How would you respond, what would you think

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Need some insight here.
Husband today said that he feels disrespected because I do not dress up when I go out with him... .ie, food shopping, for coffee etc. But that I get dressed up when I go out for an evening with friends/ colleagues.

This is true. When I go out with freinds it is normally for a meal so I wear trousers and a nice top.
When I go out with hubby to get food shopping or for coffee during the day I wear casual clothes. For me this is yoga pants and a top with trainers.

I explained the difference to him. Then he proceeded to tell me that I am a lazy slob and that I am an embarrassment to him for wearing what I do.
I said well this is me and what I wear... .
I did used to wear skirts... .knee length ones but I put on a lot of weight due to comfort eating because of our issues.
I have lost over half of that weight now so could wear my skirts again but o be honest I feel comfortable in my casual clothes... .I’ve never been one for designer stuff or getting really dressed up. Although if we went out for an evening meal then sure I would maybe even wear a dress.

I also explained this to him , it turned into a huge argument and he has said he will not be leaving the house with me looking as I do and has gone to his room and that I am not to try and communicate with him until tomorrow.
Is this reasonable? Any of it? Exspecially the clothes bit. I’m just far comfier in my house clothes for run of the mill stuff. Don’t feel I should be told what he has said. Is this trying to be controlling? He is trying to say my way of looking at it is all wrong etc.

[Jester20]

Need some insight here.
Husband today said that he feels disrespected because I do not dress up when I go out with him... .ie, food shopping, for coffee etc. But that I get dressed up when I go out for an evening with friends/ colleagues.

This is true. When I go out with freinds it is normally for a meal so I wear trousers and a nice top.
When I go out with hubby to get food shopping or for coffee during the day I wear casual clothes. For me this is yoga pants and a top with trainers.

I explained the difference to him. Then he proceeded to tell me that I am a lazy slob and that I am an embarrassment to him for wearing what I do.
I said well this is me and what I wear... .
I did used to wear skirts... .knee length ones but I put on a lot of weight due to comfort eating because of our issues.
I have lost over half of that weight now so could wear my skirts again but o be honest I feel comfortable in my casual clothes... .I’ve never been one for designer stuff or getting really dressed up. Although if we went out for an evening meal then sure I would maybe even wear a dress.

I also explained this to him , it turned into a huge argument and he has said he will not be leaving the house with me looking as I do and has gone to his room and that I am not to try and communicate with him until tomorrow.
Is this reasonable? Any of it? Exspecially the clothes bit. I’m just far comfier in my house clothes for run of the mill stuff. Don’t feel I should be told what he has said. Is this trying to be controlling? He is trying to say my way of looking at it is all wrong etc.

[Tattered Heart]

I've had a similar conversation with my H. I dress nice for going out with friends, work, and if we are going somewhere public. But if my H and I are just running to the store or to grab a fast meal, I don't get dressed up. I'm not sure your H's request is a BPD issue although his response may have been a BPD response. My sis in law's H (who doesn't have BPD) wants her to dress nice for him too. She likes to stay in comfy clothes, doesn't wear make up or fix her hair. (I also think she looks frumpy and it drives me crazy too, but she can wear what she wants). He gets frustrated that she doesn't look nice for him.

I think things went wrong when you began to JADE. Don't JADE . To him it sounds like you are taking everything he just said, ignoring it, and making excuses for yourself which makes him believe his accusations are more valid.

Perhaps a better way to approach this is to validate and ask questions. Validate what it would feel like to think that others are more important than him. Ask him things like, What does dressing nice look like to him? Why is it important to him that you wear different clothes when you go out together? Why does he get embarassed when you are dressed in comfortable clothes?

