"JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)

[ponco]

When faced with accusations, untrue accusations, exaggerated accusations, it's natural to react and push back. It's logical to want to correct statements that you think are not valid. You feel violated and invalidated.

Surely there are time when we should explain, or defend, or justify!

Justify ------------------------

Have you ever been able to get your partner to agree with you when you justify yourself in response to her concerns?

Attacking ------------------------

Does attacking your partner ever win an argument?

Defend ------------------------

When you defend yourself, does your partner ever accept what you say as the truth?

Explain ------------------------

How about when you explain yourself? Does your partner ever calm her down?

The problem is two-fold.  J.A.D.E. rarely works. We often use it (see graph).  Justifying, counter-attacking, defending, or explaining yourself often makes things worse. Why? Because when you invalidate someones perceptions, they often feel that you are invalidating them, personally. This can trigger conflict as they feel unheard and uncared for.



         Click to enlarge

I completely disagree with this topic.

If you want to be a therapist and a caretaker for the rest of your life with your BPD partner then by all means don't JADE, also if that's what you want you can also tatoo "WELCOME" in your forehead and lie down so you can be the perfect floormat.

[Skip]

We're all here to learn. Does justifying, counter-attacking, defending, or explaining yourself help in your marriage? Can you give an example?

[ponco]

We're all here to learn. Does justifying, counter-attacking, defending, or explaining yourself help in your marriage? Can you give an example?

Well the "do not JADE" strategy is encouraging walking on eggshells and turning you from a normal human being into a floormat.

Why? if you are in an argument with a normal person and they claimed that you have three arms when you clearly have only two arms, do you tell them: "Oh I'm so sorry you feel I have three arms, I would feel the same way if I saw somebody with three arms. Probably I didn't mean to have that extra arm... .". No, you just realize that they are being irrational, you show them your two arms and expect them to see that with their own eyes and agree.

It's not healthy and makes no sense to be teaching "do not JADE" in a support group that is trying to help people that deal with BPD people, because it's trying to change our behavior to please, care and enable the behavior of the mentally ill people.

[Donalith]

Ponco,

You're response of "I completely disagree with this topic" is a near-perfect example of how to disagree without using JADE. Nowhere in the JADE system is "Accept" the other person's argument. You are free to completely disagree with your BPD relationship's opinions. Since you cannot, for the most part, "beat" a BPD in a conflict, the most you may be doing by practicing JADE is using it as an outlet for your own emotions.

Why do you feel that "do not JADE" turns you into a doormat? With your argument example why is a response of "No. I don't." not valid for you? It's also "not doing JADE" and "not being a doormat.".

I've done it. I DID feel better during the process of practicing JADE but later on I usually regret it.

Respectfully,
Donalith

[Skip]

I'm in a relationship with a very emotionally healthy women. She does get emotional at times.

I've found that JADE makes matters worse for her (and in turn, us). It makes her feel that I am not listening or willing to work on whatever it is that bothers her and it makes her feel invalidated and unheard.

This last weekend we were working on plans to remodel and she got her feelings hurt over a comment I made about a color in the house that clashed. It was not a derogatory comment. It was accurate.  I listened to her, asked her what would be a better way. She told me. And she said the color did not bother her - but I was right. She was reasonable. She then thanked me. A day later she shared that she feels inadequate sometimes because her sense of color is not as good as mine. I validated her. The issue is long forgotten today.

I have occasionally "JADEd". It typically makes the problem grow and matters get worse and hard to resolve. It tends to extend conflict. Frustrate.

That's my story.

So, as I asked you (above), can you share how JADE works in your relationship? I assume you didn't have a argument over how many arms you have - lets deal with real case example.

[ponco]

Ponco,

You're response of "I completely disagree with this topic" is a near-perfect example of how to disagree without using JADE. Nowhere in the JADE system is "Accept" the other person's argument. You are free to completely disagree with your BPD relationship's opinions. Since you cannot, for the most part, "beat" a BPD in a conflict, the most you may be doing by practicing JADE is using it as an outlet for your own emotions.

Why do you feel that "do not JADE" turns you into a doormat? With your argument example why is a response of "No. I don't." not valid for you? It's also "not doing JADE" and "not being a doormat.".

I've done it. I DID feel better during the process of practicing JADE but later on I usually regret it.

