Pearls of wisdom?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have a question for people that have gone through the divorce process with a spouse with BPD (and possibly children). Looking back what things did you do or wish you had done right around the time you left the relationship that would have been helpful to you or the process overall? I'm basically at decision point time, so trying to mentally prepare myself for it.

I generally feel like I have a good intuition about what to do and when to do it, but I'm a little bit stuck with what is obviously a life changing decision. My concerns are for my own personal safety, well-being of my D3 and admittedly the well-being of my spouse. Despite my desire to be out of this relationship I don't want bad things to happen to her. Also, what do I say to my D3? I know I'm not looking forward to the uncertainty of a divorce process and custody issues, though I know things for me will get better almost from day one.

I find the advice here to be so much better than any other site, or even talking to trained counselors. Thank you again.

[lpheal]

I have a question for people that have gone through the divorce process with a spouse with BPD (and possibly children). Looking back what things did you do or wish you had done right around the time you left the relationship that would have been helpful to you or the process overall? I'm basically at decision point time, so trying to mentally prepare myself for it.

I generally feel like I have a good intuition about what to do and when to do it, but I'm a little bit stuck with what is obviously a life changing decision. My concerns are for my own personal safety, well-being of my D3 and admittedly the well-being of my spouse. Despite my desire to be out of this relationship I don't want bad things to happen to her. Also, what do I say to my D3? I know I'm not looking forward to the uncertainty of a divorce process and custody issues, though I know things for me will get better almost from day one.

I find the advice here to be so much better than any other site, or even talking to trained counselors. Thank you again.

[livednlearned]

It might be easier if you walk us through what you plan to do. We can chime in from the peanut gallery 

What are some things you are thinking about saying to D3?

Have you consulted with a lawyer?

[lpheal]

There are basically two ways I could initiate a divorce. There has been a fair amount of abuse in my situation, but I can't say my life has been in danger. I just shouldn't have to live with this harassment, and yes it could likely escalate. I could serve a TRO at the same time as a divorce and force my wife out of the house. I would have temporary full legal custody of D3 until a hearing, at which time she would likely get some level of custody. It protects me from false charges and likely gives me an advantage for custody (in a 51-49 fashion). It would send a strong message that her behavior is wrong, but I think it would create a permanent hostility with someone I'm going to have to communicate with about D3 for 15 more years.

The other option is I just move out very quickly and serve her unexpectedly without a TRO. I would try to convince her to agree to a mediated settlement out of court, with the warning that if we go to court all of her behavior is going to come out for public viewing. I set myself up for the possibility of false charges against me, and by leaving the house I could be at a disadvantage for custody.

My issues are the following:

How do I predict my wife's response? Impossible to know for sure, but my thought about her is her greatest fear is having her behavior exposed to others. On some post on this site way back someone mentioned a book that discussed this. I wish I could find the name of that book. I think there is a reasonable chance she would want to keep all of this out of the court. Outside of her dysfunction at home, she is very much a straight arrow and (never say never) think it unlikely she would make a false allegation. Without getting into details, she could lose big professionally making false allegations about me (even if the court couldn't do anything about it).

What is my concern about leading with a TRO? While my wife deserves it, my D3 doesn't deserve any of it. So I want to do what is in her best interest in the long term. If there is any chance to minimize conflict it seems like it is worth doing. I feel like it could be called the gray rock technique for leaving the relationship. At some level my wife knows she has issues. I also think her family and her friends generally like me. If her response to me is overly hostile she will come out looking pretty bad to all of those people and it's another way her behavior is exposed. A TRO makes it easier for her to paint me black to all of those people, and in a sense would justify her future permanent hostility. I don't care about their opinions they will always be in her camp, but strategically it might help me if (and my D3) if she has to at least publicly keep up the appearance of being the little miss nice woman.

I do have an attorney retained, and will meet with them again soon. I have spoken with a number of attorneys off the record about this, and the general consensus has been the following: In this state the default for custody is usually about 50-50. My wife is not a drug abuser and has not abused D3. She will present herself well in court and is highly educated. Despite everything that she has done to me, the court is likely to say these are two adults that don't get along but they both seem like involved parents. In terms of child custody the result would come out about the same.

