Can't get past the guilt/Don't want this anymore Part 2

[ozmatoz]

Sorry to have locked a thread up on everyone and I can't even imagine what rabbit hole I'd be down if it wasn't for this community.  I will be sure to help anyone else in whatever ways I can.

Here is my last post prior to being locked:

My goodness this roller coaster doesn't want to end.  It is so scary how they can twist anything (and usually everything) it something to bash you over the head with.  How can I even be alive if I'm wrong this often?

She's on me again about seeing my therapist.  I wonder if there is a fear here that the T is waking me up to her crap and that I will leave?

The latest drama is over her work schedule.  I have for the 17 years always been the breadwinner by a significant margin as well as had the steady job to hold health insurance (very important for D10 who has health issues). 

She has recently taken a part time job in an industry that she is passionate about and the job has taken a bit more time that she originally expected.  Now normally anyone wouldn't argue about the extra hours considering we just sent D16 off to private school and money is tight.  It used to be 1 day a week (sometimes not) that she would be working late and D10 would need to be picked up from school at 2:30.  Normally my mother and I would take care of this, mostly my mom was glad to help out so I didnt have to leave the office at 1:30 but I have enough flexibility to handle it occasionally.  Recently it became 2 days a week almost every week.  Again my mom would help out and I would jump in when she couldn't.  Now that uBPDw has severed relationships after an argument my mom is no longer allowed to pick up D10 from school.  uBPDw has even written to the school to formally block it.  I am left scrambling.  Recently uBPDw told me she had to "formally" let her employer know if she couldn't do 2 days anymore and had to make sure that I knew it would "hurt future potential".  I had to put my foot down and say I could only do 1 day a week and that was pushing it if I had to do it every week.  I am not a part time employee.

I tried to use this as a wedge to work on the r/s with my parents and said that we could do the 2 days if my mom could help again.  The answer wasn't just a "no" it was "if she decides to contact the schools or try anything else I will seek a restraining order against her"  Yikes!

Now she must have seen my T appointment on the calendar for tomorrow morning and she texts me "How is it that you can only manage to cover the kids 1 day/week but you can still fit therapy in during your work day?"  I replied that its early and easy to go in just a bit late every two weeks, its another thing to leave a half day twice a week every week.  She just doesn't get it.  I cannot work part time.

Her response "Its a bit bull sh--t frankly that you can't make accommodations for my work schedule but you can for your appointments"

I think its BS that she can't realize that without my job we have zilch.  This isnt even an argument that I can win, it just keeps going... .

I don't know where my line in the sand is, but my gosh I must be getting close.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm sorry you are going through this.  I can't imagine the open conflict and getting cussed at via text must be hard, and also upsetting.  It sounds like perhaps you have gotten yourself into a classic argument with an irrational toddler (i.e. pwBPD).  As we all know from sharing experiences here, usually a threatened BPD will toss out logic and reason and can't see beyond her proverbial nose.   And she'd cut off her nose to spite her face while we're doing proverbs.

Lying to my wife to cover my T appointments is the first time I can determine that I consciously lied to my wife, of 17 years at the time.  Eventually, a year or so later, I thought we (uBPDw and I) had established a little more trust and openness and I shared with her that seeing a T might be very beneficial for her, even though she was "fine" and I was the one with problems (her story line).  Part of the conversation, I divulged that I had been to see a T.  My goodness her reaction!  You might have thought I told her that I was sleeping with a stripper, caused global warming, and kicked puppies on the way home everyday.  She held that against me (see a T "behind her back" and still uses it to grind an axe when needed. She also mocked me, the T, and had some unkind words for the process.  She denies this all now of course. Every so often I do tell her that I've got a T appointment, but generally the less she knows, the less is used against me.  I think the moral to the story is that you are your only ally.  

It may be an argument you can't win, but it is an argument you can choose to not have.

To solve the D pick-up dilemma, it sounds like you might want to try more restating, showing understanding, and at least let your wife dump out her anger / concerns.  No JADE will help.


and oh, I don't know what stage you are in right now, but, are you facing separation and divorce?  If so, you should get some structure to who can and can't pick up D, and when, etc. You can work out custody before the separation and divorce in most jurisdictions.

[walkinthepark247]

"My goodness her reaction!  You might have thought I told her that I was sleeping with a stripper, caused global warming, and kicked puppies on the way home everyday.  She held that against me (see a T "behind her back" and still uses it to grind an axe when needed."

Sam, I have gone through this same exact thing lately with my uBPDw. There is this constant tension over whether/when/if I'm seeing my T and whether I am "really taking it seriously". When we were attending counseling together as a couple, the counselor asked if we had ever seen a therapist in the past before. I answered yes. My wife flipped out. "I cannot trust you." "you have lied to me about seeing a therapist"(no, I didn't; I've never been asked and it was 5 years before I met you). "This is just one more example of why I cannot trust you". *This is just one more* is her catchphrase.

