Should I discuss future separation with D9?

[LightAfterTunnel]

I’m tolerating our relationship currently as I get all my ducks in a row for a separation that I’m planning for this next summer.

My BPDw and I have three children: D9, S6, D4. I’ve decided to separate, even with the knowledge of the interim hell I am about to traverse, especially for my children. Seeing them suffer from her daily outbursts, emotional invalidation, lack of presence, blame, physical enforcement, etc... .has been too much to bear. As I’m sure those of you with children know, it’s an impossible tightrope to walk: validating and caring for your children while simultaneously “invalidating” your BPD partner. I’m exhausted and not to mention tired of being demonized and name called everything in front of the children.

So... .recently I am having major difficulty because my D9, who has seen and experienced more than the other two, is starting to openly oppose her mom. She inevitably gets raged at by my BPDw for her openly talking back. I try to validate her emotions while at the same time explaining the issues at hand objectively. The problem is that she is very smart beyond her years and she understands how unfair her mother is with her. In the past my method worked but it doesn’t anymore. D9 is visibly shaken by this rupture in what I can only imagine is her fundamental ideas of love, caring, parents, etc. I’m worried.

I’ve never badmouthed my wife no matter what. However, I have always validated D9 feelings with “I would be upset too” or “I’m sorry you feel that way and I understand why you would feel... .” D9 has understood the disaccord in our relationship for years and has asked me if we’re going to separate in the past to which I respond “don’t worry about that. Just know we love you and you haven’t done anything wrong.”

Recently, over the last 6 months or so D9 has said things like “you married the wrong woman”, “I hope you leave mamma and marry a nice woman like ... .”, “I hate mamma, I really do, I don’t like her”, “if you separate from mamma then I want to live with you.”

It’s breaking my heart.

Should I say anything to her and when? I’m also worried about any possibility that my D9 tells BPDw what I tell her and it bites me later in court.

Any help would be appreciated!

LAT

[ozmatoz]

LightAfterTunnel, I really don't have any advice other to let you know I'm going through the same things with D10 and D16.  I do believe they are smarter than we give them credit for and they see and hear far more than we know.

In my case D16 is the one who has also had enough and is starting to push back.
D10 would never push back because she defaults to loving everyone, but she has said to me that she does not like how unkind mommy is being to me.

I am trying to be cautious as D10 is like a skipping record and likely to repeat back anything I say to her, and probably in the worst time and place. 

I have yet to see how deep and far my uBPDw takes things because it just keeps getting worse and I wouldn't put it past her to use anything I've said to the kids against me.

Take the high road, they know the truth.  They love you.
Keep us posted!

Good luck.
-Oz

[flourdust]

Talk to D9 after you separate, not before.

You will need to walk the tightrope between being supportive of your daughter and not feeding into parental alienation. This isn't easy. A book I would suggest is Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, who is something of an expert in high-conflict divorces.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Thank you ozmatoz & flourdust.

I’m trying my best to be everything for the kids but my wife just keeps cutting my legs out from under me... .it’s hard at times.

Especially with D9... .I just don’t know how to soothe her pain. The “I’m sorry” and “I know how you feel” etc goes only so far. She’s needing more words of comfort and honest discussion. I want so much to talk with her but I know it’s not the time yet. It just wrenches your heart to see them in so much anguish and not be able to help.

The book Don’t alienate the kids is already on my list and I look forward to reading it, thanks

[AskingWhy]

Dear LAT, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT discuss your decision to separate with your D9.

Nine is too young an age to understand the complexities of an adult relationship.  Although your D9 has been sadly impacted by the actions of your W and she knows her own mother is unstable (a sad truth for any child), she is too young to handle the decision you are about to make.

On top of this, young children cannot be depended upon to keep adult "secrets."  They might want to confide in younger siblings and friends about this precious "secret."  She may use her "privileged" place as "keeper of Daddy's secrets" against her own siblings.   As a father, you may find this hard to believe.  Trust me, this happens every day.

Regardless of your D's opinion of her own mother and parents' marriage, it is really not your place to use your own daughter as a confidante.  Your D is your child, and not an adult friend or partner. 

It will impact any marriage your may have in the future if your D sees you are using her as an emotional "equal."

This is the mistake many divorced parents make.  They confide in their children about their other parent or even new spouses.

Continue the best you can to support your W until the separation become legal.   Validate your children when your W dysregulates but still have her back, if you know what I mean.  This is very hard to do, I know.  Until the time comes, your W is your spouse, unstable or not

Asking children to take sides and confiding secrets with children will spell the death of even a marriage with emotionally healthy spouses.

