The Chat - She's scared of me

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm confused (well I'm not really) as well. W tells me she is scared yet she leaves me to look after the kids 5x a week to go out. She allowed me to take them away for the week whilst she went to a Christian conference and she did not stop me taking them on holiday abroad for a week. Is the abuse claim to a huge diversion tactic to play victim and destract attention away from the fact that she's had an affair and now she's writing history in her head in reverse... .feeling = fact.

Assigning cause and effect to a BPD's words/actions is a slippery slope.

However, I have had the same exact accusations thrown at me as the reason for her moving out (which coincided two weeks after finding out she was talking up some guy late at night), then three weeks later I'm restraining her from clobbering our kids after they got home from a family party where they didn't want her to drive because she had some drinks. She took offense to them implying she was drunk and thought they didn't want her to drive because they were using my car, thereby choosing to protect my property against her always questionable motives.

All I can say is that I relate to the maddeningly confusing head spinning.

J 

[Jeffree]

I'm confused (well I'm not really) as well. W tells me she is scared yet she leaves me to look after the kids 5x a week to go out. She allowed me to take them away for the week whilst she went to a Christian conference and she did not stop me taking them on holiday abroad for a week. Is the abuse claim to a huge diversion tactic to play victim and destract attention away from the fact that she's had an affair and now she's writing history in her head in reverse... .feeling = fact.

Assigning cause and effect to a BPD's words/actions is a slippery slope.

However, I have had the same exact accusations thrown at me as the reason for her moving out (which coincided two weeks after finding out she was talking up some guy late at night), then three weeks later I'm restraining her from clobbering our kids after they got home from a family party where they didn't want her to drive because she had some drinks. She took offense to them implying she was drunk and thought they didn't want her to drive because they were using my car, thereby choosing to protect my property against her always questionable motives.

All I can say is that I relate to the maddeningly confusing head spinning.

J 

[Enabler]

The divorce threat is the perfect restraining order or stick to send a non into a tailspin. If I actually had some balls and didn’t have kids I’d be really keen to show the BS card loud and proud. Which takes us full circle to the original juncture!

[Jeffree]

The divorce threat is the perfect restraining order or stick to send a non into a tailspin.

Not all nons, but I get your point.

A BPD's greatest weapon against almost all nons is threatening to harm that which is most important to them. Unfortunately, that's the kind of information shared with them during the good days that they file away to use against us later.

I love to golf. At first my STBx thought that was awesome because in the beginning she thought everything I did was awesome.

Fast forward a year, then she would complain that my first thought on the weekends was to golf instead of wanting to do something with her.

She'd try and get frisky with me when it was time for me to get ready to go, and I'd be in this conundrum. Then when I gave in and spent the day with her, she'd complain that it wasn't REALLY what I wanted to do because she could tell I wanted to golf instead and she had to ask me to do something instead of me asking her.

This eventually became that I never wanted to spend time with her.

She created all this walking on eggshells for me to golf, when 95% of the time I was done with 18 holes BEFORE she even woke up.

J

[formflier]

  If I actually had some balls

Ummm... .     

So... .this may be beyond the scope of bpdfamily's terms and conditions.

You have kids... .so you had a pair at some point (I would assume)... .

So... .perhaps a visit with your doctor... .perhaps some alone time reflecting on if those things down yonder are good for something other than biologically creating kids.

Figure out what you have first... .we can guide you on how best to use after that.

FF

dude... .

[Enabler]

Ha ha ha FF you did well there. I am a Jaffa now, I figured 3 was me done.  I just had one of those powerful little daydreams where I had a role play with W where I actually showed the BS card and said “right, that’s it, we’re telling the kids. There’s too many lies floating around now (tonight D7 asks why W is not coming to an extended family gather to which W replies “mummy has things to do”.) we are telling the kids and you are going to take the fall for it.”

Jeffree, my conundrum looks more like “when I met you, you were sociable and had loads of hobbies... .I made it virtually impossible to do anything as I loved you a little bit less every time you did anything for yourself and not for me... .now you don’t do anything and I think you’re unexciting!”

Golf... .I know wentworth agrees but maybe for different reasons... .it’s a great game for the 3 shots out of 150 a round I nail... .not dissimilar to live with a peBPD. Maybe I’m easily pleased and have low expectations as to what constitutes what I deserve!