So how much is a 51-49 victory worth over a 49-51 outcome if it avoids a lot of legal conflict? What is the better long term outcome for D3? If her behavior toward D3 changes down the road you go to court, but maybe for now it's the least painful and quickest way to lose.

I'm still trying to decide what I would say to D3... .

[livednlearned]

Can you say more about what would substantiate the TRO?

[ForeverDad]

You probably don't have to limit yourself to saying "my life is in danger".  If you're a woman, you can probably just state you "feel unsafe" in close or un-monitored contact.  If you're a man, the court may want more than simply you "feeling unsafe or at risk".  What I'm saying is that you may not have to describe in great specificity how your spouse was waving around a kitchen knife or whatever.  Your experienced lawyer can tell you how things go in your local court.  There are some states where it's standard that a spouse can file for divorce and a TRO at the same time.

However, you do have to be consistent in every statement.  If you say you're in fear of whatever, then never say you're not in fear in such situations.  If your spouse gets a lawyer and you are questioned on the stand the lawyer's goal will be to get you to state sometimes you're not fearful and then he will turn to the judge and say, "Dismiss this case since this person is not fearful or whatever."  Cases are often dismissed on technicalities so don't trip yourself up.

If you do have incidents to reference, it's usually best that they be recent, not more than 6 months ago (over 6 months is viewed as 'stale' or not very actionable) unless you're trying to establish a pattern of abusive behavior.  Imagine calling emergency services and stating "Last week my spouse threatened to ____".  Would they rush out officers?  It may eventually get investigated but perhaps the person would reply, "Please call emergency services again when it's an emergency."

[livednlearned]

I'm still trying to decide what I would say to D3... .

It's great that you are thinking ahead about this, and looking for feedback.

My T, and my son's T, always emphasized that the important thing to do was to S16 grieve, and to validate how he felt. I also learned the hard way to not comfort him with platitudes, and to not say that his dad loved him. That is for those two to figure out. S16 did not need me confusing him further by equating abusive behavior with love. I think our instinct is to console kids during divorce, "Mom and dad love you both." That's super confusing for kids who have BPD parents.

Our tendency is often to comfort and console away the difficult feelings, especially if you have codependent traits. Try to bear witness to the grief she feels, and if you feel guilty -- those are your feelings to work through, plus any sadness you might feel.

I told my son (who was 9 when I left), "It's my job to keep us safe, and I can no longer do that. We are going to stay in an apartment for a while, and things are going to be different for everyone." Plus some other things that probably aren't relevant given D3's age.

Looking back, I wish I had said, ":)o you have any questions for me?" Altho, I'm not sure if that would be helpful for your D3. One thing you could do is talk to a child psychologist and ask if there are practices that he or she recommends. My sense is that most parents are so consumed with how they perceive the divorce that they tend to overlook the developmental stage of their child. I know I did that.

I also wish that S16 and I did family counseling together. He saw a counselor of his own, and I had one, too. But I feel like a bit of a gulf developed and sometimes I wonder if the two of us together with a skilled professional would've helped. S16 is genetically predisposed to anxiety/depression, so it's also possible that it was inevitable he would struggle more than normal.

A great book to read is Power of Validation for parents -- it will walk you through the principles that you are going for. I found that my instinct is to always skip quickly to happily ever after as a parent, instead of taking a big deep breath and leaning into the pain with my kid. When kids have a severely invalidating parent who is BPD, their hunger for this will be much more intense, and it will have to come from you.

Validation will also help stave off the parental alienation that tends to go with our BPD relationships, too... .

[lpheal]

You probably don't have to limit yourself to saying "my life is in danger".  If you're a woman, you can probably just state you "feel unsafe" in close or un-monitored contact.  If you're a man, the court may want more than simply you "feeling unsafe or at risk".  What I'm saying is that you may not have to describe in great specificity how your spouse was waving around a kitchen knife or whatever.  Your experienced lawyer can tell you how things go in your local court.  There are some states where it's standard that a spouse can file for divorce and a TRO at the same time.

However, you do have to be consistent in every statement.

