Negotiated restraining order - rehabilitating a relationship

[Radcliff]

This evening I was just about to make plane reservations to take a red eye flight Wednesday night to see my mother for Thanksgiving, coming back Thursday evening.  A quick out and back, with a different set of friends (call them the T's) supervising at their home for Thanksgiving with my wife visiting with my three daughters, and D19 in charge at home for the few hours I'd be away.

Then, two things happened.  The redlines for the negotiated restraining order amendment came back from my wife's lawyer.  The most major issue is that they said she would do the 52 week course "or another program" recommended by her counselor.  Another indicator of how (not) seriously they are taking this is that they proposed D17 as a suitable supervisor for visits!  Seriously?  A minor daughter who has been living in the abusive household with her mother?  I understand that my wife's lawyer's job is to make life as comfortable as possible for my wife.  So I should expect pushback.  But if there is one issue I would have wanted them to just stand up and do the right thing, it is on the 52 week class.  Trying to dodge it says that my wife is not at all ready to take responsibility.  That changes everything for me.

And then, just a few minutes ago, I picked up D12 at the friends that have been helping us (my buddy and his wife).  Call them the D's.  I wasn't fishing, just asked her how her dinner was and what they ate to make conversation on the way home.  It turns out that Mrs. D was out of the house at a meeting, and Mr. D was in another room helping his daughter with homework, so my wife and D12 had a private dinner together.  Did any parental alienation go on?  I have no idea.  There may be a better than even chance that nothing inappropriate was said.  Maybe a very good chance.  But it has been a very strong theme in our household for the last couple of years, which is the whole reason for the supervised visits.  I had viewed the D's as pretty reliable supervisors.  They got the pamphlet with instructions saying that Job 1 was to make sure the parent and child were not left alone, and Mrs. D acknowledged this to me verbally.  Evidently they are not taking this seriously, and given that they are closer to my wife, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to change.   I'm feeling pretty black and white on this, which is why I'm posting here, since I'd appreciate a reality check.

If I can't trust the D's as supervisors, then the visits must stop (black/white; I'll come back to this).  A sad consequence is that this effects Thanksgiving.  My brother-in-law, who I regard as the best possible supervisor, even better than the D's, was going to be here for Thanksgiving, but recently he told me that he might not, and my wife was lining up the Thanksgiving hosts, the T's as supervisors.  The T's, have been friends for years, but they are very happy go lucky people and are not great at enforcing rules.  I was on the fence about leaving town Thursday with them as supervisors, but reasoned that life is not without risks, and I didn't want to be alone on Thanksgiving and I wanted to see my mom on what is likely her last Thanksgiving.  But the thing with the D's tonight has really thrown me for a loop.  I don't think I can make plane reservations tonight, and it will only get harder to make them.

I was feeling tonight like we may need to go into full battle and litigate.  I know my reaction is emotional, but I want to listen to that voice a little, since my strongest voice is one of optimism that is often naive.  Wise minds will probably settle on a strong corrective message from my lawyer to my wife's to see if they are ready to get serious about addressing the abuse.  But since my lawyer plus me is only two perspectives, and because at least for the moment I'm so emotional about it, I wanted to bounce things off of you to get your thoughts. Two key questions on my mind are whether to shut visits with the D's off abruptly, and whether I can leave town for 18 hours for Thanksgiving.  The actual potential for harm is important, as is the optics of respecting the restraining order and not letting it seem unimportant by my action or inaction.

Thanks,

RC

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[pearlsw]

Hi RC,

Wow. Sorry to hear this piece isn't going to plan as you'd hoped at the moment. I imagine the D's mean well, and despite the pamphlet/rules, they have soft hearts and simply wanted the mom and daughter to be alone. Your wife might have even innocently orchestrated this dynamic. Either way I think on this you have to let go of the illusion of control. These folks are not likely to push back or get between a mom and child. Most people just can't do that. It is sort of natural, despite the order, to want to back off and give people time alone. But the consequences are serious. But you also do have a counselor working with D12 so there is something to counterbalance some of this.

If you can't stop it all is not lost, but I think it would be good to see if you can maintain the stance in your RO on this. It is there for a reason. I remember you saying how she'd get D12 to go along with her ridicule when you'd stand up against the DV. Although it is hard for people to put into practice for whatever reasons... .What would happen if you stopped D12's visits because of the dynamic not being what it is supposed to be? Maybe stopping the visits with a clear reason as to why will cause them to tighten things up so they can get the visits back? This might give the D's the back up they need to get them to more carefully follow the rules. It is probably hard for them to to push back against your wife. If you have legal back up it certainly makes you appear to be in the right which is a big incentive for them to recognize that this isn't about their feelings, that the rules have to be followed.

