We fight over everything

[Enabler]

1.  First of all do you have privacy on your phone and email communications?  Talk to me about how you know it's private.  This needs to be assured.

Frankee, I have done my fair share of snooping in the last 18m trying to work out what is going on with my uBPDw and her lies/behaviour/"special friend". It's not something I feel particularly proud of but I did it and I justify it rightly or wrongly by attempting to keep my family together. Anyway... .that irrelevant. What is relevant is your safety. Things I have done and you need to be careful of:

- any iphone backups on personal computers he has any access to. You can scrape whatsaps, texts, photos, emails, internet history from those files with a free download online.
- notes on iphone which are linked to an email account like hotmail or gmail will sync with that account and can be access on the email account if he has any access to that.
- Old phones that still have access to your accounts can be used to access email and other ex whatsap (only one device at a time is allowed to access that).
- Find my phone on any shared apple accounts can be used to track you when the device is on.
- Google account can be set up to track your location, will record all your internet browsing history.
- Whatsap - huge vapor trail, shows your status when you are online and last seen... .it also shows when other people are online or last seen. Although there's a lot of assumptions involved (and if he's paranoid as I was/am that won't be difficult) he can deduce who you are speaking to on whatsap... .e.g. my W has a "support group" as well as her OM. I see her online and then I see he support group light up like a Christmas tree. Similarly I deduce when she's been chatting to the OM till the small hours of the morning. Telegram is an alternative to whatsap and there is much less vapor trail.
- iMessages are terrible, avoid them. All it takes is an old phone with your i account and he can see all of the messages.
- email - it's a good idea to set up a new one and ONLY use it for very trusted people. Beware of recovering deleted items. It might be deleted and deleted out of deleted items but if he can access say the hotmail account online he can recover those deleted items.
- Make sure you log off and don't store your passwords for email accounts on the PC.
- how safe is the information you are putting on this website? Is there any crumb trail that might lead him here? Do you get notifications sent to email that a post has been updated? Where do personal message alerts go to?
- Small personal tracking devices are easily purchased on ebay, small enough to go in a handbag and certainly small enough to be attached to a car. Bare this in mind if you are planning to visit DV or visit somewhere out of the ordinary.

I don't mean to be alarmist but clearly this is not a safe situation and any information leakage is paramount. There is little point in you painstakingly planning to evaporate if he's fully versed about the plan. Information is VERY powerful.

[Radcliff]

Frankee, after posting, I just saw that Skip may have started a fresh thread for you:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318925.0
I like that he asked you to clarify your intent.  In my message below I used quotes from you to say what I believed your intent was.  Hopefully I got it right.  Go ahead and answer Skip's question on that thread, and I'll follow up there.  ~ WW

Cat Familiar and Meili, I think you've come together on the boundaries question.  I think your views are compatible.  If there is a hurricane bearing down on us in Houston, having a boundary does not mean we're smart and powerful enough to stop the hurricane, or responsible for that.  We're responsible for picking up on the storm warnings and heading for Dallas.

I lied.  About physical altercations.  I was worried about being judged and hearing stuff like, why didn't you report him or leave back then?  He's gotten physical with me in the past.  One time he punched me in the gut, and made me pass out.  So tell me now about setting boundaries.  Tell me how to walk away from a man who took me out in the backyard, made me get on my knees and threatened to shoot me in the back of the head.  Why didn't I report him or leave then?  I was terrified he would come back for me, shoot me and bury me in the backyard and then murder my family with all the gory details he decided to share.

Should I not let that affect me?  Be emotionally intelligent when he looks at me with dead eyes and says that if I even think about taking away his kids, he will hunt me down, torture me in ways that I never knew possible, and make me wish I was dead. How I should not let it affect me.

Going to the cops... He's told me to call the cops.  Telling me he would wait as long as he had to and when he gets out, find me and murder me.  What's more dangerous?  Staying and hoping that day doesn't come?  Leaving and hoping he doesn't get to me?

Then tells me he loves me.

Frankee, oy vey.  I am so sorry.  No judgement.  If you talked to survivors who have made it past the abuse, you will hear story after story about how long it took to break free, about the pain and fear of telling people.  I could go on and on.  You are a normal person who has responded normally to extraordinary situations.  Many others, perhaps most others, have responded similarly in similar situations.

