Uncaring of imminent infidelity

[Frankee]

Short little update.   I was right.   All this time he's threatened  to cheat,  think has finally come to a head.  Last night when he took a shower,  I  peeked at his phone.  Email I  don't  know about and messages to women  from ads.  Felt my heart crush and felt sick.  I realize that what hurt me the most is that he use to talk to me in a sweet manner in the beginning.  It hurts feeling that he is be nicer and more flirty with women who are basically whores.  Feeling nauseated today.   Not hungry  cause feeling queasy.   What's even worse,  not as upset as I  thought I  might be.  Guess kind of expected it with the constant threats.   And even have the feeling that,  maybe it will give me a break.  Idk.  Just mixed emotions.   More to come later.

[confused4now]

 , I know how you feel, I know a lot of people on this site do. Funny how this works, after you read on here how many people go through cheating, it takes some of the sting out. Don't get me wrong, I was devastated when I opened up my husbands phone and found 2nd lines, apps that had women pictures. He was on a site where you can only call the number if your on the site. I was so shocked, because he hide this from me. I became obsessed on finding out what he was doing. I tracked his car and phone. I could not believe I had been so stupid. After I started therapy, I was able to process the relationship, not just what I "caught him at". I did not check the tracking as much ect. This site has started to bring relief, I am STARTING to realize this is just another behavior, it's not much different from the lies, or spending... .I feel like it took finding the phone stuff to clue in how toxic the relationship had become. Truth be told all the other bad behavior I tolerated, I keep thinking at least he did not cheat. I did not know that  every part of this toxic mess was eroding at me equally. I felt like cheating was the very last thing I would do to a partner. He did not, it was just another way he got his needs met. Rage, lie, cheat.  Hammer, screwdriver, rake. He saw no difference, it was just what tool he needed to get the job done. Hope you can find some peace your in the right spot

[Frankee]

It's sad that a lot of people can relate.  I would read other people's post and say "at least he doesn't cheat".  Guess that can be marked off the "at least he doesn't" list.  I mean, he hasn't done anything physically... yet.  I know am not to blame on any of this.  I do know that since he has not done anything yet (that I know of), I can do my part in trying to steer him away from actually acting on it.  Yelling and screaming and getting angry towards him is a guarantee to basically shove into taking action.  Even more confusing is I really don't have an urge to track his phone or try to read the emails.  Maybe the thought of finding more incriminating messages might be to much to handle.

I posted a reply in another post "How do I stop the Arguments".  Detailing more on what transposed.  I had an okay morning though.  Even after the crushing emails I saw last night... I still was able to get my oldest out of bed, get him ready for school, while taking care of the toddler, while getting ready to go run some errands.  All without getting angry and frustrated.  Even when my oldest was refusing to get out of bed.  Instead of yelling or dragging him out of bed.  I tried a more playful cheery route.  Took longer than I wanted, but at least he didn't wake up throwing a fit.  He is one stubborn child when he gets angry... kind of like his dad (just without all the other stuff to go along).

I just know that I am not to blame.  I have been faithful, never cheated, never even flirted with men.  Even though his repeated accusations of me being the one hiding things and being unfaithful.  Now he has no ground to attack me on those. I actually found proof by seeing the pictures and emails.  He never found anything, just whatever insecurities dancing in his head making believe I was doing something.  Maybe everything I have been through with him has desensitized me into the things he does.  He gets mad when he doesn't get a reaction from me or I don't argue with him... but when I do argue with him and he's really mad... he doesn't play very nice.  I just can't keep beating myself up over the things he does.  Me... messing up and not always following exactly what he has told me (have a hard time following orders like a mindless robot or Stepford Wife) does not give him any sort of reason to start messaging women.  I also know that I need to stop exhibiting codependency towards him  in front of the children.  I heard that also messes kids up.

At the core of everything though.  Behind this masquerade of strength and determination, is a broken heart.  Going to spend a little time, internally weeping for this broken dream.  This is probably the only place that I can express my sadness for the loss of what I thought was going to be a normal healthy relationship and not have people telling me to just "get out".  It really does hurt.  The kind of attention and sexy talk that I have been missing since he swung into Hyde mode is now being directed at a bunch of sluts.  You know with those kind of women they have no self respect and don't care if a man is married or not.  As long as they get theirs.  I need a mental break.  I am drowning and trying to tell myself that it will be okay.  It's not.  Not if I keep doing what I'm doing.  I will go under without even realizing it until I am so far down.

Just got mad at me again.  He lets our baby play with his sunglass goggles when he's wearing them and then screams at me because he can't find them.  Just added fuel because I had to put him on hold when he called and couldn't answer when he called back.  Got a nasty little text message.  Really wanted to tell him to have one of his whores come look for them.  Of course I didn't.  Calmly apologizing that he thought I hung up on him, said I had a guest walk in I had to help and I would look for his glasses to help him.  Got a little flustered when he started getting angry, but feeling okay now.  It just amazes me.  He's the one being an a**hole and messaging other women and he's still acting like a jerk for something that he can't find that's his own damn fault. 

So here's hoping that I will get past all of this and start to emotionally heal.  Wish me luck.

