Divorce and Custody Court tomorrow

[ForeverDad]

We all have our stories.  At the very end my ex was telling my to "get it" with my sister and mother (then in her 80s).  I knew she was trying to pain me as much as possible but it still hurt.  We had been married over a dozen years, was once my bestest friend and it had come to that.

There was one time she exclaimed she felt she like a prostitute and ought to get paid.  Silently I said to myself, "Well, you wouldn't earn much as rare as it is."  At the end it was a couple weeks to a few months apart, she would sometimes hint in the morning that I might get something that night but of course either she would get mad at me for some pretext or she would do something outrageous and I just couldn't want to do anything.  I didn't feel like buying something tainted that used to be shared.

Run my suggestion past son's lawyer, that she ask reciprocal time for son so he can bring the boy on his parenting time too.  That ought to be very telling whether the boy is being coached or influenced by alienation attempts.  The worst that can happen is the judge says No.  And it would be On The Record.

[Panshekay]

Ok... .not a win but not a lose. He has to give her half of all his retirement, pay spousal support of 750.00 a month for 1 year plus child support. New counselor for GS who the judge has already decided on. Both parents will be allowed to attend, not just EXW.   Judge told EXW that spousal support was for her to get mental health care. He stated that at least 6 or 7 times.  He also made it  clear she was not to withhold GS, or make anymore Dhs reports.  Judge spent 45 min with GS where his first statement was my dad touches my pee pee. Judge is reporting that to Detective because that has to stop, she has told GS  to say that to everyone.  Judge says our Son is not a molester and clearly loves his son. EXW was given full custody but Judge is keeping this case so if she ever starts alienating GS again she will lose that.  They will continue with 50/50 parenting.

They will baby step it back with time with our son. We got to see GS who says he is afraid of his dad but couldn’t tell the judge why he was afraid run up to him after court and yell DAD, Our son picked him up and held and  hugged him and we talked to him. He had a long list of Christmas present requests. He had no fear of our son, no the judge didn’t see that but all attorneys did. .  I had told God I would do anything he told me to do so during that God laid it on my heart to hug EX DIL... .ugh... .so I went up and said her name  3 times, she turned and I said I know you probably don’t want to but I would like to give you a hug. I hugged her and told her I cared about her. All led by God.    I do care about her, I care how she parents my GS. After when we all left the court house and went outside GS yelled hey DAD! And waved and waved, so very happy. I waved too. 

We are very happy.  Our son  gets our GS  Christmas Day for 3 hours, our whole family is coming down for it.  Then 3 days a week for a few hours until the new counselor says it’s ok to go back to 50/50 visitation.   If she continues with complaints to DHS etc, this judge stays on the case. He made it clear he doesn’t want to see her in a year saying she wants to move to calif. and made it clear if  she makes more complaints she will lose custody. it’s  not perfect, but we are happy. Praise God. Life is good again. And... .to be continued. Love to all for your support.  Thank you. I intend to pay it forward. God Bless each and every person who has to live this nightmare.

[ForeverDad]

I am so relieved for you and your son and your grandson.

However, I'm trying to get my mind around judge's decision to grant mother full custody yet tell her she needs to stop coaching son for allegations and she needs mental health care.  That just doesn't make sense.  Making custody changes is difficult, it may be hard for that to be undone.  Well, unless she continues with allegations, I bet she will find a way to get past that injunction, maybe getting others to make reports she designs.  I expect her to maneuver things, or at least try, so that the new counselor holds visit at the initial brief stage for far too long.  Whether the counselor is expert enough to detect that, we'll see soon enough.  As the saying goes, a leopard doesn't change its spots.  But it is what it is.

[Panda39]

I thought the full custody was interesting too, my take is that might be her "win" while losing visitation or the judge might be aware of BPD and the fear of abandonment... .who knows.

Heck who cares right now... .a little boy gets to see his dad and his dad gets to see his son!  That is a victory in my book 



It does remain to be seen if DIL is able to control her own behaviors, but that is for another day.

So happy for you all Panshekay what a wonderful Christmas gift!     

Panda39  

[formflier]

Big picture... I could this as a couple steps forward.  


I would see if your sons Ls can send a modification or suggestion to the judge that you son "pay her mental health bills up to 750"

We all know what is likely to happen if the money goes to her.  Yes... .later I'm sure that she can be forced to prove what she has paid.

I'm also struck by the full custody decision, but I suspect the judge was trying to "think of the child" vice decide a battle between two parents.  

Oh... I would also as your Ls if they can suggest language that "any DHS reports must be approved by the judge before making them."  I know in civil litigation that "can be put on people" that make frivolous claims.

