Genuine or being manipulated? I can't tell anymore...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've been with my husband for 23 years.  In the beginning he was nice, kind, considerate, compassionate, funny... .  loving.  However, I've always walked on eggshells.  Sixteen years ago we moved away from all family and I was isolated... .  verbal and emotional abuse started.  Four years ago we moved back to family and his mood continued to deteriorate.

Last January I begged him to go to marriage counseling with me.  The day of the appointment I showed up by myself, and continued going for 5 months.  I felt like I had worked through the things I could and really was only taught how to "cope" with his behavior. 

Over the summer I really began to reflect and understand the importance of making myself happy, first and foremost.  Then I began to realize that not only could I NOT do this for another 20 years, or 5 years... .  I couldn't do it another week. 

A week ago Sunday I asked for a divorce.  And I told him that due to his ugly and hurtful words, I no longer trusted him with my heart... .  that I would always love him and care about him, but wasn't "in love" with him.   Immediately he was angry, but that fizzled out quickly. 

The next morning he began telling me all the things he was going to do to "fix things".  I told him they were just words and didn't mean anything... .  words need to be followed by action, and lots of it.  He asked me not to move out, I told him I would stay 3 days and then I was moving for me.

The following day it was like he had awoken from amnesia... .   he was just like the "old" him... .  caring, nice, loving. 

I have been out of my house for 5 days and he tells me how much he loves me, wants to be with me... .  willing to do anything to make this work.  He is taking action on some of his words and has started seeing a counselor, go a full check up, etc. 

Somehow I feel like I'm being manipulated.  How is it possible that this ugly version of him was here for so long, despite my pleading to get help, and yet he was able to literally flip a switch and become that nice person again. 

I have told him that I am not willing to reconcile now, if ever, or if there ever would be a chance it would not be for a long while.  (Again not "in love".  I feel like I need to put more boundaries in place- number of times he can contact me, number of times we see each other in a week (this is supposed to be a break)... .  but I'm not sure how to go about this. 

Anyone else gone through this?  Thoughts?

Thanks for the help!

[Time4achange]

I've been with my husband for 23 years.  In the beginning he was nice, kind, considerate, compassionate, funny... .  loving.  However, I've always walked on eggshells.  Sixteen years ago we moved away from all family and I was isolated... .  verbal and emotional abuse started.  Four years ago we moved back to family and his mood continued to deteriorate.

Last January I begged him to go to marriage counseling with me.  The day of the appointment I showed up by myself, and continued going for 5 months.  I felt like I had worked through the things I could and really was only taught how to "cope" with his behavior. 

Over the summer I really began to reflect and understand the importance of making myself happy, first and foremost.  Then I began to realize that not only could I NOT do this for another 20 years, or 5 years... .  I couldn't do it another week. 

A week ago Sunday I asked for a divorce.  And I told him that due to his ugly and hurtful words, I no longer trusted him with my heart... .  that I would always love him and care about him, but wasn't "in love" with him.   Immediately he was angry, but that fizzled out quickly. 

The next morning he began telling me all the things he was going to do to "fix things".  I told him they were just words and didn't mean anything... .  words need to be followed by action, and lots of it.  He asked me not to move out, I told him I would stay 3 days and then I was moving for me.

The following day it was like he had awoken from amnesia... .   he was just like the "old" him... .  caring, nice, loving. 

I have been out of my house for 5 days and he tells me how much he loves me, wants to be with me... .  willing to do anything to make this work.  He is taking action on some of his words and has started seeing a counselor, go a full check up, etc. 

Somehow I feel like I'm being manipulated.  How is it possible that this ugly version of him was here for so long, despite my pleading to get help, and yet he was able to literally flip a switch and become that nice person again. 

I have told him that I am not willing to reconcile now, if ever, or if there ever would be a chance it would not be for a long while.  (Again not "in love".  I feel like I need to put more boundaries in place- number of times he can contact me, number of times we see each other in a week (this is supposed to be a break)... .  but I'm not sure how to go about this. 

Anyone else gone through this?  Thoughts?

Thanks for the help!

[maddy2013]

wow, he was great for seven yrs? and abusive when you moved away? he needs to find out why this happened, because you deserve to know if it will happen again. and if you left, he is not entitled to any certain number of times a week, he should wait till you invite him, if that is what he wants to do. you have made a very big, very courageous move by leaving. he needs to respect that and show that he can be considerate of your feelings. if he doesn't do that now he sure won't if you go back. and it's not like you are deeply in love, and you sure don't want to string him along. best of luck!