[AskingWhy]

Frankee, I am so sorry about this.  I think people without BPD partners or NPD partners cannot relate, but I know your pain.

The volatile nature of the pwBPD is hard to grasp unless someone has experience it. We have no control over their behaviour.  What we do have control over, though, is accepting what we cannot change and then dealing with that.

I am glad you understand this is not anything you did.  It's about him and him alone.

The hardest thing for me was waking up to the fact that there were things my husband was not capable of.

I wish you the best.

[Frankee]

I am glad you understand this is not anything you did.  It's about him and him alone.

Funny how this works.  I know it's not something I did and it's about his issues.  Doesn't lessen the sting though.  Feeling like they are more attractive, more like him, little more crazy and adventurous... like I use to be.  I use to be enough.  His wild crazy partner in crime.  Now to him... just a mom who doesn't take good enough care of the children and doesn't satisfy his own personal needs who just loves to piss him off all the time.  Deep down I know it's not true and I'm not to blame.  Doesn't stop the thoughts from coming, doesn't ease the hurt, doesn't stop me from getting teary eyed just writing about it.  I use to try to get empathy from him, but I see now it's a fruitless attempt. 

It seems that he wants the old me back.  When we first met.  The reason I'm not now is I have been crushed so much of dealing with all of this... that I'm struggling to breathe.  Even listening to myself, if a friend was telling me the same thing, I would want to pull her away from the situation.  Which makes these confessions even more difficult. 

We were doing good for a few days, now it seems that every headway we were making has just been completely erased.  I try to read and understand the condition, but at times it feels so overwhelming trying to remember everything about reacting, how not to phrase things, being careful with the tone or body language.  Trying to detach, trying to remember it's not personal when they attack even though they seem to know exactly what cruel things to say to hurt us where it counts... .sometimes it's just too much and I just need rest.  Not like eternal rest... just need some quiet sometimes.  So much thoughts and feelings roaring in my head that I understand how someone like him can find it difficult to keep in check... but it's left me not only dealing with my own, but taking on his emotions as well.  I'm human.  I'm going to crash and fall apart.  Just wish somebody was there to help me pick up the pieces instead of stomping them to dust.  Maybe I'm being melodramatic, but it's really just exactly what I'm thinking.

[AskingWhy]

Frankee, the awareness of the pwBPD is a start of managing our own feelings.

Several years ago, when I began to suspect my H uBPD/uNPD, he had the ability to utterly reduce me to tears with his accusations, defenses, projection and rages.  I would be crushed and cry for hours.  Sometimes I could not work the next day.  I now take a more detached approach which is disengagement.  I step back from the feeling of being a wife.

It is still painful, but less so for me.

[Notwendy]

I realize that what hurt me the most is that he use to talk to me in a sweet manner in the beginning.


There was a period of time when my H painted me black. He's always great to everyone at work and yet at home I was getting the ST, or his bad mood. Once we were out and he wasn't speaking to me. We stopped at a gas station and a pretty young co-worker was also getting gas in her car. I know there wasn't anything going on between them, but it was hard to see him acting great to her when he spoke to her briefly, then get back in the car to continue the ST with me.

One of the thing he said to me frequently was " you are nice to everyone but me". If a friend called and I sounded pleasant, he would comment- you speak nicer to that person than you do to me. I don't know if this was truth or projection, but he was the one who spoke sweet and nice to others more than to me.

I think we all do this to some extent- put our best foot forward at work, on a date. When relationships get more intimate, we tend to be- and see- more sides to a person. Not that we should be mean and grouchy to each other all the time, but I think most of us would not show that side to an employer or on a first date.

I think that with some disorders like BPD there is a tendency to put on a false self and hide the true self- the true self is hidden our of fear and self rejection- if (he, she) knew the real me they would not love me. Work personas are more about appropriate boundaries than self hatred or fear. PwBPD have the most difficulties with their most intimate relationships. It is easier for them to have their persona with less intimate relationships. They also have learned that they get positive responses to that persona, which makes them feel good in the short run- but I don't think it does in the long run because they still have that fear and self non- acceptance of their more real self.

I think we all put our best foot forward when we start dating someone, and then, things get more real. I also think when dating someone with BPD it is all persona- that is the Mr Wonderful wasn't entirely real. Maybe we are also responsible for some of the initial idealization- the person seems too good to be true and we are just smitten. That feels good to them.

Once I realized the concept of a false self- I didn't want the sweet stuff from the beginning of the relationship. It has no substance to it. It isn't real. Wishing for our partners to be that person is asking them to put on a mask. I think everyone wants to be accepted for who they are, not just that part of them. Once I learned that, I didn't want the old Mr. Wonderful back. I didn't want to be treated poorly either, but I wanted a regular human being who could be wonderful at times but also tired, grouchy and all other moods too.

I used to fear he'd cheat too. But then I realized that the same pattern would prevail- Mr. Wonderful in the beginning but the persona doesn't last. Dysfunction in a relationship is a part of the person themselves- they would take it into their other relationships. I don't know what your H is doing, but he may be craving the thrill of the encounter with his persona. Flirting online or on a phone line is practically all fantasy. It's a thrill- an illusion, and it doesn't last. It's also a form of escape- like a drug, or other addiction. He can't be all persona with you- you know him better, but he can be with someone who is also putting on their personal online.

