I'm ready to learn the tools VII

[Oncebitten]

i will never understand how she can be so sweet and tell me how much she loves me then walk out 12 hrs later, block me and pretend I never existed.

and some how this is all my fault bc of what happened a yr ago after she dumped me... .

sigh... .and I want to spend my life with her
... whos crazy here?

[Notwendy]

OB, for me, it comes down to accepting that two different people see/process/feel things completely differently. Maybe you wouldn't do this, but she can. It may be hard for you to understand because you and she are different people.

Although your focus has been on her, it really just comes down to you. Why you want this is something only you know.

Black and white thinking ( you are the dream man/ you're the worst person on the planet)  and lack of object permanence ( out of sight out of mind)  may play a part in this- but she is who she is, you are who you are.

I think it may come down to whether or not you choose this path with her, or you decide you don't.  She is who she is.

[Grey Kitty]

i will never understand how she can be so sweet and tell me how much she loves me then walk out 12 hrs later, block me and pretend I never existed.

How many times has she done this to you so far?

I'm making an assumption about your answer and continuing full steam ahead... .if the answer is she never did it before, ignore this next line:

You don't have to understand how/why she does it. But you will be a lot saner and more happy if you believe that a relationship with her is going to include a LOT of this.

[Oncebitten]

GK

yeah she has done this so many times I've lost count.
I guess what I should really ask is why does it upset me so much when she does it?

this last time was bc she said we should just be friends, i said fine and told her I needed some time to get there and calm my mind.  she said fine call me when you feel like you can talk to me as a friend, doesnt matter how long it takes.  I said ok and that was that... .20 mins later I get a text saying not to bother I want you out of my life forever... .did I trigger that abandonment fear so she ended it rather than see if I come back?
it was her idea... .i mean who gets mad at their own plan?

[Grey Kitty]

yeah she has done this so many times I've lost count.
I guess what I should really ask is why does it upset me so much when she does it?

Nah, no need to ask that. It is a really harsh rejection. It SHOULD upset you. There's nothing sneaky or hidden for you to look for there.

Ask yourself why you expect her to do anything differently this time or next time?

And ask yourself why you want to give her another chance to reject you like that.

[Oncebitten]

GK

I may not have to worry about anymore rejection... .she changed her number, blocked me, or deleted every online profile she has... .so yeah short of going to her house or sending a letter.  I cant contact her.

I guess anything we will ever have is completely on her at this point

[Notwendy]

Yes, she is in control of if she wants to contact you or not.

But you also have a choice- and that is to continue to be part of these dynamics that result in you feeling bad, or to decide you have had enough of this, heal, and move on.

It is probably impossible to recover from a relationship that is ongoing, up, down, on, off. Even if she chooses to come back or not. I think the first step to being able to get over this- if this is the path you choose- is to decide that these dynamics are part of being in a relationship with her. She does have control over this. She could choose to be with you all the time if she wanted to make that choice- you have certainly offered this to her. But she chooses not to.

We can't control another person's choices, only our own. Yes, you may wish for her to choose you and stay with that choice but her actions show otherwise. Your choices are to take her as she is- along with all of this- wait for her to come back if she will ( maybe, maybe not) or decide you don't want to be a part of this.

This cycle replicates a drug addiction. When you are on, there is relief from your missing her, you feel happy. Then, she pulls away, you feel bad, can't get her off your mind ( craving) and feel withdrawal- if she comes around again- it is irresistible.

The "cure" for addiction has several steps- one is to get off the addicting substance but that doesn't often do it- the person then needs to get counseling, or do a 12 step program- to deal with the emotions and tendencies to get into the addiction in the first place, and to deal with the temptation of starting again and getting into it again. But the first step is to want to stop and seek support for that. That is also an individual choice.

We all make choices to stay or leave, consider ways to improve the relationship, change our part in it. We can work on emotional sobriety ( decreasing the addiction type drama) for ourselves, in or out of a relationship. We assess other issues such as marriage, children, finances. In your situation you are not currently in a relationship. She has called it off. Your choice is to accept this, or try to continue it in some way if you can.

[Skip]

You wrote this a year ago (13 months)... .