And as a wife, does what he is saying hold water? He is saying he likes to see you look nice for him. Every single "how to drive your H crazy for you" website out there mentions continuing to look nice for your spouse. Are there ways you can accommodate that just to show him kindness, not because he is trying to control you. Can you rethink maybe throwing in an errand that you wouldn't mind getting put together for? I know for myself sometimes I forget the art of compromise just because my H has BPD. I worry about giving up myself so sometimes I dig in my heels harder than I would if he didn't have BPD.

[love4meNOTu]

Hi Jester -

I try not to respond to threads that trigger me, or at least wait a few minutes before I respond to put my emotional response behind me. So I waited a few minutes before typing this up.

IMO it is disrespectful to call your spouse a lazy slob and to refuse to go anywhere with her.

Wearing what you want to wear, and to enjoy being comfortable in what you are wearing is part of you being you.

My exhwBPD would "pick" on me in a similar fashion to what you described when he didn't want to do something and was trying to manipulate the situation. The "pushing away" that is common with borderline personality disorder. The "pull" would come later, generally an emotional plea about how sorry he was and how since he was cheated on by blah blah and blah blah he was so afraid that I would do the same or that blah blah women are all alike... blah blah.

Sorry, I digress. But maybe it would help to take a step back from the situation, don't accept the "sting" of the accusations and look at the motivations behind this disagreement.

1. Is it possible he was feeling insecure (did something happen recently at work or in his personal life where he felt disrespected and is taking it out on you, his nearest and dearest)?

2. Have you had a recent significant gain in self esteem, where he might have felt threatened that you would leave? (i.e. your weight loss)

Just some things to think about, and ps... we all wear yoga pants and sneakers on the weekends, it's comfy! And it's not about you my dear.

I wouldn't respond at all frankly.

L

[Jester20]

I've had a similar conversation with my H. I dress nice for going out with friends, work, and if we are going somewhere public. But if my H and I are just running to the store or to grab a fast meal, I don't get dressed up. I'm not sure your H's request is a BPD issue although his response may have been a BPD response. My sis in law's H (who doesn't have BPD) wants her to dress nice for him too. She likes to stay in comfy clothes, doesn't wear make up or fix her hair. (I also think she looks frumpy and it drives me crazy too, but she can wear what she wants). He gets frustrated that she doesn't look nice for him.

I think things went wrong when you began to JADE.

Don't JADE . To him it sounds like you are taking everything he just said, ignoring it, and making excuses for yourself which makes him believe his accusations are more valid.

Perhaps a better way to approach this is to validate and ask questions. Validate what it would feel like to think that others are more important than him. Ask him things like, What does dressing nice look like to him? Why is it important to him that you wear different clothes when you go out together? Why does he get embarassed when you are dressed in comfortable clothes?

And as a wife, does what he is saying hold water? He is saying he likes to see you look nice for him. Every single "how to drive your H crazy for you" website out there mentions continuing to look nice for your spouse. Are there ways you can accommodate that just to show him kindness, not because he is trying to control you. Can you rethink maybe throwing in an errand that you wouldn't mind getting put together for? I know for myself sometimes I forget the art of compromise just because my H has BPD. I worry about giving up myself so sometimes I dig in my heels harder than I would if he didn't have BPD.

Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Maybe he wasn’t trying to control me. The truth is our marriage is so damaged. We don’t sleep in the same bedroom (3 years) we don’t wear our wedding rings (3years). I don’t want to lloom nice for him... .I want to feel comfortable. I think he also has some play in this when I said to him I don’t like wearing skirts... .I put on weight. And he responded but you used to wear skirts all the time and you lost all that weight so you could wear them again. He was partly responsible for that years ago by telling me how unattractive I was etc. But now he doesn’t want to know about that or how that effected me.

I think there is a part of it that I also forget about the art of compromise because of his BPD. Like you say.

[Jester20]

Hi Jester -

I try not to respond to threads that trigger me, or at least wait a few minutes before I respond to put my emotional response behind me. So I waited a few minutes before typing this up.

IMO it is disrespectful to call your spouse a lazy slob and to refuse to go anywhere with her.