It is hurtful but you can't control what he does. I guess you have to see where his boundaries are with this and what are yours. He may think he is doing nothing wrong so long as he isn't physically in bed with them. I don't agree with that, but it may be what he thinks. Whatever it is, the important thing your boundary - whether you choose to continue a relationship with him on those terms or not. You may not know what to do and that is OK too. I think it may help to see that this behavior is more about him than you and that what is underneath this is fear and insecurity which he is trying to alleviate by getting attention online.

[Frankee]

I realize that what hurt me the most is that he use to talk to me in a sweet manner in the beginning.


I think we all do this to some extent- put our best foot forward at work, on a date. When relationships get more intimate, we tend to be- and see- more sides to a person. Not that we should be mean and grouchy to each other all the time, but I think most of us would not show that side to an employer or on a first date.

It is easier for them to have their persona with less intimate relationships. They also have learned that they get positive responses to that persona, which makes them feel good in the short run- but I don't think it does in the long run because they still have that fear and self non- acceptance of their more real self.

Once I realized the concept of a false self- I didn't want the sweet stuff from the beginning of the relationship. It has no substance to it. It isn't real. Wishing for our partners to be that person is asking them to put on a mask. I think everyone wants to be accepted for who they are, not just that part of them. Once I learned that, I didn't want the old Mr. Wonderful back. I didn't want to be treated poorly either, but I wanted a regular human being who could be wonderful at times but also tired, grouchy and all other moods too.

I used to fear he'd cheat too. But then I realized that the same pattern would prevail- Mr. Wonderful in the beginning but the persona doesn't last. Dysfunction in a relationship is a part of the person themselves- they would take it into their other relationships. I don't know what your H is doing, but he may be craving the thrill of the encounter with his persona. Flirting online or on a phone line is practically all fantasy. It's a thrill- an illusion, and it doesn't last. It's also a form of escape- like a drug, or other addiction. He can't be all persona with you- you know him better, but he can be with someone who is also putting on their personal online.

I think it may help to see that this behavior is more about him than you and that what is underneath this is fear and insecurity which he is trying to alleviate by getting attention online.

I really appreciate the insight.  It makes a lot of sense thinking about what you said and it actually gives me a sense of relief.  Part of the nagging me says that he's just looking for attention and as you said the encounter with his persona.  I can read him.  His job, people at his job, people that stop by to say hi or hang out, even his brother and wife from out of town, new people he meets... I observe him quietly.  It's kind of like catching a glimpse at some rare creature out in the wild.  They amaze you at their beauty, how hard they are to find, and don't see very often.  .  Now as you say, short end of the stick.  He has spent so many years playing that part that is the false persona, that he can turn it on with a flip of the switch if absolutely necessary. 

It's a catch-22 I feel.  I get it, the whole put on the false self and wearing a mask to hide his true self.  Then the flip side of it that, he has gotten so comfortable and intimate with me... that it's like, all the masks, the false persona's, the "faking" it... goes right out the window.  As messed up as it sounds, part of me loves the fact that he trusts me enough to let down his guard, show me his dark side, and secretly begging me not to leave.  Don't get me wrong, he's not this mean person all the time.  He does try to be nicer to me, less short tempered, pay me compliments, be aware of when I'm hurt.  It's just... the kind of rage I have seen from him, heard the kind of cruel horrible things, when he gets in a certain way, the man standing before me is a stranger.  It's almost as if the mild form of himself has checked out and replaced with his other side that has a very disturbing look in his eye.

I'm also glad you pointed something out.  Missing all the sweetness in the beginning and wanting it back is like shoving him the mask and saying put it back on.  I really didn't think of it from that angle.  He was at a stage where he was trying to hide his true self.  Honestly, I kind of saw his other self come out when we use to drink.  He would get wild when he drank.  I mean, I do too, but there were times where I was really worried he was going to do something really dangerous, seriously hurt himself or end up in jail.

It's be nagging me.  I've been tempted sneak his phone when he's asleep to check, trying to hack into his email to monitor his activity, spy on him... I'm not going to though.  I told a friend a few days ago that I think finding those messages flipped a switch in me.  I'm hoping it as said that it's stopped at flirting online.  Even though the messages basically asked them for a hook up.  It's hurts, I would think I would be driving myself crazy with trying to figure out what he's up to, that's not how I feel though.  Even starting to feel like myself that's more playful, relaxed, affectionate.  It's almost like finding those messages had the opposite affect.  I still have insidious temptations to check his phone or wondering what he's doing, but I can dismiss them pretty easy.  It's like a weight has been lifted. 

I know it's not about me.  He's torn.  Through the foster homes, abandonment, physical/emotional/sexual abuse by people that were suppose to be caregivers, electroshock therapy, mental hospitals, prison... .the list seems like something out of a heart wrenching fictional story.  He's having serious identity issues.  That might be one of the reasons that what's going on hasn't affected me as devastating as I thought would. 

