What message do you guys "read" in this email

[formflier]

(FF name is misspelled) please start depositing $1,000 a month into my checking account or into the (bank name of inactive joint account) and then do not spend it. We need money to buy groceries. I understand that you are gone but w the kids and Istill need   to eat here. The girls still need night nights,we need toothpaste we need food we need gas. They are your children I am not asking you to provide for me but you need to be the dad, a man and provide for your children.


I got this at 3 or 4 am.   not signed and yes... .she misspelled my name.  For example... .if my name was Zackary and she spelled it Zachary kinda thing.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FF, I'm sorry about that late-night email message, which I can see was upsetting to you.  Let me ask you a question.  I may be way off-base, but could it be possible that she has a drinking or substance abuse problem?  LJ

[byfaith]

Hi FF,
Sorry that you are having to deal with this. Has something changed as far as how much she is usually getting to spend? In other words are things getting tighter? And then she blames you through messages such as this?

I would get messages like this over various subjects when she felt like she was not in control or had to make adjustments she didn't want to make.

BF

yes she would misspell my name also. It would always get spelled A$$hole. 

[formflier]

Hey FF, I'm sorry about that late-night email message, which I can see was upsetting to you.  Let me ask you a question.  I may be way off-base, but could it be possible that she has a drinking or substance abuse problem?  LJ

I would be shocked to find out drinking or substance abuse is the issue... .or a issue.

99.9% guarantee it's not drinking.  She rarely takes pills and physically... .is "above average" healthy.  

So, it's not like she regularly takes pills for various conditions and could be addicted.

Big picture:  Middle of the night written communication with misspellings is usually done with she is worked up or dysregulated.  The "style" of this one suggests to me this was a "mild" dysregulation.

FF

[formflier]

Hi FF,
Sorry that you are having to deal with this. Has something changed as far as how much she is usually getting to spend? In other words are things getting tighter? And then she blames you through messages such as this?

I would get messages like this over various subjects when she felt like she was not in control or had to make adjustments she didn't want to make.

BF

Oh yeah... .

Perhaps a month ago she overspent out of the joint account and bounced a few things.  That was our last remaining joint account.  She claims I "tricked" her into overspending by letting her know how much money was in there and her spending limits.  Since I had sent a text and an email at different times during the day, she claims that was a trick.  Both said money was tight and please coordinate with me PRIOR to spending because several mortgage payments were pending and it appeared there was more money there than was available.

So... .she goes and spending and withdraws case adding up to way more than one of the mortgage payments for a tool cabinet that she says I had agreed to let her purchase.

In truth... there was an email where I said that was a great idea and we should decide together when there was enough money for that purchase.  I further indicated I believed it would be "several months" before we would be at that point.  She made the purchase a few weeks after that email. 

Soo

To "take her at her word" and "solve" her being tricked I proposed a new procedure.  There would be a bank card tied to an account that only she would spend out of.  We would decide on purchases and then I would transfer money to that account with an accounting note on the transaction as to what it is for. 

If she sees the transfer and the "purpose" she is cleared to spend.

Oh... .and I started off the proposal with scripture about providing for my family.

She threw the paper and card at me and has said then... .and since then... .she doesn't want my money... .she doesn't need my money... .she won't take my money and that she would fill out the papers to remove herself from this one remaining joint bank account.

Which she didn't do.

So... I make sure the account stays at zero bucks.  Closing the account would be disastrous from a record keeping perspective. 

FF

[enlighten me]

Hi FF

I had very similar off of my ex wife. Demanding more money and using my sons to try and guilt me. In my opinion she had a few things going on. One she wanted to punish me, two she was broke and wanted an easy way out and three she was getting pressure from her fiancé to get more money from me.

[Tired_Dad]

FF,

Is she working at this time and able to meet the baseline expenses of maintaining a household?

I ask this to get up to speed with your situation and as a potential caution against being further painted black as a "manipulator" though financial means.

With my wife, who has serious financial issues, I found that early on I had to take complete financial control of our joint money if I wanted to have any hope of a future retirement and to this day I am the person that will "cut checks" for major purchases and I keep all of my personal and joint bills and accounts paid and up to date.

I have my paycheck deposited to an individual account that she does not have access to and have set up automatic transfers for a dollar amount that we agreed upon for her incidental spending and food. I have her put her fuel on our joint credit card as works best for me and the limit on that card is low so she can't go and run it up if she gets it in her head to do so.

The bottom line was to ensure that in no way could she ever come at me legally stating that I was trying to manipulate her financially and that if things go on course that I can demonstrate before a judge that I have materially provided for her and the family and hopefully that will have some play in a custody situation or in the division of marital property.

[Sunfl0wer]

Maybe she senses a change in you?
You recently got declared disabled by social security.  Not an easy feat!