The fact that I saw a therapist isn't even relevant; but, it matters for some reason. She even started screaming about this. I truly don't get it. I know this isn't the correct response, but I was like "what are you even upset about? The fact that I saw a therapist before I knew your name?" I went to a therapist because I ended a long-term relationship and lost my job / apartment at the same time (not that it matters). Had to move back in with my parents as an adult for a short time. Why am I even explaining it to you people?  It was over 12 years ago!

I was also being berated for not seeing my current T enough. The other day, I made another appt. I told her "I have an appt with my T this afternoon" That just kicked off more drama and vitriol. "Why are you hiding this from me? See, I cannot trust you." Ummm... .You're the one who got mad because I wasn't going enough (according to you).

[ozmatoz]

I've had to hide several T visits from my uBPDw.  Every time she knows I'm going I catch hell.  She tells me I should get a refund because it certainly hasn't helped me be a better person.  uBPDw has even gone so far as to say its a waste of my time because she hasn't gotten anything out of it.  I should be devoting that time to her instead... .

Part of why I'm hanging here on the conflicted board is that while I know there are some specific things that can (and probably should) be fixed I don't believe her behavior will change.

For example Monday night I had my hands full as I walked to the car and couldn't answer a call from her to my cell.  She immediately called back three times as well as sent texts asking me if I was fn kidding and answer her fn call.  I finally got in the car and couldn't even call her back before it rang again (this is all in the span of about 5 minutes).  I pick up and say hello and rather than saying hello, or asking me if everything was ok, or heck even just say she was upset I didn't answer... .no it was in a screaming voice "What the F is wrong with you?  You Fn answer me when I call you.  Don't worry I don't need your help for anything, I fn do it all, like always"  I asked her to not speak to me that way and she hung up.  I called back and asked her why she hung up and she told me "she wasn't going to listen to a lecture and me telling her how or how not to talk to me, she can do whatever she wants."

My T heard this story yesterday during my appointment and just shook her head.  T asked me if I enjoyed being on such a short leash (of course not!).  T also explained that people that have personality traits like this don't get better.  T pointed out that I tried reasonably to put in a boundary by asking to not be spoken to that way my and uBPDw clearly showed that my thoughts or feelings carry zero weight with her and that this is repeatedly happening.

So here I've been stuck on conflicting, we've threatened lawyers and both seen them but don't currently have any retained (she says she does, but she has conflicted her stories so many times I know it to not be true).

I'm conflicted because there were good times. 
I'm conflicted because I'm scared of the scorched earth she'll do if I file for divorce. 
I'm conflicted because my kids don't deserve the hell she'll put us all through.
I'm conflicted because I know I will lose some amazing "couples" friends.
I'm conflicted because I'm still stuck in the FOG, she's all about telling me the things I need to change or work on and all the stuff that is my fault.  She won't listen to anything that I ask for from her, she often tells me that I'm wrong for even asking and need to grow up and fix my sh--t and support her and the girls.  I'm stuck in the FOG wondering what really is and isn't my fault.  I don't want to push forward only to some day realize it I made the most egregious mistake.

Then there are times of clarity like this morning realizing that there is no winning in this game.  She called me after she dropped off D10 at school.  I was still at the house and actually had run to the bathroom quick before I headed out to work.  I know what happens when I don't answer her call the first time so I was scrambling to get the phone out of my pocket in the midst of my business (sorry for the TMI).  When I answered I said hello, and in hindsight it was probably a bit gruff but for no other reason than well... .I was in the middle of something.  So I say hello and she says "forget it",  now I'm perplexed, she says "never mind, forget it, you want to talk to me that way?" then hangs up.  She then texts me a few minutes later that she was "going to ask me to go to breakfast with her, but because I answered with an attitude she's all set".    Wait... .I answered with attitude?  What did she do on Monday?  Maybe I'm crazy or just projecting something here but I feel like she never actually wanted to go to breakfast and just wanted to create one more piece of drama to hit me over the head with... .

Sounds like you both get a vicious cycle of questioning/abuse regarding seeing a T.  I think that is one of the biggest reasons why I've considered divorce.  Why would someone actually fault another person for seeing a T or counselor and improving their mental health?  I often tell uBPDw that I go for the same reasons I try to run and stay healthy.  I do it for her and the girls just as much as for me.  A healthy me is good for everyone!

[SamwizeGamgee]

Your story is causing me to reflect on something I read in "Stop Caretaking the Borderline" the author says, in essence, that there is nothing in your life that you do not create, tolerate, or invite.  I'm stuck in a passive aggressive / waif / walking on eggshells / still married because I don't want to hurt my wife's feelings.  And you're perhaps stuck in a marriage afraid of being cussed out.  I wouldn't stand for one word of how your wife spoke to you these days.  You, who knows, you might not stand for one day of treatment from my wife.  So here we are.

As for seeing a T.  I was taken aback, and I think it was part of my "wake-up call" to reality, when my wife responded so negatively to my confiding in her about seeing a T.  If anything, I think if a friend, and especially my wife, confided in me that they were seeing a T, I would respect that privacy first of all, but, also give support and understanding, and be willing to listen if there was something I could do to support.  I imagine it's like telling someone you are injured, or have cancer or something, we'd expect either privacy or support. Not "how dare you!"