[Cat Familiar]

Not trying to hijack, just a quick question for Cat... .how long do you think it took before your husband came around to some of this warmth? 

Quick response: it was an evolving process. For a long time, I tried hugging him and it was like hugging a mannequin. I just kept on being me and acting warm, friendly and somewhat affectionate and now he's able to receive. Quick answer: months, maybe a year or more.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes and no, there is a glacial direction of travel in our divorce  and some things have been “done” by her to achieve a few divorce like objectives, so it certainly feels like a divorce even though the commitment to the cause is not consistent or intelligent.

I have not sort to achieve any of her divorce aspirations other than agree to attend meetings where my best interests require it, do work on the house where mine and my kids best interests denote it or avoid confrontation where my police history denotes it (I don’t have a police record and my job requires I don’t so it is imperative I avoid false accusations).

So now I spend a lot of time making sure I don’t make things worse... .and I suppose emotional caretaking but hopefully effectively... .I’m yet to see the positive effects so far other than in my own contentment.

It seems like a lot of these BPD marriages involve a power struggle; often the pwBPD imagines themselves as "victim" and their spouse as "perpetrator" when it really seems like a cover for their own manipulative behavior.

She's got you in a bind. You have to be on your best behavior or she will move forward with divorce threats. She might be aware enough to realize that should she actually follow through with the divorce, she has a lot to lose. Therefore it's really not in her best interest to do anything that moves it forward.

[Enabler]

Cat, I believe she is somewhere in between but for me, that’s dangerous, she has the will, but wavering on the inclination. She can’t get momentum. She does have the capacity to get good things that she wants over the line, like changing jobs, previous house moves, getting kids treated at hospital. I do have to be on my best behaviour! 

[Cat Familiar]

So she has you in a holding pattern. It's all on her terms. I bet that's been a recurrent pattern in your relationship.

[formflier]

Remember,

pwBPD generally have issues with "executive function", especially as it ties into their emotional ideas.

A divorce is a complicated process, which likely seems simple to a pwBPD when they are honked off... .then later they realize they need to be rescued.

Plus after being "honked off" they don't "want" the divorce so much.

So... .when they "want it" they don't have executive function to pull if off and when they have executive function, they "don't want it".

I would imagine that is confusing to them.

FF

[Enabler]

So FF, “Love must be tough” arrived and I dived in on the commute home... .W goes out (again) so I figure I could get another slug in. What happens? She comes home earlier than expected and catches me reading. I hear the Back door and quickly hide the book like a kid who’s been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. She mentions “enjoy your reading” as a parting message when she goes to bed to which I reply “I will”. Today she’s got the jump with me.

The book makes a lot of sense and actually the Christian slant is enormously helpful, not only because I have Christian values when it comes to marriage but also because many of the excuses and rationalisations she has used from a religious perspective are mentioned and critiqued in the book.

I feel like I have opened the cage for her, maybe I need to open the door wider and actually push her out the “cage”! I’m not sure she will like it out there.

Found a. Email from 2007 the other day. I will share it tomorrow. For anyone who kicks themselves for not knowing sooner there was a problem... .well this might make them feel better about themselves.

Thanks for the book recommendation, very good so far

[ozmatoz]

Now that I'm aware of BPD... .I am recalling some moments from 17 years ago when we first started dating that never really got resolved in my mind.  As a young dude at the time, I shrugged it off... .now many of these moments make sense and its EYE OPENING!

Looking forward to reading the email... .

hang in there,
-Oz

[Enabler]

I see it like discovering the enigma machine at the end of WW2 being able to decode all of that nonsense you had stored in the archives.

Tomorrow’s email sums it up.

[formflier]

Thanks for the book recommendation, very good so far

I'm glad you are finding it helpful.  :)obson seems like a pretty straight forward guy.  Able to "merge" common sense and psychology and Christian perspective.

A lot of his stuff I was sort of like "well of course... ." and then was embarrassed that I hadn't thought it through.

A FF warning/disclaimer:  That book is NOT about BPD... it's more of a general thing for your education and "mindset".  So, I would want you to take on the big picture stuff and "let's talk" before you start trying the interactions (small picture stuff).

Big picture:  Once your wife realizes she doesn't "have you" any more, her attitude MAY change... .MAY.

I don't remember Dobson explaining that from a "push-pull" point of view, but I hope you can see how that can apply.  Personally, in my r/s, I use the push-pull strategies successfully.  Sure... many times I feel like an icky manipulative person... .and then the pragmatic Dad in me that wants a calm home kinda helps me get over it.

