Captor or prisoner?

[Meili]

My mind is so blocked right now that this sounds as abstract as "don't do things wrong". I need to find some peace before I'm able to listen, think and apply what's needed.

Can you explain this a bit more?

I know that a lot of what we talk about around here is far easier to say than do; especially when emotionally aroused. Perhaps if we had a better understanding about what is going on inside of you we can help you find a sense of peace.

[Radcliff]

My mind is so blocked right now that this sounds as abstract as "don't do things wrong". I need to find some peace before I'm able to listen, think and apply what's needed.

Thanks, though

I think I see what you're saying, Joe, or at least I can think of two possibilities:

Are you saying that there is so much in that list of instructions it's overwhelming to read and understand it?
OR
Are you saying that you understand the list, but figuring out how to actually do all that stuff in real life is overwhelming?

I can see how either could be the case!  Let us know.

WW

[JoeBPD81]

The list is not the problem, I AM overwhelmed, I can't read things and make sense of them. Yesterday I couldn't focus until everybody was asleep, and then I read for 20 minutes.

My exams are in 10 days. Here I can watch the Superbowl the next day, on Monday, but I have an exam then, and after that, dentist! So I will probably get a Spoiler before I get the chance to watch it.
I need to cross some things out of my list, like finishing the exams, for example.

The main problem, as I see it, is that we don't have a project of being a couple, or a family. We just have the present situation that we can't change. I'm here because I love her. She's here because she can't go anywhere else. If she is not my girlfriend and she has no interest (or hope) on being it in the future... .Then they are 3 people living off me who can't be even polite to me. And I'm the biggest tool in town.

Is that the big picture?

[DaddyBear77]

I'm here because I love her. She's here because she can't go anywhere else.

Joe, when you’re able to, it might help to take a deeper look at these two statements. There are likely many answers to the question “why am I here?” And likewise, if you were able to truly see inside her  brain (you can’t), you’d likely see a much more complex answer to “why is she here?” as well.

[Notwendy]

I think what you are trying to say is that you are in "survival" mode right now and can only handle so much. The instructions are great, but take some mental energy. It seems you have exams right now and that takes what concentration you have.

You may still be making progress for yourself- such as being aware of your choices instead of them being automatic. Maybe right now you may feel you need to be on cruise control until you get through exams and then later get back to what you may want to work on. Deciding to put things on the back burner until exams are done is a conscious choice.

We can't look inside someone's mind and know all the thoughts or motives they may have to stay with someone. It seems that the exams are more imminent at the moment.

[JoeBPD81]

Joe, when you’re able to, it might help to take a deeper look at these two statements. There are likely many answers to the question “why am I here?” And likewise, if you were able to truly see inside her  brain (you can’t), you’d likely see a much more complex answer to “why is she here?” as well.

You are right, things are not that simple, they never are.

Why am I here?

• - I'm also trapped in a way, because the alternative to this situation is for me unthinkable.
  - I get attached and I restist a change.
  - I hope and want to make this work. Behind the thorny bushes of BPD I see a frightened girl that is extremelly sensible and intelligent.
  - I believe that she deserves better that the life of abuse she's had. I want to believe that it is possible she has that.
  - I fear that she will get worse or kill herself. I fear that the older kid could hurt her phisically, or the younger kid.
  - I fear the life these kids could have with their abusive alcocholic old father (he's 60 something).
  - I want to believe her when she says she loves me very much. I want to believe she can get better.

Why is she here?

• - She sees that after paying the school (that is so good for the kids) and food, she has no money to pay any rent. But:
  - She wouldn't have started this RS if she didn't love me.
  - She trusts me with the kids, and she says that I'm a great dad often.
  - She doesn't want to think about her love for me, because she has no choice. AND because she thinks she doesn't deserve anything good, and because she thinks she can't contribute anything to me.
  - She doesn't believe that she will ever be better, or that she would be a good partner for me or anyone. But she's also told me (on ocassion) that when she makes up her mind, the thought of living far from me is unbearable.
  - She can't love me, because she knows she's not good to me, and she doesn't believe she can. She can't not love me, because it implicates giving up everything. So she is trapped both ways.

She needs to not need me in order to be OK with our RS. If she had a good job and could cupport the kids herself, then she would see if she still would like to live with me or not. Not living with a man would take most of her anxiety away, and she would not have reason to hate me. Also she would have more reason to believe in herself.

I don't see any improvement unless she gets a job, or she radically accepts the situation and starts valuing life as it is. I can't make any of that happen, I can only change myself, how I manage things and my own emotions.

