She's trying to pull me back in

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Things have been going in the wrong direction for months but last Thursday night I said to my wife that unless you:  (1) start going back to our marriage counselor, (2) seek help for your mental health issues, and (3) seek help for your drinking problem then I am going to see a lawyer to start the separation process.  Her response back to me was FU (and, unlike the Odd Couple, her name is not Felix Unger).  That night she was angry with me and told me to go sleep in the guest room, which I did.  She yelled at me for a while which I am used to and it doesn't matter as much since I now see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I don't worry about the damage that the conflict will do to our r/s since I see it as being over.

I called a lawyer on Friday and she (the lawyer) was not able to meet until Monday (today). 

Over the weekend uBPDw was very affectionate to me, more than in a very long time.  We didn't talk about separation much but she did say did I really want to go through with it and I said that I think that I have to.

She continued to be very affectionate - we slept together and she snuggled up to me a lot.  She was also very nice to me over the weekend, nicer than she has been for a very long time.

I am resisting her affection, as I know that she does not feel like there is anything wrong with her and there is no need for her to change.  But I can't continue the way that we were going, it is very bad for me and I think it is not a good environment for our two d.  If she truly were committed to change then I would give it another try but for years I, and everyone else close to her, have tried to get her to realize that there is something wrong with no avail.

This seems like normal BPD behaviour - have other experienced this as well?  Once you are starting to separate that your pwBPD tried to pull you back.  I am also waiting for the inevitable backlash that will likely come soon, especially once letters from lawyer, etc, appear.

[polaris9]

Things have been going in the wrong direction for months but last Thursday night I said to my wife that unless you:  (1) start going back to our marriage counselor, (2) seek help for your mental health issues, and (3) seek help for your drinking problem then I am going to see a lawyer to start the separation process.  Her response back to me was FU (and, unlike the Odd Couple, her name is not Felix Unger).  That night she was angry with me and told me to go sleep in the guest room, which I did.  She yelled at me for a while which I am used to and it doesn't matter as much since I now see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I don't worry about the damage that the conflict will do to our r/s since I see it as being over.

I called a lawyer on Friday and she (the lawyer) was not able to meet until Monday (today). 

Over the weekend uBPDw was very affectionate to me, more than in a very long time.  We didn't talk about separation much but she did say did I really want to go through with it and I said that I think that I have to.

She continued to be very affectionate - we slept together and she snuggled up to me a lot.  She was also very nice to me over the weekend, nicer than she has been for a very long time.

I am resisting her affection, as I know that she does not feel like there is anything wrong with her and there is no need for her to change.  But I can't continue the way that we were going, it is very bad for me and I think it is not a good environment for our two d.  If she truly were committed to change then I would give it another try but for years I, and everyone else close to her, have tried to get her to realize that there is something wrong with no avail.

This seems like normal BPD behaviour - have other experienced this as well?  Once you are starting to separate that your pwBPD tried to pull you back.  I am also waiting for the inevitable backlash that will likely come soon, especially once letters from lawyer, etc, appear.

[ForeverDad]

So the way to reduce the conflict is to threaten to leave?  The problem is that her way to win you back won't last.  Her ever changing moods and perceptions are likely to resume all too soon.

I know that she does not feel like there is anything wrong with her and there is no need for her to change.  But I can't continue the way that we were going, it is very bad for me and I think it is not a good environment for our two D.  If she truly were committed to change then I would give it another try but for years I, and everyone else close to her, have tried to get her to realize that there is something wrong with no avail.

You're right.  She won't change, well, unless she decides to change.  And that means meaningful therapy and diligent application for years.  So change is up to you.  As much as we want to keep the family together, if it is that dsyfunctional then staying together is unhealthy too.  As much as we hate the thought of a divorce, it will allow your parenting, your parenting time, to be in a stable home not overwhelmed by chaos and flying monkeys.

[livednlearned]

Part of the reconciliation dynamic is that she (likely) resents weakness or neediness in you (even as she may drive you toward those states of mind).