As for why we hang on, and for how long, here's my train analogy.
Imagine you're on a trip in a foreign country.  It's been great although unfamiliar.  One day you decide to take a trip by rail.  You go to the station, get your ticket, maybe stumble around with an unfamiliar language and setting, but, you do your best.  When it's time to board, you make out the signs best you can and head to the right track - or so you think.   You board, and look forward to the day trip.  The train leaves the station, and you look around at the surroundings.  Everything looks great as you leave your city of origin.  You try to follow along on your travel guide and map. Some landmarks are familiar, some are not.  You don't question your itinerary and figure it's just the unfamiliarity of rail travel, and a new contry and all.  As the train goes on from one stop to another, less and less seems familiar.  Only signs for a few city names appear on your map.  Eventually, the realization sinks in that you have boarded the wrong train.  You are now in a completely unexpected part of the country and far away from your intended destination.  What do you do?
While on a vacation, the unexpected and unplanned might just add to the adventure, but, in your life - your one and only life - when it becomes absolutely clear that the train won't turn around, you're on the wrong track, and heading the wrong way - a way towards where you should never be - how soon do you act?
Then what do you do? 
Ride a little longer?
Try to plan something to do when you get to where this train leads to?
Accept the loss and stay aboard?
Or, ask the conductor and start to plan a correction?  (Which includes getting off at one of those stations coming up, by the way). 
Does panic set in that you've already gone too far, and no time can be lost aboard the current train?

No analogy is perfect, but, the idea of the wrong train trip has helped me visualize and ponder my situation.  We still have decisions and options, but, time - like the train - keeps moving.

[ozmatoz]

Your story is causing me to reflect on something I read in "Stop Caretaking the Borderline" the author says, in essence, that there is nothing in your life that you do not create, tolerate, or invite.  I'm stuck in a passive aggressive / waif / walking on eggshells / still married because I don't want to hurt my wife's feelings.  And you're perhaps stuck in a marriage afraid of being cussed out.  I wouldn't stand for one word of how your wife spoke to you these days.  You, who knows, you might not stand for one day of treatment from my wife.  So here we are.

This is an interesting way to look at it, and I may just add that book into my library today.  Some of my friends have said the same things... .They would never allow anyone, let alone their wives speak to them that way.  I've tried to ask her to speak differently and am often told ":)on't like it?  Leave!"  According to my T, I've let her get away with so much that there really isn't much left for her to do other than feel complete control.  I will admit I too don't want to see my wife hurt.  If she came to me in a sane and compassionate way and said "Gee, we really don't work anymore.  Lets keep the kids safety and well being the top priority and work through some things... ."  But no, its a never ending cycle of its all my fault and I'm not good enough and she "can't wait to upgrade me and find a better father figure for my girls"  Anything I do to either right the ship and save it, or swim to shore to save myself is seen as a personal attack "at her expense."  So I back off and retreat to my corner (guest bedroom) and just try to get through a day with as little arguing as I can. 

No analogy is perfect, but, the idea of the wrong train trip has helped me visualize and ponder my situation.  We still have decisions and options, but, time - like the train - keeps moving.

This is great, thank you.  We've all taken a wrong turn (or wrong train) and know the anxiety that goes with it.  Put that into our relationship/life and it is eye opening.  If I were to hazard a guess looking at myself right now I'm past the point of asking the conductor... .She is just full of demands for me and accepting none back from me.  That leaves me in the panic stage of its time to jump off this train, but the thought of the pain and suffering it would entail and hurt for my kids makes me freeze and I'm back to the beginning trying to ride the train longer hoping she'll come around and be open to a two-way conversation.  This cycle keeps repeating, some day I'll have the courage to demand the train alter course or jump...
I love my wife as a person and mother to my children, but there isn't and hasn't been any "real" love between us for years.

Thank you for your input.
-Oz

[ozmatoz]

Well, today is our (hopefully) last visit with DCF which stemmed from her DV arrest back in August.
Waking up a little bit here, but still have some moments where I feel really stuck in the FOG. 

She still firmly believes the entire incident as my fault and even taunts me saying that she hopes I "watch the video over and over and listen to my whiny ass, watch it and live with who I am."

Then this morning I couldn't answer her call (here we go again) because I was unloading my bag because I had just got to my desk.  I called her back right away (mistake I know), but the text has already started.  When I got her on the phone it was more vitriol about how today should be the last day, today's visit is the last obstacle for her before she can get rid of me once and for all.

Here is the part where I'm waking up a little, especially with help from all my new friends on here.  She sent me a screen shot of some text I sent her awhile back saying that I would refi the house and finances to keep the kids at home longer, that I would be the one to tell the kids about divorce.  This was all during a conversation where she continually beat on me asking what I thought I "deserved" for my part in our troubled marriage. I told her I deserved to feel their hurt, I deserved to lose my friends and have my family disgusted with me.  I read these comments now and I'm like... .who was that?  Of course I own parts of the dynamic between us, of course I made mistakes, but man I look at that conversation and it seems like the movies where there is a bad cop that intimidates a confession out of an innocent person.  Her persecution just had/has no end.