A lot has been learned about how to respond to domestic violence in the last several decades.  Things like the point you mentioned about leaving being dangerous.  Another change is an appreciation for the survivor's right and need to be in charge of her own situation.  There is no one-size solution.  You know the situation.  You will best be able to judge when it is time to go to a safe place.  The things you've been doing up until now have made total sense.  You've been learning, you've been trying to save things.  You've seen improvements, which made it seem reasonable to try harder.  I would have done the exact same thing as you.  Heck, I did

So, getting back to that point about you calling the shots, I read through your thread to make sure I understood where you are at, and here are the things that spoke to me on that:

I don't think any of it matters anymore.  I think I'm done.  He had a rant that I don't think I'll ever get past.  This time I mean it... . I have less than 6 months to plan.  I've already talked to my friend.  She's going to talk to some people she knows about what my options are.  Now my focus is to act like I'm not up to anything.  He is an abuser.  I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

I am letting him believe that he has control and everything is okay, because that's what I have to do to ensure I can get out safely.

What I'm reading there is some mixed feelings about the relationship, but a determination to get safe.  Am I understanding where you are with this?

For me, my desire to be safe and my desire to save the relationship if I could were all wound up in a ball.  You may or may not have clarity on what you want to do with the relationship.  One thing that helped me a lot to take action was not burdening myself with deciding on the relationship.  I determined to get things safe, and didn't force myself to decide on the relationship.  Your path may be different than mine, if you are feeling unsettled about the relationship, consider whether separating the two problems might help you feel better about taking action to get safe.

I know that even though you've been clear here, you've got a tough and unpredictable road ahead and you might change your mind or feel your conviction waver.  It might even be the smart thing to do -- you might do a ton of learning and realize that you need to bide your time for longer than you thought.  Regardless, it is our job to stand by you and support you nonjudgementally.  No matter what turn things take, do not isolate yourself because you are worried about what we'll think.  This is your show.  We work for you on this.

All that said, I think you're making a good decision.  It might be worthwhile to think to yourself about a couple of the key things that got you to that crystalline decision point.  For me it was a determination not to have my daughter witness the abuse anymore.  For you, perhaps it is that image of kneeling on the lawn and being threatened with death.  Whatever the thoughts or images are for you, they may help you power through any moments of doubt.  You have a right to feel safe.

I want to say three important things to you:

We believe you -- You are living in an environment where abuse is minimized.  He has established it as "normal."  In that environment it is so easy to doubt yourself.  You've got it figured out.  It is abuse.  Keep believing yourself.

We believe in you -- You are strong and resourceful.  You've been around for a while, so this is not just a nice thing to say.  You've shown us.  You have what it takes to get where you want to go on this.  For certain.

Get face-to-face with local help --  the one thing I feel for sure is most predictive of your success, and how quickly/well you get started on your path, is getting connected to high quality local domestic violence help.  There may be a few different official agencies and nonprofits in your area.  Talk to one quickly, but also look around and ask around to see what's out there.  :)espite fantastic help on this board, and a ton of reading, sitting down with a live human, telling her what was going on, and having her believe me, was game-changing like nothing else.  That is when I finally felt like I had traction.  She also knew everyone and provided help I'd never imagined.  She sent me to a banker who gave me a checking account for my emergency fund, waiving the monthly fees and giving me free checks.  And more.  For you, you'll want to find your way to the best person in town for safety planning and exit strategy.  If you ask around, you'll eventually get to the person everyone thinks is the top dog to help with that.

When you talk to the local DV help, it is important for you to give them the specifics.  Ask if they have surveys you can fill out that ask about abuse and controlling tactics he has used.  Make it clear that you are ready to get safe.  My sense, based on what you've said, is that when they triage you like the nurses do in the ER, you'll get sent to the head of the line.  If you end up in a corner with the sprained ankles, you need to work them a bit until you get the help you need.  The specifics will help tell your story.  The part about kneeling in the back yard and being worried you'll be buried in it, not only does that suck and I am so sorry you have been subjected to that, but even in the DV community that kind of detail is a very sobering call to action.  You may also want to take the MOSAIC threat assessment survey.  This is a survey agencies use to assess someone's risk of DV tragedy.  I found just answering the questions to be informative.

www.thehotline.org is also a fantastic site, and they offer online chat if it's not safe to call on the phone.  Two pages that might be useful are:
path to safety
what is safety planning?