I'd definitely push back on D17 being a supervisor. That would be a total no go for me if I was in your shoes. No one wants to admit to parental alienation, but you do have some past proof of this happening so it is not like you are dreaming this possibility up. I agree, stand firm on this.

If I've learned anything from watching my h in his legal battles with his ex it is that you go for it and don't let people snatch your rights (and kids) away from you. People can sometimes find it hard to go strong on women in court/legal stuff... .My h could have had his ex arrested for kidnapping his kids and taken the upper hand along the way, and gotten his kids, but once he lost the upper hand she ran right over him. He paid dearly for every small misstep, or time he gave her a break "for the kids", so try not to make any missteps or give up anything when you don't have to. Better to push hard - but just my two cents. It is not that you are inflexible, okay? It is following a set of rules for the long term protection of your kids. Parental alienation can damage them severely and it is worth pushing back on it to the best of your abilities.

[Skip]

Remember, in a negitiation, you ask for something for everything you give them... .

The redlines for the negotiated restraining order amendment came back from my wife's lawyer.  The most major issue is that they said she would do the 52 week course "or another program" recommended by her counselor. 

No biggy. Just have your lawyer counter that you must approve any suggested diviation from the 52 week course.

I wasn't fishing, just asked her how her dinner was and what they ate to make conversation on the way home.  It turns out that Mrs. D was out of the house at a meeting, and Mr. D was in another room helping his daughter with homework, so my wife and D12 had a private dinner together. 

Why not ask that the meetings be recorded and given to each attorney. You supply the equipment.

I don't think it's realistic to expect this to change.   I'm feeling pretty black and white on this, which is why I'm posting here, since I'd appreciate a reality check.

If I can't trust the D's as supervisors, then the visits must stop (black/white; I'll come back to this). 

Its awkward for them to be in the room, so they gave some liberties. Maybe it is a one time thing.

A sad consequence is that this effects Thanksgiving.  My brother-in-law, who I regard as the best possible supervisor, even better than the D's, was going to be here for Thanksgiving, but recently he told me that he might not, and my wife was lining up the Thanksgiving hosts, the T's as supervisors.  The T's, have been friends for years, but they are very happy go lucky people and are not great at enforcing rules.  I was on the fence about leaving town Thursday with them as supervisors, but reasoned that life is not without risks, and I didn't want to be alone on Thanksgiving and I wanted to see my mom on what is likely her last Thanksgiving.

Go see your mom. You are way ahead on this project... .let this play out a bit. Stay diligent.

[Radcliff]

Thanks, pearlsw and Skip for the steadying replies.

I had a good meeting with my lawyer today, and she had answers for all of my concerns.

I'm learning some things about how this is different from negotiating business contracts.  One is delay -- a draft turnaround I'd expect to take a day in a business deal are taking two here.  I can adjust.  The other is that it's apparently OK to make ridiculous requests that I wouldn't do or tolerate in a business deal, requests that have a small chance of success and essentially are just offensive or erode trust.  Perhaps it's because my wife's lawyer has to go through the motions of asking for as much as possible for her client.

I met face-to-face with my lawyer and banged through all the issues.  We started with our draft, and incorporated everything we could accommodate from their draft.  We held the line everywhere I wanted, starting with the 52 week class.  Then we signed it and sent it to them and told them to take it or leave it -- also a move I wouldn't do at work (I do collaborative development projects, not Trump style real estate deals   My lawyer told me that our case is very strong, and that I'm in the driver's seat and should ask for what I want.  I was surprised and reassured to hear that in early February when the lawyers meet next, she doesn't think our case will be any weaker, so I don't have to worry about losing protections.  This is exactly where I want to be -- with my wife in the batterer's course and getting therapy, and the experts helping us to move to unsupervised and more visitation at the right time.  I didn't screen my lawyer for this, but she seems quite good at DV issues.  I said I wanted to be cautious about the behaviors in front of the kids, and she said that those ingrained behaviors won't change quickly.  Good to know that she knows this.