For the counselor.  :)oes this mean the "fruity" counselor that wouldn't talk to son because of investigation is gone?  Just want to be clear.

Good steps... there is reason to celebrate here.  There is reason to keep planning for the future as you know that she will likely "keep doing her thing".

FF

[takingandsending]

     

This news makes my X-mas! I am so excited for your son to be able to see and spend time with his son on Christmas. Despite the full/primary custody, this is a big decision in your son's favor to recognize xw need for mental health treatment. Now, court ordered, there is room to put detail in, and she is on precarious footing of losing custody of your GS. So glad the judge could see through the horrific lies and accusations. So sad that anyone would ever be so emboldened and at same time frightened to ever do this. Your DIL is a very ill woman. Now, it's time to focus on your GS and unwinding all the alienation.

Prayers and joy with you and your family over the holidays. You are an amazing woman to support your son through all of this. 

[ForeverDad]

I like formflier's suggest to have the order state son reimburses his ex up to 750 per month.  Receipts, please.  After a year has passed and it is discovered she hasn't done much of anything toward therapy AKA mental health care, there's no way the court would grant a clawback and even if it did she'd claim poverty.  Then again, court could be giving her a year to get her act together or else things will change.

FF was describing "gatekeeping" (LnL got that order from her court without even asking as I recall) where the person has to get court approval to proceed.  There is a legal term called "vexatious litigant" but that is rarely used if ever and then typically when frivolous lawsuits are filed in bulk.

[livednlearned]

I teared up reading about your GS hugging his dad   

What a touching moment. I hope your family enjoys every single minute of those 3 hours on Christmas Day     

I don't mean to project my own case on yours, but my gut tells me the judge knows your DIL will file another false charge. He gave her full custody because that's meant to keep her in line. Meaning, if she does this again, she loses everything.

With the things he has said, and how he has framed it, her full custody does not seem to hold much water.

What a relief that you were able to get this judge.

Big hug to you Panshekay. 

[Panshekay]

Thank you all so very much. They played the keep the kids togther card... .and we live in a state that gives mothers custody. It is my hope she takes this opportunity to get help. You all have good advice, I will share that with our son. I wasn’t shocked over the Custody part, like FoeverDad says, sometimes it takes time for them to bury themselves. I hope she gets help because she has a 12yo D who is following in her foot steps and I have no doubt she is also telling our GS what to say. All you had to do was see how happy our GS was to see his dad, his large blue eyes almost looked like he was seeing a mirage... .he was so happy.

The judge was totally on it with her making statements to mandatory reporters and even had emails from DHS to prove so. The fruity counselor is no more. The judge hand picked someone he knows and filled her in with the case. The biggest issue anyone who was against our son was they never met him. But yet had plenty to say about him.  The last day of court I just couldn’t take it... .I wanted to be in the courtroom as a presence , but didn’t want to hear all the BS... .so I went in the bathroom got 2 large paper towels wet and stuffed them in my ears, went back into court and took them out when the judge made a decision. I am not some mother who blindly believes their child because he’s my child. I know each one of my children’s strengths and flaws. As the doctor that he worked for said “he is the best human being I have ever met”. And I agree... .his flaw is he is too forgiving and nice. We are still very thrilled with things... .Time will tell, and it will tell quickly. I have no doubt. Love, peace and blessing to all. Panshekay.   

[Panshekay]

Sorry, EX W got Custodial Parent... .

[ForeverDad]

They played the keep the kids together card... .and we live in a state that gives mothers custody.

That is a noble goal but, as we see in this case, not always the right choice.  It is a sad thing when courts still give mother preference over father.  That was popular in past decades in the Tender Years Doctrine.  That was a reversal of even earlier historical father authority.  Neither is correct since not all fathers and not all mothers are the best choices.  In recent years there has been a trending toward a correction to equalize things with equal orders.  But the problem remains, when one parent of either gender abuses their position as parent then that parent should not have control over the parenting.

Of course you know all that, I don't need to preach to the choir.  Odds that she will use the support to get therapy are small.  Odds that she won't try to do an end run around the judge's order to stop making unsubstantiated allegations are small too.  Son needs to document or report any violations.  She may start small, testing the waters, seeing how strong the boundaries are, viewing any success as basis to push harder.  All orders need exceptions now and then, after all, life happens.  He needs to make doubly sure that any trades or concessions are documented clearly as exceptions and not weakening the court's order.  By now I'm also fairly sure he won't be guilted easily to let her get her way, it may have worked years ago but not now.

It is my hope she takes this opportunity to get help.

Of course it is.  We need to look at life as though the glass is half full, not half empty.  Doesn't mean she will actually do it.