This, imo, seems a direct challange to that “reality”as she moves forward asserting her own reality.

She is saying: Your role is to be a financial provider.
She has never accepted another reality.

She is pushing for u to put money into an account, or else she will claim victim status.  

She cannot tolerate YOU being a “victim” via not “having to” fulfill a role she in her reality has designated for you long ago and is FIXED on firmly.

By not putting money in... .
She will the allow herself to donn her victim badge, thus effectively regulating her perspective and emotions via this method.

Maybe she is wanting to pin this down on you before pastors renigg their stance on saying yo should be a huge financial provider.

She feels entitled to all monies she earns via her job and does not feel she should have to comingle her monies... .as... .she is permanently “the entitled on.” (Not you!)

U did ask for brutal honesty right?

The disability status has been a point of ongoing tension between u too.
She does not want to hand you a “win.”

Now is there a way for both realities to exist?

[GaGrl]

So here's my guess... .

All went well with her "not needing your money, not wanting your money, etc. etc. etc." for awhile.

Now she has either spent too much or has decided she wanted something (for her or for the children, doesn't matter -- like the tool chest), and she has realized she doesn't have the $$$ to buy it.  So rather than reflecting on what she spent to put her in a situation of buying an item she wants, she is deflecting to the perceived reason she is lacking funds -- you, and your financial arrangement since the last brouhaha.

What are you thinking your response will be?

I'm thinking that something along the lines of "I am happy to sit with you and discuss the monthly budget for household needs and how I will move funds to a household account for you to manage.  When can we do that?"


You have never denied her household money.  It's just a matter of how much and how paid, right?

By the way, has she been spending time with her sister again?

[formflier]

Yes time with sister.

Anytime she has ever asked me to run to the store and get... .whatever... .it would be rare for me to say no.  I often still get groceries... toothpaste and stuff.

I pay all utilities, mortgage, insurance, cell phones...

I have no idea what percentage of groceries I spend... versus her.  IMO... she buys a bunch of "crap" groceries... vice "real"... .fulfilling food.  She does by good food as well.

I'm travelling a lot with a real estate project and helping care for my Dad. 

What I don't do is give her money to spend... .or give her money contingent on some agreement.  She doesn't keep agreements.

She doesn't know... yet... about Social Security and my talk with pastors
 
I suspect some kind of joint meeting the future... perhaps a couple weeks.

Did I answer all the questions? 

More later.

FF

[flourdust]

There's a long history about money here. You both have times of anxiety about how the other person is spending or controlling money. One of you makes a move or countermove. There's no real collaboration, just a series of preemptive strikes and ultimatums.

I don't know that I would expect any more constructive communication around money, because there's no history of it.

Anytime she has ever asked me to run to the store and get... .whatever... .it would be rare for me to say no.  I often still get groceries... toothpaste and stuff.

This would make me feel very controlled. I can't go buy toothpaste; I have to ask the boss for toothpaste.

Nothing is going to change here until a different approach is tried.

[formflier]

Just to be clear... .she has a job... her own separate account and can go buy whatever she wants... whenever she wants... without asking me.

Over the years (since 2009)... .we have tried umpteen different approaches and she has abrogated all the "agreements" or "rules"

Honestly... .the only approach that we haven't tried... .Ever... in our marriage... .is the one we are just starting where she has her money and I have mine.

I have ALWAYS had to ask to spend "hers"... .she has had to ask to spend "mine" for about a month now.

Just to clarify... .

To put it in dollars and cents... .she has "misspent" about 40 grand total since 2009... .in various chunks... .all of which she "reconciled and promised to do better and keep a new agreement... .which she never kept for long.

She has repaid a few hundred here or there for smaller indiscretions... .but nothing significant.

If we ever "reconcile" our relationship in total, then I would be willing to share my money with her again.  I'm not willing to share my money again with her as a matter of goodwill to "help" reconciliation.  I've done that many times... .money left... there was no reconciliation.

Just so you guys know...

She can feel controlled... she can blame... whatever.  She gets to experience the results of her decisions... .and my agreement with those and my unwillingness to "undecided" (poof... because she wants it).

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I suppose I expect your wife may likely always feel entitled to more, financially, no matter what the arrangement is.

I expect this to intermittently continue to be a topic of conflicting values between you both.

How about RA?

Then a plan to respond or not respond?

... .
So seperating monies... .
Simply means she does not spend what she does not have access to.
Does not resolve you two from having conflicting values here.

[flourdust]

So nothing is going to change.

[formflier]

So nothing is going to change.

Nothing has bounced or been spent without us both agreeing... .like was happening before.

That is a change.  I think it's positive.