My general goal is to keep her "just barely" in the pull stage.

Anyway... .it's a book that was meaningful and practical for me, I'm glad you have found it helpful so far.  Let's create a new thread on it once you are done

I think it would be good for you (and me) while it's fresh in your mind to discuss Dobsons ideas that are "spot on" for pwBPD and the "rules" we talk about here and also identify some things that might be a bit "off"

Last:  I'm actually glad she "busted" you.  Personally... .I'd like to see you be more open, nonchalant and "in her face" about making healthy changes in your life.  The "in your face" thing is not a "taunt" but openness.

FF

[Enabler]

Morning FF,

I regretted not being more blatant about reading the book at the time and reflected on my actions thinking "Why am I scared of my wife seeing that I am reading a book?" then "What would I say to her if she asks what I am reading?"

I was scared because I was afraid of upsetting the apple cart, she had been in a micro pull stage pretty much since we had the run in re the house and kids. She had been more open and honest about what she was doing and lengthened sentences to 10 words from 1 or 2. Now her paranoia is back on again and sentences and disclosure (lets call this connection) has been withdrawn again.

My response will be "I'm reading a book that was recommended to me, written by a Christian, about letting go of your partner, giving them the freedom they want."

What has struck me about the book is the commonality with which he has written about excuses and rationale that adulterers use to justify their actions... .especially from a religious stance. It feels impossible for to reason against, mainly because it seems to freakin' obviously wrong but somehow she has managed to quash the guilt.

I am struggling to work out how I put her in a position of pain... .I know this is something I could and should have done 20yrs ago pre-kids, but I didn't and now I am in a less favorable position to open the cage door wide and show her she is free to fly. On that analogy, that is EXACTLY the analogy she has used when she was chatting to her other man, that and riding off on his Harley into the sunset. I don't get her perception of being trapped, I couldn't imagine it being possible for her to have more freedom. Maybe I let my BPD hat slip a little.

Re the book not being about BPD, I'm not so sure that at the emotional extremes ALL humans don't behave in a somewhat similar and predictable way. However, pwBPD's ability to get to those extremes, frequency and speed, is faster and more often so these extreme life events happen more often.

[formflier]

My response will be "I'm reading a book that was recommended to me, written by a Christian, about letting go of your partner, giving them the freedom they want."

So... .let's discuss... .before you say anything.

Remember... succinctness is important.  Also remember ( I think Dobson may have said) don't let your partner know details.  (sort of a sneak attack).

So... how did you pick the words you used?

What could be better?  This is where you need to "merge" with what you know about BPD.

FF

[Enabler]

I'm reading a book - she knows that

that was recommended to me - I am speaking to people and bettering myself

written by a Christian - this might annoy her it might intrigue her but will also signal that it's not a bad nasty frightening book

about letting go of your partner, giving them the freedom they want - I chose not to say that it was about infidelity in marriages and how to get your partner to a position where they are most likely to come back and gain the necessary respect for you to reconsider a relationship with you. Infidelity is guilt and shaming for her, I spent much of last year pointing this out to her and it just pushed her further and further away. Pointing to the fact that I'm looking to let go, love her and release her is ultimately the message (so far) of the book. I think it says "I'm taking control, I will let you go and you are going to get what you "say" YOU want".

She wont ask though... .It will just annoy her and she will ruminate on it.

[formflier]

I'm against you saying anything about "letting go"  (abandonment trigger)... .don't toy with that.

I would add "Christian psychologist"... .that is a way to "appropriately annoy" her.

Box her in with "healthy"... .which is different than persecute her.  Telling her she needs to go is "persecuting".  Being obvious about YOU getting healthy is "boxing her in".

See the difference?

Said another way... .I'm all for picking fights (about T)... .I just want you to be aware ahead of time that you are potentially picking a fight (the abandonment thing)

 
FF

[Enabler]

In reality she knows that her leaving ex kids is not an option so a lame threat. I am more than happy with boxing her in with healthy. Which is what I have been doing for the last few months. Maybe releasing her would be a better word. Like christian psychology angle.

[formflier]

In reality she knows that her leaving ex kids is not an option so a lame threat. I am more than happy with boxing her in with healthy. Which is what I have been doing for the last few months. Maybe releasing her would be a better word. Like christian psychology angle.

