Hmmm...maybe I was addicted to the drama?

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I've been using the tools and for the last few months, I feel like I've been able to navigate the BPD storms. Since I'm not adding wind or rain to the weather, the storms have been squalls but not hurricanes and I've been able to stay comfy and dry.

What I've discovered is that although I can validate and keep things calm, I'm realizing that I'm not feeling very attracted to my husband. The endless "poor me", victimhood, complaints and narcissistic wound is not very inspiring. If I were to meet this person today for the first time, I doubt that I would have fallen "madly in love" with him as I did many years ago.

I'm comfortable in my life circumstance and I have enough close friends for intimate conversation, but wow, I'm seeing him in a very different light now. Yes, he does have some charming qualities, but those less than charming attributes really put a thumb on the scale.

Have you found yourself in this position? And what have you chosen to do?

[formflier]

Perhaps you have noticed over the past few months that there is less "day to day" reporting from me on "how bad my wife is".  I've tried to back away from paying attention to that and paying more attention to me and my feelings... .

Impossible to separate "my" posts from "posts about her".  For instance... .it was genuinely amusing that she attempted some sort of NC thing and I enjoyed my time alone.  I got some stuff done.

However, the longer I reflected on it... .there is some sadness there too. 

My wife is beautiful... anyone, including me would find her physically attractive.  She still does things, from time to time, that are attractive/endearing.

She still does things, from time to time, that are BPDish and that I want no part of. 

Not really sure where all of this is going or what I'm going to "do" about it. 


FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree that not focusing explicitly on all the BPD craziness is a good step. Sometimes I lose perspective and then I remember how my ex-husband was MEGA-BPD/NPD/ASPD and my current one is BPD-lite.

But I guess I'm feeling sorry for myself thinking that I've never had a longterm relationship with a healthy man and grieving that idea.

Then I look around me at the relationships that my friends have and have had in the past. And perhaps I'm just grieving an unattainable ideal that's only in my imagination.

Pretty much all my life I've been enthralled (not in a good way) by people with BPD--starting with my mother. It was so inexplicable--the rapidly changing moods--I tried hard to figure out something that was "unfigureoutable". I even became a psych major and went to grad school for a while to try and understand the incomprehensible.

And because of the familiar--it drew me to two marriages with men with BPD. Now that things are on more of an even keel, I realize that I haven't had much time in my entire life where I wasn't dealing with someone else's highly charged moods. (With my husband, I regularly deal with his depression, but I'm learning to have boundaries with that.)

Yep. This is a whole new phase for me.

[formflier]

Remember... .appearances can be deceiving.  We all have our private sides.  So, while I'm sure you have a pretty good idea of what your friends relationships are like, there are usually things kept private.

I certainly look at other people's relationships differently now.

Back to my decision to disengage (more) from the day to day "can you believe what she did" thing... .  Well... as you know, my family used to raise lots of hogs.  Now just crops (beans and corn this year... .hoping to get all beans combined and sold today... fingers crossed). 

Anyway, I've been trying to use the analogy of "if you don't want to get dirty... .don't wrestle with pigs, which for me has actually been able to bring back some favorable memories of what I looked like after trying to capture one my Dad sent me after...    , while at the same time be practical in my relationship.

Hopefully you can use the ideal as something to shoot for... .a northern star to follow, vice a measuring stick that brings about disappointment. 

Last... .given that things are calm, you are reflecting on your relationship... .perhaps it's time to figure out if you want to ride bareback again... .sometimes that can freshen up everyone's perspective on the world.  Or... .if you think there will be lots of bucking... .perhaps a saddle would provide a safer experience... .

 


FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well I'm finding myself in a position of strength and clarity. Hope it lasts! 

[Notwendy]

Cat, more and more, I believe that what I experienced as attraction is probably not in my best interest. What I experienced and witnessed as love as a child was not emotionally healthy love. As a child, too, I longed for some kind of connection with my parents, and I had to work very hard for their approval ( and it was off and on).

The drama, the highs and the lows are addictive.

I am OK with not feeling this. I would rather have a steady sense of calm and not have drama. Knowing this is my choice, I can be OK with this.

