She pushed me too far today.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

dBPDw and I are temporarily separated. It was her idea to move out as a"wake up call" to make me force my entire family to line up and apologize for hurting her feelings. After all, if she cannot make people say, think and do what she wants them to, then I should have to. Note: the events she is hurt about never actually happened the way she remembers. There was no abuse, no intentional slights, just runaway BPD fear of abandonment/rejection rewriting history in her head.

Today started out with text messages at 0555 hours about how it is my responsibility to make people pay for hurting her, my brother is the devil, my mother is trying to steal our children, etc... .I did not respond, as I just have had enough of this.

She called about 10 minutes after she got off work and gave me a 35 minute lecture about how I don't love her because I will not force people to come apologize to her (for things they did not do). I told her I was done listening and had to go.

An hour later the text started again with accusations against my mother and demands that I go tell her off right now.

You know what? That was the breaking point. I replied that I am tired of her constantly riding me because she is hurt over things that allegedly happened 5, 10, even 17 years ago. I am sick and tired of my feelings and my stress not mattering, that I am tired of carrying her emotional baggage for her.

And I told her that she is right, her whining over past hurts is not important to me. Where to send out autistic son for the best chance of a decent education is more important than what my brother said that hurt her feelings in 2000. Paying to put a roof over her head and food on the table for our children is more important than what my mom said while they were playing cards in 2003. I am too involved with trying to solve REAL problems to worry about her crap anymore.

She wanted to come over to see me, but I told her no.

Then, she called to "check on me", offered to come over (again said no), and apologized for putting all her problems on me. I said thank you and ended the call

Let the chips fall where they may. I quit.

[Cole]

dBPDw and I are temporarily separated. It was her idea to move out as a"wake up call" to make me force my entire family to line up and apologize for hurting her feelings. After all, if she cannot make people say, think and do what she wants them to, then I should have to. Note: the events she is hurt about never actually happened the way she remembers. There was no abuse, no intentional slights, just runaway BPD fear of abandonment/rejection rewriting history in her head.

Today started out with text messages at 0555 hours about how it is my responsibility to make people pay for hurting her, my brother is the devil, my mother is trying to steal our children, etc... .I did not respond, as I just have had enough of this.

She called about 10 minutes after she got off work and gave me a 35 minute lecture about how I don't love her because I will not force people to come apologize to her (for things they did not do). I told her I was done listening and had to go.

An hour later the text started again with accusations against my mother and demands that I go tell her off right now.

You know what? That was the breaking point. I replied that I am tired of her constantly riding me because she is hurt over things that allegedly happened 5, 10, even 17 years ago. I am sick and tired of my feelings and my stress not mattering, that I am tired of carrying her emotional baggage for her.

And I told her that she is right, her whining over past hurts is not important to me. Where to send out autistic son for the best chance of a decent education is more important than what my brother said that hurt her feelings in 2000. Paying to put a roof over her head and food on the table for our children is more important than what my mom said while they were playing cards in 2003. I am too involved with trying to solve REAL problems to worry about her crap anymore.

She wanted to come over to see me, but I told her no.

Then, she called to "check on me", offered to come over (again said no), and apologized for putting all her problems on me. I said thank you and ended the call

Let the chips fall where they may. I quit.

[Graceinaction]

I don't have anything positive to offer, I'm sorry. In my opinion you handled it pretty well, just about how I would've.

But I'm curious, why doesn't she just talk with your family members about these grievances? I'm not necessarily saying that would be a better situation for you, but if she's so upset, why has she let it drag on for all these years and not just spoken up herself?

Please don't do this, because I have no idea if it would be good or not, but if you told her to confront them herself would she? Or is it simply a test of who you love more, them or her?

[Perseverant]

I am new at figuring out how to best handle the various situations we find ourselves in with our BPD spouses. However, reading your post leaves me with the impression that you set an effective boundary by drawing a line. You have, in effect, held her accountable for taking care of her "stuff" (emotional baggage) and removed yourself from the role of middle-man to mediate real or imagined conflicts from the past. Her attempts to reach out to you indicate that, perhaps, she realizes that she may have overreacted/pushed you too far/lost control of herself.

