I didn’t go to the movie but it’s my fault they left?

[5xFive]

My uBPDh took s7 to a movie today. This was to make up for missing donuts with Dad on Thursday. They went to see Jumanji which I think s7 probably wanted to see but I know it wasn’t his first choice. He wanted to see Thor and h convinced him to wait so that we could all see that one together. So they’ve paid for the movie and the concessions and s7 says he wants to play in the arcade. I wasn’t there so idk how the conversation went, but they left the movie halfway through. The theater didn’t have an atm and h didn’t have cash so they couldn’t play the arcade and ended up leaving all together. H called me, mad, because it’s MY fault they left the movie. He says we are living a life that he didn’t want, because of me, and in so doing, we are raising our children a way that he doesn’t like, and we we have to bow to “the king” (s7).
Now I’m trying to change MY behavior bc I’m tired af arguing. So I’m really trying not to JADE. I realize that this is his mental illness talking but sheesh, I’m feeling defensive. If you don’t want to leave the movie, then tell him that you’ll play the arcade when it’s over. I don’t understand why this is difficult. And I can’t see the connection as to how his lack of parenting is my fault!
I realize by the time I get advice from you good people how you would respond to this, they will be home and h will have smoked a bowl and played his video game. I’m trying to validate that h is upset that HE missed the movie but it just seems so selfish to me. The day was for s7. Because h dysregulated and didn’t take him to the breakfast. This is his way to make it up. I get that he spent the money and didn’t see the movie, but it’s just a movie. Spending time with the boy is what’s important. But h doesn’t see it that way, he says that he’s spoiled bc we give him everything he asks for. I disagree. I think he does get a lot of what he asks for, but there are plenty of times we say no and he’s so sweet and kind. And honestly, he SHOULD be able to get what he asks for on a “makeup” day when he was treated the way he was 2 days ago, and he has to listen to his dad raging out at his mom a few times a week. This is just my opinion of course.
I’m confused and conflicted. What would you do, if you were in a similar situation? My second instinct is just to remain quiet and let h complain, and hope that he calms down. My first instinct is to defend the fact that it’s MY fault but I’m going to try really super duper hard not to go with my first instinct... .
My anxiety is so high that I can feel my heart pounding in my chest and in my ears.

[Cat Familiar]

OK, breathe... .

No, it's absolutely not your fault. There is just so many things wrong with how your husband is framing this situation, it's hard to know where to start.

First of all, don't validate the invalid. Try not to get into the weeds and mention alternatives as to how he could have handled the situation. That would be fine with a NON but he isn't one and it's likely that he's dysregulated, so he won't be open to hearing you and away you'll go into another argument.

How about a third instinct that says to remain quiet, let him complain for a moment, then validate that he was upset that he didn't get to see the movie. Then politely excuse yourself to take care of a pending matter--make something up. (I use medicating an animal, checking on the dryer, returning a phone call, etc.)

Yes, it's narcissistic as all get out, but you know that from his behavior pattern that he makes it all about him. Yes, your son didn't get good daddy time to make up for the disappointment, and it's likely to be a recurring pattern because your husband doesn't seem to look beyond his own wants and needs.

Your desire to soothe an upset person is best spent with your son.

[5xFive]

Thank you Cat. I like you. 
You tell me straight and it makes me feel normal. So often when dealing with my husband I feel utterly insane. I get so confused and then I think he must be right and then I start agreeing, ugh. Well I didn’t today.
I did not validate anything, . Most of the time, I pick the emotion to validate and he says I’m wrong and it spins him out more. Today I just listened when he complained and then he got mad that I was being silent and told me to leave him alone. So I did. I went to get dinner started, then decided that I didn’t want to cook and told him that I’m going out to get smoothies (he LOVES tropical smoothie). So I left. And I feel so much better.
After talking to my son, I think I know part of what happened today. They left home at 11, got home at 4. During that time, my son ate candy and popcorn. He burned off energy while mini golfing first. I am guessing that s7 was hangry from not eating lunch and he was whiny. H can’t handle whining bc it stirs up all of his emotions. And the two of them started feeding off each other. S probably said during the movie that he wanted to play the arcade games, and h got irritated from the whining and determined they were just going to leave. They both came home in a foul mood and s7 was crying for the first 20 mins he was home, about this and that until I figured out that he was hungry and I fed him. Then he was like a different kid. H doesn’t take care of the kids enough to realize that their basic necessities need to be handled like at least 3 times a day. (This is why I don’t take it too seriously when he tells me that he’s divorcing me and coming after the kids. He’s never even changed ONE diaper on d1.)
Anyway, thanks again Cat. You made me feel so much better!