So, it was a good day.  Though I'll have to be prepared for tomorrow not to be good.  My lawyer felt my wife's lawyer would advise her to sign, but we'll see.  I'm girding myself for more turbulence, which is hard to deal with as the holiday comes up.  I'll be so happy if we can get the thing signed and hit a new normal.

Oh, on two key questions, the Friday visit and Thanskgiving, my lawyer fielded those questions without hesitation.  She sent a sharp note about the supervision lapse to my wife's lawyer, and told me not to worry, let the visit go forward.  She said, go visit my mom, and stay an extra day, having D19 mind the house for a day was fine (though I'll supplement with some video cameras).

There's one thing I want to mention, since it has a bearing on advising others.  I am very happy with my lawyer, and it wasn't an accident.  Even though I was never planning a divorce, I interviewed over half a dozen lawyers over the years, and in the most recent search started by interviewing a couple of collaborative practice lawyers and then asked them for a referral to someone who had a range from diplomacy to full combat.  I really wanted to avoid having to make a hasty choice about a lawyer if my wife did something.  I started talking to my lawyer over a year ago, and spent several hundred dollars (maybe 2 hours of her time in one meeting and four calls) over the course of a year, talking to her every three months or so when my wife's threats escalated.  :)uring this time, she earned my trust by knowing her stuff, promptly getting back to me, billing me very modestly or not at all for a couple of short calls, listening to my situation and my goals, genuinely caring and advocating a pro-family agenda, and taking the time to educate me.  In a high stress situation, trust helps make everything work.  We just banged out a draft in person, with me looking over her shoulder in her office.  I think that might not happen with most lawyers and clients.  She wouldn't have done that with me unless I'd been reasonably easy to work with, and I was able to be easy to work with because I trust her.  I guess what I'm saying is that you should "date" your lawyer for a while before you hire her   

Thanks again for the support, I'll keep you posted.

RC

[Harley Quinn]

Just one comment RC.  From reading your latest post to reading the first post I saw about the DV at home, it is clear to me that unless I had read in between I'd think they were written by two different people.  You are more yourself.  This is wonderful to see.  Keep up the fantastic work and have a wonderful trip.  I see great things happening here.  You've really got this by the nuts.    

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Howdy HQ, thanks for your perspective and encouragement.  I know I've said this before, but it means the world to me!  Yes, I feel like I've been through 12 versions of me in the last 12 weeks!  It is a thrill to have some peace to find the real me, though it is lonely as well to be the only adult in a household for the first time in 25 years!  But it is absolutely the place I need to be and I'm grateful to have gotten to this safe place with everyone's help.

Still working on getting the RO amendment signed.  Exhausting to deal with the delays and back and forth.  I had a very good conversation with my brother-in-law yesterday, and it sounds like all of the "extra" ideas that are slowing things down are coming from my wife's lawyer and both my wife and I are ready to have the darn thing signed.  Another nice thing I heard from my brother-in-law is that my wife is actually enthusiastic about DBT, and is lined up for a DBT skills training group as well and feels like it will be useful to her.  (RC looks at the sky and wonders wistfully why it took an RO to get her to this point!   She also is resigned to the fact that she needs to take the 52 week class, and is not fighting it, which was a great relief for me to hear.

I'll let you all know if there's any news.  My fervent hope is that we get this RO amendment signed, and we hit a new normal for a couple of months while my wife and I heal and grow in our separate safe spaces while giving the kids what they need.

RC 

[Radcliff]

Hello everyone,

I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving.  I was able to duck out to visit my mom for a quick trip while D19 held down the fort.  Just before Thanksgiving, we were able to successfully sign the RO amendment, which is a "stipulation," essentially a contract agreed to outside of court between the parties, which then got filed with the court and extends the RO for a couple more months.  My wife and I can communicate by text now about family logistics and kids' things, and can attend kids' sporting events at the same time.  My wife also agreed to start a batterer's program, and to start therapy, with the unusual condition that we both have to agree on the therapist.  