[Panshekay]

You are very right ForeverDad, on all of it. Interesting fact today. CASA lady is still involved with SD. She called Ex yesterday to meet today at her house to give SD Christmas gifts at noon.  She went to her house and waited 45 min, text, called, emailed etc and never got a response. How rude is that?

Yesterday our son got text from ex saying she wanted to bring S to our Sons house. Our son said he preferred to meet at the usual exchange spot. She said no, she will bring him her to his house. She has no idea that our entire family is here to celebrate Christmas with our GS. 

Judge had asked if she was going to calif for Christmas, she said no... .I have a feeling that is exactly what she did, and legally she  can now... .so on Christmas Day, at noon I will go to the exchange site, just in case she tries to pull something. Our son can wait at his house for her.  It looks like it may have already started... .we will see.  What she did to the CASA lady was selfish, she wasted her time. No surprise there.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, how might she try to sabotage the visit?  Of course this is the first post-court visit so it's probable she will comply.

She already tried refusing to use the usual exchange location.  If son is expecting her to arrive at one location but she goes to another, what if she goes to where you are?  Would she refuse to make the exchange because son isn't there in person?

I'm presuming the judge set a specific begin and end to the visit.  What if she brings his son late?  Odds are she will appear on time to collect the boy and make a complaint that return was late (despite her being late to the earlier exchange).  In my area the county allowed an exchange window of a half hour, or more if the late parent was stuck in traffic or delayed by weather, etc.  My ex sometimes complained I was late (rush hour traffic, construction or accidents) even though I would call while delayed that I would be a little late.

Sometimes I think cell phones are the bane of divorced parents.  Before there were cell phones no one expected immediate contact by parents on the road or while on vacation.  (Yes, for a few years I was stuck with a magistrate's order that I provide phone access daily even while on vacation with my child.)

[takingandsending]

Off subject but I completely agree about cell phones being the bane of divorced parent existence. I hate them! But then, it is really the BPD behavior coupled with the instant gratification of cell phones that I hate. It’s as if we no longer allow life to happen but demand it happens on our terms in our time. Horrible tool in the hands of a disordered person.

[livednlearned]

Panshekay, I was thinking about you yesterday, hoping things went ok and that you and your family were able to visit with GS.

Seems a lot to hope for... .but hope does spring eternal.

 '

LnL

[Panshekay]

Well that didn’t take long... .today our S text his X asking what time he could see his son.  She never responded so he asked again later this afternoon. She insisted she drive our GS to a public place, our son said the trampoline park... .so she walks in and wants to know exactly what they will be doing and if he is going to feed him dinner... .she is in her “I’m in control mode, I have full custody, I have all the power”.  Our GS acted fearful of our son around his mother, she kept GS behind her until our son answered all her questions. When X came to pick up GS he again acted fearful. This isn’t going to work.

Our son reached out to the court ordered counselor that HE has to pay for. She asked for a 1,000.00 retainer. He meets with this counselor on  Sunday at 3:30.  The judge told her that our son was to pay for all of the counseling, because he makes good money.   Why is it that we can’t reach out to the judge?  Why does it have to go through an attorney?  Everything is about money... .everyone makes money off of family courtvand conflict which is a big part of the problem.

I fear the nightmare continues. I had high hopes. Ugh.

[Panda39]

As they do everywhere else in their lives pwBPD will push boundaries to the maximum even with court orders and I agree it is awful how many people make money off of the conflict these people create.  What is the courts motivation to stop the conflict when conflict is a money maker   

This will likely be an expensive fight at least for awhile and yes totally unfair about the expenses.  I will say though that I've seen a pattern with many of us here and that is at the beginning of the divorce process there is high conflict, high drama, and high expense and yes it feels like it will never end but as we move through the process, and as the court adjusts things (because they slowly... .did I say slowly... .do) it does improve.

All of us had to go back to court several times to get things reviewed, and adjusted.  I know that doesn't make it better, and yes it's painfully slow, and is also unfair but I just wanted you to know that you are in the same boat as many of us here and encourage you to hang in there because at least for awhile it will be a bumpy ride.

Try an focus on the positive... .how did your Grandson like his Christmas with his dad?

Panda39

[Panshekay]

 Love you Panda39... .you give me hope. I was hoping for a little relief... .we got like 2 days. GS had a great time and lots of fun, the neighbor kids came over and our youngest GS is 4 and they really love each other, our family traveled down just to see him and bring gifts. It was a good time.  A friend that our S works with has a D who is 6 and they came over as well.  This friend has been a huge support for our S.