Now that you are being firm and strong, this is attractive to her -- you are also pulling away and that creates some safety from an emotional perspective. Some people with BPD have a fear of engulfment, as well as a fear of abandonment, in response to how emotionally close or distant you are.

If you were to return her affection and relent on what you say is in the best interests of the marriage, she will probably return to default behavior, unfortunately.

All of this can happen at the same time she gets angry at the boundary, too. Just to make things even more confusing 

Actions are important in BPD relationships. And to help you, it might be worthwhile setting deadlines, and thinking through how you will measure whether the boundary is working.

For example, let her make the appointments. If you feel some urgency to this, give her a date by which you will consider her serious in making attempts to heal the family.

And remember that the less of a doormat you are, the more she is going to find you attractive, which will increase the more you emotionally and physically exit the relationship.

[polaris9]

I have had enough and the process is in motion.  The separation will become official in the next day or two.

Anyone have any suggestions on what to say to her?  The lawyer said to tell her on the day that she will be getting a letter from my attorney and then the attorney will send the letter via email and courier.  Should I say anything else?  We will still be living in the house together for the time being - my lawyer told me not to leave, and I don't want to as I don't feel she is capable of looking after the kids and maintaining the household.  And I doubt that she will be willing to leave of her own accord.  I haven't yet figured out how that will be resolved.

IMHO it is clear that she has mental health issues, BPD and perhaps other conditions as well.  And she has an alcohol problem.  This is clear to every around her - except herself, of course.  So do I say anything other than "I really hope that you see that you need help to deal with some issues"

[ForeverDad]

You certainly don't want an explosive incident.  Even if you don't do anything wrong, if the police come they typically remove the man.  Sorry.  Thanks laws and policies like the Violence Against Women Act.

So if she becomes confrontational, don't be alone with her during the shock.  Some have had a friend nearby since many with BPD are less likely to rage when there are witnesses.  Others have had a recorder in their pocket and quietly recorded in case the other was so angry as to accuse them of being the one out of control.  Remember, the police will hear two opposing claims and they usually default to considering the woman to be the 'victim' and let the courts figure it out later.  Documentation to the contrary may keep you from being arrested.  Well, if it gets that bad.  Hopefully it won't.

My story, I called police which triggered the separation.  Well, they eventually drove off with her so probably that's when we separated in her mind.  First, though, they asked me to hand our sobbing preschooler off to her and "step away".  Our son shrieked and clung tighter in my arms.  What child won't go to his mother?  Eventually my recording was heard of her making death threats.  However, I think my son saved me more than the recording did.

[livednlearned]

Anyone have any suggestions on what to say to her? 

I don't know that there's anything you could say to soften the blow. Telling her to go get help is probably not something she can hear right now.

Probably more important is to think through what you want to say to the kids, and how. 

[polaris9]

This will go down tonight as I will tell her tonight that tomorrow she will receive a letter from my lawyer formalizing the separation. 

We will both continue to live in the house, unless she decides to move out or she does something that forces my hand to get a court order to have her removed, so we won't have to say anything to the kids in the short term.  Our relationship will likely get a bit frostier but that may not be noticeable to them as it hasn't been great in recent months.  And we have nannies and babysitters that do the bulk of the childcare from wake up to 9pm.

[livednlearned]

Do you have a safety plan if things get hairy? Maybe she isn't as high-octane as some BPD sufferers are... .so hopefully you will be ok.

One thing about telling the kids. Many of us here wanted to tell the kids with both mom and dad present. Just like the rest of the marriage, this might not work out so great.

When you do talk to your kids, the experts recommend asking them if they have any questions for you. Kids can be pretty myopic and will focus on how the divorce impacts them in a pragmatic way. My son was worried he would have to take his underwear to school because he knew a divorced kid who had to do that. He was also worried about where his toys would be and whether he would have a toothbrush at both homes.

I mention that because most of us focus on how we love our kids, it isn't their fault, which is all well and good. But it overlooks how our kids experience things from their own developmental point of view. I imagine you will have that challenge in different ways with your ASD teen.

I wish you the best.