It gets really complicated when you add the kids to the equation. As any mom/dad here knows. They conciously say that if they don't get what they want, they are gonna spoil the day/weekend/summer for the whole family. "I'm gonna annoy all of you until I get (this or that)". And they do just that mostly without saying it. They expertly take appart any atom of happyness that she has, every hour of every day.

We know they have problems and that's the way they fight them. But it takes a large ammount of wisemind not to react like Hommer Simpson.

S6 has extended his hyperactivity to nights, he wakes up in the middle of the night and starts playing, waking everybody with the noise. My GF was desperate this morning, very pissed and saying "I can't stand it anymore! I haven't slept in 3 days, you can't wake up the whole family at 4 AM, I have trouble enough sleeping on my own... .I can't take it anymore, I need to rest, we all need to rest!" And S6 completely ignores the words and the desperation in her voice and says "Mommy, can you find me this Lego Ewok to take it to school today?" and runs to play with another thing, without taking breakfast or getting dressed for school.

It is a constant conflict with them. They don't do any of their chores, unless they are forced and reminded 20 times of each step. If you say "put on your socks and shoes". 30 minutes later you will need to take the socks and give them in hand, and remind them for the 20th time. Then 15 minutes later, you will see they have the shoes in front, but they have been distracted and need 20 reminders too that they now have to put on the shoes too. Every single time, every single day. And they get very offended that we repeat things so many times. "Leave me alone, stupid, I already know !" It takes the energy of anyone.

[DaddyBear77]

They conciously say that if they don't get what they want, they are gonna spoil the day/weekend/summer for the whole family. "I'm gonna annoy all of you until I get (this or that)". And they do just that mostly without saying it.

Of course they do! Kids are instinctive animals, wired for survival. They haven't fully developed the reasoning and communication skills to ask for what they really want ("I want to be loved and cared for!" "I want you to pay attention to me!" - so, instead, they focus on these seemingly stupid little things like legos and toys. And by getting you to jump and dance and cater to their every whim, they've effectively obtained the things they really need (the love and caretaking, the attention, etc).

They expertly take appart any atom of happyness that she has, every hour of every day.

My wife also believes that our daughter is purposely taking away her happiness, but I tend to doubt this. The end result of a tantrum or irrational argument about legos can be that no one is really "happy" but I don't think that's the end game. Every situation is different, though.

We know they have problems and that's the way they fight them. But it takes a large ammount of wisemind not to react like Hommer Simpson.

Bingo. Wisemind. You've got it.


Joe, this is really really hard. I really get that. All of the kid stuff, watching someone suffer the way your pwBPD suffers. You want everyone to be safe, happy, comfortable, well provided for. It was clear from the list of stuff you said in your last post. These people count on you so much.

So, it comes down to one important question:

Can any of these things you want to happen, REALLY happen, if you go down with the ship?

[Meili]

It looks to me like the big picture is that you are being controlled by your own fear, obligation and guilt.

You have listed things that you believe would greatly help her, but keep her from having to do those things for herself.

You also listed things that you are afraid of as the motivation for your choices.

She is not trapped, she does have choices and options. Neither of you may like those options, but they do exist.

So, to go back to the original post in this thread, from where I sit, it does look like you are both captors and prisoners. But, it results from your own, respective, fears not the other person.

[JoeBPD81]

Yeah, I listed some reasons to admit they are not simple, not balanced, not wise. I know a huge part is FOG.

Now what?

[Meili]

Now you figure out how to get out of the FOG.

I know, those are easy words to say. If it only were as easy to get out of it. But, it starts with understanding the transactional dynamics at play here and the roles that we play within those dynamics.

When we understand our role, then we can start to make the changes necessary to have a different dynamic.

[JoeBPD81]

I have trouble accepting that one person asumes he/she has the right to make another suffer.

I don't get angry, because it entitles me thinking I'm somewhat superior to the other person, and that I have the right to make him/her pay for my anger. Even if it's the other person's fault, either it can be fixed or it can't, but calling someone an ashole is not going to fix anything. So the only purpose is to get it out of my system at the expense of making that person offended without any constructive goal. Actually, 9 out of 10 times, it's gonna make everything worse.

So, if it's someone I don't care at all about, then it is possible. If it's someone I care about, or that I have to see everyday, it's unthinkable, if it's someone I love, it's impossible.

So, if someone who is supposed to love me attacks me, my gut tells me she doesn't love me at all.

I see people getting angry with people they love all the time. So I know that's normal and I'm not. But it's hard to not interpret the situation as I feel it.