She can certainly try to continue to use this as an area of conflict, but she has much fewer tools available at her disposal.

Flourdust,

I do get your point... .there are fundamental differences here, that is not going to change, unless "she comes back" to what we did for most of the marriage.

And it's things like "keeping your word"... stuff that I'm not ok with "compromising" on.

Thoughts?

Anyone see another alternative?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

One consideration for a response may be... .

Grocery and other monies are part of a bigger family budget.  How grocery and other monies gets spent needs to be considered together.  I am happy to discuss finances and budgeting with the help of a financial advisor. 

My guess is, any financial advosor is going to put her frivolous spending to scrutiny... .expect her to pay for more bills.

Kinda thinking... .it could simply be kind to offer under what conditions you are willing to discuss this.  (Otherwise, it could seem... .”neglectful.”)

Also, this would put the ball in her court, express ur stance... then it is up to her if she is determined, can find a fair advisor.

[flourdust]

that is not going to change, unless "she comes back" to what we did for most of the marriage.

Anyone see another alternative?

"Things won't change unless she changes. I'll be over in the corner holding my breath."

The fact is that neither of you are changing. Perhaps you're both holding your breath, waiting for the other person to exhale first.

[babyducks]

FF,

I strongly suspect that you don't actually need us to tell you anything.   No one here is going to tell you anything you don't already know.    This is what people who suffer from a mental disorder do.   They become overwhelmed,  impulsive, have trouble connecting the cognitive dots, invite some one on to the drama triangle, become angry, lash out.    Resolution is either very difficult or impossible.

I also strongly suspect that she isn't going to suddenly say "FF, you are right, this is going to be the issue that brings me clarity, let me try it your way."

I am sorry that she's not either able or willing to work with you on this.   It has to be tough.   

She can certainly try to continue to use this as an area of conflict, but she has much fewer tools available at her disposal.

so a couple of thoughts.   

First,  I don't think she is using anything.    Certainly not like a tool.    This is what people who have mental illness' do.   Is it intentional, deliberate, conscious?    If we say that, what are we truly saying?   Which come first the chaos within or the conflict with the external?   I am going to advocate for the idea that the chaos within comes first.   

Second, you can continue to remove tools that are available for her.     and regardless of intention it's going to come across as punitive, controlling and part of the drama triangle.

Third,   you are never going to pin her down to a strategy that works 100 percent of the time, without failure.

To "take her at her word" and "solve" her being tricked I proposed a new procedure.  There would be a bank card tied to an account that only she would spend out of.  We would decide on purchases and then I would transfer money to that account with an accounting note on the transaction as to what it is for

 I don't see any value of offering yet another complex agreement that will fall apart when she feels financially stressed.   I don't see this a good alternative.    I see this as the part of the drama triangle.

I would also guess that you knew the "I don't need your money,  I don't want your money" moment was false bravado and that it wouldn't last.

I would suggest a simple low key response to the email.    a Brief Informative Factual Friendly.   

FFwife,   I can't deposit 1k a month into either account at this time.    I will make sure X amount of dollars gets to Y account for grocery and family needs.    FF.

Less drama.   Less drama.

'ducks

[formflier]

"Things won't change unless she changes. I'll be over in the corner holding my breath."

The fact is that neither of you are changing. Perhaps you're both holding your breath, waiting for the other person to exhale first.

Umm... .I'm listening.  I see it differently. 

What would it look like for me to change in the area of finances?

I would allege that I am the one that has changed I the most in the area of finances, especially over the past year.

I used to think it was my "duty" to push for reconciliation... .that is was my duty to "lead" and talk to a point where we got to an agreement that she was "happy" with and she would "agree" to abide by.

Then... I would be shocked an appalled and would hop into my role to "lead" reconciliation again... wash... rinse... .repeat.

Then... .I "changed" and started doing boundary enforcement... .less reconciliation... .although the offer was on the table... .I did less and less "gymnastics" to make her happy.

The last incident ended things financial... .because there are no more boundaries that I control.  I've offered reconciliation... .she says no because I 'tricked" her into doing wrong... .therefor... it's not her fault (or something like that).

I don't argue with her reality anymore... .so... she see's it her way... I see it mine.

I am genuinely interested in your view of what has not changed... .or what you are picking up on.  Because... one of my goals is to do things differently than a year or two ago.

FF

[flourdust]

I agree with 'ducks on this: less drama. To this, I'd add: less control. Also: better communication. Not necessarily more or more detailed or coming to agreement -- just better.

Those are good goals -- how do you get there? This may require that you go against your normal instincts.

[AskingWhy]

FF, from my own perspective, I would start segregating finances now.  And it's better late than never.  You need an account of your own if you don't already have one.

That you are married and have commingled finances, do you really want your wife destroying your financial integrity when she dysregulates and overspends?