He's a man who has suffered greatly.  I know his stories, I've seen the scars, I've felt his pain as he talked about how he remembered being a happy child before the system got a hold of him, his dad also leaving him by going to prison, I'm the one that held him when he would have break downs and cry so hard about how broken he was, I'm the one that has seen a side to him that would scare even my father, I picked him up when he would try to harm himself, I was there stopping him when he tried to kill himself, I was there to help him through his drug relapse and would stay up for days, I caught him when he fell back down, I was there when his entire MC club left him because of drugs and he gave it up.

As much as it hurts, it's not like we haven't slept with other women.  Our first time together was even with another woman.  I guess maybe that's another reason it doesn't sting as much.  I've seen first hand that he hasn't gotten emotionally attached, it's always about the thrill and the adventure.  It seems like what it's boiled down to is that we have been through so much.  Looking back at a time where he really did have a collapse in self identity... that was probably the scariest time of our relationship.  There were times where he was so checked out of reality, he would lock down the house... he knew he wasn't in his right mind and was terrified they would come take him away.  As much as it doesn't seem by my posts, he actually has gotten better.  It's a long and hard road, but we've already overcome so much, I'm going to hang in for the long ride.

[Cat Familiar]

Reading your story, Frankee, reminded me of my first husband. He too had a father who went to jail and later died of pneumonia, due to alcoholism when my ex was a small boy. My ex then had to deal with an abusive step father. After we had been together for a few years, he threatened suicide. After I left him, his next girlfriend told me he was holding her hostage with suicide threats.

Starting at the beginning of our relationship, he found opportunities to be unfaithful, and then he lied about it to me. I believed him at first, then his conscience would get the better of him and he'd confess and say that he'd never do it again. And I continued to believe it.

Over the years his acting out became more and more extreme. He would disappear for hours at work at our business and then have some excuse such as a flat tire, needing to help a friend, etc. Years later he told me that during those times he was meeting with prostitutes and that he give them the following story: he had done a drug deal with a friend and he'd left his wallet at his friend's house. He couldn't call his friend because his friend had gone out surfing. The game was to see if he could get them to give their services for free. Some apparently did.

Again, he promised that he'd never do such a thing again. Some years passed and I caught him late at night calling some woman he'd met online, arranging to meet her.

I felt utterly ashamed that my husband would behave this way and that I had believed his excuses and promises to be better. I think because he constantly created chaos in our lives: financial irresponsibility, domestic violence, drug use, etc., I was in a constant state of coping with craziness and trying to keep bills paid, our business running, day to day responsibilities.

Finally I got to the place where I told myself that if he was violent or unfaithful one more time, I was done. And it happened and I got out. (That's another story.)

But now I have the luxury of having an overview of his behavior, now that many years have passed and I no longer feel damaged and distraught. Now that I know about BPD, I think my ex had tremendous self-esteem issues, among other problems. I think he put on a big show of how accomplished and confident he was, but that inside he was terrified. He knew I could see through the act. However, all the women he got involved with, whether they were affairs, one night stands, prostitutes--they just saw the image he painted for them, at least at first--or so he thought. It was like he was desperately trying to shore up his sense of self by using them.

[Notwendy]

2 strong- It seems that your relationship is somewhat "open" then.

I think that when two people are in a monogamous relationship- the boundary is clear. No other people for either one of them. People can choose to have a different type of relationship, but from what i have observed from reading and hearing other stories, it still involves boundaries, spoken or unspoken about them. For instance, there may still be one main couple, with the mutual understanding about how to deal with another partner in the relationship. The difference seems to be that instead of adopting the traditional boundaries that go with monogamy- the couple has their own boundaries.

I think people have the right to choose their relationship boundaries, but monogamy has them built in- and non-monogamy requires two people communicating together to establish their own, as well as be able to manage the feelings that can go along with it such as jealousy. Pw BPD have difficulty with these skills- managing boundaries, communication, and their uncomfortable feelings.

Maybe it would help to assess your own feelings. What are you OK with, and what are you not in a long term relationship. What may have been OK for you in the beginning of your relationship may not feel OK to you now.

[Frankee]

I blew off some steam and did some thinking.  We do have a "loose" version of a monogamous relationship.  We have played with other women and even attended a BDSM club where they had different areas of "play" and we spent a lot of the time in the exhibition room.  I don't like how he's messaging women for him alone.  I'd feel better if he was messaging for us.  I know what he likes and we did have an understanding.  Not just about the whole women thing, but when it's us.  I know that our intimate life has been lacking spice ever since our baby was born.  Been so wrapped up in taking care of the kids and trying to make it through the days. 

Anyways, I did some more thinking and said you know what, I'm taking matters into my own hands.  Yesterday, I sent him dirty texts , telling him the things I was going to do to him tonight.  I get home and get the room set up.  Now, I wake up early and he doesn't get home till 11pm or later.  So I'm losing some of my steam by this time and starting to feel the tiredness creep.  I ended up falling asleep in the recliner before he got home so I had a little power nap.  By the time he comes home, relaxes, showers, and we get to the room... I'm starting to think that sleep seems more appealing by this time.  Instead, I made the effort and did all the things I said I was going to do.  Did some serious role playing where I dominated him.  Have to admit, got a little carried away at times, almost made him pass out... left nail marks, welts, bite marks, and hands prints... .but not once did he tell me to stop... .think it was some pent up aggression towards him, at least I got it out in a way that he enjoyed. 