Wearing what you want to wear, and to enjoy being comfortable in what you are wearing is part of you being you.

My exhwBPD would "pick" on me in a similar fashion to what you described when he didn't want to do something and was trying to manipulate the situation. The "pushing away" that is common with borderline personality disorder. The "pull" would come later, generally an emotional plea about how sorry he was and how since he was cheated on by blah blah and blah blah he was so afraid that I would do the same or that blah blah women are all alike... blah blah.

Sorry, I digress. But maybe it would help to take a step back from the situation, don't accept the "sting" of the accusations and look at the motivations behind this disagreement.

1. Is it possible he was feeling insecure (did something happen recently at work or in his personal life where he felt disrespected and is taking it out on you, his nearest and dearest)?

2. Have you had a recent significant gain in self esteem, where he might have felt threatened that you would leave? (i.e. your weight loss)

Just some things to think about, and ps... we all wear yoga pants and sneakers on the weekends, it's comfy! And it's not about you my dear.

I wouldn't respond at all frankly.

L

Thank you for your response.
Nothing has happened as far as I can see. He hasn’t worked since we married (6years).
I do have a new confidence gain which has taken me 3 years to achieve. The weight loss which has taken 1 year and some control over the helpless feeling of his disorder. He nearly broke me... .I mean I never knew what it meant when someone said to me once ‘ her father was a broken man’ I never knew this feeling, this ability to describe what it meant to be broken... .until my husband with BPD. I came back from a depression, I started putting my needs first, I set some boundaries and over 3 years I have done it... .he has improved as he is in group therapy and has been for 1 year. But the last 2 weeks have been rough... .I was wondering whether it was therapy. They just ramped it up and he is there 5 hours all in 1 day.

[Lostinanother]

I think that your husband is actually trying to fix your marriage but maybe he isn’t going about in a sensitive enough way... .
Sometimes a husband just wants his wife to act like the woman he first started dating and he wants to get that spark back.
We men are insecure at heart and take it personally if our SO doesn’t dress up for us because we think that means that they don’t want to impress us anymore which means they aren’t attracted to us anymore... .
What he has asked for isn’t too much at all, I think. But he has done it completely wrong.
Dress up all nice for him and it will boost his confidence and also his feelings for you... .

Sorry this is just a mans point of view
I hope it’s helpful

[Jester20]

He is at group therapy today and will discuss it with them. I think someone mentioned that when he mentioned it he wasn’t dis regulating, I agree with this... .I think his request annoyed me because of how resentful and angry I feel for the last 6 years. My response triggered him. Anyway we will see what he says when he gets home from group.

[Enabler]

I second lostinanother, he most likely feels insignificant and wants connection with you. He's just got a maladapted way of saying it. He likely see's you make an effort for others and wants that same effort for himself because for him, he feels he should be the most important person in your life... .or at least he would like to be and aspires to be. I would guess that's his way of saying "I think you're hot"... .and he loves you with the weight or without it.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

My personal opinion on this is that you are who you are. That includes how YOU want to dress. If he can't accept that, it's not your problem. I could be completely off base here but it does remind me of an NPD like my ex. That he may see you as an extension of himself, not as a separate person from him. He may have this image to maintain and you "ruin" it because it makes him look bad to others.

It also does seem like something an insecure person would say, IMO. If he were secure in himself and your marriage, I doubt this would be an issue.

Then again all of this may not be the real issue here. Like what lostinanother said, he may be trying to get that spark back by wanting you to be who you were when you were first together, including how you dress. My ex did this somewhat. What he didn't realize was that I wasn't the same person I was back then. Yeah I used to dress up in college and I wore dresses and skirts.  The last dress I wore was probably my wedding dress some twenty years ago. Now I dress for MY comfort which is usually jeans and sometimes yoga pants. My attitude now is that if someone doesn't like it, too bad. I'm dressing for ME, not THEM. I'm happy that my BF doesn't care what I wear as long as I'm comfortable. Once in a while I will wear something I know he likes to see me in because I want to do it, not because he wants me to. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Do what YOU want to do. If you dressed up because HE wanted you to, how would that make YOU feel? Your feelings are just as important as anyone else's.