My wife was looking at two possible therapists.  Therapist A has a lot of local DBT experience, but wasn't willing to be my wife's main DBT therapist at the same time my wife was doing the batterer's program.  I have come to realize the huge divide between the traditional therapy community and the DV intervention community.  I met with Therapist B today, who my wife has already seen six times and would like to continue with.  Therapist B trained with Marsha Linehan for a year, which is a huge plus, and is willing to do DBT at the same time as the batterer's program, which solves one of the biggest obstacles to setting all this up.  A couple of things about her made me a little uneasy, but as best I can tell that's outweighed by the positives.  As I suspected, my wife had not revealed many DV details at all, but I was reassured to find that Therapist B wanted to hear details, and actually asked if I could provide more details (she specifically asked about text messages my wife sent) to help her provide "targets" for the DBT therapy.  So, Therapist B is going to be my wife's main DBT therapist, and Therapist A is going to be her DBT skills group coordinator.  Two key positions on the team filled!  After I provide the input my wife's therapist asked for, I'm seriously looking forward to stepping back and letting my wife work with her folks while I work on my stuff.

The last piece of the puzzle is getting my wife enrolled in the batterer's program.  She's had some confusing communications with the program leader, who hasn't been returning her calls, so I'm a little nervous about that, but I'm going to step back and let it not be my problem.  Once that gets nailed I am hoping we can fly straight and level for a while.  Though it's probably going to be exhausting and stressful to figure out the holidays with our weird situation.  I am going to have to work a bit at picking a day here, two days there, where I avoid stressful activities or problem solving and have some peace.

So, it looks like we are going to have a total of five therapists on this -- batterer leader, DBT main T, DBT skills T, my T, and D12's T.  It seems strange to be engaging all those people, but seems right for the size of the problem.  We are so fortunate that these resources exist in our area, and that we're able to access them.  I'm going to need to do some relationship building with the folks at the claims department for our health insurance company

My T seems to be turning out to be really solid.  She is deeply experienced in DV on the batterer and victim side, expert in trauma recovery, very intelligent and engaging to learn from, and has a good balance of listening and advising.

I spoke to my brother-in-law, and he said he's been on the phone with my wife for 1-3 hours a day.  Wow, that's some heavy lifting.  The amount of support we've gotten, and the number of people and perspectives necessary to start this turnaround, has been remarkable.  The BPD family team (say six people), five therapists, four friends, my two parents, two lawyers and a paralegal, a brother-in-law, a DV advocate, and a partridge in a pear tree.  That's 22 people and a partridge!  And I was trying to roll the stone up the hill by myself.  Wow.

So that's how I spent my Thanksgiving vacation   It's been exhausting getting through the holidays and figuring all this stuff out.  Now my boss says I've got some work to do on Improving!  

RC

[pearlsw]

Wow. This is amazing. I guess it does take a village!  Okay, all those folks aside, you! Please take care of you and don't forget your physical health. You've been through a lot of stress and that is hard on the 'ol ticker.  Breathe, laugh, be proud of yourself! 

[heartandwhole]

Radcliff, I second pearlsw's comment. That IS amazing. So glad to hear that you have what sounds like a quality support system around you. Big issues need big solutions. Keep up the good fight and look forward to better days for your family. That's my wish for you. 

[Tattered Heart]

That's great Radcliff. What a huge network. Does it feel much different than a year ago when you felt isolated and without support?

[Meili]

For whatever it's worth RC, I am both proud of you and in awe at what you've been able to accomplish thus far. As the others have said, please don't forget to take care of yourself in all of this.

[Skip]

My wife was looking at two possible therapists.  Therapist A has a lot of local DBT experience, but wasn't willing to be my wife's main DBT therapist at the same time my wife was doing the batterer's program.  I have come to realize the huge divide between the traditional therapy community and the DV intervention community.  I met with Therapist B today, who my wife has already seen six times and would like to continue with.  Therapist B trained with Marsha Linehan for a year, which is a huge plus, and is willing to do DBT at the same time as the batterer's program, which solves one of the biggest obstacles to setting all this up.

Interesting.

[Radcliff]

Thanks, everyone!

That's great Radcliff. What a huge network. Does it feel much different than a year ago when you felt isolated and without support?

Ha!  TH, is that a trick question?   It sure does! 

I want to thank you all for the thousands of lines you have written to support and guide me.  And while all of them were necessary to add up together to get me over the top, the all-star quote, the one that made the light bulb  go off for me, marked the turning point, and has echoed in my head these last few weeks, was this one:

Why start with DV? Because 100% of the world will stand behind you and echo your demand for 100%. Priest, friends, family, cops, school counselor, employer, mailman - heck, even the NFL. If you can't effect zero tolerance with all these tools, you don't stand a chance of softer issues.

It was the NFL that cinched it! 