These are hard days

LnL

[polaris9]

I do have a safety plan in place.  I never know for sure how she will react, but I told her about a week ago that it is over and I am going to a lawyer so she seems to be just waiting for the hammer to fall.  Therefore I don't think I will get an extreme reaction, but you never know.  I didn't want to do it last night since I didn't want to ruin Halloween for the kids.

[Sluggo]

How did it go Polaris?  Did the letter come in the mail?  did you tell her?  Checking in on you. ... .

[polaris9]

It is actually quite bizarre. She got the letter and acted calmly. In fact, in the last few days she has been nicer to me then she has in a long time. But in some ways, I don’t think she comprehends the fact that we are separating. Today she was suggesting what I should get her as a Christmas present.

It isn’t all lovey-dovey as there have been a few instances when she verbally lashes out, but she seems to save that more for emails and texts.

I had planned to sleep in our guest bedroom but there is some work being done in that room so it isn’t habitable until at least tomorrow, so we have been sleeping in the same bed. She has been very snuggly and has tried to initiate sex a few times as well.

My lawyer said that I should not move out, and I agree with that. But I do need a way to start putting some distance between us.

Anyone have any ideas?

[ForeverDad]

Well, I'll be the one to say it... .You are still married and so intimacy is not a strict No-No or violation of boundaries but be the responsible person by ensuring birth control.  You never know, she might be feeling that if you get her - oops! - pregnant then you might decide not to end the marriage.  Don't let her sabotage you or allow things to get more complicated than they already are.

[livednlearned]

Does she have a tendency to disassociate?

[polaris9]

Well, I'll be the one to say it... .You are still married and so intimacy is not a strict No-No or violation of boundaries but be the responsible person by ensuring birth control.  You never know, she might be feeling that if you get her - oops! - pregnant then you might decide not to end the marriage.  Don't let her sabotage you or allow things to get more complicated than they already are.

Well one of the things that she was very upset about is that she wanted another child - but we were getting rather old as she wanted to have the child at about 45 and I am five years older.  But I didn't want any more as I am looking forward to retiring in 10-15 years at 60-65 and I didn't want to still have a teenager at that time.  I also didn't think she was in the right mental state to have another child since her mental health has been going downhill.  And she has also been drinking a lot so I was worried that she wouldn't be able to control that during the pregnancy.  But I was 100% sure that she didn't want kids for the right reason.  In her "rage periods" she would get mad at me and say that she could never forgive me and that she wanted me to have a vasectomy.

We spoke about this in one of the few marriage counselling sessions.  The outcome is that she wanted me to have a vasectomy, which I did a few months ago.  I am fine with that even with the divorce as I am now 52 and really don't want more children, although I guess it could become an issue if I meet someone much younger that wants children.

So if she were to get pregnant that would be rather interesting as well... .   

[polaris9]

Does she have a tendency to disassociate?

Yes, if I am understanding disassociation correctly.  A day or two after her rage episodes she will act like nothing happened and deny that she said certain things.  I wish I had this recorded so that she could see what she is like, although it may not really help her much.

I posted in one of the other forums that I feel like the old Looney Tunes carton of Sam the Wolf (or Coyote) and Ralph the Sheepdog.  They explain pleasantries when punching the time clock in the morning and then beat the hell out of each other all day long.  When 5:00 comes they are kind to each other again when they go home.  That's kind of what my marriage has been like in the last few years as at times she will act like everything his fine and she wants to live a "normal" live together.  But her episodes don't follow an ordinary schedule - instead I am walking on eggshells as I never know when I am going to be attacked.

So now we are kind of living in limbo as we are still all living together.  I feel better because I am not walking on eggshells - I am past worrying whether anything I do sets her off.  I am now doing what I think needs to be done for myself and the kids rather than being subservient to her rages.  But it would be nice to start transitioning into the next phase of our lives.

[livednlearned]

There does seem to be a type of disassociative amnesia following BPD rages that baffles everyone, including them.

Looking back at my ex, I think he couldn't recall the full rage per se, but afterwards, he could see the impacts of it on us, his family. And that would trigger shame and defensiveness, which would lead to anxiety, then self-medication.

With SO's D20, who is bipolar/BPD, she seems to disassociate after intense suicidal feelings, as though the episode didn't happen.