If you want to dress up for him, that's great. If you would rather not, I think that's great too. I also think your feelings are very valid. Feelings are always valid. You feel how you feel. No one can say how you feel is right or wrong.

It's also up to you on how you want to approach this. The more I think about it, the more I think there is an underlying issue here. He also may not realize that what he said to you is hurtful. It's not an excuse but it may explain some of it. My ex said a lot of things to me that were hurtful and seem really confused when I told him that. I went so far as to say the exact same words back to him and he would ask me "why are you being so mean to me?" Talk about confusing! I told him that I just told him what he said to me verbatim. It's the weirdest thing! He really seemed to not get it.  Yeah, JADE does not help.

I can't / shouldn't write what I would personally say in this situation. It wouldn't be nice and it's probably not the right thing to say and probably not helpful. Having said that, the nicest sincerest thing I can think of to say or ask in this situation is "why does this bother you so much? Why does how I look disrespect you?" I'd basically keep asking "why" to see if we could figure out why this is such a big issue for him and maybe come up with a solution or even better - he would hopefully realize there's a bigger/deeper issue here for him to work on. That this isn't about YOU - it's about HIM.

[Jester20]

My personal opinion on this is that you are who you are. That includes how YOU want to dress. If he can't accept that, it's not your problem. I could be completely off base here but it does remind me of an NPD like my ex. That he may see you as an extension of himself, not as a separate person from him. He may have this image to maintain and you "ruin" it because it makes him look bad to others.

It also does seem like something an insecure person would say, IMO. If he were secure in himself and your marriage, I doubt this would be an issue.

Then again all of this may not be the real issue here. Like what lostinanother said, he may be trying to get that spark back by wanting you to be who you were when you were first together, including how you dress. My ex did this somewhat. What he didn't realize was that I wasn't the same person I was back then. Yeah I used to dress up in college and I wore dresses and skirts.  The last dress I wore was probably my wedding dress some twenty years ago. Now I dress for MY comfort which is usually jeans and sometimes yoga pants. My attitude now is that if someone doesn't like it, too bad. I'm dressing for ME, not THEM. I'm happy that my BF doesn't care what I wear as long as I'm comfortable. Once in a while I will wear something I know he likes to see me in because I want to do it, not because he wants me to. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Do what YOU want to do. If you dressed up because HE wanted you to, how would that make YOU feel? Your feelings are just as important as anyone else's.

If you want to dress up for him, that's great. If you would rather not, I think that's great too. I also think your feelings are very valid. Feelings are always valid. You feel how you feel. No one can say how you feel is right or wrong.

It's also up to you on how you want to approach this. The more I think about it, the more I think there is an underlying issue here. He also may not realize that what he said to you is hurtful. It's not an excuse but it may explain some of it. My ex said a lot of things to me that were hurtful and seem really confused when I told him that. I went so far as to say the exact same words back to him and he would ask me "why are you being so mean to me?" Talk about confusing! I told him that I just told him what he said to me verbatim. It's the weirdest thing! He really seemed to not get it.  Yeah, JADE does not help.

I can't / shouldn't write what I would personally say in this situation. It wouldn't be nice and it's probably not the right thing to say and probably not helpful. Having said that, the nicest sincerest thing I can think of to say or ask in this situation is "why does this bother you so much? Why does how I look disrespect you?" I'd basically keep asking "why" to see if we could figure out why this is such a big issue for him and maybe come up with a solution or even better - he would hopefully realize there's a bigger/deeper issue here for him to work on. That this isn't about YOU - it's about HIM.