[Cat Familiar]

So often when dealing with my husband I feel utterly insane. I get so confused and then I think he must be right and then I start agreeing, ugh. Well I didn’t today.

Happy to help.   

Good work!  Us nons tend to be kindhearted people, wanting to be open to our loved ones' thoughts and feelings and able to be persuaded. That openness is a wonderful strategy except when an emotionally unbalanced person is determined to convince us that their current irrational viewpoint is the correct one.

Of course you get confused, because likely it makes no logical sense.

I remember crazy discussions with my ex-husband. He was far further along the BPD scale than my current husband, who is BPD-lite. Anyway, at the same time, he was also very intelligent, when not dysregulated. Sometimes I would have an issue that I wanted to discuss with him and I would carefully rehearse what I planned to say and would try and keep it brief, simple and non-confrontational as much as possible.

Then discussion would ensue and that would be the end of my part because it would turn into a monologue of him telling me all the ways that I was stupid, inferior, mistaken, etc. Next thing I knew, I would be apologizing for all my faults. Then an hour or two would pass and I'd wonder, how the heck the conversation had gotten so derailed. The topic I was hoping to broach was never discussed. It truly was crazy making.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi there 5xFive!  I have been in these same type of situations with my uBPDh, so I understand how you were feeling.  It’s frustrating and exhausting.  Especially when children are involved. Our child is grown and independent, but I have experienced and still remember the heartache when you want that relationship between them to be better and “normal”. Over the years, as a parent, I have tried to be emotionally steady and consistent and it worked out for us.   The good news is although not perfect, my husband and daughter have.a good relationship. 

You have gotten some excellent feedback from Cat.  Good job on not JADEING.  That is a hard habit to break, but so worth the effort.  I have had success with SET at times.  It took a while to do it naturally, but it gets easier.  Something like - Sympathy - Sounds like a frustrating time.  It really sucks to have to leave the movie early.  Empathy - it frustrates me, too when my plans get sidetracked (or whatever you can empathize with) Truth - seven year olds get hungry so often, maybe next time just putt putt or just a movie.   

This is a deceptively simple technique, but it often works. Of course, I cannot do it when my husband is raging.  Good exit strategy with the Smoothies. 

Best of luck to you.  Mustbe

[snowglobe]

Dear @Five*5, I’m so sorry your uBPDh is dysregulating to the point of upsetting you and your son.
Few points here- no, you aren’t crazy, and I’ve been in your shoes too many times to count. Your uBPDh seems to also exhibit narsicistic tendencies, as does mine. As someone looking at the bigger picture, I can guess that your husband is reversing the roles, himself acting like a child and expecting your son to act like a caregiver/adult/ rescuer. He is also probably jealous of your connection with your children, on a cognitive level he most likely realizes it’s not a healthy feeling. Yet, emotionally, he wants to be “the apple of your eye”, with your sole purpose of existence is to thrive to make him happy. I try using redirection method as if lately. Doing something so bazar that it takes his mind off of his feelings.
Side note, can you pls describe how often and what kind of drugs he uses. The reason for that, each drug works in a different way, affects the brain chemistry, and ultimately service a different purpose. My husband does very strong amphetamin 2-4 times a year in order to “apologize and reconnect with me”. He says all the right things and apologizes profusely confessing his love. He he also says that “you are a saint woman for putting up with me”, it lasts several days. Once the seratonin and dopamine leaves his system he falls into rage. I know and usually “utilize” those days to make plans for everything he agreed prior. I know too well that once the “afterglow leaves, so do his sincere promises for a better life.