I have read about cultures who do arranged marriages. Surprisingly, they work- possibly better than our way of looking for someone we are attracted to and then marrying them. These are backwards- they start with compatibility and some chemistry ( many arranged meetings have veto power if there is none of this). They meet and marry fast. Thankfully the families have done some background checking on compatibility for them.

You would imagine these situations are not going to work, but the way many of us do things has a 50% divorce rate and while not all of them work out, it's amazing that the ones they do work.

Underlying these marriages is love as a choice, a verb, not a feeling. Two people are committed to making this work, and it can.

If I give up my idea of attraction it leaves room for choosing to love the person I am with or not. Once I choose to love, then I honor that choice. It may not feel like what I am familiar with but that doesn't make it any less real or good. It's probably better- like giving up junk food for something healthy. The junk food might look appealing at first, but it isn't good or nourishing.

We also have to consider what Hollywood tells us love is. Gorgeous man meets gorgeous woman- then two seconds later they are engaged in acrobatics on the bed. Or the Bachelor where they are at some exotic vacation spot proclaiming their love after meeting each other 30 minutes ago. Where are the scenes where they are wearing sweat pants, tired, cranky, but love each other anyway?

Maybe this is the real deal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlj4exwlWjo

[flourdust]

Well I'm finding myself in a position of strength and clarity. Hope it lasts! 

Can you say a bit more about what changed? You said you were using the tools -- which tools, and what happened when you used them, and how did that make you feel?

What do you want to do differently now?

[Cat Familiar]

What I experienced and witnessed as love as a child was not emotionally healthy love. As a child, too, I longed for some kind of connection with my parents, and I had to work very hard for their approval ( and it was off and on).


Yes, I felt this way too. With the distance of time and greater understanding, I realize now that my dad was Aspergers. I do believe he loved me and it was easier when I was a young child because I didn't have all the complications of a teenager. But emotionally expressive, he was not.

My mother's love was so fleeting; she was so absorbed in her own mental dramas. But as we all know with pwBPD, when they finally do show us the full measure of their "love"--it was highly addicting and I kept trying to make it happen again and again.

I would rather have a steady sense of calm and not have drama. Knowing this is my choice, I can be OK with this.


You and me both, Notwendy. However I was really drawn to the "bad boys" when I was young. And drama is the end result of that attraction.

We also have to consider what Hollywood tells us love is. Gorgeous man meets gorgeous woman- then two seconds later they are engaged in acrobatics on the bed. Or the Bachelor where they are at some exotic vacation spot proclaiming their love after meeting each other 30 minutes ago. Where are the scenes where they are wearing sweat pants, tired, cranky, but love each other anyway?


And now we all know that those Hollywood fantasies are created by creepy men like Harvey Weinstein. Yes, time to rethink these rom coms and see things from a more realistic, humanistic perspective.

[Cat Familiar]

Can you say a bit more about what changed? You said you were using the tools -- which tools, and what happened when you used them, and how did that make you feel?

What do you want to do differently now?

Well, my husband, being so well trained as a lawyer, tends to pick up linguistic formats such as SET. I've been horrified when after only a couple of tries, he's parroted them back at me. At one point, I was wondering if he was tracking my internet use.

However, I don't think that's true. I think it's just because he's so precise with words (sometimes--when he's not dysregulated).

So what does work and it works very well is validation.

My psychologist, who had previously seen the two of us, sees him more on the narcissistic spectrum. I think he doesn't at all present the weakness and vulnerability of BPD to anyone but me. (Again--the lawyer thing)

So, using validation, I'd have to agree that yes, there's quite a bit of narcissism there. I can validate so much that to me it seems on the edge of ridiculousness, but he eats it up like ice cream. So, definitely that works well with him.

Also, I'm much more aware of when he's starting to dysregulate. When that happens, I back off and go neutral. If we had been talking about a particular subject which seemed to put him on the edge, I change the subject, do something entirely different, suggest we take a hot tub or ask for his help in doing something like opening a jar. (The bright shiny object ploy)

Another thing I've done is when I've wanted him to try and understand my point of view, I realize that coming at him directly (which is my typical mode--I'm very direct) doesn't at all work and gets his defenses up. So I figure out how I can ask him a question.