Again, I am new at handling a BPD spouse in the most productive and constructive way. It is possible I am wrong in my assessment of your situation. On the other hand, reading your description of your BPDw rings familiar to me and makes me wish I had established the same kind of boundary with my uBPDh some time ago.

Keep us posted. In my view, you needn't cave. However, I would suggest defining in your own mind what you want to accomplish with your distance/silence. Is it breaking up for good? Is it making the point that you won't be pushed in this direction anymore? Something else? Define what that is and, day by day, assess whether you have reached the goal and adjust as appropriate. Remind yourself what the goal is so that you don't get pushed off course. 

[Tired_Dad]

Cole,

Good job setting boundaries for yourself. Self care is incredibly important and sometimes as a caregiver and as a man we often suppress our emotional needs to gain some semblance of peace and stability in the home. I have found that the self suppression impulse can be very harmful to overall satisfaction as a BPD will take advantage of that and be unable to self suppress at times when you need to have the space.

As for the separation I have a cautionary experience for you that you may want to consider since your situation reads very similar to situations that I have been in. If it comes time that you reconcile and she moves back in please do not loose sight of your boundaries. When my spouse returned from her separation we had a brief honeymoon period and then everything started to slip again. I was trapped with the "don't bring up the past, I have made great progress" explanations as she drifted away further from our marriage except that this time she wouldn't leave on her own again because for all of the promises that she made to return to the home the only one that apparently was strong enough to scare her was that if she moves out again we will get a divorce. No questions, no discussions, over. So every promise to keep up with therapy, medication and to keep a job has been for nothing as the years have gone by and now I am facing a divorce with her in the house as opposed to a more advantageous situation of a divorce with her out of the house.

Don't take this as me telling you to get a divorce. Take it as me saying to stay true to your boundaries as the payoff for a few hours of peace in the home end up costing much more.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cole, I think you handled that well by standing your ground.  I find it interesting how she flip-flopped between a lengthy rant/lecture to an apology/offer to visit after you declined to be manipulated.  Keep up the good work!  LJ

[formflier]

Strong move... .I like how you declined to rescue her... .and you declined to be rescued.

both moves left her scratching her head.

Keep it up!

What can you do to be especially kind to yourself?

FF

[Cole]

But I'm curious, why doesn't she just talk with your family members about these grievances? I'm not necessarily saying that would be a better situation for you, but if she's so upset, why has she let it drag on for all these years and not just spoken up herself?

Because then I would not be rescuing her. She sent a text this AM that she was raised by a victim to be a victim. And it is no fun being a victim without a rescuer.

However, reading your post leaves me with the impression that you set an effective boundary by drawing a line. You have, in effect, held her accountable for taking care of her "stuff" (emotional baggage) and removed yourself from the role of middle-man to mediate real or imagined conflicts from the past. Her attempts to reach out to you indicate that, perhaps, she realizes that she may have overreacted/pushed you too far/lost control of herself.

She definitely got the message she pushed too far. She even sent me a texted a few minutes ago apologizing for the constant harassment and acknowledging she has to move past these things herself.

What can you do to be especially kind to yourself?

FF

A new bottle of Crown Royal and a couple cigars are in order.

She stopped by after work only to find the house in clean, working order, the kids fed, and homework done. She got upset and said she was leaving because we don't need her. I reminded her it was her idea to move out and that we are not going to put our lives on hold while she decides what she wants.

[Skip]

I replied that I am tired of her constantly riding me because she is hurt over things that allegedly happened 5, 10, even 17 years ago. I am sick and tired of my feelings and my stress not mattering, that I am tired of carrying her emotional baggage for her.

And I told her that she is right, her whining over past hurts is not important to me. Where to send out autistic son for the best chance of a decent education is more important than what my brother said that hurt her feelings in 2000. Paying to put a roof over her head and food on the table for our children is more important than what my mom said while they were playing cards in 2003. I am too involved with trying to solve REAL problems to worry about her crap anymore.

Sounds like things are escalating and polarizing further.

This is the board for members who are just tolerating the relationship and not motivated (or too defeated) to problem solve - and that's your choice - but once everyone drops their gloves in a hockey game, things only get worse. At some point the fight moves to the point that their are two people trying to win, rather than resolve.