RC 

[Radcliff]

I am out of control.  I have been consumed managing my wife's problems, and have not been taking care of myself.  I routinely have been going to bed between midnight and 2am.  I have been spending HOURS each day on my wife's issues.  I feel like I'm doing the mental equivalent of competing in the Olympics with a broken leg.  The psychic pain is almost crippling a few times a day on a bad day like today.  I study domestic violence books before bedtime (pro tip -- don't try this at home).  I have my own copy of the DBT workbook.  I've lost track of how to relax and have fun.  Today I took a shower and ate lunch at 2pm.  I'm going to the store to buy food when the kids say they are hungry, instead of having it ready for them.  The dog hasn't been walked in three days.  I have not been meditating to prepare for EMDR like I am supposed to be.  The other day I took a wrong turn two blocks from the home we've lived in for over 10 years.  There are "good" reasons for all of this -- my wife's new therapy plan is in turmoil -- but it has to stop.  I keep thinking we're one week away from me stepping back and getting on with my own healing, but a new crisis keeps occurring so I've been one week away from stepping back for several weeks.

I need to practice stepping back from doing some of the things I'm doing, but it's hard for many reasons.  One is that my wife's actions have consequences not just for her, but for me and our children.  There is a huge cost to me and potentially our children if she doesn't take a "good" path.  And she is absolutely brilliant at being able to draw me back into her self-centered drama.

Self care and boundaries also need a boost.  Tomorrow looks like a pretty clear day.  Who knows what my wife will throw at me, but it looks clearer than any day in recent memory (knock on wood).  Here's what I hope to do tomorrow:

* Walk the dog twice
* Meditate twice
* Complete my homework assignment for my upcoming therapist appointment
* Play the piano for half an hour
* Not read any DV or BPD stuff for the entire day
* Lights out by 11pm

That's probably a total of 2.5 hours of things to do.  I should be able to manage it if I can stay out of trouble, but it's a little hard to imagine doing that much for myself in a day.  It's literally ten times what I typically do.  I'll let you know how I do with it.

RC

[babyducks]

Radcliff,

I have wondered when on earth you slept.   Just looking at the time stamps on your posts I thought, does RC ever,... .like... .sleep?   

How's the dog?   I want the full report.   

Here's what I've learned,  not taking care of my needs creates a vicious cycle,... .I don't take of my needs, I put someone's else needs first, I find myself just draining myself of self esteem, serenity, energy and faith.   It's a downward spiral.   and like anything, the more I do it,... .the more the erosion continues.

You've been through the equivalent of an emotional war.    It's going to take a concerted effort to rebuild your depleted reserves.     Treat yourself as if you are recovering from a serious injury.   Because you are.   It's just an injury some one can see.   

'ducks

[pearlsw]

Hey babyducks and RC and all 

I wanted to ask about the dog too! I imagine it must be fun to have the love and comfort of a pet, especially at these tough times.

It's a marathon here RC so pace yourself!  Anything coming up this month that you are looking forward to that makes you happy?

wishing you the best, pearlsw.

[walkinthepark247]

Radcliff, please take care of yourself! You are important to many people here.

[5xFive]

Hey Radcliff!
How did you do today with your list?

* Walk the dog twice
* Meditate twice
* Complete my homework assignment for my upcoming therapist appointment
* Play the piano for half an hour
* Not read any DV or BPD stuff for the entire day
* Lights out by 11pm

I hope you did great! But don’t reply today- no BPD stuff today. 

You’ve had so much going on! Self care is really important (says the woman who can’t seem to find the time to wash her hair ). Hope you had a truly relaxing day.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi RC,

As with any personal issue, recognition is the first step, so be pleased with yourself for firstly coming to the conclusion that you NEED to care for yourself more.  What I would recommend is that you come up with a mantra that works for you.  At one point I can remember chanting to myself 'what he does is not my responsibility'.  It had the desired effect.  Maybe you can pick up on something from this thread that rings true for you.  You are the most important person in your world.  Without you, everything else falls down.  Your family would be like a table with no legs.  So if you care about them, you must put yourself first. 

You are traditionally good at fulfilling your lists, so I am hopeful that creating one for yourself will have done the trick.  Remember not to beat yourself up if you didn't do it all.  Baby steps.  A little is better than nothing.  Then build upon that.  Last night and the night before I finally pulled out all my art supplies and got creative.  Just because I wanted to.  You know how freeing it is to give yourself permission to do something just for the joy of it?  And the best part is we have that choice pretty much constantly.  We can make what we do fun for ourselves, even if it's obligatory.  If you find it easier to do what is expected of you by others, that's easy.  Re frame taking time out for yourself as what others expect of you.  Indirectly they do if they are reliant upon you to hold things together.  Because unless you feed your soul, you can't.