Another strategy I've been able to use it the "My friend John" gambit. If I can honestly figure out how to tell him a story about someone else's situation (with obvious parallels to my own), then I can describe a scenario where he can understand how it would be good to feel empathy for "John". He may not consciously get the similarity, but I suspect his unconscious mind starts sorting it out.

The irony is that my husband can feel sympathetic toward other people, but empathy is not his strong suit, especially when his defenses are up, and especially when it's about me.

[flourdust]

It sounds great that you've been able to defuse bad situations! How do you feel now that things are more in control?

This seems like good first aid - you've stopped the bleeding. What is the next step? What do you want to happen now that you have some space from the daily drama?

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds great that you've been able to defuse bad situations! How do you feel now that things are more in control?

This seems like good first aid - you've stopped the bleeding. What is the next step? What do you want to happen now that you have some space from the daily drama?

I'm very happy to be able to maintain a more peaceful environment, but at the same time, I've lost a tremendous amount of respect for my husband. At first, as so many of us do before we know more about BPD, I was hoping our relationship would go back to the "good old days" when I was painted white.

Now I realize that will never happen. I just went to the hardware store and had an enjoyable conversation with one of the employees there as I was troubleshooting a strategy to fix the lid of a cedar chest that had come apart. Apparently I'm quite adept at visualizing hardware parts that aren't in existence. Knowing what's not available, I came up with an alternative solution after a lot of fun talking with another human being.

Then I went to the gravel yard and ordered some materials to be delivered. Again I had a wonderfully funny conversation with the woman working there. It occurred to me that I'm so deficient in these sorts of normal conversations with my husband. I guess I'll just have to rely upon my friends, acquaintances and business associates for that sort of human interaction.

To answer your question about my next step after getting some space from the daily drama, I'd like to further inoculate myself from his bad moods. He just showed up while I was typing this, fortunately I had a lot of pages on my screen. But as he left, I realized, he left some of his toxic black mood in the room with me. I want to be free enough and strong enough to not let that creeping depression settle upon me.

The next steps are unknown. I now realize that other people can charge my emotional batteries, while I've let him run them down.

[flourdust]

It's never a good idea to rely on one person to be your emotional support, especially if that person is emotionally challenged himself. I'm glad you are working on widening your interactions with others.

It sounds like you're saying that you have calmed things down enough to think (that's very good), and that you've realized that your relationship will never return to the "painted white" days. That's true. It was also a fantasy on your part. Remember that being painted white is no more balanced or reasonable than being painted black. A normal relationship shouldn't involve one partner being unrealistically idolized.

It also sounds like you're saying that since that won't happen, there's no point in trying to have any kind of improved relationship at all with your husband. Are those really the only two options?

[formflier]

 

Now I realize that will never happen. 

Now... the rational part of me realizes that it's not likely... .I think we can both accept that.   Remember I'm a words guy... .this sort of shows your attitude... .a judgment.

Do you think your hubby can sense this?

What would it look like if YOU went back (or forward) to where you want to be in your r/s... .and waited for a bit.  He may not come join you... .or he may.

Remember my speech about leadership in  a r/s with a pwBPD... .how will leaving it up to him work out?

You never know... .he may at least come and "peek" at where you are at... .perhaps you can walk towards him and join him.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't want to go back to the first times we met- nor can I be that person. We are both responsible for those showing our best sides only days and I was fearful and co dependent.

I think I've been where Cat is. But I think by working on me and gaining my own self respect I can be loving to others. It's not easy- it's not easy to forget the bad times and not fear they will return but they won't - not on my part. I am not the doormat I was.

I agree with not leaning on one person for emotional needs  I think it is ok to get my needs met with boundaries of course. I can call a female friend - chat with coworkers ( but only work appropriate ) . 12 step groups are also a support system.

I think part of your Hs problem is he doesn't have a hobby to replace his job in retirement. My H has work and hobbies.  It's important to have the stimulation and fellowship. Is there anything you and he can do together where he can meet people? He doesn't seem to have the ability or motivation to do this on his own. Think hard on this - cooking classes, bowling league - something to get him out and active.

What can you respect about him? My H is great with the kids now. Little kids were not his thing but our kids love their Dad. That means a lot to me. Your H has to have his good points - what are they?

Your H may be depressed since retiring. That was his identity. You can't fix him but maybe help lead him to something. Maybe pro bono work for someone who can't afford a lawyer. Maybe work on a Habitat House.