I might rephrase the challenge here... .how can you support your wife as she works through hurt feelings about a family member on your side or the family? It is your family, it is reasonable that she needs your support.

These door is closing, but it may not be closed yet.

I'm not suggesting that you be a doormat or do her bidding... .I'm just reminding you that fights are either headed toward resolution or relationship destruction.

[Turkish]

  She sent a text this AM that she was raised by a victim to be a victim. And it is no fun being a victim without a rescuer

This is a pretty significant admission, and vulnerable.  You definitely got her attention.

Has she ever said anything like this before? It seems like something you can work with.  I'm not saying "fix" (that isn't your job), but rather work with. 

[formflier]

Skips comments ring true with me as well.  I see a lot of my own attitude in you Cole.  (I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing... or good)

I made a decision a while back that I was going to stop "shielding" my wife from the consequences of her actions.  That then continued to morph until now I have very little interest in looking at my own part in whatever the disagreement is about and pretty much have an attitude of "well... if you want to completely capitulate and come over to "my side" (the reasonable side)... .I'll be here for you.  Otherwise I'll ignore you"

Things are pretty chilly in our relationship.

She does her thing... .I do mine

Every once in a while... .she will act out and I pretty much have a "oh... ok attitude... where I don't react... or seem like I care that much"

I have invited her to talk a couple times... but honestly I didn't push very hard.

Anyway... .there is a big picture question here of "which way are we going".  If you are fine letting her "drive"... .where do you think that will go?


FF

[Graceinaction]

Cole,
I am right where you are. Holy crap, I thought I was doing the right thing too. I'm not saying you're doing the wrong thing. I'm just kind of stunned right now.

When my husband says he's leaving, I just go on about whatever needs doing and let him pack. He's left over 100 times in 10 years, so it's a little old. He always comes back, but I just ignore all the drama now.

I have struggled greatly even reading some of the skills on this site. I've been using SET, but it ticks me off. There was a time I would've happily read and done all of these skills. Now it just makes me feel stupid.

I don't want to take over your post, Cole. It just clicked. That Aha moment.

If anyone would like to share if they've been in that mindset and how they turned it around, I'd love to know. But again, I don't want to hijack Cole's post.

But Cole, just know I'm right there with you. I know tough love doesn't work for BPD, but I just learned that last week and I'm stuck.

[babyducks]

I believe that people with BPD often derive their sense of worth, maybe even their sense of self, from how much other people are serving them.

I think that fosters codependency, a situation where one person in a relationship relies on the other for the vast majority of their needs and desires.

Turkish     raised a good point.   This may be something you can work with.   There is an opportunity to do some empathic listening.    Not fixing.    Sometimes the support we can give can be subtle.

And it also may be that you are 'done'.   That you are emotionally spent and exhausted.   That would make sense.   These are difficult situations that use up a bunch of our finite energy.   

Now that the tone of the conversation has changed, and you've had some time to think about things,  what do you think is the next step?

[Cole]

I'm not suggesting that you be a doormat or do her bidding... .I'm just reminding you that fights are either headed toward resolution or relationship destruction.

Skip, I offered to help her talk to my family, exactly you suggested before. She adamantly refused. She called me Wednesday and laid it down as to what she demands:

She will write out a script for me. It will include a public profession of my love for her, an admission that I have not done enough to take care of her feelings, and a full listing of all the the times anyone has ever hurt her feelings. I am to read it to my brother, take notes as to his reactions, and report back to her. Then I am to do the same with my sister-in-law, mother, and maybe a few others, she has not decided yet.

Sorry, but hell no. I told my T about this Thursday and he had to apologize for laughing at the absurdity of the demand. His take, and mine as well, is that she needs to learn how to stand up for herself and take care of her own feelings. As long as I do it for her she will never learn to do it herself.

She has, in typical BPD fashion, changed course. Last night she sent a text apologizing for constantly harassing me and that she forgives my family and needs to learn how to move past things on her own.

I love my wife and would love to work toward resolution. But not under the terms she is demanding.