---

Example: I'm talking to the kids about a scene from my chilhood. My brother is 11 years older than me, and I was telling them that if I knew I was gonna beat  him at a videogame (Spectrum times!) I would be ready to run, because he would hit me, because he didn't know how to lose (our kids can't handle it either). They asked me "What did you do when he hit you?", and I was answering... .My GF, the mother of the boys was listening, got closer and said "I bet you cried like a little girl".

Who does that? Are we in high school and she's a bully?

If it were a friend that we tease each other all the time, it wouldn't matter. But I'm paying her rent, and she's not talking to me and she breaks her silence to say that? What the H? I was talking about a 18 year old hitting a 7 year old, I'm trying to teach the kids that they can't get aggresive for losing at a game... .And she, who has been bullied, that's what she has to say to me?

How much is her BPD and how much is that she really despises me?

[Notwendy]

I have trouble accepting that one person asumes he/she has the right to make another suffer.



They don't, and also the person who is suffering does not have to let them do that, unless they are captive.

Are you her captive? You aren't dependent or stuck in the classical sense. In a way she actually is. You pay the rent, support the family- she is the dependent one.

I agree, it would be cruel to kick them all out on the street- and I am not suggesting that- but you- yourself- are not her captive.

Yes, she may be doing unkind things, but from a mental perspective- seeing oneself as a victim- takes away the perspective that their are choices. Your choices are not easy ones- but there are choices- to disengage when she insults you. Have you ever read the Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse? They are written from the male ( abuser) female perspective but the partners could be any gender. She has some interesting advice for handling that.

Why is she being cruel to you when you are seemingly doing so much for her?

I think that the drama triangle makes sense and that someone with BPD sees themselves in victim perspective. I also think projection is at play. In actuality, she is the one dependent on you- and this can affect her probably already low self esteem- and so she projects this hurt on to you. I actually think it is people projecting their own pain that causes them to be hurtful. Our choice is to not allow people to treat us poorly.

[DaddyBear77]

Joe,

I understand what you’re saying, and I agree that calling person names or being offensive isn’t going to help. It really is about “getting it out” and there’s certianly a price to pay.

However, anger and frustration are natural normal emotions brought on by the difficult, nearly impossible situations created inside a BPD relationship. To say that we refuse to be angry with someone is just as dysfunctional as saying we refuse to cry when a loved one dies, or we refuse to feel happy when someone is kind to us. The emotions will happen. They need to. They are our humanity. If we ignore how angry we feel when someone does or says something hurtful or unkind, it’s accumulates. It grows. And then, one day, unless we find a healthy outlet elsewhere, we may end up doing something we regret.

Your pwBPD has learned / chosen some really unhealthy outlets for their feelings. The angry feelings can come from hurts long since passed, but they feel like they’re happening in the moment. They find the perceived source of that hurt, and attack it with everything they have. The toolset of angry mean hurtful words has value to them. Usually, it takes their extremely painful internal emotional state and externalizes it. There’s also a side benefit of creating an alternate argument that distracts from the original pain. You become a player in this conflict, and over time, your reactions become predictable and expected, so you become a “safe” way to get out of pain.

I don’t think it means they don’t love you. In fact, I think it means they trust you to “safely” give them an outlet.

This is only my perspective based mostly on my own experiences. I may be wrong.

[JoeBPD81]

I got a divorce after years of (so much milder) that. I could not go back to believing she loved me, and maybe she did.

Maybe I'm not built for a relationship.

[Meili]

Notwendy and DaddyBear77 have made some really good points.

Have you taken a look at the Lesson on surviving disrespect lately?

[JoeBPD81]

Notwendy and DaddyBear77 have made some really good points.

Have you taken a look at the Lesson on surviving disrespect lately?

They do, it was rude not to thank them. So thanks a lot.

Which Patricia Evans book you recommend the most?

Just today she told me that she will be forever grateful to a friend of her mother's, who took her family in for some 2-3 months when there was a problem with their house and the bank. It's getting close to 2 years plus all the weekends and everytime they wanted to live at my place before that, the time I give them a roof (And everything, it's more their house than mine). And I don't get gratitude, but insults.

Thanks for the reminder too. About the lesson.

[Meili]

Oh, I didn't mean to come across as I was saying that you should thank them! I'm sorry! I was just stressing that they have made some great comments.

I honestly can't comment on Patricia Evans. I've heard people say that “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” is helpful though.

[Notwendy]

That's the book I would recommend. It describes the different forms of verbal abuse and gives recommendations for how to address it.

