Rejecting reality about sex

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

He's baaaack. After things were especially good for a little while, Mr. Hyde showed up again last night. He claimed we don't have sex often enough and he's been feeling this way for several weeks (not reality - literally 2 weeks ago we were on a roll). And basically he's so unhappy I'm not like I was when we were dating over 20 years ago, so he feels an unpleasant mixture of fear and hope when I am affectionate to him. He literally thinks there's something wrong with us not having as much sex with as much enthusiasm as when we were first married (over 20 years ago) and he rejects any outside information that people naturally have less sex and most women are aroused less often as the years go by. He thinks the problem may be that I've read that.

So, rejection of reality. Trying to guilt me into frequent sex. Being passive and expecting me to take the action. Circular conversation in the middle of the night.  We're back to that garbage.

I feel like telling him that if he keeps this up forever I'll leave and then he won't have any sex.

[ElinorD]

He's baaaack. After things were especially good for a little while, Mr. Hyde showed up again last night. He claimed we don't have sex often enough and he's been feeling this way for several weeks (not reality - literally 2 weeks ago we were on a roll). And basically he's so unhappy I'm not like I was when we were dating over 20 years ago, so he feels an unpleasant mixture of fear and hope when I am affectionate to him. He literally thinks there's something wrong with us not having as much sex with as much enthusiasm as when we were first married (over 20 years ago) and he rejects any outside information that people naturally have less sex and most women are aroused less often as the years go by. He thinks the problem may be that I've read that.

So, rejection of reality. Trying to guilt me into frequent sex. Being passive and expecting me to take the action. Circular conversation in the middle of the night.  We're back to that garbage.

I feel like telling him that if he keeps this up forever I'll leave and then he won't have any sex.

[ElinorD]

I did try the techniques. I actively listened, asking clarifying questions and repeating back what I understood him to be saying. I told him I cared about him and that his feelings must be so uncomfortable. And then I said what I thought without sarcasm or accusation. It didn't escalate and I didn't feel panic. So that's something. The way I reacted changed the interaction.

But he's still separated from reality. He's still unpleasant. I just think I can't do this forever, even if it's milder.

[ElinorD]

I read in a book about men with high-functioning BPD that they commonly use sex to treat their anxiety. To distract themselves and take a shortcut to feeling close to someone. I completely believe he does that. He's feeling more depressed and anxious again, and I think this is why this is suddenly an issue again - he wants to fix his bad feelings before he goes to sleep and feels intensely uncomfortable when he can't.

But I can't tell him that. He's so, so angry anytime I learn something about his mental health. How dare I read that kind of nonsense?

[once removed]

i would guess that hes communicating two things, emotionally. read between the lines.

1. he has a higher sex drive than you. this can create conflict in lots of relationships.
2. he perceives an emotional/intimate distance.

hows the physical affection in the relationship otherwise?

[ElinorD]

Oh, for sure, he has more of a sex drive than me, and I tell him that happens and it's very common especially for men to want it more than women, especially as years go by. He says he doesn't believe it and doesn't care what other people say and all that matters is that I don't want to as much as he does so that's a problem. He wants to deny that couples often have different drives. He thinks I've been corrupted by reading that. I tried to suggest what would help me and he said it's too late because I've messed up his reactions to me.

I have been making an effort to touch him affectionately as I walk by, kiss him when I come in the door, cuddle when we watch TV. I know he needs a lot of touch. And I thought that was helping lately, but I guess it's not enough.

I do feel distant from him. I no longer trust him.

[once removed]

arguing about it or arguing about what you are reading is a waste of both of your time. fact of the matter is the feelings of both of you are valid, but youre on different pages.

I do feel distant from him. I no longer trust him.

my guess is that he can sense this, people with BPD traits can be very perceptive in that way, even if he cant put it into words or communicate it well.

why do you feel distant from him? why do you no longer trust him?

[ElinorD]

I've come to realize that he regularly snipes at me and the kids, with little criticisms delivered in a way that it's hard to respond to - he's kidding, or it's in a backhanded, passive-aggressive way, or he's so mad that we're risking a blow up if we say anything in response.

I've come to realize that he can explode in anger without warning and be illogical and mean.

I've come to realize that he's suspicious and pathologically jealous.

I've learned that we have very different values - rather recently I've realized how very different at a fundamental level. . So even if he decides to learn how to handle his emotions and reactions better, I don't know if we have enough to go on. We had shared life goals about where we'd live and what our family would be like, and we ran on that fuel for years (and I sublimated myself to helping his neediness, believing I was healing him). I'm not feeling like we have much in common anymore, and I certainly don't believe I can fix him.