Respectfully,
Donalith

Well see, responding "No. I don't" (I don't have three arms)  would invalidate her feelings, because even though I only have two arms she FEELS that I have three of them, and feelings are reality for them. So in order to make her realize that I have two arms I have to show her, so I just broke the DE of JADE because I defended my position that I only have two arms and explained her (by showing) my lack of third arm.

[Skip]

You and your wife argued over how many arms you have? And you felt that you needed to show her you had two.

If someone in my life made this accusation, I would realize that they were in an antogositic  mode, just baiting me, and defer the conversation until later.

[defogging]

Interesting thread, and I can see ponco's side except for one small thing:

I don't think "not JADEing" means giving in to your BPD partner and appeasing them.  Rather, I take it as a way to limit how crazy and out of control the argument gets.  In the past I would try to justify or defend my actions almost every time and it led to long, strange, circular logic arguments.  If I'm not interested in the crazy argument I can simply say "I understand how you feel, but I disagree" and it completely disarms her.  

Other times it's a big enough issue that I will call her on her BS and we have to go toe to toe.  In those situations I don't care as much about keeping her calm, we just gotta hash it out.

[Donalith]

I get where you're coming from. I would question why you feel the need to correct her impression about the number of arms you have. If she is incorrect by your perceptions, regardless of logical reality, then that is her problem to correct. Especially if it is not phrased as a question. If she had asked ":)o you have three arms?" you could tell her you have two. Since she phrases it as a statement, you are free to disagree and she may deal with it as she chooses. You don't need to manage her emotions or her reality for her.

[ponco]

I'm in a relationship with a very emotionally healthy women. She does get emotional at times.

I've found that JADE makes matters worse for her (and in turn, us). It makes her feel that I am not listening or willing to work on whatever it is that bothers her and it makes her feel invalidated and unheard.

This last weekend we were working on plans to remodel and she got her feelings hurt over a comment I made about a color in the house that clashed. It was not a derogatory comment. It was accurate.  I listened to her, asked her what would be a better way. She told me. And she said the color did not bother her - but I was right. She was reasonable. She then thanked me. A day later she shared that she feels inadequate sometimes because her sense of color is not as good as mine. I validated her. The issue is long forgotten today.

I have occasionally "JADEd". It typically makes the problem grow and matters get worse and hard to resolve. It tends to extend conflict. Frustrate.

That's my story.

So, as I asked you (above), can you share how JADE works in your relationship? I assume you didn't have a argument over how many arms you have - lets deal with real case example.

Well your example is not using real world demonstrable facts, because sense of style or color are subjective so in that case no one is really right or wrong. JADE doesn't apply in that example. So you asked for a real world example, I just recalled one that works out in this situation to explain why I think JADE is bad and unhealthy for the non BPD.

My wife told me that she never goes out and feels like a prisoner because I never let her out. The reality is that it's a lie, she doesn't go out because she doesn't want to drive (she totaled her car more than a year ago and doesn't want to drive ever since), I tell her that we can't go out together very often because I have a lot of work lately and remind her that we indeed go out almost every weekend, also let her know that she doesn't need my permission to go out on her own and that she stays at home and waits for me to be able to go out because she refuses to drive. By doing that I just Defended (not my fault that you don't go out as often as you'd like), Justified (I have a lot of work) and Explained (reminded her that if she would be willing to drive she could go out more often)... .

The alternative non-JADE would be "I'm sorry you feel that way, I will try to make time for us to go out more often", this only validates her perception that I'm at fault for all her problems and keeps the burden on me to make her feel better in the future.

[Donalith]

It still sounds like you're managing her emotions and reality for her.

"I don't ever get to go out and feel like a prisoner in my house"

"I'm sorry you feel that way. What do you plan to do about it?"

What do you think a response like that would evoke?

Contrariwise this thread can be summed up similarly.

"I understand how you feel about JADE. What do you plan to do instead?"

[ponco]

It still sounds like you're managing her emotions and reality for her.

"I don't ever get to go out and feel like a prisoner in my house"

"I'm sorry you feel that way. What do you plan to do about it?"

What do you think a response like that would evoke?

"I'm sorry you feel that way. What do you plan to do about it?"

What response would evoke? well since in her mind I'm the cause that she feels that way, a possible reaction from her would be to feel challenged and that I don't care about what she just said, because I just ignored everything she said and just responded that she should so something about it.

[ponco]

Contrariwise this thread can be summed up similarly.

"I understand how you feel about JADE. What do you plan to do instead?"

Stop walking on eggshells by thinking twice and going out of my way on every action I take in order to not trigger a crazy person.