I think your right.
I think it is to do with him not feeling equal. He hasn’t worked since we married and he does say stuff like... .do you think it is ok to be disrespectful to me because I’m not your equal... .I bring nothing in etc. Should I expect that you talk to me in a certain way or refuse to make eye contact with me in conversation because I haven’t got a job yet and your angry so it’s ok for you to treat me in a certain way. Do I have to wait until I have got a job for us to start working on our marriage.
I guess he is right... .we are like room mates who watch films and eat together and go for walks with our dog... .apart from that there is nothing.
He said... .we have no physical relationship whatsoever. He is right. We also have no emotional relationship because I cannot rely on him because of his disorder.

And I know he has been tryin* really hard... .therapy for 1 year with another 2 in front of him... .but really... .when you have been through ... .well you know. It’s hard bloody work getting back to that point. It takes a long time.
I told him the other day... .our marriage is by no means out of danger yet. I said even when you find a job... .I still do not know if we will survive.
I think he wants to move forward and try to get back to where we were... .it’s probably me... .I just can’t. I’m not ready to give my whole heart back again. There is a lot more work that needs to be done before I can even consider that. This is where I am at... .so he might have meant to be doing a good thing asking me to dress up a bit or like I used to ... .I get that. But he does not deserve that and it’s not ok to ask.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

he wants to move forward and try to get back to where we were... .it’s probably me... .I just can’t.

It sounds to me that he actually wants to move backwards, not forwards, to where you were. Past tense. Were. People change over time. I don't agree with trying to force anyone to be someone they are not. It seems magical/wishful thinking, IMO, as well which isn't healthy for anyone. It's also hard on you because he's trying to force you back when you're trying to move forward. It sucks. I get it.

I'm glad he's in therapy. I really do hope it helps both of you. Do you have a therapist as well? If not, I suggest finding a good one to help you through this. It's a frustrating place to be.

His not having a job could explain a lot of his behavior too, IMO. It seems to me like he probably feels ashamed, frustrated, angry, insecure, or something like that because he doesn't have a job. He then seems to be projecting his feelings onto you in the form of "disrespecting" him instead of dealing with his feelings. During my twenty year marriage, I was always the breadwinner. I always had a job and made more money than him. Sometimes I wonder if this contributed to some of my ex's abuse. I'm guessing he may have felt inadequate as a man because he wasn't the breadwinner for our family. He grew up in a time where the man took care of his family by providing financially. He wasn't able to do that. He changed jobs quite often and never really made much money. I think he tried to contribute in other ways but I don't think it was ever enough for him. I think he wanted the career I have but didn't seem to understand how hard I worked to get where I am. So I think that he took it out on me in a lot of ways through control and manipulation and such. It didn't excuse his behavior but it shed some light on it for me which is helping me to let go of it and to move on with my life.

This is also where understanding my ex's childhood helped me understand at least somewhat why he is the way he is. I think his mother is NPD and could be BPD as well. I think there is a lot of family dysfunction that contributed to his way of coping and such. Your husband may have similar issues and a certain coping mechanism to avoid dealing with his issues and feelings.  Yes it may take quite some time for him to work through his issues. I think a therapist can help you during this time as well.

[Jester20]

It sounds to me that he actually wants to move backwards, not forwards, to where you were. Past tense. Were. People change over time. I don't agree with trying to force anyone to be someone they are not. It seems magical/wishful thinking, IMO, as well which isn't healthy for anyone. It's also hard on you because he's trying to force you back when you're trying to move forward. It sucks. I get it.

I'm glad he's in therapy. I really do hope it helps both of you. Do you have a therapist as well? If not, I suggest finding a good one to help you through this. It's a frustrating place to be.