[Cat Familiar]

It's never a good idea to rely on one person to be your emotional support, especially if that person is emotionally challenged himself. I'm glad you are working on widening your interactions with others.

It sounds like you're saying that you have calmed things down enough to think (that's very good), and that you've realized that your relationship will never return to the "painted white" days. That's true. It was also a fantasy on your part. Remember that being painted white is no more balanced or reasonable than being painted black. A normal relationship shouldn't involve one partner being unrealistically idolized.

It also sounds like you're saying that since that won't happen, there's no point in trying to have any kind of improved relationship at all with your husband. Are those really the only two options?

I do have a number of close friends with whom I interact, but perhaps I'm discovering that I need more social input. I've tended to be an introvert, but I'm discovering that I enjoy being around other people more than I had realized. I think it's due to being around a sullen uncommunicative person for a long period of time. I don't remember him being so "un-fun" for such an extended period of time in the past. Of course, that's when there were more dysregulations happening so I was dealing with more chaos. But it seemed like there were some fun happy times in between.

I do understand the white phases are just the flip side of the black phases, and I want neither. But what I would want is a more communicative partner who has a bit more life spirit and sense of adventure.

I'm not saying there's no hope for improvement on his part, but it's not in my ability to change him, nor is it my business. I'm not seeing in polarities--like there's no point trying to make things better or wanting the unrealistic romantic dream of the first blush of getting together.

It's just that I'm seeing things clearly and it's surprising. I was so smitten in the beginning, that I glossed over all sorts of issues. I wouldn't go so far as saying that I have contempt for him, but I'm seeing things I really disrespect, such as not keeping his word and trying to appear more favorably in other's eyes by promising things he's not willing to follow through with.

[Cat Familiar]

Now... the rational part of me realizes that it's not likely... .I think we can both accept that.   Remember I'm a words guy... .this sort of shows your attitude... .a judgment.

Do you think your hubby can sense this?

What would it look like if YOU went back (or forward) to where you want to be in your r/s... .and waited for a bit.  He may not come join you... .or he may.

Remember my speech about leadership in  a r/s with a pwBPD... .how will leaving it up to him work out?

You never know... .he may at least come and "peek" at where you are at... .perhaps you can walk towards him and join him.

Thoughts?

FF

I agree that I'm certainly making some judgments about him. And being a pwBPD, he can undoubtedly sense that something is up. However, I'm such a "poker player" that I keep these thoughts very close to the vest.

I'm finding myself in a very new emotional place. I guess I could characterize my evolution of thought thusly:

1. Initially I was really pissed off, hurt, disappointed, feeling duped to discover my "perfect husband" has BPD
2. I went through a lot of grief. Still pissed off.
3. I got strategic and tried new things.
4. I'm finding relative peace with my new approach.
5. Now getting an overview of my situation without all those pesky "feelings" interfering with my clarity
6. Deciding that some of what I observe in him rubs me the wrong way
7. Realizing that if I were to have met him today, with my current clarity, I doubt that the relationship would have turned into marriage
8. Feeling shocked to honestly admit that

So I'm not adamantly opposed to being open and letting the relationship take whatever form it takes. And with the strength and clarity I've gained, I'm not afraid of being more vulnerable. It's just that all this awareness is rather new at the moment. I'll just be open and see how things unfold.

[Cat Familiar]

I think I've been where Cat is. But I think by working on me and gaining my own self respect I can be loving to others. It's not easy- it's not easy to forget the bad times and not fear they will return but they won't - not on my part. I am not the doormat I was.

I think part of your Hs problem is he doesn't have a hobby to replace his job in retirement. My H has work and hobbies.  It's important to have the stimulation and fellowship. Is there anything you and he can do together where he can meet people? He doesn't seem to have the ability or motivation to do this on his own. Think hard on this - cooking classes, bowling league - something to get him out and active.

What can you respect about him? My H is great with the kids now. Little kids were not his thing but our kids love their Dad. That means a lot to me. Your H has to have his good points - what are they?

Your H may be depressed since retiring. That was his identity. You can't fix him but maybe help lead him to something. Maybe pro bono work for someone who can't afford a lawyer. Maybe work on a Habitat House.