Years ago when I first married UBPD/UNPD H, we had joint accounts. I had a stable job as did H.  We pooled our finances into a joint account.

As a new bride, I took it upon myself to buy a really nice outfit to impress him when we went out.  I surprised him wearing it and his remark was, "So--how much did that cost me?"  He did not say, "You look so great in that!" or, "How beautiful you are!"  Only a reference to money.

For a child, what is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine.  Toddlers are very greedy, and the pwBPD is just like a child.  That was the beginning of my suspecting that something was seriously wrong with H.  H was regarding all of the money I earned as solely his.  I did not like that at all.

Shortly after that, I arranged to have my own accounts for my own purchases.  I have never regretted it.

Part of boundaries is looking after your own interests and not being subsumed in codependence.  

Try not to put much into the misspelled name.  People using keyboards and keypads makes mistakes.  As a formflier, you have exacting precision and awareness of a need for correctness. I imagine in your job a lot of redundancy takes places to assure safely.

[Cat Familiar]

FF, you are between a rock and a hard place in part, due to the religious structure of your marriage.

You're supposed to be the leader, according to your church. She says that she wants that, then she thwarts your leadership.

You try to set fair parameters and she abrogates your rules.

It seems the financial area is an arena for her to act out and getting her to come to agreement is fruitless because she will refuse to abide by whatever plan she has approved.

I think the easiest way to deal with this is to do whatever you want, since you're the leader, and know that she will violate any rules you have in place. So, better not to have any expectations of her behaving within the terms of any agreements.

I dealt with a similar intractable situation with my husband. His alcohol abuse was driving me crazy and I tried all sorts of "interventions" with the only result of failure on my part and increased conflict. So finally I said to myself, F* it! He can do whatever he wants.

Now, he's self-regulating. Granted, he's drinking more than I think is healthy. But it's no longer a battleground between us and he can't use it as a way of "defying mommy" which is what I suspected he was doing.

[formflier]

So, better not to have any expectations of her behaving within the terms of any agreements.

So finally I said to myself, F* it! He can do whatever he wants.
 

Yeah... .this is my understanding of RA... .  It's also my understanding of where I have taken a long time to get to and was likely the source of my deep sadness and grieving after the last "joint" financial account ended (technically it's still open)... .which resulted in the letter... .which resulted in my grieving... .which has gotten me to a F* it place with regards to this.

While I certainly don't want to ever say I have RA down pat... .I don't... .I see it as more of a continuum or a deliberate process to "remind" myself of who or what I am dealing with here.

Managing money together seems "intractable" to me.  That's really the first time I'm thought about or used that word.  I'm going to try that word "on for size" for a while... .it seems appropriate.

FF

[Fian]

Is this something you really need to solve?  I remember you saying before that she complains about something, you offer to meet with her to discuss it, and then she never takes you up on it.  She just needed to vent at that time.  Maybe you can try something similar here?  Agree with her that it is important to you that your kids have their needs met and ask her when she thinks would be a good time to discuss in more detail how the 2 of you can ensure that they do not go without.  There is a good chance she will never come back to you with a time to meet.

[Grey Kitty]

What do I read into the email? A manipulative demand for money from FFwife. [Note it was at 3am, probably when she was anxious/dysregulated and unable to sleep... .the sort of time of day she would have woken you up for a fight in prior years]

If I recall correctly, over the last ~decade or more, your history with FFwife and things financial goes like this: She is usually reasonable, but then after a bit she gets dysregulated and/or manipulated by her FOO, and then does something which is a direct violation of your trust regarding money. (Murky as to whether it qualifies as theft or not). You (eventually, after much soul searching) decide to protect yourself by separating (more) of your finances from her and her FOO.

You've repeated this until there is no joint money left, and she's demanding money.

My suggestion:

Give her NO money with the expectation that she will spend it on your children or household in a way you approve of.

If you want to give her money, accept that she could pass it along to her FOO, or use it for gas to drive off and drop your kids with her relatives for a week against your plans, and against any agreements she may have made with you, or on a lawyer against you in some way.

If you want to give her $1000/month with no strings attached do so. Or not if you don't.

Don't give her money under any agreement (spoken or unspoken) that you expect her to honor.

[MaroonLiquid]

I agree with GK here.  If you guys remember, my ex used to demand money all the time and she left me.   . Out of FOG, I did it and boy was that a mistake. 

[formflier]

  that you expect her to honor.

Hmmm... .seems like perhaps GK made this point to me once before... .

Or... a million times... .my brain is a big foggy on this.

Yep... .zero chance I will hand anything over like that, especially by creating a "structural" agreement of some sort.

We just spent a nice day together with the family.  This was never mentioned again.

FF