OK, you've got a lot ahead of you.  As you start to build a plan, and get closer to an exit, you may find yourself getting more anxious.  That is normal.  You'll have plans you don't want discovered, you'll be envisioning a post-escape dream and won't want to lose it, etc.  It will likely be tough.  We can help support you, along with the local folks.

Can I ask you to keep us up to date on how it goes with the local help?  Let us know if you find someone who you think you can rely on, or if you're struggling to connect?

Frankee, you've got this.  You are not alone.  People here will rally and stick by you.

WW

[formflier]

Wow... .there is a lot of intensity here.  Let's all help point out the primary thing is giving solid options for Frankee to evaluate, because ultimately she will be the person most affected.

I'm a fan of ensuring privacy and evaluating this privately with local DV groups and agencies.

Private preparation is critical.

     To all involved with DV... it does suck to get hit... .even if no physical scars are there.

FF

[Radcliff]

formflier, one of the drawbacks of my long posts is that they are, well, long   So something like this can easily get lost:

... .an appreciation for the survivor's right and need to be in charge of her own situation.  There is no one-size solution.  You know the situation.  You will best be able to judge ... .

Thanks for calling that out again, since it's important, and buried in my long post.  I asked Frankee to double check my interpretation of her intent, and Skip was wise enough to call it out on a separate thread even.  Asking clarifying questions and letting the discussion evolve is an important approach modeled by our most senior members like yourself and Skip.  With growing experience, I sometimes find myself belaying a long post in favor of this more measured approach.  While long posts carry some risk of missing the mark, I believe they have their place.  That said, you are one of the masters at patiently drawing an OP out and sticking with an evolving situation, giving the right advice at the right time, so I regard you as one of my style guides; I appreciate your thoughts.

The intensity was deliberate.  Homicidal threats from someone with the means to carry them out goes right to the top of the triage list.  I am responding to what Frankee is reporting.  In these situations, there are so many forces that minimize the threat, there is a significant risk of underresponding.  Let's see what Frankee comes back to us with.  She is on the ground, and has full context that we'll never have.  We can shift back to the shorter, give-and-take dialogue, and see where it goes.

WW

[formflier]

No suggestion from me that anyone has done anything inappropriate or unwise.  I think the intensity highlights the seriousness and I'm glad all can acknowledge the intensity.

My background:  Many times when emergencies break out in an airplane... .taking a few breaths ... ."sitting on your hands" and evaluating is a wonderful thing... the best thing.

Especially when "this just in" information would seem to "change everything".  

Usually there is a worse outcome in an airplane from doing some wrong in a hasty fashion than for doing something right but a little too slow.  

2l2s is still alive in her current situation, she is a survivor and seems to get that a change is the most dangerous time.  So... .let's be really wise and deliberate about evaluating that before making the change.

 

FF

[Frankee]

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, size and strength play a huge factor.  He has the ability to snatch me up and crush my windpipe with one hand if he really wanted to kill me.  I've been lucky before where he doesn't exert his full strength.  I've seen him take down men twice his size when they were horsing around.  So yes, size and physical aspect take big play into my situation.

What I'm reading there is some mixed feelings about the relationship, but a determination to get safe.  Am I understanding where you are with this?

For me, my desire to be safe and my desire to save the relationship if I could were all wound up in a ball.  You may or may not have clarity on what you want to do with the relationship.  

I do have mixed feelings.  I never wanted this.  I never planned for this.  I stayed with him because he showed me that side that was protective, loving, attentive, caring, called me sweet love names.  Then I started seeing the other side.  I excused it because of the things he had been through.  I was walking in FOG for a very long time.  The day I sat in the bathroom, crushed, crying, feeling so much pain, enough to where I thought about how to make it stop for good.  Was the day of clarity.  I knew I couldn't keep doing this. 

The last time he raged at me, it was a smack in the face (figuratively).  Him threatening to throw me out, not let me see the children, and a key comment... I have found myself in a situation that I wasn't prepared for.  Him telling me that seemed to hit the core.  He's right.  If he decided to follow through one of these times, I really was unprepared.  The way I feel is uncomfortable because it's new.  I still have the fantasy of us staying together, being the happy family in our new town.  It's something I was holding on to for hope.  It's a dying dream though.  I've been preoccupied more and more with ways to get myself out.  I even went extreme and contacted an amnesty hotline from Canada.  That's how scared I am to leave.  I feel the only way to really be safe is to leave the country.