Yep... .but don't mention the word "release" until you are really ready and it must be consistent after that (hope you are getting that from your book)

FF

[Enabler]

The chat resurfaced on valentines day of all days... .of course.

So after a day of ignoring me and a lot of silent treatment ever since I was caught reading a book, she tells me that she's found a buyer for the house and they are coming to view the house today. I quiz her about where the buyer has come from and how they got in contact with her and she lied through her teeth pretty overtly. Anyway, I asked her if she had applied for the divorce again and the answer was still no. I told her that I was no going to entertain the idea of telling the kids or selling the family home unless she had petitioned for divorce. She attempted to suggest that I was massively unreasonable about this and that I should have stipulated this is legal mediation in Oct17 and suggested I have moved the goalposts.

She now claims that she will make this a priority for her in the next couple of weeks. The excuse thus far has been "I have been busy, I have 3 kids to look after, a home to manage and clean". I tried to avoid JADE as much as possible and stated my boundary. I did state that I was confused as to why she had no petitioned for a divorce since this was her priority not mine.

Boundary - I will not sell the family home without W petitioning for divorce

My Actions
Tries to sell the house without divorce petition - Refuse
Doesn't try to sell the house but doesn't petition for divorce - Ignore
Petitions for Divorce - Clear statement of intent

Pushing her out the cage door scares the sht out of me but it's wide open and she needs know that it's her whom is failing to fly away not me holding her in. I'm anxious but a lot less anxious than I have been in the past when events like this have occurred.

[formflier]

  she tells me that she's found a buyer for the house and they are coming to view the house today. I quiz her 

Noo

https://youtu.be/OdctnPIR5kA


Here is what I see.  Your wife is "getting something" from the divorce discussions.  We know it's not about divorce, she doesn't need to talk to you to accomplish that.

So... .stop fulfilling her need in a dysfunctional way.  Start fulfilling her need in a healthier way, or at least offer to.


I found a buyer.

Oh my... .thanks for letting me know.  (pull out that book and keep reading). 

No quiz about divorce... .NONE.  No quiz about any actions she has taken.  None.

after a pause. 

"Hey... .was thinking we could do something fun together today.  Any thoughts on that?"


Things I may have missed.

What book did she catch you with?  Is that important.

Did you acknowledge valentines day... did she?

FF

[Enabler]

I bought her and the kids some fancy cakes from a French patisserie, and a card with all names on. Covert way of getting it through without being binned immediately. She ignored it completely until kids went to bed and then said “thanks for the cakes, the kids thought they were really seeet”.

The book was Love must be tough, the one you told me to read.

I’m confused with your response, firstly in as much as I was showing there was a boundary, secondly ignoring her point is invalidating and thirdly what happens if she tries to agree a sale. The crux of the discussion was about selling the house, she actually holds the actual divorce in low priority and thinks she can start that in a couple of months if she feels like it. She just wants to get her freedom... .but the irony is the door is open and she has the means to fly away if she really wants to. She has £70k in the bank she could rent somewhere with!

[formflier]

The book was Love must be tough, the one you told me to read.

Ah yes... .have you read the entire thing?  Thoughts?  Perhaps it would be good to start a separate thread to focus on your thoughts and questions about that book.  Especially as they may relate to "changing" the way you have been "doing" your relationship or trying to "fix" it or "save" it.

Also... .yeah... .don't get caught reading it.  If I remember, it kinda says that in the book.  Should she go get her copy it could take some of the effect out of the strategies in there.

Sometimes it can't be helped.  How did you get caught? How did that go?


Ok... .so you have questions.  Good stuff... I'll try to work through them.

I’m confused with your response, firstly in as much as I was showing there was a boundary

Boundaries are my number 1 tool.  I love discussing boundaries.   

I see your boundary.  I'm going to suggest that is more of a negotiating position than a "real" boundary.  The "real" boundary (IMO) is your agreement is needed to sell the home (unless she gets a court order). 

My opinion is she wants you to do the divorce and sell the house so she can avoid doing it herself and have an easier time assuming victim position on drama triangle. 

Boundaries are better enforced than explained.  My understanding is she understand she needs you to sell house, the only reason to "explain" that to her is if she really... really doesn't understand that.  Even then, don't save her from her own ignorance... .let her experience it and save herself.

Did I answer your question?