[Skip]

We all get the frustration of impulsive and/or emotionally induced arguments.

However, not JADEing is not about appeasing the other person. It's about understanding human nature and responding in a way that is emotionally intelligent. Think about it. You call customer service because your android phone has a blank pink screen - how do you react when the tech says "we never had that problem, its not the phone"?

JADE is one way we create drama triangles. This is an article about how WE contribute to drama in our life (regardless of the skills or weaknesses of the other person).
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

A key point in the article is that people we prioritize being right over resolving the conflict, are drama people - high conflict.

Do you want to be a drama person - high conflict? Is that a good match for a pwBPD?

[Donalith]

Since you can rarely win an argument with a BPD or convince them of something other than what they've convinced themselves then essentially, yes you've acknowledge her feelings but not the veracity of her precept. Therefore the burden of alleviating her feelings is her own responsibility.

This can be especially hard for a caretaker.

I'm a little confused though, about the thread. Are you trying to argue that JADE and non-JADE don't work or just that they don't work for you? The first is an impossible argument and the second is a personal matter.

Either way you have our support. Dealing with a BPD personality can be particularly trouble-some and tiring and we could all use some help at times.

[ponco]

I'm arguing that adapting non-JADE as a lifestyle is unhealthy for a normal person, everyday life is full of obstacles that have to be dealt with and you shouldn't change the normal and natural way of thinking and reacting just to have a little less miserable life with your BPD partner.

The BPD partner will still be BPD and blame you for everything, the only thing that will change is your ability to defend yourself and accept to be walked over more often.

[Donalith]

I see.

Your argument is undoubtedly correct for some and incorrect for others.

One could argue that co-existing with a BPD personality is unhealthy for a "normal" person and should be avoided also, thereby avoiding the necessity to choose between JADE and non-JADE.

We each have to live life as best we can and are only accountable to ourselves in the end.

Respectfully,
Donalith

[Skip]

Well your example is not using real world demonstrable facts, because sense of style or color are subjective so in that case no one is really right or wrong.

Do you see how this is a "high conflict" response?

Do you see that the original post in the JADE thread was also high conflict?

I completely disagree with this topic.

In another words, "all of you (52 posters) are all wrong".

I only point this out to encourage you to see your role in conflict in your marriage. Nothing you are saying is upsetting me, I'm just sharing with you. I get how you come to be this way (it usually predates the relationship). I get how these relationships and a BPD partners can be so frustrating to drive someone to think this behavior works (I rode that ferry a while, myself). But it doesn't work and regardless of how difficult our partner is, if WE live in a high conflict style, things will be worse for everyone. If we don't, they still might be bad... .just not as bad.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

ponco,  Has it actually helped you and your situation? Has it made it better for you? for her? I'm curious. While it may be different for you, that doesn't mean it applies to every one and every situation. With my ex (BPD\NPD), I learned to not to even try to JADE especially in person because it just made everything worse. It seemed like he wanted to argue and argue and argue and it seemed to never end. He pretty much never listened or accepted anything I had to say in defense of myself. Anything I said that didn't match exactly what he thought/felt/believed about ME, meant I was apparently lying to him. It didn't matter if I had any proof. He would immediately deflect and project.  His "truth" was the one and only truth - everything else was a lie according to him. So what is the point of even trying to defend or justify? For me, it went absolutely nowhere. The arguments/conversations went completely circular and made absolutely no sense! For my own peace of mind and sanity, I had to stop. I know who I am. I know what I think, feel, believe. I don't need him to agree with me for me to be okay. I had to disengage for my own sanity. It later became clear to me that he was trying to get a reaction out of me and/or wanted me to manage his emotions. I refused and he would escalate things pretty badly. Really glad I left him. It was way too stressful for me. If I didn't engage, I'm a cold heartless b****. If I did engage and tried to justify, defend, etc. then he used it to "prove" how "horrible" I am and how he's a "saint" and "catch me in lies" and so on. He tried to use anything I said against me time and time again. I got sick and tired of the conflict and left.

[ponco]

Do you see how this is a "high conflict" response?

Do you see that the original post in the JADE thread was also high conflict?

In another words, "all of you (52 posters) are all wrong".