You raise a good point, Notwendy, about remembering the "bad times". Beings that I'm such an animal person, I tend to see behavior in terms of animal training. I think of horses who have been abused or have been handled by people who were untrustworthy and as a result, have been hurt. Those horses are very wary of trusting another human again. (I feel like that due to BPD mom, BPD/NPD/ASPD ex-husband and to a much lesser extent by my current husband.)

I cannot erase from my mind some of the crazy stuff he did when he was dysregulated a couple of years ago: hitting himself in the head and asking me "Is that what you want?" ":)o you like it?" "You hate me!" It was horrifying seeing him behave that way, and it happened several times. And then all the other whacky BPD behavior that was on a more daily basis, but didn't go to such extremes.

I feel damaged having experienced all this from him and frankly, it ruined my sense of trust in him, even trust that he could be a normal human being.

If he were to have a hobby that enabled him to interact with people on a regular basis, I think that would be very helpful. He does do individual study learning the Tibetan language and he interacts with likeminded people and his teacher on conference calls, but that's no substitute for human contact.

I'll think of ways where we might do things together in a social context. I had gotten to the point where I didn't want to do much of anything with him because it was so much fun not being around his sad sack persona. Of course when he's around other people, he puts on a different persona and everyone (or should I say the ones who are easily fooled) thinks he's a lively and charming character. Some of my friends have seen right through all that and one of them told me how insecure he appears. I was very impressed with her observational skills as she hasn't had much interaction with him.

He hated being a lawyer, but it was an identity. I do remember feeling rather adrift when I quit my business, as it was my identity too and everyone knew me by that. I think you may be right about the depression after retirement. He does seem kind of adrift.

Unfortunately he hasn't a charitable bone in his body as far as sharing his legal skills. He does occasionally give money to various causes, but he could do so much more that would ultimately be a contribution to the community and give him the appreciation and recognition he so desperately desires. But, that's him... .

My story, compared to many others here, is very mild. I've certainly experienced far worse with my ex-husband and the irrationality from my mother definitely set a damaging pattern in motion.

I don't intend to go to the "poor me" place, but I realize that I'm very wary.

[formflier]

So I'm not adamantly opposed to being open and letting the relationship take whatever form it takes. And with the strength and clarity I've gained, I'm not afraid of being more vulnerable. It's just that all this awareness is rather new at the moment. I'll just be open and see how things unfold.

Two things... .I've made a mental list almost exactly like the one you just listed out.   No way I would ever have chosen to get involved with this family... .if I had the smallest idea of what they were like.

There is conflict as I think of that... .because that means that my 8 kids, who are very precious... .would not be here... .or if I had met someone else... .those kids would be different.

Anyway...

Back to what i quoted.  I'm against you "being open"... .I'm for you "being deliberate".  I would challenge you to think about a couple of the ideas "you are open to"... pick one... .and do it with him... .

Perhaps a once a week breakfast... .perhaps (fill in the blank)

Last thing.  What was it about lawyering that he hated?  Has he said?  How long since you talked to him about it?

Do you think he would do pro bono work... .could he (license and all?).

Last... judgmental thing from FF... .that actually came from my "organizational behavior" class that I started today (MBA program).  Anway... ."happy' people are happy in crappy jobs... .and "grumpy" people are grumpy in wonderful jobs.   The "variation" in switching job is "more or less"... .but they rarely switch from "happy" to "grumpy".

Hope that makes sense. 

FF

[Notwendy]

I understand where you are coming from Cat. My situation is also very mild compared to some others I have read about and also compared to my mother. There is way more good in my marriage than difficult- and it is actually getting better over time- probably due to a lot of work on changes in me and the fact that the issues were mild. I do not think my mother could make this kind of progress- she is seriously mentally affected to the point where it impacts her learning and functioning.

I could have written the same list you wrote. I tolerated a lot when the kids were little. I didn't want to break up their home and also they needed full time care and I was able to be the stay at home mom. I coped by focusing on them. They are older now and I am happier-  being back at work- which does meet a lot of my social needs- I have social interaction and find the work interesting. I was not unhappy being a stay at home mother, but the marital issues were such that I didn't feel emotionally connected or supportive.