I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it.

[ElinorD]

So what's to be done if he says "this is a problem, you're the problem" and I say we just have our differences and that's normal, and it would help me if you would... ., and tell me more about how I make you feel afraid -- but he just stays angry and resentful?

And why do I always have to be the one tiptoeing around what he wants, anyway, if I'm being honest? I'm burnt out on that. Applying the new skills works better, because he flies off the handle less, and I can end a discussion that has gotten circular and unproductive. And sometimes I can stay detached and see things in a bigger picture way. But I'm really tired of all this. We can be happy and he can be nice, and then out of nowhere he's prickly and cold and looks at me like I'm the enemy, and he has no memory of what was nice last week.

[ElinorD]

I just started reading the Stop the Bleeding thread, and that's so helpful. I've worked on the first section already, with SET, validation, etc. But I'm so fried and fed up that I need to work on the second section.

I also went to a workshop recently that taught me that what gets rewarded gets repeated, so last night when things were unpleasant I did not reward him with sex as I have in the past when he was angry and unreasonable. Of course he thinks that if he starts talking to me in the middle of the night about how hurtful and problematic I am, he'll get what he wants. It has happened before. So it will take an extinction burst for him to choose different behavior that's more constructive. It's like a child who has learned to whine and pout to get their way. He pouts and blames and guilts.

[yeeter]

Hugs Elinor.   

From your post, I am hearing that your husband is in satisfied with his (and your) sex life. 

Your message back to him is that you have a lower drive than you once did.  And many people experience this as they age.

That doesn’t really solve anything for him though, it is kinda like saying ‘too bad deal with it’ when he has tried to communicate his needs.

What is the solution?  (To his problem of wanting more sex?)  (To your problem of not wanting as much sex?)  it seems neither can get what you want.  So how to move forward considering both sides?

[ElinorD]

He spent the day outside working on something and then at the end of the day was very pleasant and warm, and then when we were alone it was clear he had actually listened to me earlier about his passive behavior. So he was surprisingly constructive in the end despite his initial defensiveness.

[Notwendy]

The defensiveness is something I learned to ignore. It used to bother me. I think making any suggestion or request can feel threatening and it triggered a defensive response. However, after thinking about it, I realized that my H was listening to me and considering it.

My task was not to react to the initial negative response. Before I learned not to JADE - I would do that.

This doesn't mean tolerating verbal abuse, but to not take the reaction personally and not add to the drama.

The complaining about "never" having sex is something I have dealt with too and it is very hurtful. This wasn't true- I have also read about "frequency" and we either met this or exceeded it.  The complaining seemed to be a self fulfilling thing- complaining isn't the way to build connection or desire.  There are a couple of ways I dealt with this- not all recommended.

One was to just do it- as a means to keep the peace. We could have a circular argument and lose sleep- and I wanted to sleep so it was easier to just do it. This wasn't kind or loving as it did reinforce the unwanted behavior and also diminish the experience. I don't recommend this.

But neither do I recommend being on my own schedule of needs/requirements. We are different people and so need to work out something for both of us.

I needed to understand the differences. I wanted connection before sex, but I read that for men, sex is the connection. If I waited until I felt "connected" he may not ever feel connected.

Dealing with my own resentments helped clear the emotional baggage. That meant working on my own co-dependency.

Feelings can feel like facts- so if in the moment, he feels he is "never" having sex, then this is a feeling, not a fact, even if he says it. I can learn to hear the feeling behind it without reacting to the "never".

Trying to talk about this didn't help much. Circular discussions feel crazy. This book was helpful. It isn't about BPD specifically but it did help me to learn how to communicate. My style is to be a talker but that didn't work well in my marriage

Book: How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It Paperback – April 29, 2008
by Patricia Love  (Author),‎ Steven Stosny  (Author)

[Cat Familiar]

The defensiveness is something I learned to ignore. It used to bother me. I think making any suggestion or request can feel threatening and it triggered a defensive response. However, after thinking about it, I realized that my H was listening to me and considering it.


Yes, it's taken me a lot of practice, and I still revert to old habits of "Explaining" when I hear my husband getting defensive. I'm such a logical person and I forget that not everyone processes information the way I do. My default operating system is thinking if I can just explain things in a very precise logical way, then surely he'll understand.

NOPE. As smart as he is, when he's triggered emotionally, the logic goes out the window. He's operating on pure emotion.

Nowadays, I catch myself and tell myself, "Shut up, Cat. He's not going to be open to hearing anything you're saying." And when I do this, it works a lot better.