I know that even though you've been clear here, you've got a tough and unpredictable road ahead and you might change your mind or feel your conviction waver.  

Regardless, it is our job to stand by you and support you nonjudgementally.  No matter what turn things take, do not isolate yourself because you are worried about what we'll think.  This is your show.  We work for you on this.

I really appreciate that.  I always worry about setting my mind to something and then seeing my steam fizzle out, get detoured, feeling like I'm doing the wrong thing.  Then getting the question of why are you still in that situation?  Why haven't you taken action?  Why has your mind switched? 

The worse thing I am battling with feeling that I still love him, or at least the memory of the man I remember he was.  Then I feel like I have been conditioned to feel this way because of the patterns he's exhibited.  The rage, anger, intimidation... followed by calm, acting normal, showing affection, saying he loves me.  I shouldn't feel these times of affection as important because they are a break from the rage and hate.

Can I ask you to keep us up to date on how it goes with the local help?  Let us know if you find someone who you think you can rely on, or if you're struggling to connect?

I will keep updated.  The fact that I spewed out the physical altercations is a red flag for me that I've had enough.  I tried so hard to focus on current issues and ways to cope/deal/manage whatever in my situation.  It's just now, every time he gets angry or mean about something... it feels more like a little push in the direction I'm going.  Normally I would bounce back an attempt to apply tools and work to fix it.  I tell myself... keep pushing me you jerk, just making this easier every day.

[Cat Familiar]

Wentworth, I thought your post was beautifully compassionate and heartfelt. There truly are strong motivations by both the perpetrator of violence and the recipient to minimize how damaging it is. (I know. I did that myself.)

Also, until I finally confessed the true reality of my relationship, NO ONE EVER KNEW! They thought we were a happily married couple. It wasn't until I heard my relationship described as "idyllic" that I finally snapped and set the record straight.

And from my experience, there are many points along the road where one might examine the pros and cons of remaining in the relationship. However, when one finally reaches a breaking point, there is no going back. Only Frankee knows how she feels about the process.

[Radcliff]

Frankee, it feels like you are doing a great job of using Wise Mind, balancing your heart and your brain on this.  Take some time to work through it, as formflier advises.  If you feel your determination start to harden, keep using the tools to buy yourself time.  When my resolve stiffened to take action, I became less tolerant of my wife's abuse, stopped validating, talked back a couple of times, etc., and the rising heat might have raised the risk.  You are going to have to gauge how much time and space you have to work things through.  You might have quite a bit, which is good, but trust your gut if you sense the risk level rising.  I liked what formflier said about planning in person -- the local folks know the local conditions, they can help you in a hurry, and planning with someone in person avoids the risk of having your plans on a computer.

WW

[Cat Familiar]

Frankee,
There's no way in the world that we could ever be prepared for our partners turning on us in violent or verbally abusive ways. It's not something that we would do, so it's hard to imagine that the person we love could do this to us.

I also made excuses for my ex because he was abused by his step-dad until one day when he was big enough to fight back. I don't know if his step-dad was just trying to use corporal punishment or was really violent. But beyond those experiences, within him there existed many mental illnesses, which over time have manifested in unmistakeable ways. He was arrested for assaulting his next wife and fled the state before his arraignment. A nephew has kept me informed about other dysfunctional patterns he's exhibited over the years.

I'm telling you this because I shouldered much of the blame and responsibility for his dysregulations while he was married to me. And now it's obvious that those same patterns keep occurring without me in the picture.

He's blamed you a lot for "lying" or simply omitting information that you thought might trigger him. Is it any wonder that you've done that when you're afraid of his response?

My ex constantly undermined my self-confidence and my self-esteem. He told me how incapable I was, how stupid I was, how much I needed him because I couldn't do it on my own. After I left him, I discovered all those ideas were lies he told me to try and keep me under his control.

You're smart. You're resourceful. And you've got a lot of things to think about at the moment. Please keep posting here so that we can help you talk about your feelings.

Of course you still love him. You wouldn't have been trying so hard to work things out if you didn't. The question is more about your future. How do you imagine the next five years?  