This is a pretty significant admission, and vulnerable.  You definitely got her attention.

Has she ever said anything like this before? It seems like something you can work with.  I'm not saying "fix" (that isn't your job), but rather work with.  

She has not admitted this before. She said she was writing it down to make sure she talks to her T about it.

Anyway... .there is a big picture question here of "which way are we going".  If you are fine letting her "drive"... .where do you think that will go?

I don't see it as her driving. I had set my boundary as to what I am/am not willing to do. She can work toward fixing the relationship or not. As that most of her things are still here and she said this was temporary, I am guessing she will work toward fixing.

I don't want to take over your post, Cole. It just clicked. That Aha moment.

If anyone would like to share if they've been in that mindset and how they turned it around, I'd love to know. But again, I don't want to hijack Cole's post.

You are not hijacking anything. We all need to share our experiences and learn from each other. I have been through this "leaving" thing 3 times now, though the first two were 24 hours and 16 days, respectively. I cannot imagine going through it 100 times.

And it also may be that you are 'done'.   That you are emotionally spent and exhausted.   That would make sense.   These are difficult situations that use up a bunch of our finite energy.  

Now that the tone of the conversation has changed, and you've had some time to think about things,  what do you think is the next step?

I am, indeed, emotionally spent and exhausted. Next step? I see it as her wanting to move back very soon. Again, most of her things are still here, despite having over a month to move them. She is always making excuses to come over and has asked me to take a vacation day next week to spend the day with her. She desperately wants my time and attention.

But it will be under my terms. She is med compliant and sees her T and Psychiatrist as scheduled, but there will need to be some behavioral rules, as well.    

[Notwendy]

I believe that people with BPD often derive their sense of worth, maybe even their sense of self, from how much other people are serving them.

You just described my mother. She seems most content when the people in her family are behaving like servants to her. And somewhat my H, who would balk at pitching in to help in the home with house and kids. Something about doing this seemed to be a personal affront as if his very self would be diminished. This didn't make sense to me at the time. Later I realized that my tendency to be a rescuer played a part in my other relationships.  

Your wife's text is interesting. I was also raised by a "victim" to be a rescuer. That was my task to work on. One of my goals is to recognize when I am stepping on to the drama triangle.  

Skip made a good point about asking if you are working towards resolution or separation, but this is the conflicted board too and there would be going back and forth on your feelings about what to do. With feelings- we just have to feel them. When I look at your post though, what I see is a refusal to rescue your wife from her feelings. Those are her feelings to deal with.

[babyducks]

For what it's worth I don't think support equals do what she wants.

I would suggest that you can support while still going against the immediately expressed desires.    There is nuance to how that would look.

In a situation that is being framed as black and white.    You do XYZ so therefore you must mean ABC,  it can sometimes be helpful to reframe the conversation in less binary terms.   

Meaning that it helps us.  Not our people with BPD.

Would it be helpful to discuss some of the "rules "  you are thinking about here?  Could we help you work out the what and how?

[babyducks]

Hi NotWendy,
I can see how "serving the needs" could play out in a physical way, like for your Mother.

But in Cole's case I actually meant it in an emotional sense.  A serve my emotional need for attention,  validation,  uniqueness by drawing thsee really firm and bold lines around who is the most loved,  needs to be placed first,   etc etc etc.

[Cole]

Your wife's text is interesting. I was also raised by a "victim" to be a rescuer. That was my task to work on. One of my goals is to recognize when I am stepping on to the drama triangle.  

Skip made a good point about asking if you are working towards resolution or separation, but this is the conflicted board too and there would be going back and forth on your feelings about what to do. With feelings- we just have to feel them. When I look at your post though, what I see is a refusal to rescue your wife from her feelings. Those are her feelings to deal with.

So, your mother raised you to be the rescuer to her victim? Were the persecutors in the triangle really persecutors or was much of it imagined/blown out of perspective? I ask because MIL and W both have done this. My wife has firmly laid claimed the victim position in the triangle and all adjacent lands, and you cannot do so without persecutors. She seems to have come to realize she is doing exactly to me what her mother did to her.