She also sent me a screen shot (that she had taken and texted to herself off of my phone) to someone where I mentioned that I was just going through an ugly divorce.  She sends this one back to me all the time saying "Look, here you go!  You're getting that ugly divorce you wanted!"
Well, last time I checked, no one really wants divorce, let alone an ugly one.  I've said until I'm blue in the face about how I just want something reasonable and there is no need for it to get ugly if thats what we end up doing.  Is this her projecting?  She usually replies with some hurt in there that makes me feel like she doesn't want it which of course completely contradicts her statements that she can't wait to get rid of me.  Confused here still.  I can't tell if she's secretly hoping that I fix everything because she still loves me, or if she expects me to fix everything so her life doesn't have to change.  I think I'm lost a bit as her actions really don't show that she loves me anymore but I can't believe anything from her.  Not that it matters much now, I've realized my marital feelings for her have been dead for a long long time.  I've just been stuck in the FOG.

I told her I wasn't engaging in arguments with her today and unfortunately JADED a bit after she told me "not engaging with your family is my specialty".  Its so hard not to JADE after that, I told her that disengaging from arguments with her is not the same as disengagement from the family.  I should know better that she just cannot see the distinction.  In her mind we are all supposed to be "one".

The last text she sent me, which I actually chuckled at a bit.
"You simply are not who I thought you were.  Now that I see who you really are I don't want to be with you.  It's that simple."  Well she sees that I am not putting up with her bs as much and that I'm trying to be my own person.  That I am not giving in to her list of "non-negotiables" even though some of them are ok.  I just can't give her any more ammo to "tell me she was right I was wrong".

I realize now that I am also "seeing who she really is".  I know my parts that brought forth some pain for her but it is definitely not one sided.  I look back now with some clarity on her actions over the years and realize it was only a matter of time. 

I am still struggling though.
Fear of being alone and making a mistake... .I have to deal with this woman regardless, can I actually have a better life away from her?  Fear if I don't get out now will I ever?  What am I missing?
Obligated to make sure my kids stay happy and safe, D16 really seems happy for the first time in a long time, should I just keep dying inside and tolerating so she can thrive.  D10 has health issues and is so sensitive and sweet.  She needs love.
Guilt that I would have to rip the kids from their routine, that our friends and family would be left wondering what happened (they don't know the level of abuse).  Guilt that I know I have my own things I brought to this but gave up on working on because I feel like in the end it won't make a difference.

Thanks for listening.
-Oz

[Fian]

Your story is causing me to reflect on something I read in "Stop Caretaking the Borderline" the author says, in essence, that there is nothing in your life that you do not create, tolerate, or invite.  I'm stuck in a passive aggressive / waif / walking on eggshells / still married because I don't want to hurt my wife's feelings.  And you're perhaps stuck in a marriage afraid of being cussed out.  I wouldn't stand for one word of how your wife spoke to you these days.  You, who knows, you might not stand for one day of treatment from my wife.  So here we are.

As for seeing a T.  I was taken aback, and I think it was part of my "wake-up call" to reality, when my wife responded so negatively to my confiding in her about seeing a T.  If anything, I think if a friend, and especially my wife, confided in me that they were seeing a T, I would respect that privacy first of all, but, also give support and understanding, and be willing to listen if there was something I could do to support.  I imagine it's like telling someone you are injured, or have cancer or something, we'd expect either privacy or support. Not "how dare you!"

As for why we hang on, and for how long, here's my train analogy.
Imagine you're on a trip in a foreign country.  It's been great although unfamiliar.  One day you decide to take a trip by rail.  You go to the station, get your ticket, maybe stumble around with an unfamiliar language and setting, but, you do your best.  When it's time to board, you make out the signs best you can and head to the right track - or so you think.   You board, and look forward to the day trip.  The train leaves the station, and you look around at the surroundings.  Everything looks great as you leave your city of origin.  You try to follow along on your travel guide and map. Some landmarks are familiar, some are not.  You don't question your itinerary and figure it's just the unfamiliarity of rail travel, and a new contry and all.  As the train goes on from one stop to another, less and less seems familiar.  Only signs for a few city names appear on your map.  Eventually, the realization sinks in that you have boarded the wrong train.  You are now in a completely unexpected part of the country and far away from your intended destination.  What do you do?
While on a vacation, the unexpected and unplanned might just add to the adventure, but, in your life - your one and only life - when it becomes absolutely clear that the train won't turn around, you're on the wrong track, and heading the wrong way - a way towards where you should never be - how soon do you act?
Then what do you do? 
Ride a little longer?
Try to plan something to do when you get to where this train leads to?
Accept the loss and stay aboard?
Or, ask the conductor and start to plan a correction?  (Which includes getting off at one of those stations coming up, by the way). 
Does panic set in that you've already gone too far, and no time can be lost aboard the current train?

No analogy is perfect, but, the idea of the wrong train trip has helped me visualize and ponder my situation.  We still have decisions and options, but, time - like the train - keeps moving.

I don't know that a train analogy is a good choice.  You never made a commitment to the train and said until death do us part.  A train cannot move from the tracks, humans are a bit more flexible (although they can still be pretty inflexible).  The train is not serving just you, but all of the customers on the train, and as such cannot make changes in itinerary.