It can feel like whiplash for loved ones, whose emotions don't tend to work that way.

I wonder if your wife disassociated when she received the letter and whether she has fully grasped that you are leaving.

Not that it will make any difference, other than she may process it when you least expect it 

[polaris9]

@lnl - I think you are correct in that she hasn't fully grasped the concept that we are separating.  In a brief discussion early last week she hinted that I could have our existing house and that she would move someplace else.  But she continues to do some minor renovations that don't make sense if she will be moving out.  Again she may be disassociating in this instance.

We haven't yet broached the subject of custody for the children, which I will want, and I think that is when she could get hostile.  She will want the kids but, in all honesty, she really doesn't spend a ton of time with them as she hires caregivers go do the bulk of the childcare when I would prefer to do more of it ourselves.  We have three full-time caregivers plus several occasional babysitters.

[ForeverDad]

My last time in family court in 2013 my lawyer played several phone calls where she disparaged me (magistrate's words in the decision) and played games with exchanges.  One example was No you can't get him early just because you got off early for the holiday, then an hour later demanded I pick him up from her location whereas I had already driven to the official exchange location. Well, in court when quizzed if that was her she stated as though third party, for all 9 or 10 of them, "That's my voice but I don't remember it."

Dissociation is a an educated guess but despite being inclined to believe it isn't fully remembered I also point out that their actions, what they later do and don't do, give strong indication they are aware of what they have done at some level.

[livednlearned]

Dissociation is a an educated guess but despite being inclined to believe it isn't fully remembered I also point out that their actions, what they later do and don't do, give strong indication they are aware of what they have done at some level.

I did a bit of reading when SD20 came into my life because she would seem far far away at times, and at times won't even respond, like she was in a trance. We often have to repeat her name to see if she's present.

The research says 2/3 to 3/4 of people with BPD have some form of disassociation, and severity can range from mild to moderate to severe (to the point of comorbid disassociative identity disorder). The studies I read say that roughly a third experience no disassociation with BPD, and the middle third can experience depersonalization (self is not real) and derealization (world is not real), and experience these episodes more or less as fragments, as though they happened to someone else. They are often triggered by intense emotion, with the disassociation being a coping mechanism.

Apparently, it's one of the traits that can tip off a psychiatrist that it's BPD instead of (or in addition to) bipolar.

It's an explanation, not an excuse.

I know with SD20, the calm part of the disassociation typically meant there was something pretty big going on. I took it as a sign something big was building.

[Panda39]

My thought was there might be some disassociation here but the other thing is that in reality for her nothing has really changed.

You both still live as you always have her day to day life has not changed.  So there might be some denial here too.

Panda39

[polaris9]

My thought was there might be some disassociation here but the other thing is that in reality for her nothing has really changed.

You both still live as you always have her day to day life has not changed.  So there might be some denial here too.

So should I start forcing change?  One thing is sleeping in separate beds, but what else should I do beyond that?  Start spending more time talking to her about our future apart from each other?  I don't want to spend more time out of the house as I still want to be spending lots of time with the kids. 

[Panda39]

I'm not saying you need to do anything at all. 

Just pointing out she might be in denial about the situation. She can't face it so she acts like nothing has changed, and in reality as of right now nothing has changed other than getting a document in the mail. She will have to face facts eventually once things start to change... .a shift in your attitude, someone ends up moving out, future discussions about custody or whatever.

[polaris9]

I do want to start moving on.  I don't know that I am ready to start dating yet but I kind of feel like I am in purgatory right now.  It would be nice to start moving on, and I don't know how long it will take.  Custody of the children will be an issue and sorting out the financials will likely take a while as we have substantial assets. 

[polaris9]

A bit of an update - we had a bit of a disagreement over financial matters last night and she got upset and sent some snarky emails off to both my and her lawyers.  She said that she wants me to move out, but I am not doing that.  We have now agreed to sleep in separate beds.  She seems to now be grasping the fact that we will not be together in the future.