I only point this out to encourage you to see your role in conflict in your marriage. Nothing you are saying is upsetting me, I'm just sharing with you. I get how you come to be this way (it usually predates the relationship). I get how these relationships and a BPD partners can be so frustrating to drive someone to think this behavior works (I rode that ferry a while, myself). But it doesn't work and regardless of how difficult our partner is, if WE live in a high conflict style, things will be worse for everyone. If we don't, they still might be bad... .just not as bad.

Well you say that standing up for you is being "high conflict", I say that it's not high conflict but having a spine. I fear that many people that come to this forum for help and find these "tools" to improve their relationships with BPD people will find years down the road that they completely let go of their "high conflict" (JADE) ways just to realize that their BPD partner has not changed one bit and all they achieved was to be a softer, weaker version of their former shelf.

[ponco]

ponco,  Has it actually helped you and your situation? Has it made it better for you? for her? I'm curious. While it may be different for you, that doesn't mean it applies to every one and every situation. With my ex (BPD\NPD), I learned to not to even try to JADE especially in person because it just made everything worse. It seemed like he wanted to argue and argue and argue and it seemed to never end. He pretty much never listened or accepted anything I had to say in defense of myself. Anything I said that didn't match exactly what he thought/felt/believed about ME, meant I was apparently lying to him. It didn't matter if I had any proof. He would immediately deflect and project.  His "truth" was the one and only truth - everything else was a lie according to him. So what is the point of even trying to defend or justify? For me, it went absolutely nowhere. The arguments/conversations went completely circular and made absolutely no sense! For my own peace of mind and sanity, I had to stop. I know who I am. I know what I think, feel, believe. I don't need him to agree with me for me to be okay. I had to disengage for my own sanity. It later became clear to me that he was trying to get a reaction out of me and/or wanted me to manage his emotions. I refused and he would escalate things pretty badly. Really glad I left him. It was way too stressful for me. If I didn't engage, I'm a cold heartless b****. If I did engage and tried to justify, defend, etc. then he used it to "prove" how "horrible" I am and how he's a "saint" and "catch me in lies" and so on. He tried to use anything I said against me time and time again. I got sick and tired of the conflict and left.

Great response and I completely agree.

But it works in that situation because you left the person with BPD, but you can't live with a BPD and constanly walk on eggshells avoiding JADE all the time. Imagine if you had stayed with that person and never standing up to yourself through JADE? that would be horrific in the long term for your mental health.

[Donalith]

I feel you may be confusing action with method, ponco.

"High conflict" is a method or style of doing something.

"Standing up for yourself" is an action.

You can stand up for yourself without doing so in a high conflict manner. Conversely, you could passive-aggressively NOT "stand up for yourself' in a "high conflict" manner.

You're approach to the thread was in a "high conflict" manner, is what is being said, I believe.

By the way, have you noticed that all your responses thus far have been only JADE? You have an opinion, and it appears that you need to have it validated.

Ok. You could be right. Also, the ultimate expression of standing up for yourself would be leaving the relationship. Anything else, like trying the change another's mind, actions, or feelings, is manipulation and domination, clearly (to me) NOT "standing up for yourself".

[I_Am_The_Fire]

If I had stayed with him, one of us would probably be dead or in jail because my ex also was emotionally abusive and was starting to show signs of physical abuse. I could see what he was doing to me was abusive (physical threats, control, manipulation, triangulation, shaming, physical aggression, etc.) and I wouldn't stand for it anymore.

I don't really agree with equating non-JADE to walking on eggshells. To me, walking on eggshells is equivalent to managing their emotions for them and the anxiety that can go with that. If you're walking on eggshells, you're probably afraid to say anything that would rock the boat.  You don't have to JADE to stop walking on eggshells. You can disengage from the conversation for your own sanity. Towards the end of our marriage, I would just tell him that I disagreed with what he was saying. I would then calmly walk away. I stood up for myself. I'm no longer a doormat. I can voice my opinion if I want to and leave it at that.  I don't HAVE to explain myself to him or anyone else. I can just say "no" and leave it at that. I do not owe him anything such as justification or to become defensive myself. Attacking him back just escalated an already high conflict situation.  I put up and enforced my boundary as well for my own sanity. You can stand up for yourself without JADE. As stated before, it may depend on the people involved and the situation.

[ponco]

If I had stayed with him, one of us would probably be dead or in jail because my ex also was emotionally abusive and was starting to show signs of physical abuse. I could see what he was doing to me was abusive (physical threats, control, manipulation, triangulation, shaming, physical aggression, etc.) and I wouldn't stand for it anymore.