Stepping out of the triangle is one of my goals. It is no fun being a victim if no one will rescue you. And if you decide not to play victim anymore, then you don't need persecutors. My T's expertise is in helping people who have a significant other who suffers from bipolar and personality disorders. He agreed that my refusing to rescue is a good first step toward helping her.

Skip made a good point about asking if you are working towards resolution or separation, but this is the conflicted board too and there would be going back and forth on your feelings about what to do. With feelings- we just have to feel them. When I look at your post though, what I see is a refusal to rescue your wife from her feelings. Those are her feelings to deal with.

I would like to work toward resolution, but not unless things change. Those things are in response to babyducks below.

Would it be helpful to discuss some of the "rules "  you are thinking about here?  Could we help you work out the what and how?

Some of the rules I already discussed with T:

Do not talk about things we have already talked about. We have had long, unending arguments and conversations about the same things over and over. I always thought that some day I would be able to find the right words to make it better, but that will never happen. If she thinks it is still unresolved, then it will have to stay that way. Walk away if she persists.

No more name calling. When she disregulates, the name calling (whoever she is mad at at the moment) is out of control. She can stop or I will just leave.

Do not play into the drama triangle. She has 48 years of playing victim under her belt, and she needs to learn how to stop. I can help by refusing to buy into it.    

[Cole]

Hi NotWendy,
I can see how "serving the needs" could play out in a physical way, like for your Mother.

But in Cole's case I actually meant it in an emotional sense.  A serve my emotional need for attention,  validation,  uniqueness by drawing thsee really firm and bold lines around who is the most loved,  needs to be placed first,   etc etc etc.

That resonates with me! One of the many issues she has is she thinks I love my mother more than her. She even presents situations that never happened as proof. She recently admitted that it isn't that she wants to be number one in my life, she needs to be the ONLY one.

One thing my T asked last night was when did I first see the BPD traits. I said just after our second child was born. He already knew that would be the answer, as that children drew attention away from her.  

[formflier]

Cole,

My comment about "letting her drive" should be restated to ask... .What are you doing to "nudge"... .move... .whatever... .the relationship towards togetherness and healing.

Boundaries are good... excellent actually, but I see those as a bit "passive".  (at least in my analogy)  Your job is a wall... .let her expend energy banging into the wall... or not.

(I get it... "wall maintenance does take some energy"

So... what are you doing... .willing to do... .to "build a bridge" towards her?

I'm wondering if next times she apologizes and wants to come over... .but you are still "done with it", if you can agree to her coming over in a few days, thereby giving both of you guys space... .yet still making a move to come together.

In your story, I "saw" her moving towards you.  I got the vibe you either rejected... .or didn't "answer" her move toward you.

Thoughts?

Think about/read about  Gottmans work on "bids" towards or away from each other.


FF

[teapay]

For whatever reason you want to give it, your feelings don’t matter to your wife.  But looking over the course of your marriage, do your feelings even matter to you—not in an abstract sense, but in a concrete sense?  Most healthy people will reflexively answer “yes” to that question and act constructively and concretely ways to ensure that their desires, feelings and personal well-being are taken into account.  I’m not seeing this in your descriptions of your marriage and you have been posting for a couple of years.  Since the responsibility of your family really rests on your shoulders entirely, at least while your wife is down for the count and flubbing her lips, your needs, feelings, ect…, should be given primacy by you, so you can manage your family toward health and normalcy, both through this crisis and afterward when dealing with someone who is mentally ill.  You are the most responsible party involved and are setting the example.  Seriously taking your feeling into account, and giving them primacy, does not mean not taking other’s feelings into account.  It simply and actually means seriously taking your feeling into account and giving them primary.  The sooner you begin doing this the better of you will be.  You may be making a start.  Suppressing your feelings and perhaps individuality is ultimately untenable, sooner or later it will unravel.  You’ll be more compromised then and less able to address things.