[formflier]

  Most of the time, I pick the emotion to validate and he says I’m wrong and it spins him out more. Today I just listened when he complained and then he got mad that I was being silent and told me to leave him alone. 

Here is an example of what happens when we "miss the validation target".  Most of us "nons" don't have  history of validation and so it can be a bit of an odd concept.  One I still struggle with.

I find it better to "slow down" and ask about their emotions first, usually this can be done in a caring an empathetic way.  Confirm the target and then validate.

Of course they can and often will change their mind... .don't chase that around.  Sometimes they don't want to be validated... they want to be (whatever they are)... .so let them.

Perhaps the next step is to limit the amount of time you listen.  Or perhaps limit the time you listen before confirming the validation target or shifting into asking them how they will "solve" the issue.

What you want to avoid is setting precedent that you will listen to whining and gnashing of teeth for long periods of time, especially when it's a repetitious issue.

FF

[5xFive]

Thank you all for your replies

FF,
I’m wondering how to ask about the emotions? I seem to start out by missing this target and then I’m unable to validate.
I think I try to validate and he takes it as I’m assuming and that sets him off so I don’t want to do that anymore.

Snowglobe,
He doesn’t take any hard drugs or drink alcohol. He smokes pot all the time. It helps him regulate I think. It definitely helps with his anxiety. I’ve noticed that when he’s really in the hole, he won’t smoke and he stays in the hole. He knows that once he smokes he feels better and he’s more functioning. 99% of our arguments start in the morning before he goes to work bc he doesn’t smoke in the morning or on days like Sat, bc he doesn’t smoke before he goes somewhere.

[formflier]

Ask directly and succinctly.

"How do you feel right now?"  good!

":)o you feel angry right now?"  bad!  (don't suggest things... let them fill in the blanks)

Be prepared for "If you loved me you would know... ."  (or other similar blather)

"I'm not going to mind read.  Our relationship is too important for that.  I'm available to talk further if you want to be more open.  I'll respect your privacy in the meantime."

Note... .said in a friendly tone with perhaps a bit of a shoulder shrug in there as if to say "what else can I do but respect your privacy... ."

Then... move along with things and don't get drawn in to further discussion.

FF

[formflier]

  99% of our arguments start in the morning before he goes to work bc he doesn’t smoke in the morning or on days like Sat, bc he doesn’t smoke before he goes somewhere.

So... .this is really really really good information to have.

What would your life be like if 2/3rds of the 99% was removed?


After all... .think about the last few arguments... .what would have happened if he decided to argue and you decided to do something else?

FF

[5xFive]

I imagine if I decided not to argue, then he would accuse and blame and threaten and scream and maybe eventually fizzle out? I’m not totally sure bc it’s pretty rare that it happens.
I feel like the only way that I can get to where I don’t argue is if I don’t care if he does file for divorce or leaves. If I don’t care that he thinks I only care for money or things. That he thinks I am a liar bc I break promises that I don’t remember making. I’m NOT these things. I do care if he divorces me. I don’t make promises EVER that I can’t keep. But he thinks me saying I’ll try to do something is a promise. Like I promise every time I open my mouth. Promises are so much bigger and more to me. On the flip side, I catch him lying a lot. Most of the time he is trying to manipulate a situation. Often to make himself the victim. In the Karpman triangle, he is victim and persecutor. I am victim and rescuer.
How do I keep myself from arguing when he says these things? Oh I know that he’s ill. I know that he only thinks this when he paints me black. When I’m white, I’m the nicest, kindest, most unmaterialstic person he knows. But it’s hard to not care what he thinks and then still care how he feels. I really struggle with this, maybe it’s my own black and white thinking.
Thoughts?

[formflier]

How do I keep myself from arguing when he says these things? 

This is really THE question for you to answer.

For me it had to do about taking things personally.  I get it that a marriage relationship "should" be different, but... .in many cases it is not.

Sadly, you are one of those cases.

So... .what you need to consider is that if your hubby came to you and said... "Honey... aliens are in our front yard, they have put my crazy aunt in the basement and I have to go find the owner of this glass slipper left at the ball... ." it would be easier to dismiss him.

If it was not someone close to you... .it would be easier.

Understand that you stepping away from arguments is more about you than him.  Remember... boundaries.