I don't really agree with equating non-JADE to walking on eggshells. To me, walking on eggshells is equivalent to managing their emotions for them and the anxiety that can go with that. If you're walking on eggshells, you're probably afraid to say anything that would rock the boat.  You don't have to JADE to stop walking on eggshells. You can disengage from the conversation for your own sanity. Towards the end of our marriage, I would just tell him that I disagreed with what he was saying. I would then calmly walk away. I stood up for myself. I'm no longer a doormat. I can voice my opinion if I want to and leave it at that.  I don't HAVE to explain myself to him or anyone else. I can just say "no" and leave it at that. I do not owe him anything such as justification or to become defensive myself. Attacking him back just escalated an already high conflict situation.  I put up and enforced my boundary as well for my own sanity. You can stand up for yourself without JADE. As stated before, it may depend on the people involved and the situation.

Do you think that disagreeing and calmly walking away when you disagreed would have been sustainable for a long term relationship with this person if you decided to stay?

[Skip]

ponco,

Are you looking for advice on how to better cope and manage your relationship?  Or are you wanting to educate those of us who try not to JADE that we are wrong?  This board is about problem solving in our relationships - not so much to pick apart convention psychology tools on general principles.

My wife told me that she never goes out and feels like a prisoner because I never let her out. The reality is that it's a lie... .

One could say:

1. This is not a fact issue. You're wife is experiencing an impulsive emotion and feels like she is trapped in the home. Her feelings are real (so are yours). Feeling aren't always logical. With BPD, they often aren't logical.

2. Taking her often impulsive emotions personally is probably a little thin skinned for a male in a relationship, or a male in a relationship with a women with BPD traits. Some of this is normal male/female behavior. Some of this is frustrating BPD behavior. You know she had BPD when you married her. Emotional resiliency is really important part of the strength we need in these relationships. As long as you are in - you need to be strong. Benevolent, but strong.

Personally, I try not to let my partners (or my ex partners) emotional ups and downs drive my emotions. Instead, I try to be supportive (not a doormat, but supportive - there is a difference). This is what we mean by having strength in a relationship. It takes a great deal more strength to be in a BPD relationship. You can't get crazed by every emotional impulse your partner experiences. You will burnout. We've all been there - there is a better way.

I'd respond to her comment:

"I never goes out and I feel like a prisoner because you never let her out"... .

With:

"That sucks. Whats going on. What is making you feel this way, today."... .

This is not a tough one. Not sure where that would go, but typically it would be something like:

I really wanted to go to the Brown's birthday party last Friday and you had to work. I just saw all the photos on Facebook and it looks like I missed a great time.

-- or --

I really want to go to the Brown's birthday party next Friday and you are going to be out of town. It was the same for the Smith's birthday party.

These things can be worked with. No biggy. However, it really helps to ask the questions rather than trigger and go off on some defensive tangent.

I feel bad about that, too. Let me see those Facebook photos. Wow. It does look like fun.
Can you give me earlier notice on future parties, I'll adjust my schedule if I know __ in advance.
In the times that I can't, you should go with Carla - uber over there.
Blah, blah, blah.

You might get push back on some or all of this... .depends on the mood... .easiest response is to agree and ask for alternatives or say you want to think about it and postpone the discussion. This will give her time to get to baseline, reason, evaluate. She may drop it. She may come back with ideas. She may save it all until the next emotional downswing.

All of these are OK. Move on without bias. It's just a day in the life.

[defogging]

I'll add an example where JADE can only lower the intensity of an argument but doesn't help solve anything:

Discussing finances with my uBPDw is painful.  Anything she wants to buy is the most important thing we need, anything I want is disallowed.  One thing in particular is that I have a student loan from before our marriage, and it happens to have the highest interest rate of any of our debts.  Thankfully our financial situation is good, we have few debts, and at times we've had excess cash flow to pay down this loan.

I manage the finances (thank goodness).  When I've made extra payments to get the balance down I've been verbally attacked.  She just sees this loan as BAD - it's my fault, it's my responsibility, and she doesn't want to put any money towards it at all.  In this situation I have to defend what I'm doing because it's common sense.  That's just the way finances work, pay down the highest interest rate loan first.  She would let the loan sit there and the principal grow if she had it her way, while we pay down her car loan at a lower interest rate or buy things for the house.