My suggestion would be to stop being a hapless victim and not worry too much about the Karpman Triangle.  While it is good to not be a rescuer, you are still to a certain extent a victim on the triangle by failing to act in your own/family interests and still suffering the continued instability that you permit your wife’s unchecked behavior to bring on your family with this nonsense.  Standing on the sidelines waiting for your mentally ill wife to fix this won’t work.  The Nons solution to problematic BPD is mainly through establishing and enforcing boundaries and consequences.  This will place you in the prosecutors role in the BPD.  And oh, God, do Nons and Codeps hate this and the BPD love to fan its flames.  The rescuer is so much better.  This fear can be a big self imposed barrier to establishing and enforcing boundaries and consequences, but it is an illusion all the same, so it is best to just blow through it and do what is needed to do regarding boundaries and consequences to bring more happiness, health and stability to your personally and your family.

In another post, you mentioned you were willing to take care of your wife, presumably stay married, but only in a secure martial relationship.  I think that is definitely on the right track and guide your actions, but I would also include a relatively normal and health family environment as implied. Do you actually mean this?  I mean, it is easy to say it, but could require a lot of boundaries and consequences, which in turn could blow up the marriage sooner or later.  So, I’d ask again, do you actually mean this.   It is a critical question.

[snowglobe]

Hello @Cole,
I’ve been reading your posts, and I’m very sorry that you put in this catch 22 setuation. It is very frustrating and hurtful to be in a midst of this triangle between your FOO and your spouse, especially when children are involved. From what you describe, there are some unresolved traumas that your wife is hung up on regarding your family. One of the very interesting posts I’ve read https://psychcentral.com/lib/competing-family-loyalties-in-the-holiday-season/ . It will hopefully resonate with you. I’m not trying to justify or excuse your wife’s behaviour, Just a food for throught. From what you are describing, she feels targeted and invalidated by your relatives?. Please correct me if I’m off ... .as an alternative to her demands, can you limit their interaction, and meet with you FOO by yourself. All the while reassuring her that she is the “priority” in your life.

[Cat Familiar]

Cole,
As we've discussed previously, we share some similarities in our relationships: our partners are the highly emotional, acting out type while we're the strong and steady type.

It's been a lifelong pattern for me. I've always thought that I can handle things while others are falling apart and in so doing, I've given my feelings short shrift. What I didn't realize was that those unsupported feelings of mine gradually would build up and I would feel resentment and irritation toward my partner, or my mother. It seemed that there was an unwritten agreement that their feelings were more important than mine.

My husband is similar to your wife in harboring these long term feelings of being dissed by some family member. Since I have no living family, it's his sisters that he thinks somehow consider him "less than" for myriad reasons. I've listened to his litany of complaints over and over and nothing ever resolves. I even suggested he seek therapy a couple of times to try and get to the bottom of the problem. Surprisingly he did--albeit for a very short time. Again, nothing changed.

He also plays the game of "Who do you love more?" I've been accused of loving my horses, my cats, my friends--basically everyone more than him. I used to try and refute his accusations, but now I just ignore them, since talking about it only made things worse. And to be honest, when he's like that, yes, I absolutely love others more than him. They don't give me grief.

But, to get back to my rambling point, I think this is part of his identity. That he seems to alternate between thinking he's the most noble person on the planet and then thinking he's worthless. So he externalizes it and needs to have a persecutor--someone who will take the place of his deceased narcissistic father and tell him (maybe not in words, perhaps just looking at him in a way that he thinks is judgmental) that he's crap.

Frankly, I've gotten to the point where I'm not interested in playing along with his drama. I've seen it too many times before and no matter how I tried to come up with creative ways to address his concerns, it all went downhill and then I was roped into it too.

I suspect that your wife is addicted to the "poor me" game and you've gotten to the point where you no longer want to play.

Cat   

[babyducks]

Hi Cole,

Do not talk about things we have already talked about. We have had long, unending arguments and conversations about the same things over and over. I always thought that some day I would be able to find the right words to make it better, but that will never happen. If she thinks it is still unresolved, then it will have to stay that way. Walk away if she persists.