Those always/never language constructions are really irritating to hear for someone who is so based in logical thinking, but as Notwendy says, they're "reality" for someone with BPD who is a black and white thinker. For me to present a counterargument, giving examples of how his "never" is incorrect, is as annoying to him as hearing "never" is to me. Not worth it. It's taken me a long time to realize that no good comes of trying to dispute his feelings.

[once removed]

I've learned that we have very different values

i really understand your frustration, ElinorD.

bottom line, when the sex breaks down, when trust breaks down, when values arent aligned, its the stuff that kills relationships.

its going to take work to rebuild those things. it will likely be necessary for you to lead in that department, and ideally, he will follow your lead. im glad to hear some of the tools are working, and that youre digging into the lessons - it suggests that there is room for improvement.

when it comes to this roadmap, what stage would you say your relationship is in? what stage do you think  he might say its in? https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[ElinorD]

Notwendy, it's such a comfort to me that you understand and have been through this. For years, I've gotten past this, and avoided middle of the night circular arguments in favor of sleep, by just doing it. Like you say, it just built my resentment, and once DH realized I was often having sex just to make him happy, he felt betrayed. (That doesn't take much, but still... .)

It makes a lot of sense that logic and evidence make very little difference to him when he FEELS like he isn't getting what he wants. I have to learn to get past the objectively untrue things he says to focus on his feelings. But somehow not try to fix his feelings for him... .

Seriously, sometimes this all feels ridiculously convoluted, you guys. I have managed his feelings for so long (sometimes with sex!) that now that I realize I shouldn't, and yet I still have to express myself SO CAREFULLY -- I'm tired.

Onceremoved, I'm somewhere in 2-4, but it's somewhat unclear to me. I no longer believe he's a good person with some problems from childhood. So at least 2. Sometimes I go as far as avoiding him. He says I do. That would be 4. We definitely avoid engaging with topics because we expect it to go badly. He will rarely agree to disagree with me. He gets furious if I see something differently than he does.

But in the day to day when he's being positive, I try, too. I don't go beneath the surface much because then we get into disagreements and hurt, and it seems better at this point to remember we can enjoy each other's company. I look for the points of agreement.

Notjustus, I'm so sorry. It's so wrong that when you try to do what he asks, he's just got another reason to be unhappy and blame it on you.

[formflier]

There is a certain amount of pragmatism that needs to be clearly linked to your goals in your relationship.

If you are at the point where you need to protect yourself and your feelings, then do that... .without apology.  Let your hubby manage his feelings.

If that involves turning him down for sex, especially when he "really" wants it, I would hope you can focus on things that can help him "look forward" to something rather than just hear "no"... .  In his world, please understand he is hearing "I don't love you... " or  "I don't care about you... "   Please don't explain that away.

Back to the pragmatism/goals thing.  One of my goals is stability in my family.  My wife's primary love language is touch (by a long shot).  She likes cuddling and hugs, especially in the morning.  My wife has been described by me and my P as "hyper sexual".  Turning her down was rare for me but usually resulted in hurt feelings.

Once I figured out that long sessions of cuddling really calmed things and also brought sex requests down to a more manageable level... .I became a cuddler... .   

It's really not my thing.  I certainly am not saying I dislike it.

Last thought.  I see it as a spouses "job" to take care of sexual needs to the other.  (perhaps someone can suggest a better word that job... )  Because in most relationships, it's not one that can be "outsourced"  ... .

I suspect the 'rub" comes in a r/s with a pwBPD that when the non is "taking care of the pwBPD's needs" and the pwBPD is not reciprocating... or... heaven forbid... being abusive about the other person's needs... .well, resentment will creep in quickly.  Resentment is a cancer that will eat relationships.

Even tougher to understand that resentment is for the person feeling it to "deal with".

What do you think about this post?  Any changes YOU can make in your relationship that might help this?

FF 

[Cat Familiar]

I think sex is one of those areas that can get really messed up in a relationship with a pwBPD. During the honeymoon phase, when there's little to no baggage and everything seems magical, sex seems dreamy and perfect.

Then, history and resentments set in as in any relationship, but now we've had an opportunity to see the Mr. Hyde part of our beloved and so many of us are saying to ourselves, "What the f* have I done?"

I think it's nearly impossible to recreate the sexual magic we first experienced. And for women, there's a few other issues. As Notwendy has pointed out, we usually want emotional intimacy to precede sexual intimacy and with a BPD spouse, that can be problematic for a variety of reasons. Also, as we get older, sex can be painful if we're not adequately prepared. If men experienced painful sex, they might not be so eager to recreate that experience.