Today I'm feeling tired from lack of sleep, but better.  I know it's still going to be a rough road trying to figure out how to react, validate, set boundaries.  I guess it's also a matter of really listening.  The last meltdown he had, I was pretty hurt.  After getting past the feeling of being attacked, I really stopped to think about the emotions behind it.  He doesn't know how to self soothe or reel himself back in once he starts raging.  It just kind of has to burn out it's steam.  He was telling me that's he's fighting hard to change who he's been for so long to fit into what he thinks is acceptable in society.  I got angry before.  I kept saying over and over how much of insensitive a*hole he was being.  I wasn't taking time to really understand what he was trying to tell me.  I know who he is. He needs a mental release from the mundane life.  The schedules, the repetition, worrying about bills, rent, the consistency, the drone of every day life... wake up, send kid off to school, leave baby with babysitter, go to work, come home, homework, housework, dinner time, bath time, story time, bed time, wakeup in middle of night with baby... aaand repeat.  Even I find myself mindlessly going through the daily routines. 

Last night, it took me a minute to get into the swing of things, was a little rusty and felt awkward at first.  It was fun though.  I was worried the baby would wake up and interrupt our time together, but he didn't luckily.  I got to literally smack the sh** out of him and beat him with a leash and he enjoyed it.  Maybe I found one of my outlets for getting out my frustration and stress.  I know it's not a cure all for our issues, but if it helps alleviate some stress and gets out pent up aggression, frustration, and anger... why not.  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it seems to work for us.

[Notwendy]

I think you are correct about the difficulty with self soothing. When people have this difficulty, they can choose emotionally and or physically unhealthy ways to deal with that. High intensity situations can be a form of relief. I think what you have done is to find a way to work these high intensity activities into your sex life together. It isn't my cup of tea, but that doesn't matter. This is between you and him and if it works for two consenting adults- then this looks like a solution.

One thing to look out for is where you are with this. If you are doing this for mutual enjoyment and you like it too- then you won't feel resentful. If you feel it is all on you to plan and keep high intensity situations or you are doing it to control his looking around, you may start to feel resentful.

It may help to discuss your boundaries. If it is OK to bring someone else into the relationship for the two of you, but not for him, then this is something to discuss. However boundaries are for us- not a way to control someone else. He has to choose to control what he does- if he chooses that. If he thinks it is OK to look, flirt, but not do more- then that is his boundary.

[Cat Familiar]

Frankee,
I'm wondering if family responsibilities might change the ease of having a "loose version of a monogamous relationship". I've known others who have tried this at times, but they all were childless. What I've typically heard is that one partner ended up falling in love with an outside person and the committed partner felt left out. I wonder how it works out over time when one of the people involved has BPD.

[Frankee]

Having a baby has changed a lot.  I can't say for sure how things work in the long run.  I do know that I have been feeling better last few days.  Not nearly as many "blue" feelings.  Also the last couple of bills that were due went smooth and he didn't get any calls saying there was a problem. 

[Notwendy]

I haven't read a lot of threads on this topic -BPD and more open relationships)but the ones I have seen seem to follow a pattern. It can seem OK to two people in theory, but harder to do this. It seems the pwBPD is OK with it- so long as it is them being the open one. When the non tries it, the emotional reaction from the pwBPD is difficult.

I think it takes a lot of self control of emotions when dealing with a relationship that is open to others. It also takes good communication and establishing some rules- what is OK and what is not. These seem to be skills that pwBPD have difficulty with. I think everyone feels jealousy to some extent if their partner is with someone else. If someone truly wants a more open relationship, they have to manage these feelings.

You may also feel better because of the intensity of the episode with your partner. High intensity situations can have a release and re-set affect. But then resentment and feelings build up. If the two of you find these sessions work to help you- then so long as they involve mutual consent, you've found one solution.

[Frankee]

It's hard to know truth from spouting out nonsense at times.  He's left his phone out unsupervised where it's in plain sight, so he's not even trying to hide it like he was.  Sometimes I wonder if he says things as a way of trying to get my attention.  As for the resentment part, I actually feel less resentment towards him last few days that I had previously.  Thinking on it, it's actually a feeling of mutual enjoyment.  I initialed thought it was to redirect his wandering eye, but I found that it was more fun than anything.  It was an outlet though.  It helped me release stress, pent up emotions, and produced oxytocin (as the doctors say).

Our relationship is far from perfect.  As for things that were said, I still haven't decided if some or any of it was true or he's just living in a fantasy world.  I know his reality is skewed at times.  It also had me thinking though.  Part of me still thinks about the more taboo side of our relationship.  I remember the anticipation of getting all "dolled" up, wearing nice clothes, dressing in a killer sexy outfit, and experiencing the heightened senses of the nightlife of the exclusive clubs, the "beautiful" people who enjoy the same type of encounters we do.  Before any of that though, my kids well being come first.