[ForeverDad]

From my own experience and the experiences related here, you won't be ready to date anytime soon.  Several reasons.  For one, you're still married, let this marriage end before building a foundation for the next.  For another, you're going through a very trying time.  You need time to heal, to recover.  As the old saying goes, recovery is a process, not an event.  Seeking out a companion too soon can become a rebound relationship, one where the topic of conversation will end up focusing too much time on the ex.

This is not to say you won't meet someone who turns out to be the start of something wonderful.  I guess what I'm saying is probably best not to seek it out, rather let it happen, if it happens.

[Sluggo]

From my own experience and the experiences related here, you won't be ready to date anytime soon.

I attest to what FD says... .  22 months since I left house and filed for divorce of 18 years... .I still am untangling mentally.  I spent much of my marriage focused on caretaking of my wife and the emotional dysregulation which limited time I spent with my kids.  I am glad I did not get into another relationship and have to mentally be involved in another relationship.  I relish in the reality that I am able to focus on the kids when I have them. 

I think until I am completely comfortable being in my own company, enjoying the time as a single person living by myself without any relationships, is the sign that I would be 'mentally' ready to be in another relationship.   

[polaris9]

Thanks for the feedback.  We are very early in the separation and will likely still be living together for some time.  I don't think my uBPDw is capable of having custody of the kids, although she will fight for it.  She compensates for that by hiring help to babysit the kids from early in the morning until bedtime.

In some ways it will be nice to be single - although this might be kind of selfish.  You don't have to make any compromises as you can do what you want.  But if I am still with the kids 50% (or so) of the time then there still are a lot of attachments.

But I would also like some companionship.  It would be nice to have someone to go out to dinner with, or to go on vacation with.  These are things that I haven't really been able to enjoy for a few years as I was always on eggshells.  Having intimacy with someone, not necessarily sexual intimacy, is important and I miss that.

Even when I go on golfing trips with my buddies there is a 50-50 chance that she would freak out and be lashing out at me via phone calls, texts or emails.  So hopefully that is less likely to happen.

[ozmatoz]

But I would also like some companionship.  It would be nice to have someone to go out to dinner with, or to go on vacation with.  These are things that I haven't really been able to enjoy for a few years as I was always on eggshells.  Having intimacy with someone, not necessarily sexual intimacy, is important and I miss that.

Like many of us, you've been alone for a long time.  I get it.  I live it too.  If someone naturally comes in to your life go for it, life is too short.  I've missed opportunities to spend time with interesting and frankly more compatible people.  I regret not taking a chance as it just puts me back in limbo.  As long as they are aware of what your situation is and are willing to go along with it... .why not? 

Even when I go on golfing trips with my buddies there is a 50-50 chance that she would freak out and be lashing out at me via phone calls, texts or emails.  So hopefully that is less likely to happen.

I can't even go out with her friends husbands without hearing it.  Work trips? forget about it.  I'm not fooled, she'll still text/call and lash out during and after the divorce until she finds a new target.  Attorney has advised me once divorce is in motion if you document the "crazy" you have power to include some protections into the agreement.  If nothing else the judge won't look on it too kindly.  Once you are divorced it becomes more simple in my mind.  I look forward to responding with "Is it an emergency involving the kids?"  Clearly (hopefully) the majority of the time the actual answer is no.

Good luck,
-Oz

[polaris9]

... .I'm not fooled, she'll still text/call and lash out during and after the divorce until she finds a new target.  Attorney has advised me once divorce is in motion if you document the "crazy" you have power to include some protections into the agreement.  If nothing else the judge won't look on it too kindly.  Once you are divorced it becomes more simple in my mind.  I look forward to responding with "Is it an emergency involving the kids?"  Clearly (hopefully) the majority of the time the actual answer is no.

I am expecting the same.  But I feel a lot less stress to no longer be walking on eggshells.  I no longer live my life in fear of not setting her off.  She still lashes out but I don't really care as much as long as it isn't in front of the kids.

[so_overit]

There does seem to be a type of disassociative amnesia following BPD rages that baffles everyone, including them.

My husband never remembered what he had said/done after rages. This is an interesting statement... .I read to him my journal once of things he said to our kids and he was shocked.