Sex is definitely an arena where mutual needs need to be taken into consideration and even in a healthy relationship, I would imagine that can be difficult, considering that often people have different needs.

[ElinorD]

CatFamiliar, so much yes.

Formflier, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's a spouse's responsibility to strive for a good sex life together. I just don't think I need to do it every other day even if I'm really tired.

And when he reaches for me out of anxiety that he's trying to manage (that he hasn't expressed to me), and I say in my half-asleep state that I'm so tired (which I figure is fine because we just did it the night before and it was good), and he storms off angrily -- that's not me needing to make an effort to meet his needs. That's him having an emotional problem. He definitely tries to manage anxiety at bedtime with sex. And we cuddle every night, so that's not filling in when he's really having trouble managing his feelings.

I am his security object. He has even said this. He's emotionally dependent on me. But he doesn't want me to have a will of my own.

[formflier]

I just don't think I need to do it every other day even if I'm really tired.

You don't need to.

Your husband does.

That presents tension (likely putting it mildly). 

Clarity.  I'm not suggesting you meet every sexual whim of your hubby.  I am suggesting that you need to work much harder on showing empathy (in a way he "hears" it) for his higher sexual needs. 

That's very different than apologizing.

That's even more different than labeling his sexual needs "an emotional problem" (which it may be).  Do you think he picks up your attitude towards his needs? 

Please don't hear "blame" in this post.  I'm hoping you can see and reflect on how your actions and judgments may be influencing this sexual dynamic.  Once you get a clearer view of your part, then you hold the reins of power to change the dynamic to something more positive... .more healthy.

What would that healthier sexual dynamic look like in your relationship?

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree with FF that working this out takes some pragmatism. For me, I like to connect with talking and my H is not a talker. That is not going to change. While I am firm about sex and intimacy remaining in my marriage, I can talk to other people. ( with boundaries). Having a few close female friends to talk to takes care of my talking need. I used to push my H to talk to me, but once I stopped, he actually talks to me more.

Being post menopausal- my drive has decreased but so has my H's. That was a hard thing for him to go through. One of the reasons he pushed for the frequency of a 20 year old was because he was concerned about his own physical changes. It has taken a while for him to work this out but I think he has come to accept that quality is as important as frequency. He too didn't like the fact that I was just doing it to keep things quieter between us. He wanted me to have an interest too, and you just don't have an interest when doing it that way.

If marriage is for a lifetime, we do have to work with changes- childbirth, children, empty nest, menopause, "manopause" are all natural phases of life- but change isn't always easy and it can be scary. Maybe you are just ahead of him in accepting the lesser hormonal drive.

I think resentment creeps in when our own needs aren't being met - but we are capable of meeting our own needs. Sometimes self care helps with that- doing something nice for yourself. If resentment can get out of the way, it may be possible to be more empathetic for both yourself and your H.

[ElinorD]

Notwendy, that was a very kind and understanding answer. Thank you.

I think you're onto something about the man having a hard time accepting physical changes. I suspect that this factors in for  my H, who has a deep fear of getting older. He may be insisting so hard that he hasn't changed at all to deny aging. Maybe he'll come to terms with it eventually.

I feel such a need to find peace in myself so I can have compassion for him again. Part of accomplishing that is going ahead and spending time with friends even if that brings about his disapproval or acting out.

[ElinorD]

I am suggesting that you need to work much harder on showing empathy (in a way he "hears" it) for his higher sexual needs. 

That's very different than apologizing.

That's even more different than labeling his sexual needs "an emotional problem" (which it may be). 

I have been doing that for many, many years. He has not. I feel used.

His sexual needs aren't an emotional problem. His BPD, depression, and anxiety are. Sometimes he uses sex much as he uses other distractions, to manage those uncomfortable states of mind. When he does, it's not about love, or even real desire. It's about fixing bad feelings. And in those cases if there's even a hint of rejection or abandonment? Bam. Things get ugly.

[formflier]

Remember... pwBPD are extremely sensitive.  I would bet he picks up on the thoughts and attitudes that you convey here... .and I'm picking up on.

I used to do similar things... .make judgments about how and why my wife does things.  It was incredibly harmful to the relationship, even if it was accurate from my point of view.

Remember... .your hubby has a different point of view.  You can both be right on the same issue... .

  When he does, it's not about love, or even real desire. 

How do you know what his feelings are about?  Do you think if you asked him if his sexual expression to you was about love or real desire... do you think he would agree with your judgment?

FF

[Notwendy]

What is love?