, secondly ignoring her point is invalidating

Noo  (want me to link the video again?)   

If she finds silence invalidating, that is her problem.  The line of thinking that I have to say something in order to avoid being invalidating is flawed and will get you in trouble.

Silence is golden.

I do agree, if you can find something healthy and neutral to say, that is best. 

"I hear you, I'm going to need some time to consider this before responding."

and thirdly what happens if she tries to agree a sale.

She will experience the natural and logical consequences of trying to sell something that she doesn't have complete control and ownership of. 

The crux of the discussion was about selling the house, she actually holds the actual divorce in low priority and thinks she can start that in a couple of months if she feels like it. She just wants to get her freedom... .but the irony is the door is open and she has the means to fly away if she really wants to. She has £70k in the bank she could rent somewhere with!

As a practical matter, if she has that kinda cash in reserve, why does she want to sell the house.  How much equity is there to divide?

This is the negotiator in me trying to figure out what she is after.  The 70k in reserve is big news to me.  How did she get it?  Is she "good with money".

Hmmmm

Awaiting your response.

FF

[Enabler]

I think the discussion re the book is on the previous page or one before as is the discussion about being caught with the book. I found it compelling but had issues with how to implement when she is primary child carer and there’s no way I can reasonably turf her out. I would in essence be shooting myself in the foot. I’m implementing by lovingly opening the cage door as wide as possible, standing back and saying “you’re free to leave whenever you want, please go, I have enough self respect to not hold someone back who wants to be with someone else”

We have an interest only mortgage there’s about 800k of equity and no, she is not good at saving, I am. But makes sense from a tax perspective that she has a decent slug of the cash pile. The cash pile is a bit of a bugbear as she can’t rationalise that the cash goes against the mortgage... .of almost be better off paying off the mortgage with it as she’d find that easier to handle when I tell her to stop spending money. Most of the “wealth” comes from property equity but I am good with money. Ultimately she knows she has access to that should she need it but would like to stay in the victim spot as you suggest.

[formflier]

Do you own other properties?  Is all your "wealth" tied up in 1 property?

We are likely in the same boat with regards to finances and the relationship.

My wife and her foo "work for their money".  Me and my family have worked for our money in the past, but we are more interest in our money "working for us".

They have nothing to show for their work (well... very little relative to what I have).

At the moment I am relatively "cash poor" and "property heavy".  I'm slowly cashing out of properties and trying to get that part of my life more manageable.  (it's honestly a bit separate from the BPD thing).

Anyway... .I don't believe I've give you any off advice, but I get the idea that I didn't understand the "impact" of your decisions.

Do you use a financial advisor?  Have you ever?

Can I ask what your net  worth is?  Do you have other investments? 

Ok... I'll hush.

FF

[formflier]

If you have 800k in equity... .how much is the mortgage?

FF

[Enabler]

£355k

[formflier]

£355k

OK... .please look over my other questions as well.

And... .I would not in any way agree to or further discuss selling this property.  Does the property work for you?  You and the kids?

Although it appears that if she left, that means the kids leave?  Anyway for her to exit and "take a break" and kids stay with you and perhaps some hired help?

Just trying to brainstorm about how to "show her a path" if she wants out of the cage for a while.

I'm not familiar with your tax laws, but... .will you owe capital gains tax or have a tax impact on a sale?

Has the property appreciated?  Would you be making a gain?

FF

[Enabler]

No capital gains, all wealth in one property no financial advisor and never used one. I’m a equity derivatives trader so I’d feel a bit dirty doing so... .but I’m mostly cash and small equity portfolio due to bearish and mega conservative for years... .20m out of work after working at a  hedge fund will do that.

Net worth £800k

The house is my dream home and was hers until it wasn’t  in a lovely area with great school. Kids love the house and each have large double bedrooms, they couldn’t ask for more and it’s a forever house.

She goes kids go, she isn’t a public monster so there would be no legitimate reason the public would see that she shouldn’t get custody. It would have to be her choice to abandon them and I cannot imagine her doing that. She just can’t keep her emotions in check with them and puts a fair amount of guilt and shame on them in private.

My family have always been good savers and I have a good handle on delayed gratification. Wife’s family were more hand to mouth but parents neglected everything for themselves to pay for horse riding lessons and limits every whim. Always have Christmas presents and birthday presents months in advance “because I really need those boots” , not sure she has ever saved up for anything ever.