[Frankee]

Also, until I finally confessed the true reality of my relationship, NO ONE EVER KNEW! They thought we were a happily married couple. It wasn't until I heard my relationship described as "idyllic" that I finally snapped and set the record straight.

And from my experience, there are many points along the road where one might examine the pros and cons of remaining in the relationship. However, when one finally reaches a breaking point, there is no going back.

I understand your point on that.  I didn't talk about the abuse, the treatment.  People think that everything is okay.  Only about three people know the some of the truth, one of those know the full extent of it and I have come to find out has seen some of this behavior.  She was scared to talk about it.  So I have found out that I am not the only one who has witness such things.

I wasn't ready.  I keep telling myself, once I start talking about what's going on, that's when I know I am reaching my breaking point.

[Skip]

I wasn't ready.  I keep telling myself, once I start talking about what's going on, that's when I know I am reaching my breaking point.

The relationship is going to get better, or conversely, you are not going to safely exit it if you are waiting for an emotional crescendo to blast you into action.

This cold war that you are in is destructive and unhealthy. You are not the only person to get ensnared in a destructive relationship pattern... .but the reason to come to a support group is to untangle that massive ball of twine; the ball of frustration, past resentments, mixed emotions, and day to day volatility.

The first step to going forward in any direction is to get beyond a vision that is heavily clouded with resentment of the past, day to day frustrations and triggering, and a partner who is rough, and moody and emotionally difficult.

It's time to untangle that massive ball of twine. It's am intellectual exercise - you don't need to take action - its more about laying down the emotional thinking for a little while and trying to sort matters out... .get a clear vision of your life.

[Frankee]

It's time to untangle that massive ball of twine. It's an intellectual exercise - you don't need to take action - its more about laying down the emotional thinking for a little while and trying to sort matters out... .get a clear vision of your life.

I really need that... Real clarity.  The times it seems like I have it, isn't consistent.  It's down times like now where it's calm, no rage, no abusive talk, actually using manners... It throws me for a loop.  It's damaging my ability to form a clear thought. 

The anger, rage, threats, wondering if this time is the real breaking point where he actually does snap.  I can't even remember what the trigger was.  Normally I have a general idea, but this time... Complete silence on any idea.  Now, two days later... Normal.  Carrying on like he never said any of those things.  I get it that's it what they do, but I just snapped this time, like he just pushed me over the edge and that was it.

[formflier]

Use downtime... .calm time to do what you can to recharge and to plan/prepare. 

Lots of ideas have been put up there.  I saw an idea about going to Canada. 

I'm not encouraging or discouraging that idea, but want to help you understand such a move will take planning.

Passports.  If you have them, do you have them for your son?  Do you have access to them?  Can you get a passport privately?  (I could probably think of more things)

Then there is a legal aspect.  You would want to understand from a US lawyer the impact and you would want to understand from a Canadian lawyer the impact. 

Since your safety is involved, there is no place for assumptions

Keep posting and taking steps... .  Some days the steps may be very small.  Other days big ones.   

You can do this.

FF

[babyducks]

Hi Frankee

There has been a lot of good things said in this thread.
   

I wasn't ready.  I keep telling myself, once I start talking about what's going on, that's when I know I am reaching my breaking point.

Talking about these things, sharing them with others is how we move forward.   Writing things out here is a great way to gain clarity.   It also helps to defuse from the stress and tension of the moment.

It's understandable that writing things out will stir up emotions.    It does for all of us.  There is no right and wrong to feelings.    Feelings just are.   Still what has proven to have the best results is to take that emotional intelligence that people are talking about, and begin to pull the feelings apart from the events around them.


In the other thread that you have going Skip said this:

I think before we talk about verbal or emotional abuse, its really important to have a solid picture of the physical abuse.

Can you tell us more about the physical part?    How has that been recently?

'ducks

[sweetheart]

When I worked in addiction services some 20 years ago now, a lot of the focus on the person seeking help was they had to reach their 'rock bottom.' I remember thinking, but that might be too late, why can't we work with them now.

Often with DV there is focus on a particular incident that changes everything when in reality every incident is that 'particular incident' when you're living that life.