I do feel a bit like the horses that were handled by untrustworthy people. The two most important relationships with men in my life were both hurtful. My H painted me black early on in my marriage and then eventually decided not to.  My father joined my mother in her anger at me. I also don't want to be "poor me"- these men also have been good influences in my life and done tremendous good for me and the children. I think I had to accept that people are just who they are- both with strong points and not strong points. Maybe I was too trusting or idealizing or looking for the impossible.

I have read the idea of marriage as a crucible- designed to make us grow. I have to say that it certainly did for me and I think for the better. I don't think we should tolerate abuse though. Your situation is mild and I hope that there is a way to make it work- maybe not the ideas we thought it should be. You two may not be the kind of couple that is BFF's - do everything together. You may be two people who each have your own hobbies and interests, but can be a team in some ways together. But I get that you are disappointed now and I think we have to feel our feelings honestly. Wherever you are is where you are.

[Cat Familiar]

Back to what i quoted.  I'm against you "being open"... .I'm for you "being deliberate".  I would challenge you to think about a couple of the ideas "you are open to"... pick one... .and do it with him... .

Perhaps a once a week breakfast... .perhaps (fill in the blank)

Last thing.  What was it about lawyering that he hated?  Has he said?  How long since you talked to him about it?

Do you think he would do pro bono work... .could he (license and all?).


FF, You make a good point about not being open generically, but for specific things. The sad truth is that we cannot trust our pwBPD to be level headed, kind, compassionate, aware when their emotions are triggered. Therefore a more structured relationship is not only pragmatic, but necessary.

We did have a nice Sunday breakfast together and I made what I thought was rather a nice dinner. But not one word about it from him. When he cooks anything, which is infrequent, he demands a lot of feedback and praise.

No about the lawyering. He's let his license go "inactive" so he's not legally able to give opinions. I'm the one who gives opinions when people ask, but I say "This is probably what a lawyer would tell you." Usually I have a pretty good idea of what the law is for minor issues and I always tell people to consult with proper legal sources. But, when pushed, I'll tell them what I think and I'll ask him for his opinion, and usually I'm on the right track.

Yes, and that grumpy people thing certainly holds true. I remember all throughout my childhood that dinner discussions were always centered upon my mother's work environment and how someone wasn't being responsible, or that she was doing the work of several people, or that someone had behaved in a strange way. EVERY. NIGHT. IT. WAS. THE. SAME. F'N. STORY. And she worked at more than a half dozen jobs over those years.

[formflier]

I'll add that in addition to being deliberate... .it's important to "conitinue on" when they do something weird or sabotage like.

Not that there should be no consequences... or it never comes up... .but... .


You two plan to go have a nice breakfast... .he decides to be a grumpy azz and (fill in the blank)... .wish him well and go enjoy the breakfast you planned to have.

Obviously... assumes the issue is "not-legitimate" or "regular BPDish stuff".

FF

[flourdust]

I'm not saying there's no hope for improvement on his part, but it's not in my ability to change him, nor is it my business. I'm not seeing in polarities--like there's no point trying to make things better or wanting the unrealistic romantic dream of the first blush of getting together.

Hmm. I think you've reverted back here to a defeatist cycle -- you want something different, but that requires him to change, and you can't make him change, so nothing will probably happen.

Let's break that down.

You want something different -- this is valid and reasonable.

But that requires him to change -- this is prescriptive and closing off other avenues. Maybe you could make changes, to how you relate to him, to how you structure time with him, to what your expectations are -- you've taken some steps in this direction already.

You can't make him change -- most likely true, but you can influence him and you can rearrange the environment of your relationship as described above.

So nothing will probably happen -- again, jumping to a defeatist conclusion where you are powerless. You do have power. You can make some thoughtful changes as described above. You aren't in crisis mode, so you have the space to experiment, assess, adjust, and so forth until you find something that works. Or you can take steps to end the relationship or build a fulfilling life for yourself outside of it. If none of those things happen, that's not your husband's fault.

Again, back to how this discussion started -- you've said a lot about your current situation, and you've talked about what you want to be different. You still haven't tackled head on the heavy lifting of what you are willing to do to make things different.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy, yes, you are right that I'm disappointed. And I'm realizing that's OK and I don't need to push that feeling away. There are lots of wonderful benefits to me about this relationship, so it's definitely not a black/white issue. So I sit with contradictory feelings and that's all right. Shades of grey seem to be my strong suit!  