For me, I don't view changing trains as an option.  With that viewpoint, it forces me to make the best of the train that I am on.  While I understand that there can be extreme situations where dissolution of marriage is necessary, I think when you are sort of in/sort of out in a marriage, it can make it easier to not take the next step to make the marriage better since you are not sure it is worth the effort because you are leaving anyway.  As a thought exercise, I recommend for a day/week whatever think about what you would do if walking away from the marriage wasn't an option.  What could you do to make the marriage better, or protect yourself from the damaging actions of your spouse?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Fian - I use the train analogy to look at what should be done after a mistake is made.  Correct it? or, stay on, till death do you part?

Mistakes were made.  Lesson was learned.  We are better, and smarter, for it.  Now what? 

Maybe many do stay on the train, and adapt or change their version of what the trip should be, and where it should go.  But, one has to accept with awareness what cannot be changed - and a mentally ill partner cannot be changed (by us). 

Once becoming aware that you cannot change the mistaken train, tracks, or destination, it is fair and reasonable to exit the train.  It's safe to say I've had days, weeks, years, decades, to think about what I could do if I stay married.  In my case, I decided for about 18 years that divorce was not an option, and did what I could in order to survive, and make the best of it - and only in the last few years have I had a healthier way of surviving.  Maybe I can make it, maybe there is something I can do whilst I remain married.  I do know that we each create our own happiness. 

Oz - I'm so sorry to hear about what you have to suffer through, it must be very painful and even scary to go through that.  I eventually moved out of the bedroom because being next to my wife was giving me anxiety attacks, just laying in bed afraid, no, petrified, that she would start talking.  I sympathize with you.  I'm sorry. 
Be strong in avoiding the JADE response - eventually as you build up the ability to never JADE, you will admire your own strength I bet.  It's worth it when you get to that level of power (over yourself).

[Red5]

@ozmatoz, .reading your post here, and you sound just like me!... .many similarities in both our situations. My u/BPD wife is also extremely hard to "get along" with, she too likes to play games with the damn phone, she really likes to call me up, when I am at work, or riding down the highway, And immediately project on me, and place blame, and then hang up on me, all in about 1.5 minutes... .shazam and wow!… bang just like that, less than two minutes she bashes me over the head with something… I think she must get some kind of “release” from this (?)… it makes me so mad. I also hear the way your wife communicates with you negatively; same same same ole’ with me… my wife is very “authoritative” with me, and my autistic Son (step mom)… And if I dare try to enforce the boundary, or warn her off, then boom… big fight ensues, I am getting better at not JADE’ing however, and have a certain degree of success with SET, ie’ conflict avoidance, but it never last very long… any success is only here and there and sporadic, as of today, I am on day six of the silent treatment (ST)… and she actually has moved out of the bedroom, and into my office “man cave”… And last night, after have said not a word to me, other than one text, she asked me if she could have thirty minutes in our bedroom to bathe and put on her pajamas… So I did this, since she had not spoken a word to me since Wednesday evening, I just looked at her, and then I grabbed up a note pad, and wrote out my response, I wrote “sure”, and held it up to her… and she then gave me this surprised look, like she did not know what to do… ->So<-…  I am going to keep it up, I am NOT going to speak to her, just write her a note/repsnse on my new little friend, the note pad… and I am not going to be the one to end this latest conflab with another apathetic apology… Nope, And like your situation, the “D” had been thrown around many times, and I like you, at his point am completely fed up, love, compassion, and any semblance of intimacy is long dead… I too feel FOG, but I have had it with her, there are too many bad memories of her never ending behaviors towards me… Be strong in your resolve, and take good care of yourself, and your two daughters… Not an easy row to hoe I know… but know that you are not alone.  v/r Red5

[SamwizeGamgee]

Ah, the memories!  My wife is mostly fine acting these days, but, her weapon of default is the silent treatment.  Thankfully she's not verbally abusive like she used to be.  My heart goes out to you guys.  I remember I kind of felt a new freedom when I learned how to trigger her giving me the silent treatment.  That would lead to days or more of inner peace.  I did still need an invisible psychologist on one shoulder and a lawyer on the other so I didn't say something that would show weakness, feeling, or be used against me later.  

[Red5]

I did still need an invisible psychologist on one shoulder and a lawyer on the other so I didn't say something that would show weakness, feeling, or be used against me later.  

Yes, I have an inner "air lock" on my speaker... .I must edit, and as well vet each and everything I am about to say to her (my u/BPD wife)... .I am constantly on guard, waiting to intervene when my Son is close about her, .must keep her way clear, so she does not have a conduit to ignite another baseless rage... .eggshells cover land mines in our home, .but I have most of them "mapped" now... .I have to say, once upon a time, after my first marriage had ended, and I was a single Dad (healing), I used to be carefree, happy, creative, and enjoyed most things in life (freedom), my present wife of seven years has ended all of that, .now I feel like I am on probation... .when I read all the posts here, most if not all rings out to me... .wow... .