[vortex of confusion]

Does it matter if he is being genuine?

After 4 kids and almost 20 years, I kicked my husband out of the house. There were a lot of times over the years that he sounded genuine. I would believe him and things would be good for a while and then things would backslide.

I would recommend that you don't look at things from the love angle. I still very much love and care for my ex. I am not in love with him but he is still very much a part of me. Having said that, I had to make a bold move and kick him out. I had to stop worrying about whether or not he was genuine. In those moments when he would fix things and be wonderful, he sounded so unbelievably sincere. I so badly wanted him to be sincere. I so badly wanted to save my marriage and my family and blah, blah, blah. It was NOT based in reality.

Now, I don't care if he is being sincere. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. What I do know is our history and our patterns. The two of you have 23 years together. How realistic is it to believe that you moving out has magically changed things? How many days has it been? 5? Five days is not nearly enough to make heads or tales out of anything. Can he do it for 5 weeks or 5 months or 5 years?

The ex would get so irritated with me because I got to a point where he would start in with what he was going to do. He would do it for a little while and I wouldn't relent. He would then use that as evidence that I wouldn't give him a chance. All you can do is decide what you want to do and find a way to stick with it without regard to what he is or isn't doing. I was tired of getting burned. I was tired of believing that he was sincere only to be disappointed when he went back to his old ways. I would point out the things that he had done and he would say, "but I am not doing those things now."

My response would be: And? Does that magically erase the hurt and pain? How long has it been? A couple of days?

I got to a point where I flat out told him, "How long is it going to last this time? How many times have you told me that you weren't doing something only to go and do it 20 minutes later?" He would try to talk me in circles and point out technicalities like, "I wasn't doing it when you asked about it."

It was a mess and I finally had to quit worrying about whether or not he was being sincere. I had to quit worrying about all of it and focus on how to proceed under the assumption that he was going to continue to be him. I had to radically accept that he wasn't going to change and then make my decisions accordingly. It is very, very difficult to stand firm when all I have really wanted to do at times is run back to him and try to go back to the days when things were good. I know that is a delusional fairy tail and it isn't going to happen.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I think you're right in that he's probably manipulating you. He's probably having fear of abandonment issues. So he'll do "anything" to get you to stay. It sounds like he also has magical thinking... ."if I do this and this, everything will be fine". There is no quick fix for this. If he convinces you to stay then I think when everything is "fine" again, he'll probably resort back to the not-good behavior. When he doesn't get the response he expects because it's not magically working, he'll probably stop working on it and blame you. Much like my ex. Trust your gut instinct. 5 days isn't nearly enough time to magically fix it.

I agree with vortex 100% too.

Also my ex really became extremely controlling and manipulative when we moved hundreds of miles away from our family and friends. We had been married about five years by that time. I became isolated. I suspect he became extremely dependent on me because of his fear of abandonment. So in his mind he had to keep a tight leash on me via control in order to keep me from leaving him. It's about insecurity and control.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Time4, I admire your commitment to your own happiness, which is what it's all about, in my view.  Just curious, what makes you think that your H has BPD?  Give yourself credit for moving out of the house.  I'm sure that took a lot of courage.  Why not let your H know that you want to take a break for a certain period of time, say 30 days, during which period you don't want to hear from him.  That might afford both of you the space to re-evaluate where things are headed.  Plus, you could add a condition, like you expect him to see a T during that time.  What works best for you?

LuckyJim

[Time4achange]

Thank you all for the *great* insight.  I agree a few days don't magically make all the pain and hurt disappear. 

The marriage counselor that I began seeing in January (by myself) suggested I look into BPD after hearing the things I said to him. Also in conversations w my sil, we both believe H and my mil  both are BPD. 

The continued lack of boundaries (32 texts yesterday alone), and the resulting anxiety is not good for me, so I definitely think I am going to have to lay out some specific guidelines regarding contact. 

I think my resolve and his inability to persuade me are starting to wear on him.  While he has started taking "action", I just don't see it being a long term thing. 

Again, thank you all for weighing in! 

[formflier]

I would ask that you set aside any judgment about manipulative or not.  Now is the time to watch his actions.  You should also compare his actions to his words.

It is unrealistic to believe his recovery will be a straight line up... .there will be backsliding.  The key is to get a trend over months... .and ignore the extreme good/extreme bad of a few days... .or a week.

I think you are wise to move out and give him space to show you who he is.  Just as important... .spend time figuring out who you are and show him that.

This will take time... .there is no magic.

FF