My ex just broke up with me a couple of days ago.  Has begged and pleaded with me to remain friends.  I do still love her and I like the idea of remaining friends but I just don't know if its a good idea.  She let her ex back into her life a couple of months ago.   Against my wishes she kept him around even after he started causing us problems.  She says this isn't about him, but... .

I have no desire to serve as some jealously tool so she can manipulate him.  Like she did me.

Nothing has advanced.

At some point we all need to decide if we are dealing with a relationship issue that is resolvable or just a failed relationship.

What do you think?

[Grey Kitty]

I may not have to worry about anymore rejection... .she changed her number, blocked me, or deleted every online profile she has... .so yeah short of going to her house or sending a letter.  I cant contact her.

I guess anything we will ever have is completely on her at this point

Do you remember when I asked you how many times she had completely rejected you before?

Do I have to ask you how many times she came back for another round after doing exactly that?

Unless she gets run over by a bus, you will hear from her again, with an attempt to pull you in again. (And yes, another cycle of rejection after that)

[BeagleGirl]

I would add another question to what GK has listed:

Ask yourself if you really could be "just friends" or if you would always be hoping/pushing for more.

Either this is your chance to do the work you originally intended to do and get to that place of being okay with being "just friends" on the off chance that she comes back with an offer of friendship or you come to terms with the knowledge that it's either full committed relationship (along with the dynamics you have observed) or nothing.  Then you know that if she comes with offer of friendship you can be clear with her that is not something you desire or could maintain without pretty much guaranteeing hurt for yourself and/or her.  You can leave the door open for a committed relationship as long as you want, but knowing yourself and being authentic is key.

And in the meantime, don't wait for her to come back.  Live your life.  When you find yourself thinking of her and how much you miss her, refocus your energy on the paragraph above. 

[Oncebitten]

beaglegirl

If we are ever to be friends it will be a longtime out... that was really our last talk.  She said we could only be friends... .I explained how much it hurt and how hard that was, she told me to just take a break and call her tomorrow.  I said that wasnt long enough and told her Id call in a couple weeks.  she countered with just call when you have let go of the relationship.  I said ok and left it at that.  about a half hr later she text me and said it was over and we didnt need to talk ever again.  I called we argued, and the next day she changed her number.  thing is the morning this all started she told me how much she loves me and how great I was.

[Skip]

... .thing is the morning this all started she told me how much she loves me and how great I was.

before

... .she told me to just take a break and call her tomorrow.

you reacted here and significantly escalated the conflict.

She then escalated it more.

I know you have said the "tools" won't help your relationship as it is unique, but I really think they would. I encourage you to learn them and start discussing them before the next recycle. You could have easily avoided this by just giving her the space she asked for.

Respectfully and with great concern for your well-being, you keep trying to push this relationship to be something it's not and she keeps walking away when you do.

I get that you don't like be confined to just being one or two partners with her handing out closeness like candy when she is in the mood - but that is all she is willing to do and she has two men who are obliging it - she's good with it.

I would have been gone long ago, but if you want to stay, you have to accept her reality for what it is, not what you think it should be.

[Notwendy]

Skip makes a good point about reacting and how that can escalate things.

How is it that someone can say " I love you" and then cut you off the same day? I am not a mind reader, but love can mean different things to different people, so when she says it, it may not have the same meaning as if you said it.  In a mature relationship, love is a verb- a decision to love that person, even if they make you angry sometimes, or you just don't feel it in the moment, but you choose to love them.  But we can also choose who we love and if we want to have that relationship.

Some people base love on how the other person makes them feel in the moment. This really isn't love for the other person, it is a love for the way this person makes them feel, and if the person isn't making them feel love at the moment, well then, they don't love them.  Some people might love more than one person romantically at the same time, and others could not do that.

Emotions can change. Probably every relationship includes times where the other person just irritates you, or you are angry but in an emotionally healthy relationship, partners can deal with that in an emotionally healthy way. For people with BPD/NPD they tend to see others as extensions of them. They love them when they comply and reflect a positive image back  but may not love them when they don't.

Whatever she is thinking, your choice is based on if you wish to have the situation you have with her, or not. We can not change how someone feels love for us, we can only decide if we want to be a participant in that kind of love as demonstrated by her behavior.