There is some very good information here, link from this page/tab; https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111890.0

v/r Red5

[ozmatoz]

I eventually moved out of the bedroom because being next to my wife was giving me anxiety attacks, just laying in bed afraid, no, petrified, that she would start talking.  I sympathize with you.  I'm sorry. 
Be strong in avoiding the JADE response - eventually as you build up the ability to never JADE, you will admire your own strength I bet.  It's worth it when you get to that level of power (over yourself).

I moved out of the bedroom months ago when after a tough vacation she decided to create a literal wall of pillows between us on the bed.  I too would just lay there anxious as hell just waiting for her to open her mouth and start another fight.  I told her I knew I brought a lot of the crap and anger that soured our vacation but that we should discuss it rather than putting up a "pillow fort".  She disagreed and kept putting the pillows up every night.  My T said there is nothing wrong with moving to the guest room.  She seems to be giving you signs she wants space.  This was a bit before we dug in and suspected BPD.  Well you can imagine the abandonment trauma that ensued.  She raged and raged.  I'm still in the guest room (which is fine by me) and she threw that into last nights arguments... .
"YOU left my bed empty.  You chose to leave it.  If you left room for someone else I'm not sure why you'd be surprised when someone else fills that space."  I agreed, I did leave the bed and reminded her that my bed was also empty.  She replied by saying I don't get to come back that leaving was irreversible and irreparable.

This is where she really drives me crazy... towards the end of this argument I asked her why things are always so absolute?  (I know black/white, but I wanted to hear her phrase it)

"I don't trust you.  I don't respect you.  I don't like you.  I'm not attracted to you.  I don't want you in my bed.  I don't want you in my home.  I don't want you in my life.  Divorce!  It'll be the thing I'm most thankful for this Thanksgiving!"

Yet she replied to a text this morning from mutual friends that she'd like our families to go to a Christmas show together mid-December.  I'm riding the crazy train!

Fian  Thank you for the suggestion.  I have been for the last 3 years trying to do what I can because for a time I truly felt divorce was not an option for me.  Around Christmas last year I started coming out of my shell and stopped being a doormat.  I made plenty of mistakes along the way, but I put the emotional bids out there that she asked for.  Dinners, ballet, flowers, chocolates, movie nights with the kids... .most of those thrown back in my face.  Now I'm just no longer willing to do the big things.  It may seem as one foot in one foot out, but its really almost two feet out, I'm just trying to bring in this plane without landing gear and hope for survivors rather than just let it crash.  This is where the FOG keeps me trapped.  I have everything I need in my life, kind children, good job, nice house, nice cars, great friends, but a dead marriage.

Red5 yes, we (like many) seem to be dealing with such similar situations.  I am getting better with SET and not JADE, but she goes from 0-100mph instantly so there is often no time or warnings prior to her getting heated.  I get hung up on in just about every phone call!
I will say that regardless of how well you use the tools, we are all human and there is only so much we can take.  The notepad is brilliant and probably threw her for quite a loop.  ST can be so aggravating, I'm a talker by nature so she knows it pushes my buttons when I try to engage her in pleasantries and she just walks away.  Eventually she tells me she doesn't believe in small talk, only real deep feeling conversations... .which of course if we go there she can't actually handle or want to hear some ugly truths... .  So... .whats left?  No small talk, and you can't handle deep talk?

Thanks for hanging with me everyone.

-Oz

[Red5]

@ozmatoz

“Pillow Forts”

Yes, been sleeping next to body pillows, and “piles” of pillows for years now. Also a little four pound yorkie dog (whom I do love)... .anyways... .Oz, this is my “sitrep” this evening... .as follows;

The time on deck is 21:24, was a good day at work, my Son had a good day at his vocational program, and he and his mentor went for a walk on the beach this afternoon, I arrived home at the usual time, 17:30, .my wife of seven years, whom I have not spoken a word to since last Wednesday, was in the kitchen speaking to my Son’s mentor, as she drops him off about the same time as I get home from work, she acts like nothing is wrong, and if you knew no better, one would assume that all was well in our house hold, small talk was exchanged, as I joined my Son at the kitchen sink, as we unloaded both our lunch boxes... .then the interaction ended, as my Son’s mentor said good evening and departed, my wife immediately left the kitchen, and went off to the office down the hallway, and closed the door, no word was been exchanged between us for eight daze, and today also marks eight daze since she moved into the office, so I carried on, got my Son into the shower, and into his pj’s... .then made his supper, and we made his lunch for tomorrow, brushed his teeth, and then onto his own room for his computer time, .and here I sit, a fire going in the fire place, a mason jar of wine, and I am binge watching “In The Heat of the Night”, the two puppy dogs, and the two stray cats are laying by the fire place hearth... .almost time to put my Son to bed, .I will go to bed at my customary time, being 23:00... .after I check the weather report, I will set the alarm, let the dogs out one more time, and make sure the coffee pot is set for 05:30... .absolute silence about the decks,  and I have to say I am enjoying it, it’s been eight daze, and nothing from her... .I could get used to this (?)... .good night ! v/r Red5

[walkinthepark247]

I'm so glad I revisited this thread tonight. Last night, I left the marital bed for the first time in my marriage. My wife has done it many, many times. She often goes into another room, slams and locks the door. As I explained to her, I just needed some sleep. It's hard to sleep with a big old ball of negative energy next to you. The craziness was coming out in full force yesterday. I am too exhausted to write all of it down. It ended with my wife telling me to go and "screw" my "girlfriend". I wish! <I didn't say that last part>. I have been home each and every night. I tuck my D4.5 into bed every night and read to her. What friggin' girlfriend. The paranoia is getting out of control.