His not having a job could explain a lot of his behavior too, IMO. It seems to me like he probably feels ashamed, frustrated, angry, insecure, or something like that because he doesn't have a job. He then seems to be projecting his feelings onto you in the form of "disrespecting" him instead of dealing with his feelings. During my twenty year marriage, I was always the breadwinner. I always had a job and made more money than him. Sometimes I wonder if this contributed to some of my ex's abuse. I'm guessing he may have felt inadequate as a man because he wasn't the breadwinner for our family. He grew up in a time where the man took care of his family by providing financially. He wasn't able to do that. He changed jobs quite often and never really made much money. I think he tried to contribute in other ways but I don't think it was ever enough for him. I think he wanted the career I have but didn't seem to understand how hard I worked to get where I am. So I think that he took it out on me in a lot of ways through control and manipulation and such. It didn't excuse his behavior but it shed some light on it for me which is helping me to let go of it and to move on with my life.

This is also where understanding my ex's childhood helped me understand at least somewhat why he is the way he is. I think his mother is NPD and could be BPD as well. I think there is a lot of family dysfunction that contributed to his way of coping and such. Your husband may have similar issues and a certain coping mechanism to avoid dealing with his issues and feelings.  Yes it may take quite some time for him to work through his issues. I think a therapist can help you during this time as well.

I am waiting to hear back from an nhs therapist on Monday following my initial screening. Your right. I need to work on my feelings over the last few years if this marriage is going to survive. Which I am not even sure it will.

[Jester20]

So, I’m sorry it has taken a while to get back and respond. But following his group 2weeks ago he came home and was very apologetic about the ‘can you dress nicer thing’.
He gave me a hug and asked if I could forgive him.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Not a problem. I haven't been on here in awhile either. Life happens. :-) 

That sounds like a really good step in the right direction. How do you feel about it?

[Jester20]

Not a problem. I haven't been on here in awhile either. Life happens. :-) 
E
That sounds like a really good step in the right direction. How do you feel about it?

I felt ok about it. We have had some good talks. He said he is learning all these new ways of communicating, learning to know it is ok to be angry with things and that it is a normal emotion but learning not to let that anger rule him. He said it’s like he feels a whole new life might now be possible and that he just wants to ‘ be there’ but is trying to run before he can walk. He obviously still gets caught out by emotion but I can see he is trying very hard and at this point I don’t think I could ask for more. Group is the place he can make ‘mistakes’ with communication so he isn’t trying too much new stuff with me. Which I am grateful for because he did try a few things and I just felt very confused.

I think there is a part of me that can now also have some compassion for him... .and seeing how hard even the most basic things are for him. I don’t think I cared before when it was just all bad. I just felt like I hated him, didn’t want to be around him, didn’t want to understand him.
Now it is like he is becoming more human and I can see past my own hurts, anger and resentment and think ‘ wow, how must that feel for him, that must truly be an awful way to be’.

[formflier]

Jester,

Not sure if I've been in any of your posts before... .I don't believe I have.  Since I don't know details, I'll try to stay broad with my observations.

1.  You (as the non) are going to have to be the leader, especially in areas of compromise.  It's very easy (as others have mentioned) to think "they have BPD... .why should I put forth effort to compromise"? 

2.  When he brings up something so specific (disrespect tied to no dress up)... .I would suggest jumping straight to solutions.  If he proposes something reasonable... .agree to it... 100%... .and have a  nice moment.  Or jump right into compromise.

3.  I'm very curious about your decision to stick around in a conversation after the word "lazy" or "slob", whichever came first.  My general advice is to end a conversation where there are insults... .but don't "accuse" the other person of doing it.

"Hey babe... .I'm going to take a break from the conversation.  I'm available to talk later when insults are not between us"

Notice

1.  You were friendly "hey babe"
2.  You owned it.
3.  You stated the issue "insults"
4.  You reference  you two being "together" with the reference to something "coming between you"

There is no accusation like "you insulted me". 

Leave it up to him to sort through where the insults came from... .you don't need to "toss them at him" and you certainly don't need to "catch them"

Good luck with all this... .glad you guys are working on things.

Healing is possible.

FF