My situation is not similar but I did feel trapped to the point of inaction when I first came here. I wasn't in a situation where I felt I could just up and leave so I learnt to make plans and whilst making plans I made the very best use of the tools that I could.
I realised very quickly that disentangling myself from our existing patterns of talking to each other would and did decrease the intensity and frequency of my husband's dysregulated behaviour. My husband was never physically abusive, but his behaviour was out of control, add in delusional and paranoid thinking and it was an explosive mix.

Because I couldn't up and leave, I like Skip says started untangling the ball of string. Letting go of past resentments, old patterns of behaviour and read and reread what Radical Acceptance really means.

My h got worse but not with me, he just deteriorated to the point for him of needing long term hospitalisation.

You don't have to make any massive life changing decisions all at once on any one day. The key issues are keeping you and your children safe while you slowly unravel your ball of string. And also having a Safety Action Plan for when you recognise that things are just too risky to manage by yourself.

Do you have an idea of what your Safety Plan might look like, and that can be in action whilst living in the house?
Are your children aware of the DV, are they equipped with the necessary plans to know what to do if there is an emergency?

[Frankee]

Because I couldn't up and leave, I like Skip says started untangling the ball of string. Letting go of past resentments, old patterns of behaviour and read and reread what Radical Acceptance really means.

You don't have to make any massive life changing decisions all at once on any one day. The key issues are keeping you and your children safe while you slowly unravel your ball of string. And also having a Safety Action Plan for when you recognise that things are just too risky to manage by yourself.

Thank you for all the replies.  I appreciate the understanding about not being able to up and leave, letting go of past resentments, not having to make a massive life change.  It makes me feel better and not in "urgent" mode.  

I still can't help feel that a giant wedge has just been staked right through this relationship.  I feel so frustrated because of the things he has done in the past.  Then three days ago or so, making me genuinely feel like that was the end of it and I was in a situation I wasn't prepared for.  

I use to refer to it as a rollercoaster ride.  The best way to described the last three days, is like jumping off a bridge, then thinking your bungee cord is broken and falling to your death and last minute get bounced right back up.

Do you have an idea of what your Safety Plan might look like, and that can be in action whilst living in the house?
Are your children aware of the DV, are they equipped with the necessary plans to know what to do if there is an emergency?

I've gotten a list of contact information for local DV places.  Already talked to a lawyer about my situation.  Found a couple loop holes that will work to my benefit.  Got some information from the abuse hotline about address confidentiality program, guide on talking to kids about DV, and self care tips for abuse survivors.  I'm trying to figure out where to store some grab bags in case I have to suddenly leave the house.  I even asked the lawyer if he could call an amber alert on me if I took the kids and ran.  The kids are 7 and almost 2.  I haven't made anything know to them yet.  The two year old will just go where I go.  The 7 year old will be more questioning.

I feel one of the best thing I can do right now is get knowledge, information, and talk to local resources.  If that situation happens again, I won't be nearly as rattled by the realization of being unprepared.  I read about radical acceptance and it makes sense.  Applying it is a little more challenging.



For those not from the US and/or who do not know, an Amber Alert is America's Missing: Broadcast Emergency Response. It is used in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Indian country, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and 22 other countries in child abduction situation. ~Meili

[Skip]

If that situation happens again, I won't be nearly as rattled by the realization of being unprepared.  

Is this the situation you are referring to:

Told me he is done with me, has gotten to the point where a "man" needs to ask himself if this woman makes me happy or miserable.  Then asked me what is he getting out of this relationship, said that he's tired of feeling this way, I always make him mad, miserable.  Telling me he's "stuck" with me for the next X amount of months till we get this house and after that I can be on my way.

[Frankee]

Is this the situation you are referring to:

Quote from: Frankee on January 01, 2018, 10:03:54 AM
Told me he is done with me, has gotten to the point where a "man" needs to ask himself if this woman makes me happy or miserable.  Then asked me what is he getting out of this relationship, said that he's tired of feeling this way, I always make him mad, miserable.  Telling me he's "stuck" with me for the next X amount of months till we get this house and after that I can be on my way.

Yes.  Not the first time I've had this kind of speech, just varies a little bit in the context.  But same idea.

[formflier]

Yes.  Not the first time I've had this kind of speech, just varies a little bit in the context.  But same idea.

How long would you imagine it would take someone, with consistent effort and good therapy... .change this type of behavior and the outlook on life that drives it?

FF