?  Perhaps something specific to your industry?

FF

[Notwendy]

Maya Angelou- "When someone shows you who they are, believe them "
Also repeated by Tyler Perry's Madea in Madea's unique way of embedding truth into comedy.

[Grey Kitty]

Your old patterns are to protect him from any natural consequences of his actions--at least in the business, you cover for him the best you can whenever he flakes out or drops the ball.

When he dysregulates, at a personal level, you are getting better at letting him experience the natural consequences--he is very unpleasant to be around, or get your phone blown up by, so you are removing yourself and shutting off your phone--at least a lot more than you did before you started learning the tools here.

Unfortunately, in the business if you let him drop the ball and don't pick it up, he isn't the only one harmed... .so you do still have good reason to clean up his messes, but making a long term plan where he doesn't have the ability to create the messes is your answer. And as you move along that path, he will have many opportunities to change/improve if he chooses to; you can stop if he is making real progress.

[Cat Familiar]

My ex had no guilt whatsoever about walking off the job and leaving all the work to me. He somehow justified this entitlement by something I had done, whether real or imagined.

I finally had a sense of peace in my business after he quit. I'm sure he thought that he was extracting revenge upon me, but it was quite the opposite. It took a bit of time and creative thinking to make his "contribution" unneeded, but I soon realized that he hadn't been bringing much to the table after all.

Not having him bring down my energy with the endless drama, I was able to run the business much more efficiently.

[AskingWhy]

LED, I read your post and am very sorry this is happening.

My only guess is that your BPD H had some very deep and traumatic experiences in his childhood to treat you and his children this way,

People who are BPD/NPD can be very frightening.

I am particularly concerned with the guns.  Your own children have expressed fear over this.  It's one thing to have guns in the house and yet another to be a person who is very volatile with guns.

When a person is in an unregulated rage, anything can happen.  The states of acting out can quickly escalate that the pwBPD cannot control.  As you know, BPDs experience splitting, and in these states cannot experience a continuum of their lives--only the fear or rage they feel at the moment.  This can be disastrous. 

Your first job is to protect yourself and your children.  It is good that you are in counseling with a professional to guide you.

I wish you all the very best.  Having a spouse with BPD or NPD is saddening, terrifying and confusing.

[Fie]

My therapist is telling me to force him into treatment

I think that's an odd advice, coming from a therapist... .but that's my idea.

I agree with the others that talking to a lawyer can't hurt. You are right that it can be expensive ... .but not seeking legal aid might end in a financial disaster ... .I wouldn't wait too long if I were you. Bringing in experts might also alleviate your stress and worries a little.

O and this :

I am totally alone with all of this. 

You are not