It was an eye opener for me. My idea of abuse was physically harming someone or neglecting a child or elderly persons basic needs. None of this happened during my childhood or my marriage - yet why were the relationships so hurtful?

Verbal abuse was so much the norm growing up and we were expected to allow it. In a similar manner so was my H vebally abusive but hey I had a roof over my head and he supported the family so he was such a nice guy right? Well this book made it clearer.

A local domestic abuse shelter was selling T shirts as a fund raiser. I bought one. It said "love doesn't hurt". I kept that shirt in my car for a long time to remind me of that.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks, I will have a look.

I know abuse is not only physical. The divorce I tell you about, my Therapist labeled my wife as abusive. I was a second rate citizen at my home, we didn't have the same rights, but as she made more money than me, I thought she was entitled to a bit more. Anyone thought we were the perfect couple, but also, when problems started, everyone was not surprised that I couldn't take it anymore. It hurt that everyone told me about how selfish she was, and that they were thinking how long could I take it. I felt so guilty about leaving, but no one wanted to address that guilt, because they thougth my leaving was justified.

Regarding my current GF (my 2nd romantic relationship overall!). She was abused to a point that she reported her husband, and the DA asked for 5 years of prison for him. We was the bread winner, and king of the house. And his word was law. She took it because that's what she had lived at her FO, she thought she deserved it.

I wanted to show her that she deserves to be treated with kindness and love, and respect. I never say as much as "hey, I pay your rent, could you talk to me with a bit more respect?" I don't think that paying gives me the right to yell or call her names, or get away with anything. But it just makes it worse when she doesn't respect me. If I was wealthy, maybe I wouldn't mind, but it takes a big toll on me just to make ends meet. So literaly I feel like I'm giving my life to them, and I'm treated as an unwated visit.

I guess when you think you have been a "doormat", it's easieer to go to the other extreme, than to just being respectful and asertive. It's easier to go to a mode of "hiting first before they hit you". If I was nasty back, she would feel less shame after, and maybe things would go better, but I don't want to play that game. I don't want to be that person. 

[Notwendy]

I have been a doormat since childhood- I was expected to be one growing up and took that into my marriage. I think there are people who don't abuse their position in a relationship and then, there are people who do- they cross boundaries. We don't have to get to that level ( abusive or busting boundaries) but I think these are people we need to have strong boundaries with- as they don't respect subtle ones.

One aspect of boundaries is that they don't have to have the same ones for everyone, but I think we have to have basic core ones as well. We are more formal in the workplace, more guarded with strangers and more intimate with people closest to us. Boundaries include a "sensor" for other people's boundaries. I think what gets us into relationships with people with poor boundaries is our own- and our sensor may be off or we don't listen to it. If we grow up in a FOO with dysfunction, poor boundaries may feel familiar to us and that plays a part in our choice of romantic partners.

Considering the Karpman triangle, it makes sense that people oscillate between the extremes- rescuer, persecutor, victim. What we hope is to not act at either one of the corners of this triangle. All roles are dysfunctional and all roles lead to the drama. You were "victim" in your last relationship. Now you are "rescuer". Your GF was "victim" and now she is "persecutor" and the two of you feel like a victim of the other.

I think DB made a good point about feeling angry. I used to avoid anger as well. But anger itself isn't the problem- it is how we respond to it. One reason we would feel angry is because someone violated our boundary. An appropriate response might be to enforce the boundary. Yelling, screaming, violence would be inappropriate- unless in physical self defense.

The source of my H's tendency to verbal abuse was his own FOO. I wonder if people who experience that tend to two extremes- dish it out, or take it without defense, but I think there is a middle ground- boundaries. The Patricia Evans' books had some advice as well as helped me to identify it.

It felt unnatural to me to develop stronger boundaries but when we are with people who don't recognize or respect that VA is a boundary violation, I had to have them. I also didn't want to go to the other side and become VA myself, but my sense of being a good, nice person was basically to be a co-dependent doormat. I also think this attracted the kind of people who would not respect me.

I think also we may oscillate between the sides until we gain our balance. My H did not like the new "tougher" me but he was used to walking all over me and I didn't want to do that anymore. There were times I went to the other extreme with my BPD mother- just yelled at her. It was a shock probably to both of us. Learning new skills is like learning any other skills- we may fall of the bicycle before we learn to ride it.

Being assertive is a work in progress. I still sometimes back down, but more and more I try to listen to my feelings. I don't always get it right away. One thing we can work on is our reactivity- we don't have to agree to something right away, or get angry or say no right away- we can say " I need to think about this".
 