If you do have incidents to reference, it's usually best that they be recent

Thank you. I met the attorney yesterday and they said the physical abuse that has happened to me is enough to request a TRO (last episode within the week... .and predictably every 4-6 weeks). It was strongly recommended I get one based on their past experience. They said in their firm's experience the TRO does a good job of containing the behavior in the case of female abusers (much more reliably than with men it sounds like). In the cases where the male attempted to be cordial and stay away from a TRO it has gone badly every time because the female has taken advantage of the situation in a number of ways they didn't specify. You can file for divorce and the TRO at the same time here, which was recommended. Even with the TRO in place, an attempt at mediation is required (just not face-to-face). Also, it is not a long time before the full restraining order hearing after the initial TRO. So my wife would resume seeing D3 again in a short period of time. So my goals in minimizing the conflict in the situation are actually better accomplished by having this in place to protect me from future abuse and also other actions on her part.

[lpheal]

It's great that you are thinking ahead about this, and looking for feedback.

Our tendency is often to comfort and console away the difficult feelings, especially if you have codependent traits. Try to bear witness to the grief she feels, and if you feel guilty -- those are your feelings to work through, plus any sadness you might feel.

"It's my job to keep us safe, and I can no longer do that. We are going to stay in an apartment for a while, and things are going to be different for everyone."

A great book to read is Power of Validation

Thank you so much. The well-being of my D3 is the part of this that I worry about constantly, and that keeps me up at night. I've been told it is normal to feel grief that I will not provide the childhood for her I wanted to (with an intact family), but I definitely should not feel guilt toward my wife or what I need to do.

I love what you told your son, will definitely remember that and also look for the book.

[livednlearned]

The well-being of my D3 is the part of this that I worry about constantly, and that keeps me up at night.

I read somewhere that for children to do well, they need one sympathetic witness to their feelings.

You will be that for her 

Another thing to do is read up on parental alienation -- it goes with the territory. The natural parent-child role is for the adult to validate the child's feelings, and BPD parents do the reverse. Expect the child to tend to their feelings.

Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison will tip you off to some of the scenarios you might experience. I felt very freaked out when I read the book because some of the scenarios hit all of my anxiety buttons, but very little of it came to pass, mainly because I was proactive, like you are. And D3 is young, so you are ahead of things.

For example, she might come home one day and say, "Mom says you love the dog more than me." Your gut response might be, "Of course I don't love the dog more than you!"

Which plays right into the dynamic, especially if mom tells her, "He'll say that isn't true, but I know it for a fact."

Instead, the book might instruct you to say, "Wow! That would make me feel terrible if I felt my dad loved the dog more than me! How did you feel when mama said that to you?"

That puts D3 in the driver's seat with her own emotions, not swept away in a warped sequence of logic loops that can easily entrap us.

Dr. Craig Childress also has a lot of good material, although it's a bit more academic and he deals with some severe cases of parental alienation.

The key is to be proactive and break the spell with lots of validation, and figuring out healthy, effective ways to puncture BPD realities that end up hurting the kids.

I truly believe that arming yourself with this knowledge early makes all the difference.

You will become D3's emotion whisperer   and help guide her safely through the distortions ahead

[ForeverDad]

Do you get the impression that Validation is a learned skill?  Sadly, due to the lack of cooperation, even obstruction, from the other parent, we need to become skilled in validation.  Review, even rehearse, how you might handle various scenarios.  Believe me, there will be times when you're caught off guard and at a loss as to what to do.  LnL's examples show how our initial responses can be better when we're more informed and familiar with predictable problems.

My son was 3 years old when we separated.  Even before then the invalidation had started.  I recall one time I was leaving for work and she hugged our preschooler and said, "Yo te quiero pero papi no te quiere".  Translated, "I want/love you but daddy doesn't love you".  Imagine doing that to a child!  Still, he turned out to be daddy's boy for many years.  For the first few years after separation, he would literally come running to me and jump in my arms.  When I would bring him back to the exchange location he would be crying and struggling to stay with me.  Yeah, and she would accuse, "What did you do to him?"  Hey, he didn't want to go back.

[lpheal]

Do you get the impression that Validation is a learned skill? 

Yes, critically important especially with a BPD spouse! However, I feel like I could be a master at it and still come up short during a rage. I've definitely become more aware of what I say and how I say it to people though.

[flourdust]

and still come up short during a rage

Of course. It's not a magic spell. Part of learning validation is learning when it works or doesn't.