Long unending arguments about the same things over and over is pretty much the definition of a circular argument.     and you are correct one of the 'rules' for things not do in a circular argument is to repeat something you've already said, or answer a question you've already answered.    some of the other don't's are don't slam doors or storm out.  don't try to get the last word.   don't try to manipulate or maneuver another person's emotions or opinions.     Do switch from stating facts to describing feelings.   I feel hurt by that.    I feel tired.    I feel frustrated.  Do leave the conversation calmly, how you leave the conversation matters a lot.   In a normal healthy adult relationship there will be points where opinions differ.     "you and I see this very differently, and I don't have any more to add"

No more name calling. When she disregulates, the name calling (whoever she is mad at at the moment) is out of control. She can stop or I will just leave.

when the dysregulation is at it's height,   allowing for a cooling off period for the pwBPD to self soothe is important.    have you communicated this boundary to her in a moment of calm?

Do not play into the drama triangle. She has 48 years of playing victim under her belt, and she needs to learn how to stop. I can help by refusing to buy into it.    

48 years is a long time.    while any learned behavior can be un-learned, stopping this behavior will not be quick.   you can help by moving to the center of the drama triangle.    again it matters how you do this.    since you said

I would like to work toward resolution, but not unless things change

  I am guessing that you are willing to find some common ground.    since you know that one of her emotional needs is to feel like she is the number one, the only one, is there a way to change your reaction when this need to be the Only One pops up?    I know it's very hard to not take it personally but,  this isn't about what you did or didn't say to any member of your family.   Or what any member of your family did or didn't say.   It about her need to merge into an ameba like oneness with you so she feels safe and secure.  It's not your job to fix that feeling but you can recognize it when it comes up.   

what do you think?    how's it going today?

'ducks

[Notwendy]

Hi Ducks- it was both with my mother, serving her emotionally and with physical actions.

With my H, it is also with physical actions. I think this comes from his FOO background where emotions were not discussed or expressed directly and people showed their affection by doing things for them. When it comes to love languages, this feels odd to me since I had to do things for my mother, not the other way around, so I became very independent at a young age- could cook, sew, do things that I needed to do for myself early on. I learned not to ask or expect people to do things for me that I could do myself.


Cole, to answer your question, there were no real persecutors. Victim was a perspective my mother took no matter what. She could make ordinary things into persecutors. One example is when I threw up as a toddler. I probably had a stomach ache. Yet my mother tells a story about how I did this on purpose to her. To me, it looked like we were all WOE trying to make her happy but she still felt like a victim. It could be seemingly innocent things. Once I offered some friendly advice about some work she was having done in her house and she interpreted this as me forcing her to do something. I offered to help out with managing my parents' finances when they were elderly and she screamed that I was forcing her to go to the bank. I backed away as I realized that they didn't see this as helping. It's twisted thinking.

I have encountered a similar situation with my H, who is not like my mother in many ways, but I realize we choose partners who match us. So he likes for me to do things for him- and he seems to feel good about these things in a way I don't relate to. When I was pregnant with our kids and had nausea and less interested in sex, he took this as an act against him and painted me black for several years. I had no clue this was what he thought. Now we are middle aged, and one if us has difficulty sleeping ( snoring, insomnia) I will move to the extra bedroom as an act of consideration ( not to keep him up) or self care ( trying to sleep). He says things like " You just don't want to sleep with me".  If I didn't cook dinner, to him, it meant I didn't love him when to me, I may have had an activity outside the house and not had time to cook. We actually got some help with a MC for this. I think my H had just enough traits to match my own co-dependency and the patterns I grew up with so they felt "normal" to me.

It's a form of twisted thinking- to make up motives for ordinary daily actions, or the temporary ups and downs of a relationship.

[Cole]

Thanks all for your input.

I guess that I am at a point where I just don't care what happens one way or the other right now. Sad, but true.
 

[Notwendy]

Cole- I think it is OK- you feel what you feel. Just as none of us can say to someone else- leave, it is over, we also can not say " stay and work it out". This is your choice to make.

There is a benefit to working on your own relationship skills and using the tools here for communicating with your partner with BPD either way. If you stay- they help. If you split- any divorce requires communication skills, so they would help with that decision as well.

Keep the focus on your feelings and what you wish to do. Gaining relationship skills helps all of this.

[Cole]

Cole- I think it is OK- you feel what you feel. Just as none of us can say to someone else- leave, it is over, we also can not say " stay and work it out". This is your choice to make.