Read this for more info:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

https://bpdfamily.org/2010/10/your-parents-have-you-been-victim.html

[Cat Familiar]

I don't have kids myself, but I will answer your question by telling you my experience as a child when my parents were contemplating divorce.

My mother asked me when I was about 5 or 6 which parent I would choose to live with if they divorced. I told her that I would run away. After that, for about 2 years or so, each parent asked me who I "liked best". I never answered that question. They never divorced and settled into a cold, distant relationship until death.

Like others have said, talking about your marriage with your daughter is not a good idea.

What I wanted to hear from my parents was nothing about their relationship. I only wanted to hear that each of them loved me.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Thanks AskingWhy and Cat Familiar!

Great comments. I appreciate being able to sound out my feelings when I’m worried or down and getting back such helpful grounded advice.

Cat Familiar, your comments really shook me. I can only imagine how horrible it must be to be a child placed in such an unhealthy tug-of-war match while no one cares for your feelings. If I understood correctly you are saying that just the vocal support from me should help my D9 in these difficult moments with her mom?

That’s what I’ve always hoped but sometimes I feel I’m not doing enough. I’ve noticed often that in these moments when she’s crying and upset how quickly her heart is beating. I’ll usually rub her back as I talk to her calmly. I’ll feel her start to come back to a normal level. It’s something my T has taught me along with breathing exercises to find equilibrium when my wife is dysregulated. They’re the only things I know to do but I don’t know if they’re “enough”.

As an example, my wife recently told her that she can’t have a bday party (she turned 9 over a month ago) even though initially my wife built it up. Then week by week BPDw would postpone it. Until now BPDw tells D9 she doesn’t deserve it because she is a brat, acts like a s**t, etc... .non of which is true other than my BPDw’s inability to cope with any stress whatsoever. I would gladly throw a party for her without BPDw present, but the chances of that happening are less than winning lottery!

So... .I find myself as always in the horrible role of not being able to provide for my kids other than a caress on the back and some consolatory words. In the meantime my D9 is destroyed inside and my words are worthless to being able to celebrate her bday with her friends like all the other kids.

[Panda39]

Hi LightAfterTunnel,

I agree with the others hold off on your conversation with your daughter and other kids until after you break the news to and talk with your wife.  When you talk with your kids try and keep it balanced and age appropriate (no mommy bashing).  They will be most interested in how this will effect them.

Was this their fault?  Where will they live?  Will they go to the same school?  Will they still see their friends? Will they see both you and mommy? etc. (Don't make promises that you really don't know the answer to) Ask them validating questions, let them know that you are available if they think of questions later etc.

The discussion with them about separation and divorce is for them, not for you to vent.

I've attached the tools from the co-parenting board for you to check out (you might want to post over there regarding the kids as the time approaches when you leave your marriage)... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.0

Take Care,
Panda39

[Cat Familiar]

Cat Familiar, your comments really shook me. I can only imagine how horrible it must be to be a child placed in such an unhealthy tug-of-war match while no one cares for your feelings. If I understood correctly you are saying that just the vocal support from me should help my D9 in these difficult moments with her mom?

That’s what I’ve always hoped but sometimes I feel I’m not doing enough. I’ve noticed often that in these moments when she’s crying and upset how quickly her heart is beating. I’ll usually rub her back as I talk to her calmly. I’ll feel her start to come back to a normal level. It’s something my T has taught me along with breathing exercises to find equilibrium when my wife is dysregulated. They’re the only things I know to do but I don’t know if they’re “enough”.

You are doing everything right with words of affirmation and rubbing her back while she calms down. You might want to share breathing exercises with her so she knows how to calm herself when you’re not around.

Even if you can’t throw her a party, maybe you can take her to a fun park, play miniature golf with her, skip some rocks at the lake, go fishing, take her to a ceramics class, go for a hike, fly a kite.

My dad used to take me and a friend to do things such as the above and later, drive us to the beach or to a filming of a television show. He’d wait patiently in the car while we acted as though we were out by ourselves. I was a bit older than your daughter then and you can guess where I grew up.

Spending time with my dad meant a lot to me. He’d play board games with me,  let me dive off his shoulders in the swimming pool, bring home objects from his work that I could use for art projects, and create little three dimensional mind puzzles for me to solve.

He was normal. Unlike. my. mother.

Never underestimate how meaningful your presence is to your daughter. Whether or not your wife puts the kibosh on a birthday party, there’s a way you can be there for your girl and let her know how important she is to you.  

[SlyQQ]

If you do, it cant be presented in any way shape or form, as her being part of the desicion making process.

Also it must be clear cut - i am leaving your mum.