If any one has kids, maybe they understand the feeling of split sides.  I know I don't have any disorder, but there's the side that isn't the mom or "normal" person at work... it's the part of me that still wants to ride the motorcycles, go back to the tough Ol' lady that was carefree and a bit wild, go out after dark and see what's hiding in the shadows, be able to get rowdy behind closed doors, meet new people that aren't all about PTA, carpooling, grocery shopping, kids schedules, the side that my kids or parents or the school or work don't see.  Then the family part that is a good mom, does all the responsibilities of an attentive parent, wife, employee, spends time with the kids.  Just because I'm a mom, doesn't mean the part of me separate from being a mom has died. 

My personal feeling on certain things is that, I don't mind him watching adult movies, spending "alone" time in the shower, even noticing an attractive woman in public.  I didn't even mind sharing him with other women in the past.  It always went back to, he never cheated, he was always honest when it came to other women that talked to him, he always let me be the initiator when it came to bringing other women into the picture, I never felt like he was trying to cut me out.  It doesn't excuse the messages or pictures I saw.  It seems like he's back to how he was before the last big blowout... Don't get me wrong, I know with these situations it may only be a temporary fix.  That's why I'm here.  I'm just not going to let my waiting for another blow out to ruin the little bit of peace I have right now.

[Notwendy]

I think having children changes things in many ways. Mature parents understand and are invested in providing the time and resources that are needed to raise children. For me, it is my greatest joy. If I were honest- there were also times I was tired, grumpy, and also not as attentive to my H. One of the roughest times- lots of anger, blow outs, was when I was pregnant and with small children. I assumed my H would understand that this was a temporary and necessary time period- nausea of pregnancy, nursing babies. Our sex life isn't as spicy as yours but I thought it was good while he was angry and resentful of the situation and didn't tell me how he felt, just was angry.  I didn't know what was going on.  

My H is very sensitive to any drop in attention to him. It mostly isn't about him- I could be busy with the kids, or work, or have something on my mind, or even get distracted - and he will assume I am doing this on purpose to him- purposely withdrawing attention, love, or sex. There were so many times I was seen as being "Persecutor" on the drama triangle and he as "Victim" that I was not aware of. This would trigger a revengeful anger that to me seemed out of the blue- not connected to anything until I became aware of how he saw things.

Before I realized this, I would use my own co-dependent traits to fix things- be more attentive, do the thing he accused me of not caring for him. It could be anything from sex to not buying his favorite sodas at the store, or even sleeping- I've been accused of "pretending to sleep and ignoring him" when I was fast asleep.  So I would run out to the store to get what he wanted , be more sexy and attentive to try to prove to him that I wasn't doing what he accused me of. But it didn't work. It seemed there was a next episode based on something I didn't do or did that triggered anger out of proportion to what I supposedly did. It was basically JADEing and trying to fix his feelings- but underneath it all was the reasoning based on something that wasn't true about me.

Through MC I had to learn to not try to fix his feeling or change his thinking because we really don't have the power to do this. First she also assessed that if he was angry, that I was not in physical danger. For me to stop trying to fix the feelings, avoid the blow outs, change how he thinks about things, I had to also let him be with his thoughts and feelings. I had to stop JADEing as well.

Being a mother didn't end our sex life but it did change the relationship- it inevitably does. Before, I had more time to be attentive to him, we could go out to dinner or a movie on the spur of the moment,  but now, there had to be plans and a sitter. If a child was not feeling well- well sorry but the child's needs took priority. This wasn't something I did to him. It was us changing our roles to include being parents.

I agree - don't let your partner's moods spoil your inner peace, but you are also a mother now, and he may have to adjust. His behavior may be his way of doing that. Yet, your choice is what you wish to do about that for you.

[Frankee]

Children change everything.  Let me ask though, why can't a "mature" parent spend time, resources, love, care, give the child whatever they can without spoiling them... but still be separate from that?  Don't get me wrong, people that can't do both and end up neglecting the children shouldn't be allowed to have kids.  We had a really down time when I was pregnant.  Intimacy was non existent, I didn't feel attractive at all, sick, nauseous, huge.  But I loved the connection and the bond that grew with my baby.  Even after he was born, the recovery, trying to feel back to some sort of normal.  We had a dry spell.  My kids though, if I had to choose between my SO or my kids, it would be my kids hand down.  I can not imagine being able to move forward in life if they weren't in my life.

My SO was also initially upset about the shift in attention.  He had a hard time that the baby was getting all the attention.  He still wants attention now, but he sees how much I do.  He still asks for little things which I have no problem providing.  I still do the "co-dependency" traits as mentioned.  I understand that are deep seeded emotional issues and scars that I can't fix.  I use to get accused of always sleeping and such.  I have made some adjustments that honestly didn't really affect my daily routine.  I don't go out of my way to run out to get him things or drop everything to do something he asks right then and there.  If I'm out though at the store, I will pick up things he likes.   Even the looking nice part, I do it for myself majority of the time.  It puts a little spring in my step when I do my make up just right or my hair cooperates.  Stuff like that, my SO doesn't really notice. 