[Oncebitten]

Skip, No i know that the tools would help me greatly.  And In that moment I was taking my feelings into account rather than hers.  All she wanted from me was a friendship, and I agreed to give her that (we discussed how that might possibly fix things), she said she couldnt have me still talking about the relationship.  I said that was fine, she asked if I needed a break from her, and I told her that would probably help.  It was her suggestion that I just wait to call her once I could handle just being friends.  So I agreed to that and left it at that.  I have been very unhappy as of late and she thought it would be good for me to take some time away and fix me so that I could be happy.  Then give friends a try, again I simply agreed to it.  We were both calm when we hung up.  20 mins later she text me and says it wont work, and then the next day she is gone.

NotWendy,

I know her emotions can change on a whim and I am sure after she thought about it she felt abandoned and decided to jump ship rather than wait and see if I ever came back

[Notwendy]

NotWendy,

I know her emotions can change on a whim and I am sure after she thought about it she felt abandoned and decided to jump ship rather than wait and see if I ever came back


Then you already know how she can say she loves you and then later tell you she never wants to speak to you again. Because this is who she is.

This situation has been cycling for a long time now. It's impossible to predict, but if it goes according to the pattern, a recycle may be in your future. She's at the wheel of this relationship train. Your choice is to go for another round, or not. Or let it go.

[Skip]

All she wanted from me was a friendship, and I agreed to give her that (we discussed how that might possibly fix things), she said she couldnt have me still talking about the relationship.  I said that was fine, she asked if I needed a break from her, and I told her that would probably help.  It was her suggestion that I just... .

You can't realistically look at the last year in the isolated microcosm of part of a phone conversation.

You have been over-pursuing this relationship for 13 months or more. That feels needy and weak to the other person and erodes your value to the other person.

When things get stable for you two, you immediately push for marriage. If she doesn't shut that down, you run with it as an agreement. If she tries to back you off, you go into super JADE mode or you get wounded and withdraw.

This doesn't work in relationships. Its note working here.

[Oncebitten]

i understand that... .heres the thing though, when I stopped pushing for more, she would get mad amd want to know why i didnt want more... .or beg me to tell her how much I loved her, ask if I still wanted her etc... .i realize i was pushy and needy, but I also that she pushed for that behavior when it wasnt given

[Skip]

She obviously likes adoration and validation.

She is most willing to reciprocate and provide it back.

I suspect she has a similar relationship with the other guy.

She is not willing to build a long term monogamous relationship.

That's pretty complicated - but isn't that what is playing out.

[Oncebitten]

the other guy isnt even in the picture anymore, he drew his line and walked. 

IDK what she is willing to build, it was always just do it my way, but her way always changed... .that was the problem.  She constantly changed her mind on what she wanted.  She wanted me there, but then would say you cant move that far from your kid, but I miss you and wish you were here now.  I love you, you are the best man I have ever known etc... ."TRIGGER"  you are a no good lying, cheating, worst man I ever met etc... .

I may have pushed to hard, but I was never willing to give up on the relationship, I never back pedaled on what I wanted, I told her that and if that was too much to bear then that's her problem, I was committed.
Im sure one of these days when shes lonely or the new guy doesnt match up or cant handle her like I could I will hear from her... .but I am done chasing her.  I am not going to have her change her number then show up on her doorstep with a new ring, or something else... .I was good to her, I might have made a mess of stuff last summer but I am no worse than she when it comes to that... .I miss her like hell, but when its all over shes gonna miss me too and she is gonna have to live with the fact that she walked out... .not me!

[Oncebitten]

Perhaps its poor timing but I find it ironic and frustrating that now that I am at the point of being able to close the distance with my long distance gf she tells me her feelings have changed and she just wants to be friends.

Is this normal behavior?  Is this just part of the push pull pattern?

Do I simply give up and walk away?  Or should I take this offer of friends and see if she comes back around?

[Oncebitten]

And now that I have backed away and said agreed with "lets just be friends"  she is lashing out at me bc of all  of my wrongs committed during the relationship

[BPDBuddy]

Very normal behavior... .mine did something very similar. emotions have been all over the place and I cannot make sense of it. Stay NC and see what happens, I have the same game plan.

[Oncebitten]

BPDBuddy

care to share your plan?

I have ignored her online comments... .which I am sure is driving her nuts

[Skip]

You wrote this a year ago (16 months)... .