I had to reframe this idea. For one, the "love" I grew up with was a true form of love, but I also grew up in a dysfunctional family. I know that my father loved me, but he was focused on being an emotional caretaker to my BPD mother, so my own experience of love was modeled on that. I think I imagined that when I was married that someone would love me like that, and that this is how I would love someone, but now I know that this kind of relationship isn't good for me. Our early experiences in our FOO's influence us later in relationships- both the good parts and the not so good, but I think we eventually have to accept that our parents did the best they could with what they knew to do.

We also "match" our partners in some emotional way. That's a difficult concept to consider, but if we think they have an emotional problem- somehow we are also attracted to them.

On the topic of sex- a book called Passionate Marriage is an interesting read. Although the title and the contents are a bit steamy, the information on relationships is interesting. They use the term "differentiated" for less enmeshed. Two statements in the book stood out to me:

Each partner thinks he or she is more "differentiated" than the other.
Each partner's level of differentiation matches the other.

The key to a better sex life is to become more differentiated ( less enmeshed )( which takes personal work)

Clearly, I had some work to do. I think the hurt and resentments from the sexual issues really took work and are a work in progress. I realized though that my H does love me and his family. He may not show it in ways that "fit" my ideas but then some of those ideas were formed in a dysfunctional FOO. I also looked at his. His mother is co-dependent and he experienced this as love. So he seemed to like my co-dependent behavior, but it was also causing problems.

Books on love call it a verb, not a feeling. One thing I also had to learn was that this includes self love, and self care. Both my father and my MIL role modeled self sacrifice as love, but doing this also leads to resentment and that isn't being loving to your spouse or you.

[ElinorD]

Notwendy, very good points. I agree, we often are attracted to our partners because of unconscious things having to do with our family of origin.

He was drawn to me because his mother didn't love or nurture him. She abandoned him. And I was very nurturing. He found the mothering he lacked. At that stage of my life, I believed I could re-mother him for a while and eventually he'd be healthy. I think that's why I'm reaching the end of my rope, because my children are nearly grown but he isn't better. He's either worse or my eyes are more open. But he still wants the intense nurturing- why wouldn't he?

So obviously I went into our relationship in rescuer mode. I had a deeply insecure mother who was very attached to her children but not suited to her husband, and a distant, unhappy father. Clearly I was working out FOO issues, and I wasn't old enough to have gotten very far. I've just recently realized that my H's insecurity and my mother's can sometimes be triggered in very similar ways, and I think the reason I accommodated his lashing-out when he felt that way was because I accepted that as a normal part of life with a person I was close to. And that's why when I'm with them both I feel like I'm walking a tightrope - whose insecurity do I work around? So, yeah, codependency.

The differentiation issue - absolutely. I read a book about family systems lately, and I could totally see that we're at similar levels of (unhealthy) differentiation. I seek approval and fear everyone's disapproval. He fears rejection and sees it everywhere, even in his wife and children having different opinions from him or being close to other people - or wanting to be differentiated! There's so much uncomfortable work ahead.

And, as you can see from me putting this in Conflicted or Tolerating, I don't know if it will work in the long haul. Maybe we got together for the wrong reasons, and if I want to grow in emotional health and he is opposed to any growth and change, which he professes to be  - maybe as I change he naturally will, too, or maybe we won't work out.

[Cat Familiar]

So obviously I went into our relationship in rescuer mode. I had a deeply insecure mother who was very attached to her children but not suited to her husband, and a distant, unhappy father.

I seek approval and fear everyone's disapproval. He fears rejection and sees it everywhere, even in his wife and children having different opinions from him or being close to other people - or wanting to be differentiated!

So many similarities with some of us. My mother was like how you describe yours + BPD.

I started my relationship with my current husband in rescuer mode too. He had been abused, betrayed and had many sad stories. I saw him as someone who was kind and had much hardship due to how others treated him. (Now I understand a bit more.)

Like you, I used to seek approval and fear disapproval. My husband fears rejection and sees it everywhere, like yours. Yes, even slightly different opinions on my part can trigger him. He can think I think that I'm smarter than him, or that he's wrong, or stupid. There's no "agree to disagree" option.

I don't know whether it's just time passing, life learning, therapy or maybe even my concussion earlier this year, but for some reason, I don't give a damn about approval and disapproval. I now see it as a great sorting mechanism. Those who like me will like me and those who don't, won't. And I'd rather find out about it sooner than later.  

[formflier]

I don't give a damn about approval and disapproval. I now see it as a great sorting mechanism. 

I've noticed my attitude shift towards this as well.  Plus... .I used to get upset if someone disapproved... .now it barely registers... .other than sort of a data point that I use to make a decision. 

FF