I try to not do the JADE thing also.  It's gotten to the point where it's almost automatic to not do it... most of the time.  It's too much trying to deal with the anger or rant that comes from him if he feels I'm doing it.  I just avoid it and try to keep things to the point, which isn't always easy for me.

Even in "normal" relationships, I read that couples should make time for each other, do a date night, schedule alone time, give thanks, praise, acknowledge the things they do for you.  I may rant and get mad about things my SO does or says.  What I realize is that I'm not paying enough attention to the things he does get right or the little things he does for me or says to me.  He still has outburst and yells.  Even the last few days he hasn't really had a full blown explosion.  Sure he's yelled a couple times, but the turn around time where he sees the affect it's having on the kids and his well being has gotten better. 

I love my kids and my SO very much.  It's not always easy and sometimes I have to remind myself that I need more self love and compassion.  I can't hold anything together if I'm not happy.  Things I say may seem selfish or immature.  If I can provide, take care of, spend time, and make sure that my kids and family come first and still have time to do the things I enjoy... no matter how odd or strange they may seem, then I think I'm doing okay.

[Cat Familiar]

I think it's very important for people to retain their identity and not submerge themselves in their roles strictly as husband/wife or parent.

I see far too much codependence in parent/child relationships and that's probably because my BPD mother saw me as her "second chance" for living a better life. It took me years to untangle myself from her and find my "self" because she had so immersed herself in my life, I didn't have the developmental step of individuating from her until far too late.

So I guess I'm sensitive to these things, seeing it in other people and I commend you for maintaining that individuality and not getting lost in the parenting role. I believe it's far healthier to do that than to overly immerse yourself in your children--or your marriage.

I've seen the negative consequences of the former with some of my friends who have adult children who depend upon their parents for responsibilities they should have assumed years ago when they were teenagers.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Cat. It is possible to go too far in either direction. My BPD mother was overwhelmed by her own emotions. She didn't take care of her children in the emotional sense. I became another emotional caretaker to her by the time I was an adolescent. I wanted something different for my children but not to go so far as have them be enmeshed. It's a balance though.

When kids are small, they do need more in terms of care- they need attention at all ages. However, a hungry or wet diaper  infant has to be attended to and can interrupt parental time together. I think parents need some emotional maturity to navigate this change in their partner's availability.

[Frankee]

I've seen the negative consequences of the former with some of my friends who have adult children who depend upon their parents for responsibilities they should have assumed years ago when they were teenagers.

I have a sister like that.  She's 37 now (wow... ) and still live with my parents.  She does have some developmental issues though, wears hearing aids, and has a speech impediment.  She's lived on her own before, but always ends up back at their house.  Last time I knew (we have an estranged relationship) she spent all of her free time locked in her room playing those RPG games.  No attempt to get out there in the real world and actually make a life for herself.  Saddens to think what will happen when my parents pass away.

I've been trying to teach our 6 (almost 7) year old more about responsibilities.  It may be something as simple as not helping him open a pudding container, a new jar of food, pouring his own drinks, helping me get diapers or take out trash.  I know it is so much faster and easier to do it myself, but when he bellows at me because he's having trouble putting peanut butter on a sandwich... makes me realize that he's a little over dependent on me to do everything.  Before anyone overreacts about how I'm the mom and I should be taking care of the kids and doing all of this.  Why is it so bad for me to make my kid help around the house?  My parents did it to me.  I had chores growing up.  Laundry, dishes, take out trash, clean our rooms, feed the dog, etc.  My parents would even make me sit at the table after everyone left if I refused to eat what my mom cooked.  He's old enough to understands directions, I don't want him becoming lazy or treating us like his servants.  Of course, homework, bath time, reading time, and such always come first.  He also has plenty of time to play and watch cartoons.  He's a good kid and play with his baby brother, but he also needs to learn responsibilities.

I don't want my children growing up to be selfish, self absorbed, lazy, co-dependent on electronic devices, or spend 24/7 on social media plastering "selfies" all over the place... especially with predators at every turn.  I know that's how all kids are, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I understand the feeling Cat.  It's different though.  I want my kids to make better choices than me, not make the same mistakes I did, be more responsible in certain aspects.  I want them to have a better, easier life than me.  I love my husband, but he's not an easy man to live with.  I hope they don't get involved with some woman that turns their lives upside down.  At the same time, I realize that they are going to make mistakes or poor choices, but hopefully they'll learn from those mistakes and grow into better men.  That's my hope for them.

[Cat Familiar]

I want my kids to make better choices than me, not make the same mistakes I did, be more responsible in certain aspects.  I want them to have a better, easier life than me.

I think being a parent is an incredibly tough job. You want to protect them, but not to wrap them up in cotton so they don't experience any bumps or falls. Letting them make their own mistakes while you stand by has got to be tough, but such a necessary part of growing up and learning.

A friend who has been overly helpful in her son's life is now dealing with the consequences of that. At age 20, he has no ambition, no desire for any kind of future, except he thinks he can be a professional video game player. He dropped out of college after his mother got him involved in a special arts program for acting/directing. Because her sister has connections in Hollywood, he had some small parts in movies and was somewhat interested in acting.

But due to the lack of motivation and initiative, he seemed to think that things would just land on his doorstep without any effort on his part.