My ex just broke up with me a couple of days ago.  Has begged and pleaded with me to remain friends.  I do still love her and I like the idea of remaining friends but I just don't know if its a good idea.  She let her ex back into her life a couple of months ago.   Against my wishes she kept him around even after he started causing us problems.  She says this isn't about him, but... .

I have no desire to serve as some jealously tool so she can manipulate him.  Like she did me.

Nothing has advanced.

At some point we all need to decide if we are dealing with a relationship issue that is resolvable or just a failed relationship.

What do you think?

[Oncebitten]

Skip

I honestly dont know.  In the last 16 months this has all gone back and forth.  The moment I have enough and walk away she finds some reason to reach out and we reconcile .


Not sure if she will do that this time or not. 

[Notwendy]

I think what Skip means is your decision not hers . You've put the determining factor in her hands to decide. Maybe she reaches out- maybe not. Are the two of you moving forward or doing the same thing over and over again?

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

I thought we were moving forward.  We had a plan in place to eliminate the long distance piece .  But just when everything starts to become real she tells me she doesnt want the relationship any more and we should just be friends.
When I persist she tells me I need to see other people to be sure its her.

I feel like she is confused and I don't know what to do.

[Notwendy]

I know that complicated issues aren't resolved on a one hour TV show, but I have a few Dr. Phil sayings that I think are notable.

The disordered person/enabler model can fit several situations, but the dynamics are similar. In this case a family came to Dr. Phil for help with an adult daughter with anorexia. The whole family was making decisions based on whether or not this person felt like eating or not. If she ate, it was a good day. If she was upset or anything else, she wouldn't eat and the whole family made their plans around her feelings- did she want to eat or not. They were understandably scared- because if she wouldn't eat, it could be dangerous to her and they didn't want that.

This person was in complete control of a whole family in that, her feelings ruled and they responded to that. She surely didn't want her condition, but the control was a payoff of her behavior. The family was miserable.

Dr Phil said " You are all lost in the woods and are looking towards a disordered person to lead you out"


OB- it seems your relationship is based on your GF feelings. Of course it takes two, if she doesn't want you there is no relationship. So she doesn't want you, you start to walk away and she changes her mind. You don't know where the relationship is going and are looking at her feelings to show the way, but her feelings change.

You want this relationship and this is it- this is a relationship with your GF. Wishing for it to change may mean wishing for her to change. I don't know if that is possible. She is who she is. This IS your relationship with her. Looking to her for direction means doing this her way.

[Oncebitten]

How am I supposed to take control of a relationship when she keeps walking away.  Then comes back and wants to be friends, the wants more again, then wants to be done... .its this awful cycle that i cant seem to break.

It leaves me emotionally wrecked, and just in the worst place possible.  Panic attacks and depressed.

[Notwendy]

You can't control it- you can't control her and you can't change her.

I can't tell you what to do, but from what you are posting, this relationship pattern has emotional affects on you. It is going to take some soul searching. You have choices, but one of them isn't to control or change her behavior. One day she wants you, one day she doesn't, she wants to be friends and then she doesn't.

I think the cycle ends when you decide you love yourself more than you love her, decide what you need in a relationship and honor your feelings instead of looking at hers over yours. Of course this risks losing the relationship and may even require giving it up ( this is not a run message, just putting out the options and consequences).

Loving ourselves isn't a bad thing for relationships. Another Dr. Phil saying: "You don't have to give up yourself to be part of a couple" ( but in some cases, that means two people are not compatible)

Fear of losing the relationship is what underlies the walking on eggshells, the conceding our own needs for the sake of comfort of the other. It helps keep things smooth in the moment but the personal cost is high: depression, anxiety- because you are not taking care of your feelings and boundaries.

Not all situations risk losing the relationship but I think at some level, changing patterns in a relationship carries that risk. To make changes I think we have to look at our fears and acknowledge that every person has the choice to stay or leave in any relationship. If I honor my feelings, then my partner might not like it. However ,If I don't, I won't like me. If I ignore my feelings then I am basically not being authentic with other people.

I think Skip said it : Nothing has advanced.

At some point we all need to decide if we are dealing with a relationship issue that is resolvable or just a failed relationship.

What do you think?