It’s so easy to go down the rabbit hole... .I read a lot, and follow Dr Childress and some of the things that are posted are very depressing, but true.  I see the affect on my SGD, and GS and I think what sort of hope do they have?  I am hoping that this counselor sees things for what they really are.  Our S being 178 miles away plays a part in that as well... .I go down quite often.  Thank goodness I can do that.  Thanks for pulling me back out of the hole Panda... .Blessings.

[formflier]

Remember not to focus on actions of a disordered person to declare "victory" of if "things are better".

Focus on time with GS. 

The ex is likely to continue to act in a high conflict... .high drama... .disordered manner for a long time.  Please understand while this is exhausting for you now, it likely results in more time with your GS (over the long term).

Continue to document interactions with the ex. 

Hang in there.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF.  Good advice.

[whirlpoollife]

Panshekay, I have been following your posts and my heart is you and your family.
Not legal advice but when your S is with GS again , if not already, have some photos taken of them together , have it enlarged on canvas and hanging on the wall.  Photo books of your family with him as well.  Put them in his hands to see  so he has visual and also verbal reminders of good times together.  So when he's at its moms he can still have the picture of he and his dad together in his mind.  A chip away to reverse the brainwashing.

[Panshekay]

Thank you Whirlpoollife.  I do that... .always have. Evertime we come down to see our son and GS I take tons of pics, have them enlarged then put them in frames and hang them in GS room and our son has a photo wall in the living room.  We also paint pictures, it’s a stress relief for me and I love painting watercolors... .I have our grandchildren do self portraits and hang them in my house. I love seeing these times captured. 

 It has been hard, really hard, and is a huge emotional journey but it’s hard for all of us who are going through this or have been through it. I love hearing from others who have come out the other side and see the light of day, it’s encouraging.

 Today our son was supposed to see GS from 10 to 2.  I drove down with my 4yo GS yesterday so we could take the boys to the movies today... .well, that’s not happening... .our S text EX, she stated no, her attorney said it’s from 3 to 5... .what EX doesn’t know is we know she is out of state with GS, which is legal now that they are divorced. She goes out of state often to see her NPD BF. 

Our S meets with the court ordered counselor today (I know weird to meet on New Years Eve)... .I pray this woman knows what she is doing... .and sees EX for the monster she is. Until this counselor says GS is NOT afraid of our S his visitation time is 6 hours a week... .in a public place.  I will keep you all posted.

[formflier]

How is there a debate about what times they are supposed to meet?

What is the plan to report this to the court... .this is EXACTLY the kind of interference I took the judge to be talking about.

Is there a written plan that all have signed off on?

FF

[Panda39]

Today our son was supposed to see GS from 10 to 2.  I drove down with my 4yo GS yesterday so we could take the boys to the movies today... .well, that’s not happening... .our S text EX, she stated no, her attorney said it’s from 3 to 5... .what EX doesn’t know is we know she is out of state with GS, which is legal now that they are divorced. She goes out of state often to see her NPD BF. 

It's stuff like this that makes me miss the eye-rolling emoji!  Keep the text... .document... .document... .document... .I know, you know 

Our S meets with the court ordered counselor today (I know weird to meet on New Years Eve)... .I pray this woman knows what she is doing... .and sees EX for the monster she is. Until this counselor says GS is NOT afraid of our S his visitation time is 6 hours a week... .in a public place.  I will keep you all posted.

I'll be interested in hearing how this goes too.

I use my Christmases as a way to see the progress I've made in terms of my relationship with my SO's children. You might try and use that as a measure of your progress too.  My guess is next year you will have more than just a few hours with your grandson.

My Christmases... .

1st Christmas - I had not met SO's daughters, we had been together less than 6 months.
2nd Christmas - Dad and daughters had a horrible Christmas together (parental alienation) the pictures from that Christmas reflect the misery   I got gifts for the girls.
3rd Christmas - The kids and I had met by then but I was being seriously rejected (where's the crying emoji!) I got gifts for the girls.
4th Christmas - Everyone was more used to each other my SO and his daughters and me and my son went out to dinner and drove around checking out the neighborhood Christmas lights.  Still spent Christmas separately. Got gifts for and from the girls.
5th Christmas - D21 went NC with her mother.  My son worked Christmas Day so he and I did Christmas Eve and I spent the afternoon Christmas Day with my SO and his daughters.  Got gifts for and from the girls.
6th Christmas - Christmas Eve with my son/Christmas Day with SO and daughters. Got gifts for and from the girls
7th Christmas this year - I was sick   So separate Christmases but the first year the kids got gifts for each other. 