The arguments spun out of control to the point where she accused me of stealing money from her in order to pay down MY debt, including smear campaigns to both our families, our financial adviser, and our T.  Playing the victim.  And of course, zero acknowledgement that I have a higher salary (which we share) because of this "BAD" debt.  (the financial adviser agreed with me, leading to her screaming and crying in that meeting, which was embarrassing)

I don't know what JADE would help with in a situation like this, other than calming her down at the moment.  When dealing with finances it is numbers and cold, hard facts.  Unfortunately, it is now a conversation I have to avoid as it is so volatile.  I can't simply say "I understand your feelings" because it doesn't help us financially.

I do think JADE is a great tool and it has helped my interactions with my uBPDw.  But I think there is validity in this thread in that it isn't a solve-everything tool.  I think that's my biggest frustration in my relationship, I am getting better at keeping things calm around the house but there is no way to move forward on everyday family issues when it should be SO EASY to have an adult conversation about them.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Not justifying, arguing, defending or explaining my actions was a difficult habit to break. When met with criticism or blame it is natural to JADE.  However, once I practiced no JADEing, I got out of the victim position.  

In the past, I felt on the ropes when I encountered criticism or blame and felt the need to JADE.  For example, I like to use reusable bags when I shop, my husband does not.  Him - Why do you want to use those bags?   You look like a bag lady and there is so much waste already, you aren’t really making a difference. Me - I know you don’t like to use the canvas bags, but I do.     This really happened and that was that.  No JADEing.  This is just an everyday example, but it works on all kinds of things.  It puts us on kind of equal footing.  I acknowledge that he prefers one thing, but I prefer something different.  No justifying, arguing, defending or explaining.

I think JADEing made me feel like more of a doormat.  As if I did not have a right to my personal preferences and had to justify my actions, argue my decisions, defend my opinions, explain my positions.  

Perhaps in your case, you can say something like I understand you want to get out more, perhaps while I am working you could call Uber, phone a friend, sister (whatever may work for her).  You wouldn’t be JADEing or taking responsibility for her problem, but putting the responsibility back on her.

Best of luck.  

[Cat Familiar]

Not justifying, arguing, defending or explaining my actions was a difficult habit to break. When met with criticism or blame it is natural to JADE.  However, once I practiced no JADEing, I got out of the victim position... . 

I think JADEing made me feel like more of a doormat.  As if I did not have a right to my personal preferences and had to justify my actions, argue my decisions, defend my opinions, explain my positions.  

I totally agree with this. It's taken me a long time to quit JADEing, but I have such a much better sense of self esteem now when I don't.

JADEing is so reminiscent of being a child and my BPD mother demanding answers from me.

Now I realize I don't need to apologize, justify, defend, explain anything. It comes from an attitude of I did it, I made that choice--do you have a problem with that?

Also I don't say "I'm sorry you feel that way" because that sounds like I'm apologizing for circumstances not within my control.

[Jessica84]

We've all been accused of crazy things. It is natural to want to defend yourself. But in doing so, we give them more ammo and we end up having to defend ourselves on new claims. Proving I'm right and you're wrong will get us nowhere. It goes in circles and gets worse as more things are said.

This is because they aren't getting what they need in the first place - empathy.

Choosing not to JADE requires us to resist the urge the fact-check and correct our partners. It doesn't mean agreeing with them - it means listening, and collecting data so we know where they're coming from. Then we can use that info to apply SET--> "Sorry you feel stuck here. That must feel lonely/awful. What can we do about it? have you thought about driving again?"

Not getting defensive or over-explaining one's self is a good practice in general. I avoid JADEing with nons all the time now - co-workers, friends, family. People just want to be heard. They want their pain acknowledged. They want support.

[Meili]

I think that the wrong issue is being addressed here. I don't think that we need to discuss why and how not JADE'ing works. There are a lot of threads and a workshop on that topic already.

I think that the underlying issue, ponco's perceived need to prove his wife is incorrect is the real issue here.

We tend to put so much weight on the opinions of those that we love that they overshadow our own beliefs. Take the three arms for example. Why would the wife thinking that he has three arms need to be any argument. Does he question whether or not he has three arms? Because that's not valid, there is no need to validate the idea that he has three arms. We never want to validate the invalid after all.

The example about her feeling like a prisoner plays out the same way. Trying to convince her that she's wrong invalidates her and only serves to escalate the problem. A much better plan is to not JADE, validate the valid, and switch the subject.

Not JADE'ing isn't the true problem here. Finding healthier ways to communicate and dealing with the insecurity that leads to the need to be right seems more appropriate to deal with.