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to read and answer. It really helps and I feel less alone and desperate.

[Notwendy]

Glad it helped. I think we all find ourselves in these kinds of tough places and hope to improve the situation.

[Notwendy]

I am still working on identifying angry feelings. I am not good at that. What happens now is sometimes a delayed understanding. Something happened at work the other day that crossed a boundary for me. Before, I may not have even registered it, but I am more aware of boundaries. I felt an odd sense of discomfort, didn't react in the moment. ( good thing - I want my job!) . A day later I began to process it. Now ,a couple of days later and I realize, yes, I am angry and I know why.

What happened will not happen again, as I have figured out how to handle it calmly and firmly if it does. But I am still learning, and slowly. I have the same feeling when discussions at home get circular or the line gets crossed verbally. My response is to stop the conversation- "I need to process this- I need a few minutes to gain my balance". Using "I " statements and not reacting emotionally doesn't add fuel to the drama. If someone is angry and disregulating, that isn't a good time to reason with them. Also, if I am feeling upset, I am not in a good position to communicate either. So, sometimes a time out is the most helpful- and not just at home but in other situations- like work, your school, etc.

[pearlsw]

Hi Joe,

There is a lot of good stuff going on in this thread already and I find it is giving me a lot to think about in my own situation so all I'll add for now are some hugs to help you feel some kindness and support at this difficult time!         

You'll make it. I believe in you!

wishing you all the best, pearl.

p.s. are you gonna watch the Superbowl?

[Meili]

Joe, are there any boundaries for the relationship? By this, I do not mean your personal boundaries, but an actual agreement with your gf as to how the relationship will function, and what is and is not allowed.

[Radcliff]

Hi Joe, you have administration exams coming up in just a few days.  Is that on Monday?  Or sooner?  Good luck!

WW

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks to all.

Pearlsw - I'll watch the SB sooner or later. If I wanna go out and watch it live, it would be at 3AM (ending at 7 AM) and the bars don't put it in English, and it feels fake. The local sportcasters don't know as much as Al Michaels and Co. Also, I don't know anyone in my town who likes it too, so I would go alone, and it's not very appealing.

So usually I invite people at home the next monday evening, and I watch it with "game food". But this year I have an exam and a dentist appointment this monday, so I might do it on tuesday. I won't go near internet until I watch it. Now, instead of guests I have my GF and kids.

Meili - No, there are no rules. Any attempt has ended with "I told you I'm not relationship material, you can't say I lied to you, I told you I have nothing to give back, and I do my best to be civil and polite, even if I s**ck at doing just that. You deserve better, and you don't have to put up with us". In calmer times, we've talkied, and she says she can't think past this evening, thinking about tomorrow or next week makes her want to throw herself to the subway tracks.

She's basically fighting her will to die 24/7.

Wentworth - Thanks a lot! I have college exams on Monday and Thursday, the one on Monday is not scary, the one on thursday is the one I need to study a lot more, and luck!

They anounced the Administration one just this week, it should be in 4 months tops. But then they can delay it as much as they want. I should start studying for that one right away. No rest for the wicked! It is a very tricky multilpe choice exam with about 80 questions. All about some laws, and how to apply them. It is designed to get rid of 90% of the aplicants. Most years they have to cancel some questions because in their efffort to make them tricky, they made them nonsensical (meaning, there is no right answer, or there are 2-3 right answers). It is stressing because thousands of people take it, and it's all of nothing. We won't have another oportunity in years.

I have to find motivation to stick to it. And it would be great not to have opposition at home. On the other hand, if I lived alone, I wouldn't need this promotion.

[Meili]

That must be a tough spot to be in. Have you tried to approach reaching agreements using D.E.A.R.M.A.N.?

We suggest using the D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique when you are trying to get something that you want or need (like quiet time to study). It helps communicate what is needed and allows for negotiation.

[Radcliff]

Good luck on Monday and Thursday, Joe!

WW

[formflier]

Good luck on Monday and Thursday, Joe!

WW

I've finally decided to hop in this thread.  I think WW has found the priority!  Kick butt on Monday and Tuesday (and I think somewhere in there you are going to need to say AAAAHHHHH at the dentist... . )

I'm going to challenge you to be especially kind to yourself the next few days.   Go to those coffee shops and study.  Do whatever it takes to show up as your best you for those exams.

I've studied your thread some this evening and I think you have been getting great advice.  Can we (you) focus "like a laser" on those exams and lets pick up the "big picture" discussion after exams are done.

FF