Pick an example of a recent morning argument.  Give us some word for word... .I'll try to help you figure some strategies to "break free".

You are correct... .once you stop adding fuel to the fire... .it will fizzle out.


FF

[5xFive]

Ok, thank you. That will be helpful. He is angry with me today in fact.

He says that I did not rub his back all weekend and he remembers that I promised I would do this. Yesterday, he repaired all but 2 of the holes that he has put into our walls. It took the entire day (7 large holes repaired). He kept saying while he was working that I could thank him after the kids were asleep. After I cleaned everything up (he did not help with the clean up), I was late starting dinner. By the time I was done making dinner and feeding everyone, our 14mo old was overtired. Side note: I had trouble sleeping Saturday night. I was up from 1:30-3, trying to fall back to sleep. The baby is still nursing and I think she is teething bc SHE wasn't going to sleep.so, last night, I had trouble getting her to sleep because she was so overtired. I ended up falling asleep myself and I woke up at 12:30 am.

Before I took her to bed, he had asked me to wash his jeans so that he could wear clean clothes today and they were still in the wash. In a panic, I jumped out of bed and moved them to the dryer. Our dryer needs a belt replaced (he said he would do this 3 weeks ago) and so it SQUEEEEEAKS. It is so loud. So this squeaking is happening in the middle of the night. My anxiety was so high because I fell asleep and he gets mad whenever I fall asleep before him and now this loud squeaking (loud noises make me panic), so I decided to load up the dishwasher, hoping the shhhhh-shhhh of the dishwasher would be louder than the squeaking of the dryer and wouldn't wake him up.

No such luck. He woke up, so I rubbed his back for 20 mins until he fell asleep.

This morning, I went to rub him at 5:15 like I do every work morning and at 5:25 the baby started crying for me. So he's mad that she is awake. He tells me that I broke a promise by falling asleep last night, that I said I would rub him and I didn't and he because he can't live like this anymore, he is filing for divorce, then he went to the bank and withdrew our mortgage payment which was supposed to clear today. In a panic, I told him that that money was for the mortgage and he said too bad and then started accusing me of only caring about money.

Then he started in about how I was so ignorant for waking him up with the dryer, if I had kept my promise and washed his jeans before I fell asleep, then the dryer wouldn't have woken him up. Then he started in about how he has given me suggestions to get the baby to stay asleep and how I refuse to do what he says and he's mad about that. (He suggests crying it out and I can't do it. She is going to have enough reasons to cry in her life, I can't leave her to cry when I can easily comfort her. I can't do it).

So things calm down I think and then he says he's taking the money back to the bank because that is all I care about. He deposits the money and says 5xfive: 2,344,473 wins, 5xfiveh:0 wins. I hadn't said anything else about the mortgage except for when I panicked. He says he is canceling his direct deposit and I can never have access to his check again. Then he's filled out a divorce petition and he will drop it off when he is done with work. Then he starts pushing texting and texting how ignorant and cold I am, how I have the opportunity to do the right thing but my ego is too big (this means I should have called him when he was attacking me)

So I call, and then he keeps on how he is divorcing me. I told him I don't want to argue with him, that makes me sad but it sounds like there is nothing else I can say. So he hangs up on me and starts texting me how stupid and dumb I am. He gave me a chance to make things right and I'm too dumb. My ignorance destroyed the marriage and it is going to destroy our children. I do not reply and he texts that he quits me, now I will never be able to apologize to him again, I will never be able to call him. I am f*$5ng sick. Next he says that I made my choice and he will never speak to me again, then: "want to see if I'm bulls^&ing this time? You just lost your marriage". Next he says he should have kept his money and when he is done with work today he is going to go get it, and just try to stop him.

That brings us current to now... .

[formflier]

I'm so sorry... .

What was the goal in calling him? 

When they are in la la land.  Best to leave them alone or let them know you will check back in a few hours and hopefully things will be calmer.

I wish I was more familiar with your story, but I really think a cold turkey I won't be spoken to that way... .is the way to go.

Please consider it.

Most bullies are shocked when they get punched in the nose and someone stands up to them. 