She called me at work today to tell me how she didn't appreciate that I didn't sleep with her. She then asked me to talk about our marriage. When I started to talk, she hung up on me. Fast forward to tonight... .She didn't say a word to me from the moment I got home from work. I even came home early to play with my daughters. I even asked if I could have the last slice of pizza "You want it?" No response, she just stared at the floor. I said I wanted to help give D2 a bath; wife shut the gate in my face. I asked D4.5 if she wanted me to pick her up from school tomorrow. Wife said I was an "idiot coward". I tried to strike up a conversaton yet again in bed. "hey, what you reading? Anything interesting?" No response or acknowledgement. I then said very politely "I am going to sleep in the guest bedroom again tonight. Have a good night".

She waits five minutes and then comes up to the other bedroom. "I want a divorce. You are a coward. See, I took my wedding ring off. I'm ready when you want to come down and talk to me." I simply said that now wasa not a good time to talk. That made her even more enraged. I was cool, calm, collected. I really must thank this board for that. The old "walk" would have caved and gone to her. I just went down to get a drink of water. She has the bedroom door wide open. She expects me to come down and beg. Not this time.

Be good everyone!

[Red5]

@walkinthepark247;

The whole “I want a divorce I took off my rings” =“extermination burst”... .I am in the exact same boat as you, tonight marks day eight of silent treatment, and her leaving the “marriage bed”... .usually it’s me on the leather couch in my man cave, but she is the one who is on the couch now, .I am really fighting the urge to try and break the ice with her, but I am going to stick it out this time, we have not uttered a word to each other in a week now, other that her “asking” if she could have the bath room for a while a couple of days ago, and I used a note pad to respond, I just wrote “sure”... .next week is Thanksgiving and she is once again holding the holidays hostage, .must be some kind of trigger for her, .anyways, take care of yourself, and don’t let this take you away where you don’t want to be... .sounds like both of us have been putting up with this for quite some time... .Let us know how you are doing... .v/r Red5

[ozmatoz]

@walk, sorry to hear about you having to move to the guest room. That’s where I am right now, been here except for a few nights since April!  It’s tough but I found the few times I was back in the marital bed I was filled with so much anxiety waiting for her to explode I couldn’t wait to get back to the guest room.  For the first few months she’d keep coming in to “discuss” something with me until real early in the morning. Now she just leaves me alone. I have the cat and occasional dog keep me company! 

Don’t be so hard on yourself and stick to the the other bedroom until you feel comfortable going back. This is an opportunity for you to get some rest. Of course be wary of the push/pull. She wants to pull you back now, but i can almost guarantee when you try to go back to bed with her either she’ll leave or tell you to get out. Just be ready for that additional game.

I too would often try to use taking care of the kids as a conversation tool. Always got grumped at or told I did something wrong. Now I just tell her what I’m going to do with the kids. If I’m going to get crap anyways I might as well just do what I want. After awhile it’s a bit liberating but she’ll use it against you later.

These boards have been a life saver, great to get advice but also a safe place to vent. Sometimes we need a solid sanity check. I was ready a long time ago for the marriage to be over and then the abuse got ratcheted up and I fell into a deep hole that I’m just climbing back out of now.

@walk & @red, must be the time of year. My wife hasn’t had rings on except when we’ve had doctors or school appointments. I’ve kept mine on at home and around the kids. They know things are tough and that mom is troubled so until we get to the point of talking to them I will leave it on. It’s off when I leave the house.
And yes the ST was broken today for an angry phone call to tell me she was filing for divorce... .again.

@red, stick to the notepad!  If you cave she’ll have taken that control back again.

Stay strong,
-Oz

[walkinthepark247]

Ok, Guys/Gals,

This isn’t as exciting and liberating as I felt last night. My wife sent me texts during the night that she was ready to work on the marriage and asking me to do the same. Laying on the FOG real thick. "I'm in mourning for our marriage". This morning, she comes in first thing to the guest room “Are you ready to talk about this marriage?” I responded that I didn’t think it was the best time. However, I went downstairs and sat on the couch. Luckily, the kids were still sleeping at this point. All types of paranoia came out she “fears for my (her) life” she “fears for the kids’ safety” when I am around. I have “always abused her”.

At this point in the story, I hope you all see how "scared for my life" and "I want to save this marriage" are not compatible statements.

I politely reminded her that I was still wearing my wedding ring and she dramatically took hers off. Her response this morning “oh, I just had a small rash and needed to treat it there”. Next stop: Gaslight. Interestingly, last night (when I wrote the above) she told me she had retained an attorney. This morning: “I am going to start calling attorneys today!” Conductor: We have a brief delay here at Gaslight station.*

After this, I spent some time on the elliptical machine. I then proceeded to make myself a really awesome breakfast bagel (ham and swiss).