Every year there is more progress in terms of my relationship with them and their dad, every year the relationships have become easier, every year sadly their mother is less and less in the picture. It's so sad that she can't be what they need her to be, but I see their distance from her as them growing healthier, setting up boundaries, and seeking emotional support in other places. BPD creates so many complicated feelings and situations.

Looking forward to next Christmas.

Wishing you and yours a   9.

Panda39

[Panshekay]

FF, our S has not gotten anything in writing. Ya, unbelievable huh.  Attorney is not responding... .our S, he thinks it’s because he still owes her money... .we can’t just call the judge, it has to go through his attorney. He went to see the judge appointed T.  Now she wants a 2,000 retainer. Let me just say I could just scream about now.

 The T did say that the judge really struggled with giving EX custody, I dont know if that makes me sad, mad or happy. She also said she was surprised that the judge reached out to her as she was “fired” from one of his cases because she said a patent was Alienating.  The mom and child said they hated T so the judge fired her.

She said she is the only T in town who deals with PA.  She hadnt had a chance to read anything in the large box of records she got from the court. Son gave her a copy of EX Mental Health Records and  the CASA lady’s letter that sates his EX is a liar and our son is a great father.  This T also used to work with the Doctor who testified on our sons behalf who said “_____ is the best human being I have ever met in my life”. Those are all huge blessings. She also was angry that EX has never had any consequences, she said she will take care of that, she is going to ask the judge for more authority. She is also going to reach our to the judge to get a copy of the visitation schedule. She thought our son hadnt seen his son since March... .it was Oct 31st. 

So our Son had to pay this T when he saw her on Sun. We thought, ok at least our S will be the first to meet new T.  Nope, EX had already spoken to the T... .either in person or by phone. Of course, EX made sure she spoken to her fist. T has not met GS,  EX is ignoring T calls.  T wants to meet with the CASA lady. Also EX would not text or email son anymore, she wanted to say everything in person... .well guess what.  Per T, all texts and emails go to her as well! No talking in person!  YAY!   Perfect. T told our son it would be months, not weeks until he gets 50/50 visitation of Son.  She also told him she would be involved in their lives for at least a year, if not 2 years.  I think we may have another blessing with this new T.  Thank you Panda39 for your well wishes. I hope this all leads to our son getting custody one day.  What a joke when they say our state isn’t a Mother state, that it’s equal.  The Judge gave a mother who suffers from suicidal idealation, self harm, Alienation and all sorts of other things Custody of 2 kids because he didn’t want to separate brother and sister... .there are 5 years between them in age! That doesn’t even make sense when it’s 50/50 parenting time. Ugh.

[livednlearned]

I think we may have another blessing with this new T. 

You and your family are overdue for a blessing, Panshekay 

The parenting coordinator/child psychologist involved in my case was like that. There are good ones out there.

And great that everything must go through text and email.

 

[formflier]

Big picture:  I'm liking this new T.  I think this could change momentum.  I LIKE that she is marking out her territory and letting everyone know she will be involved for years. 

Timing:  I would make a mental exercise of any time you create or "hear" a time explanation, that you triple it.  Much better for you to be pleasantly surprised by speed.

I know this has been long... .keep remembering "marathon"... .not "sprint".

Hang in there.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF, LNL, and Panda 39.  Although it’s slow going I do have hope. Interesting Ex got Sunday’s changed from 10 to 2 to 3 to 5... .couldn’t go out of state to see BF and be back in time I guess. She got to make that decision and that was it... .the power she must feel right now. I can’t wait until that crumbles.

 Like I tell our son, it’s baby steps. T has big case going to court on the 11th, so everyone seems to be currently in limbo. Ex is decked out with new clothes and bleached blonde hair while S comes with dirty old clothes on.  CASA lady is going to reach out to T, she wants to ask how hard it is to get custody changed to our Son.  Not that that will happen anytime soon but one day hopefully. She is in agreement that Judge made a huge mistake. It’s nice to have someone who is unbiased see how it really is. This CASA lady is our Blessing. Hope to say the same about the T.  I also have a good feeling about her.

[formflier]

 
You may be able to undo the Sunday thing by insisting on being able to go to church together.

How did she get it changed without discussion/agreement with your son?

FF

[ForeverDad]

So Sunday time is not only moved later but cut in half.  If it had to be later, why couldn't it have been still kept to 4 hours?  Does that reduce the weekly total of hours the judge specified to start?

I'm figuring the judge thought he can reverse the custody order if ex makes too many missteps.  My concern is that a lot of little missteps may not accumulate to being actionable.  However, I still expect ex to try hard to keep your son's parenting time to equal time, or at least slow it down a lot.