I'm not suggesting you psychically (actually) punch him but that you change your behavior so that it "feels that way" to him.

The better analogy is for you to have good boundaries.  If he wants to bloody his nose by running into your boundaries... .that's his choice.  (he will blame you for not moving the boundaries)

Last for now:  Changes are obviously needed.  Please don't make any until you have thought them through and are confident you can be consistent.

Consistency is critical.

FF

[5xFive]

Ok, and thank you.

I think my goal is for him to not feel abandoned. He starts texting that I am never there for him when he needs me and my rescuer goes into overdrive. I understand his fears and I try to make him feel better. I would prefer not to contact him, but when he insists, I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Yes, a big complaint that he has about me is my lack of consistency. I believe this is due to me attempting boundaries and then not keeping them in place.

[formflier]

I think my goal is for him to not feel abandoned. 

How is that working out?

FF

[5xFive]

Lol. Not that well.
He’s still going on about how he’s divorcing me bc he can’t live his life this way. OR he will stay with me, if I check myself into an inpatient mental illness program. Truthfully, he makes me feel crazy.

[formflier]

Lol. Not that well.
He’s still going on about how he’s divorcing me bc he can’t live his life this way. OR he will stay with me, if I check myself into an inpatient mental illness program. Truthfully, he makes me feel crazy.

So... .there is no one thing that solves all or any of this.  There are steps that can be taken that will give you clarity, peace and understanding.

Do you see the "projection" in his statement?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Does he know you are listening?  Is he texting these things or telling you via phone... in person... what?

One thing that will give you peace is to listen and participate in much less of this stuff. 

Seriously... .put a timer on it (don't let him physically see this)... .be as present as possible, listen... .be friendly, be concerned, ask clarifying questions... .then after 5 minutes let him know you need to give it some thought... .and go think about it (without hearing anything further).

Last:  Do you really think he wants a divorce?  Really?  Do you really understand that should he want a divorce... you can't stop him?

So... .in my mind, it's about something else.

FF

[5xFive]

Sometimes text, sometimes in person. Rarely by phone. Usually, he texts something really ignorant and then I am expected to call him based on the name calling ignorant texts. If I don't call, then he pokes and prods by telling me that that was my LAST chance and I have lost him for good and that I can never do the right thing. And I always call. Sometimes it is in person. Last week he was raging at me and I tried to go into the bathroom to get away. He tried to break down the door. I was really scared and said I was leaving and would be back in 30mins. I didn't end up leaving, he started crying about something or other and I gave in like I usually do.
Now today, he has withdrawn the money again and he says I will never see him again. I have tried not to argue, I have tried not to respond. I have failed at both. He called his MOTHER and she called me wondering what was happening. Its humiliating. I can't be honest bc if he stays, I would never hear the end of telling his mom how abusive he can be. So I protected him, like an idiot. Like I always do.
I don't know if he really wants a divorce. Every other day, he is either threatening divorce or suicide. I am at my witts end. I don't think I care anymore. I can't afford to pay my bills and mortgage by myself, but I'm tired of the threats and ultimatums. I don't want a divorce, but I don't want this marriage anymore either. And I can't seem to change fast enough.
This is his biggest complaint, FYI. That I need to change and I can't change enough for him. That just tells me that he doesn't love me for me. Why do I want to stay married to someone who doesn't love me anyway?

[formflier]

 
So... .there are lots of different things going on.

I would suggest thinking about this for a few days.

What would life be like if you stopped responding to abusive and ridiculous texts?  Same with phone calls.  Give him the chance to talk in a respectful manner... .and then if he fails, take it upon yourself to protect yourself from those things he says.

He uses threats... .because they work.  After a while of them not working, he will likely back off them.

Does that make sense?

FF

[5xFive]

Yes, makes sense. I will try this, thank you

[formflier]

Yes, makes sense. I will try this, thank you

https://youtu.be/h5SNAluOj6U


Seriously... .consistency is critical.  If you are not ready to make and keep this change... .don't start.

It is far worse to start and stop a boundary enforcement thing, than to delay it a couple weeks.

FF

[5xFive]

That makes sense. Maybe that’s been my issue. Inconsistency.