Love and light x   

[Radcliff]

Thanks 'ducks, pearlsw, walkinthepark247, Monucka, and HQ !  So, Tuesday, after that Monday post, I did everything on my list:

* Walk the dog twice   
* Meditate twice   
* Complete my homework assignment for my upcoming therapist appointment   
* Play the piano for half an hour   
* Not read any DV or BPD stuff for the entire day   
* Lights out by 11pm   

I promise not to start posting every time I eat lunch or do the laundry!  But the idea of "self care" always seemed a little self indulgent to me.  "Work until you drop" is a little more familiar   I'm a little thick-headed sometimes, so I had to get to the point where it was beyond obvious that there was a problem.  Thanks for helping.  It wasn't easy to get all that stuff done Tuesday, and it was the public commitment that put it over the top for me.  The day was restorative.  Wednesday and today have been more of a mix, but I'm doing better at balance.  I thank you, and the dog thanks you!

Oh, there was some interest in the dog.  Big, goofy, happy dog who thinks that my cross-legged meditation pose is an invitation to throw herself on her back across my lap.  I think having a dog is almost worth it just for the excuse to go outside and go for walks.

You know how freeing it is to give yourself permission to do something just for the joy of it?  And the best part is we have that choice pretty much constantly. 

We do?  Wow, that is not the way I've been operating, for sure.  I like that idea

We can make what we do fun for ourselves, even if it's obligatory.  If you find it easier to do what is expected of you by others, that's easy.  Re frame taking time out for yourself as what others expect of you.  Indirectly they do if they are reliant upon you to hold things together.  Because unless you feed your soul, you can't.

Brilliant advice, HQ, thanks!   That re-framing helps!

RC 

[Harley Quinn]

Wow RC!  You're really going for it!  Great to hear you completed your list.  I feel inspired.  OK today I will go to the gym and do some painting at a minimum. 

Keep up the momentum.  That's key.  It's so easy to slip back into putting everyone and everything else before ourselves.  This from the world's worst 

Take care of you.

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Thanks, HQ!  Did you make it to the gym?  I hope that and the art went well!

I am mezza mezza.  D17 got some bad college news, so last night was rough.  I know things will work out just fine, but I feel sad for her.  My wife is stressed to not be in the house to support her, and last night was getting stuck in a negative emotional spiral.  I stepped back and didn't try to "fix" it, which was a first for me, and was hard to do but felt liberating.  I've been meditating and went running today.  Sometimes things are still feeling a little overwhelming, but other times it feels like they are going OK.  That is to be expected I suppose.

It is amazing how with space to breath and not having to maintain the relationship right now, with each day I'm realizing more about what had been going on in our relationship and what both my wife and I were bringing to it.  I would not be having these insights if I was in the thick of things.  I'm getting some practice setting boundaries, and this is a relatively easy environment in which to practice because we are separated.  When we are living with our pwBPD, setting boundaries seems much more challenging -- they can bring a world of drama and pain onto us when they don't like something!

RC

[Meili]

  RC,

I spent most of my T session today discussing something relevant to your situation: Taking care of yourself, boundaries, and learning to say "no."

As you mentioned, it's hard to practice maintaining healthy boundaries in the thick of things because of the fear of the repercussions. The things is that the fall-out is short lived compared to the long-term damage that happens when we do not define and maintain healthy boundaries.

With me, it's primarily a problem with anxiety; and from what you describe, I wonder if it's true for you as well? I anticipate negative outcomes, rejection, pain, loss, etc. to the point that I will completely destroy one of my boundaries to avoid the possibility of something that might happen. The "what if" becomes so strong that my fear outweighs my cognitive thought process of how to successfully negotiate the long-term in favor of avoiding the pain of the short-term. Does any of that fit with you?

[Radcliff]

Hi Meili, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!

As you mentioned, it's hard to practice maintaining healthy boundaries in the thick of things because of the fear of the repercussions. The things is that the fall-out is short lived compared to the long-term damage that happens when we do not define and maintain healthy boundaries.