I don't know if it's possible to get him to see that he has to take steps to make things happen in his life and currently his mother is agonizing about how she can get that message through to him. She did nag him to get a job and I think that might help motivate him to make some choices for himself. Otherwise he was happy staying home and playing video games all day long.

I'm glad I didn't choose to have children. I figured that my upbringing with a BPD mom would have either caused me to parent the same way she did, or do a 180 turn and do the opposite. Either way would have been disastrous, I thought. I think parenting is hard enough when you've had good parental role models!

[Frankee]

I think being a parent is an incredibly tough job. You want to protect them, but not to wrap them up in cotton so they don't experience any bumps or falls. Letting them make their own mistakes while you stand by has got to be tough, but such a necessary part of growing up and learning.

 I think parenting is hard enough when you've had good parental role models!

Looking back, I had a great childhood.  There are things that stick out for me also looking back.  I'm not saying what my parents did wrong, they actually made me aware of what I want to teach my kids that I feel they didn't talk enough about.  I grew up being ignorant about credit, importance of college or continuing my education, processing emotions that weren't "tolerated", I felt like I had to hid a lot from my parents, they weren't very open minded, suburban drones that lived only a certain way, my being honest or truthful when I did things wrong was I felt was also reciprocated with punishment for the thing I did wrong or disappointed because I let them down.  I can't recall them saying things like, I appreciate you being honest with us, or if you're truthful, the punishment will be less severe.  They were good parents though.  My mom was stay at home, did things with us, had fun with us, was strict when needed, helpful whenever possible, took us to do things, vacations.  So my childhood was far from bad.  It was almost sheltered though.  I didn't do drugs, break the law, get in a lot of trouble, even wasn't "with" a guy until after high school.  I had it easy.

It's not a bad thing having an easy childhood or free of drama.  Only problem is I was too reliant on my parents.  Even after I left home.  I got into trouble, they'd make it better.  I needed money, they would give it to me.  I needed something fixed with my car, they would take care of it.  I needed something for school or school activities, they would get it.  I know they told me they wanted their kids to have a better and easier life than them, I just may of had it too easy.  I wasn't brought up really having to deal with how tough life can be until I met my ex before my husband.  My people pleasing, co-dependency on my parents did no good because my ex took advantage of that, bullied me into getting things from them, co signing on a pre approval for a house, getting them to help pay off his child support... as you can see, I have made some really poor decisions when it came to a relationship. 

These are things I do not want my children to end up doing. I want them to know the value of hard work, being motivated, strive to not settle for less, be smart when it comes to school, their credit, relationships, guide them, but not do everything for them.  I want to teach them the lessons I feel I lacked when I was growing up.  I want them to have a good childhood, but I want them to be functioning, independent, healthy adults.  Their father is intelligent and strong and I hope they be like him, except without the emotional scars or very horrible experiences.

[Notwendy]

Not to throw labels around but sometimes opposites are different sides of the same dysfunctional coin. Dysfunction also doesn't necessarily have to include BPD. I've been attending ACA meetings and learned that several issues can create a similar pattern in families and between couples- not necessarily around alcohol, but a larger "addiction " model. Addiction used in the larger sense would include using something- or people/relationships - to escape uncomfortable feelings rather than feel them and process them.

If we have children, our task as parents is to help them acquire the skills to manage their own feelings and it is a learning process. Toddlers don't know how to do this- and they have temper tantrums. It is normal for a toddler but not for an adult. If a toddler wants a cookie and we say no, the toddler will pitch a fit. If we give him the cookie, we stop the tantrum but we take away the opportunity to learn to deal with his emotions. So why is it we know to do this with a toddler but are afraid to do this with our adult partners?

One way children learn to self soothe is through self talking. Parents can help older children do this when children express their feelings to them. They will inevitably encounter a bully at school, a dispute with a friend, and so on. We encourage them to talk to us about it- and without invalidating or solving the problem for them- we help them to process and then suggest what they can do. Eventually they learn to do this on their own, and seek advice from others if they need to.

If I look at both my FOO and my H's- the steps to gaining these skills were missing but in different ways. We WOE to manage my mother's rages. My H's family seems like yours. Nobody talked and they acted as if there were no issues in the family, but all families have disagreements - they just didn't talk about them. Kids didn't dare bring up feelings or incidences they were concerned about. This is invalidating too- acting like feelings don't exist , and reacting to them with angry rages are both invalidating.

This is not to blame our parents but to self examine our own self soothing skills and how we deal with feelings. Feelings exist for a reason- often to tell us about ourselves. If we feel angry or resentful- it is a sign to self examine. If we feel positive feelings it also informs us. Feeling our feelings doesn't mean becoming impulsive or overly emotional but ignoring/denying them is the other extreme.

Parents who respond to their child's distress by fixing and solving for them take this emotional growth away, but to not acknowledge the child's feelings feels invalidating.

I think my H and I matched emotionally in the sense that neither of us had role models for dealing with feelings. Considering this- not in the blame sense- but in the what can I do to gain better skills for managing feelings sense- is helpful. I can't work on his part, but by being less reactive emotionally- it decreased the adding emotional fuel to conflicts.