The two most important relationships with men in my life were both hurtful. My H painted me black early on in my marriage and then eventually decided not to.  My father joined my mother in her anger at me. I also don't want to be "poor me"- these men also have been good influences in my life and done tremendous good for me and the children. I think I had to accept that people are just who they are- both with strong points and not strong points. Maybe I was too trusting or idealizing or looking for the impossible.

I have read the idea of marriage as a crucible- designed to make us grow. I have to say that it certainly did for me and I think for the better.

My dad also joined my mother in her anger towards me and at that point, I felt totally adrift from my family. It was at that point that my ex-husband showed up in my life. If I'd had a more stable relationship with my parents, I wouldn't have been so susceptible to him. It was really disappointing to lose my dad's love because he was very close to me when I was younger and was a normalizing influence in my life.

And if not for my ex, I probably wouldn't even be on this forum. My current husband certainly has behaved strangely and inappropriately at times and he's quick to get upset about minor issues. That said, having grown up with dysfunction, I probably would have largely ignored much of his acting out, if I hadn't had my BPD tolerance overextended in my previous marriage.

On a different topic, I was reading a thread about a woman who was dealing with a very difficult narcissistic soon-to-be ex-husband. A therapist told her to validate, validate and never criticize or do anything that might appear critical toward him. In that way, she could keep communication open and perhaps even influence him somewhat.

Hearing this, she bristled at the approach, but after a lot of explanation and finally understanding the situation she was dealing with, she tried this approach. It saved her from any court appearances through the divorce and now she's been coparenting for over seven years. According to her, it is unpleasant at times, but it works to diffuse any conflict she has with her ex. (Means justify the ends.)

Since I read that, I've been trying to avoid any appearance of being critical and give unconditional acceptance to my husband and it's been truly amazing how much better things have been between us. It makes for more artifice on my part because I have to censor some  of what I say. Apparently I am quite critical and I can joke about that with my friends, but even the hint of disapproval tends to trigger him (even if it has no relationship to him).  

For example I might say that I didn't like a particular brand of salsa. If that's the salsa he bought, then he interprets it as a criticism about him. Now that I know that, I have to introduce some mitigating language if I've committed such a slight: "They must have changed the recipe on this salsa. It's not as good as it was in the past." Mostly, I think I'm learning not to let casual critical remarks slip in his presence.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll add that in addition to being deliberate... .it's important to "conitinue on" when they do something weird or sabotage like.


Yes. I've started doing this and it really makes a difference.

Previously, I'd try to "talk it out" which is absolutely the worst approach. It made things go downhill very quickly. Now I just keep moving on and ignore the minor stuff and use it as an opportunity to do something I want to do that gives me pleasure. I'm finding a great deal of joy in doing housework or laundry when I need to avoid a grumpy spouse. I get things done, it makes me feel good and I don't go for a swim in the BPD swamp.

[Cat Familiar]

You want something different -- this is valid and reasonable.

But that requires him to change -- this is prescriptive and closing off other avenues. Maybe you could make changes, to how you relate to him, to how you structure time with him, to what your expectations are -- you've taken some steps in this direction already.

You can't make him change -- most likely true, but you can influence him and you can rearrange the environment of your relationship as described above.


Good parsing of my thought process, flourdust. Yes, past performance doesn't guarantee future results. I'm the one who has control over me and I can change and through my changes, influence the world around me. (When feeling forlorn, it's easy to forget this.)

You aren't in crisis mode, so you have the space to experiment, assess, adjust, and so forth until you find something that works.


In the years since it occurred to me that my husband has BPD, I have built a really nice network of close friends with whom I can say anything. I had hoped that I'd have that relationship with my husband of being able to fully be myself, but that doesn't appear auspicious.

However, now that I've stopped the conflict, I am being a bit more experimental about being more "myself" around him, knowing that I can cool things down if I notice him starting to get upset.

I liken it to training my young horse. I will push her to do things that may be a bit difficult for her and I know when she is starting to get agitated, so I immediately have her do something that she's comfortable doing and I praise her. Over time, it builds her confidence so that she's more willing to try something more difficult and perhaps frustrating because she's scared or unsure.