I can see how fall-out may be short lived in some cases.  Especially if one cleanly executes a boundary, and the other party doesn't have a lot of leverage.  But in a relationship that was founded on not having good boundaries, with a wife with a long long memory and lots of leverage (abuse, abandonment threats, FOG), and me being notably ineffective at understanding and implementing good boundaries, the boundary struggles can go on and on.  I aspire to be in as good a shape as the situation you describe!  Someday soon, I hope

With me, it's primarily a problem with anxiety; and from what you describe, I wonder if it's true for you as well? I anticipate negative outcomes, rejection, pain, loss, etc. to the point that I will completely destroy one of my boundaries to avoid the possibility of something that might happen. The "what if" becomes so strong that my fear outweighs my cognitive thought process of how to successfully negotiate the long-term in favor of avoiding the pain of the short-term. Does any of that fit with you?

For me, it's less about anxiety, than rational calculation of the consequences.  Time and again, over the years, in the situations where I had enough perspective to realize a boundary should exist (which wasn't all the time), I traded the opportunity to set a boundary for the avoidance of whatever the consequences were.  Since abandonment was regularly threatened, I had to get to the point where the abandonment threats had no more power, where I was ready risk losing the relationship.  The kids got pretty old before this happened.  If I ran the movie of my life through, I'm sure I'd see time after time where I could have altered the course of things.  Maybe.  BPD is a powerful illness, and I entered the relationship outgunned.  Some of those decision points might actually have been exits.  Oh well, I am where I am, with many things to be thankful for, in particular the hope of a sane life with boundaries in one of several forms that might evolve over the next few months.

Thanks again for getting me to think about this!

RC

[Meili]

The brilliant thing is that the movie is not over. That means that the remainder of the script can be rewritten, the characters can have new lines, and there can be a happy twist ending.

I'd have to argue against your assertion of rationale calculation of consequences vs. anxiety. Both require you to live in a place of worrying about the what if's and the other person's response. It's the same thing, just with a different label, in my book. But, you know you and have a much better understanding of what has been going on than I do.

We all struggle with boundaries until we are comfortable with them and detached from our fears of the possible consequences.

[Radcliff]

The brilliant thing is that the movie is not over. That means that the remainder of the script can be rewritten, the characters can have new lines, and there can be a happy twist ending.

Thanks for that sentiment!

Meili, you are probably right about anxiety, and that the labels don't matter so much as this kernel of truth:

We all struggle with boundaries until we are comfortable with them and detached from our fears of the possible consequences.

That very succinctly sums up where I've been and where I'm headed!

RC

[Meili]

Have you looked into what is behind the anxiety and gives it so much strength?

[Radcliff]

Meili, I was stumped for a bit, and was about to say that would take several 50 minute hours to get to the bottom of, but then I challenged myself to give you a better answer than that.  I took the brilliant leap that it probably has something to do with my childhood.  We all (pwBPD and nons) do huge amounts of work to maintain our equilibrium.  For me, one of the biggest things is not being comfortable with people being upset.  As a kid, my parents were upset a lot, and then got divorced.  I also observed my dad bending over backwards to help my mother and my (likely BPD) sister maintain equilibrium.  My wife got upset, and I did everything I could to restore her and my equilibrium.  It got us by for 28 years... .until it didn't.

That was pretty quick, but I'll gladly pay you for a whole session.  Where do I sent the money?

RC

[Meili]

I'm glad that you took a moment to look at that. Many of us are too scared or too stubborn to do so. Cheers to you my friend.

OK, now that you can see why you were anxious about things, so you think that there is a way to quash the fears?

What do you think will happen if she gets upset?

[Radcliff]

What do you think will happen if she gets upset?

The last year has been me being less willing to bend to keep her from getting upset.  Her getting upset resulted in progressively worsening abusive behavior.  She reacted to this loss of control by doubling down on control measures, with things escalating over the summer and eventually resulting in a restraining order.  So, it's not as simple as saying that if I let her get upset and own her own stuff, eventually I'll get through the extinction burst and we'll be in a better place.

I suppose our case may be extreme, but not at odds with the truths of what you are saying, though.  If she gets upset, if the world doesn't bend over backwards to try to establish equilibrium for her, she may eventually figure out how to do it on her own, and at the very least I won't be killing myself doing an incomplete job of establishing equilibrium for her.  That's essentially where I am.  She may figure it out, she may not.  I hope she does.  Not my job anymore.  Our arc may be longer, the work harder, the pain greater.  But the truths are likely the same.

RC