There is a benefit to working on your own relationship skills and using the tools here for communicating with your partner with BPD either way. If you stay- they help. If you split- any divorce requires communication skills, so they would help with that decision as well.

Keep the focus on your feelings and what you wish to do. Gaining relationship skills helps all of this.

Thank you for the support, notwendy, and everyone else who has contributed.  

The push-pull BS has been ridiculous the last 24 hours. She loves me and wants to be married to me, but on her terms. Those terms are so over the top as to be laughable. She added in another condition yesterday, which is for me to go to everyone we know and profess my love for her. Again, she says will give me a script to follow and I am to report back to her when done. Um,... .no.   

It sounds silly. We both want to be together. I have attempted to meet her half way on her demands, but to no avail. She demands 100% compliance with what she wants. She still has most of her things here. She cannot afford to live on her own and has not even looked for a second job to support herself. I guess she thinks I will buckle.

I told her this morning I am sick of this situation and will have my attorney go ahead and start on a separation agreement so we can stop living in limbo. She begged me to stop talking like that.  

[Cole]

At some point the fight moves to the point that their are two people trying to win, rather than resolve.

These door is closing, but it may not be closed yet.

I'm not suggesting that you be a doormat or do her bidding... .I'm just reminding you that fights are either headed toward resolution or relationship destruction.

So... what are you doing... .willing to do... .to "build a bridge" towards her?

I'm wondering if next times she apologizes and wants to come over... .but you are still "done with it", if you can agree to her coming over in a few days, thereby giving both of you guys space... .yet still making a move to come together.

In your story, I "saw" her moving towards you.  I got the vibe you either rejected... .or didn't "answer" her move toward you.

Skip and FF,

You both make good points about moving in the right direction vs the wrong direction.

She has asked me several times recently to spend time with her. She asked me to go to Church with her, go to a reverse raffle, and to take a vacation day so we can spend the day together. She sends me texts at least once a day saying she hates this and misses me.

One side says, yes, do it. It would be healing and we desperately miss each other.

One side says no, don't. That this is just allowing her to have it both ways, spending time with me and living on her own. There is no incentive here for her to move back and start taking care of her family. The kids miss her.
 
Very torn on this.

[Cole]

since you know that one of her emotional needs is to feel like she is the number one, the only one, is there a way to change your reaction when this need to be the Only One pops up?    I know it's very hard to not take it personally but,  this isn't about what you did or didn't say to any member of your family.   Or what any member of your family did or didn't say.   It about her need to merge into an ameba like oneness with you so she feels safe and secure.  It's not your job to fix that feeling but you can recognize it when it comes up.  

I recognize she needs to feel that way. It is very difficult to predict what she will feel threatened by next. So far it has been the property, my mother, a cat (yes, catfamiliar, I had that one, too!), and even a pick-up truck. She will not voice her feelings until months or years later then expect me to somehow undo the past. Like many pwBPD, for her the past is the present.

[babyducks]

One side says, yes, do it. It would be healing and we desperately miss each other.

One side says no, don't. That this is just allowing her to have it both ways, spending time with me and living on her own. There is no incentive here for her to move back and start taking care of her family. The kids miss her.
 
Very torn on this.

Hi Cole,... .

What you are saying makes a lot of sense.   It makes me think of all the "danged if I do,  danged if I don't", I experienced in my relationship.   Boy if I had a nickel for all the times I thought there is literally no good solution here.   My Ex had a great natural talent for a double bind. I would almost say she was a master at it.   To create self fulfilling prophecies.   Of the "no one loves me because they won't do what I ask of them"  kind.   The fact that what she was asking of me was unreasonable never factored into the discussion.

I really liked what NotWendy said.   Leaving or Staying or Being Pushed to Leave is really your choice to make.    and to make that choice, the best approach is to focus on your feelings.   I found that in the often chaotic atmosphere of my partners over the top emotions and feelings I would loose sight of my own.    Is there something you do to help identify your feelings?   journal?  fish? meditate?   

I told her this morning I am sick of this situation and will have my attorney go ahead and start on a separation agreement so we can stop living in limbo. She begged me to stop talking like that. 

Are you planning on making contact with your attorney on Monday?     Or was this a heat of the moment reaction?

'