I was driving the D4 to preschool today. Wife started the “nobody loves me” <world’s tiniest violin>. I told D4 to give her mother a hug. When she did, Wife said out loud “your father doesn’t love me”. <precious moments with mom; #$%@ my mom says>

D4 and I start walking to the car. We get almost to the car, and I hear yelling behind me "you left the oven on; are you stupid or something". I conjured up Lumbergh from Office Space and said "It would be really great if you could turn it off, mkay."

This is not cute. I’m trying to put together a plan. Advice for documentation? I have called the local Mental Health Services and documented the call. They said they could only help someone who wanted help. Keep in mind that I have two precious young kids at home.

*I'm using that awesome train analogy someone used earlier. I wish I could give the credit. Was it Sam?

[SamwizeGamgee]

[aside] ... .I wanted to change the ring tone on my phone programmed to my wife's number to play Ozzy's Crazy Train.  But, she doesn't call, she just texts... .

Back on topic.  I don't believe you will have to document all the little crazy. You'll end up either looking crazy or going crazy.  From a courts perspective, they see two adults getting a divorce - dissolving a marriage "business."  There are assets and minors involved who need to be divided up and accounted for.  That's about it.  The court won't really care about the bad things mom says in front of kids.  Well, maybe, but if you put it out there, mom will put out all the bad things you do (in her perception) and I'll go ahead and guess that your uBPDw can be quite convincing and persuasive and look like a saintly mom - which will make you look even worse and more petty. 

If, and only if, the safety of the kids is at stake due to mental illness, you - the one suing for divorce -  will not be the one who determines it for the court.  There will be some high priced specialists involved.  So, I would give yourself the mind space and not try to collect 'proof' of her crazy. 

That said, if you do collect details and so-called evidence, it should be mostly to convince yourself to stay the course and get divorced.  It might come up if you get the kids into therapy. 

As for your plan, have you read "Splitting" yet?  It doesn't spell out everything, but it's a good introduction to how things are very likely to go in a divorce / separation from a disordered person.

"All aboard!"

[ozmatoz]

@Walk, yes you have some serious conflicting statements coming from your wife.  Remember push/pull?  One thing that hit me like a ton of bricks was how fast my wife could switch from angry to ST to normal to rage to normal to psychotic and all over again in a matter of minutes.  I think you are starting to realize that too.  Just accept that it will happen.  I drove myself crazy trying to analyze every "switch" to see if I could figure what triggered it.  Save yourself the heartache, I don't believe us nons can ever truly understand unless it was something big like you called her a b--tch or something.

As far as documentation?  Ugh, that is so hard for me too.  I am so tired and really never left alone to scribble or email stuff out.  I find I'm up now at 2am trying to remember the day.  I've cut it down to taking quick notes on what I did for the kids during the day to log that I am involved and anything that she did that was threatening or abusive.  Also any time she drags the kids into an argument I note that too.

Looks like this:  11/12/17 Fed kids, took care of dogs, picked D10 up from school, made dinner, did dishes, vacuumed.   Missed wifes call, on call back was cussed out and threatened to never do that again or else.  Later in night wife called me a POS loser father in front of D10, D10 visibly upset, I did not engage.

Talk to a lawyer, pronto.  They will help with the Fear part of FOG.  Its still tough though.

My deal today was her threatening to get me fired from my job (again) because she feels I value it more than our family.  This is also followed by accusations that she feels I put my job in jeopardy and how dare I risk my responsibilities to our children and risk losing healthcare (vital for D10).  When I ask how getting me fired would be good for the kids she just tells me that it will motivate me to find a better job. She does not want to work (even part time) and when I ask her if there are ways we can cut back she responds no, she actually wants more and better and if I can't provide then she'll find someone who can.  And then tells me this "magical man" will also be a better father than me.

She also locks her car in the garage and has hidden her second set of keys.  She never locked her car before so clearly I have reason to believe she's either hiding cash, or maybe a second phone but I have no way of really knowing.

Unfortunately I think I will have to get a restraining order soon to protect myself at work.  I believe I have enough texts and notes showing a pattern.  Doesn't mean she'll comply but if I let my company know of the RO I'm sure they'll take anything she sends in with a grain of salt.  HR already knows there is trouble at home.

Wish me luck to survive another night.
Good luck everyone.
-Oz

[Red5]

Yes, in a divorce custody scenario, the best welfare of the minor children is at the forefront, if there is an intent for one party to have full custody and primary residence, not a joint custody argreement, then the opposing party must prove the other to be unfit, ie drugs, crime involvement, or outright abandonment as was the case in my first marriage. Divorce is a nasty business when minor children are involved, there are many articles on this website in regards to BPD and divorce; and where minor children are involved.

[lpheal]

I'm just trying to bring in this plane without landing gear and hope for survivors rather than just let it crash. 

I think about this exact same analogy! I even told the attorney I know the plane has lost power and we're falling I'm just trying to land it on the Hudson River.