She called me "my ex boyfriend Joe" but she can't move out

[formflier]

  As I'm taking more time and space for myself, the number of conflicts also decreases.

This makes sense to me.

What does that mean for the future of your relationship?  What actions on your part increase stability in her family?

FF

[JoeBPD81]

Oh, makes sense, the less RS, the less conflict, no RS, no conflict. Thanks! 

Just kidding. Today is a very weird day, you know?

When I spend time with the kids, alone, stability increases. And it goes well. But in time I feel like I have the kids, but I have no girlfriend.

We never had a story of us, dating, and such. The kids where there from the begining. As part of the deal, I take them fully. But it is very strange to have a relationship with them and not with their mom.

I mean, imagine a dating app post: "I wanna have a relationship with your kids but not with you, call me". It is unthinkable.

I feel very selfish saying this, but it feels wrong to be strenghtening the bond with the kids while losing her.

[pearlsw]

Oh, makes sense, the less RS, the less conflict, no RS, no conflict. Thanks!  

Just kidding. Today is a very weird day, you know?

When I spend time with the kids, alone, stability increases. And it goes well. But in time I feel like I have the kids, but I have no girlfriend.

We never had a story of us, dating, and such. The kids where there from the begining. As part of the deal, I take them fully. But it is very strange to have a relationship with them and not with their mom.

I mean, imagine a dating app post: "I wanna have a relationship with your kids but not with you, call me". It is unthinkable.

I feel very selfish saying this, but it feels wrong to be strenghtening the bond with the kids while losing her.

Hi Joe,

Sorry! I am not all caught up here, but I know you've been having a hard time! I know it must be hard with the kids, but all you give to them is a gift for their development and happiness in life. I only had my dad for 16 years, but he has been the source of what has grounded me the most in life. What you give to these kids matters. You may not see the "rewards" of it, but they will and there are surely rewards in life for just being a good person in the face of such pain! If only one or two of these from me:    or more!    

with compassion, pearl.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks for the hugs. Last week I would have taken a hug from any stranger and cry for a day. Now I'm emotionaly detached, I don't wanna get sad, or anything. I feel anger is the closest emotion to emerge.

I did some exercise yesterday and it felt good. I had a present for Valentine's, and I left it in my GF's bed when she went out to smoke at night. She was wearing it this morning, but I didn't want to go into it, or analyze anything. I'm glad she didn't either.

The last 2 days, when I get home, there is an extra yummy home-cooked meal waiting for me. So I count my blessings.

I wish I knew how to transfer some energy from "good person" to "happy person". I used to think that doing the right thing and being generous had its own reward, but I'm not sure I do good anymore. My ex-wife kept demanding more and more and making me feel always like "not good enough", and she wasn't ever happy. And my GF's states often that she was much happier when she was in an abusive marriage. I've seen her deteriorating more and more since we are together.

Well, if I keep like this I'm gonna get sad. And I refuse today!

[formflier]

So, it would appear these relationship patterns have appeared before.  I saw you post something about an ex-wife.

I'm wondering if you are "accepting" the relationship that is hear for you, vice seeking the relationship that you need.

Your post about the on-line dating profile was striking.  I readily agree that nobody would reach out to that person.  How is it different for you now?  Why continue something that you seem to understand is "at best"... "way off".

FF

[JoeBPD81]

There is a clear pattern among my relationships. I seem to be involved in all of them. I've been in only two. A marriage of 16 years, and this one, going for 4.

It has similitudes, but the dinamics were very different. We had no kids, and we made a good team. I was very comfortable, we both were. But we were more friends than a couple, I thought it was normal in time, but she kept complaining and demanding more romanticism and adventure. In time I realized she wasn't  doing any work towards that but demanding, and that I wasn't satisfied either, but that in order to be happy, I wanted totally opposite things than what she wanted. I wanted to settle down and have kids.

I try to tell you often. I don't think about a relationship, I think about a person that I love and that I really fear she's going to die. I understand that maybe what I do to keep her alive is the same that will doom the relationship.

I can see it is enabling, but she's not all day in bed, or drinking or anything like that. She keeps looking for a job, she goes to interviews, and sends docens of resumes, she takes care of the kids full time, not only their basic needs, but she cares about the things that make them happy. She cleans and cooks, and does all the shopping. She does errands for me anytime she hears I need something.

I get desperate about us, about the frustration of being unfairly judged and acused, about getting the end of an anger I didn't cause, about walking on eggshels and that it doesn't work... .But mostly about seeing her so deeply hurt. 

I don't want to seek another relationship, at least I'm not in a hurry to do that. I think that breaking up could do us both some good (not the kids), but turning her into a homeless person, it won't help anyone. I can't live with that.

It isn't either that I want to break up and I can't, I don't want it. I want to see her everyday. Maybe I'm in denial.

About anorexia I was told "someone has to be the keeper of hope", she has none.  From my place, she has a chance. If she turns the kids to the ex, she has nothing to live for, she wouldn't last a week.

I shouldn't be responsible for this person. I know. That doesn't mean that I could drop her of the cliff. I love her. I can't love her and at the same time not being there for her. I can't say I love her and do less than 100% of what I can do. It might as well be me who puts a soft place for her to fall. Everyone else has given up on her. I could live with any of my siblings and my parents would take me happily. I have friends on whose houses I could crash if I needed to, and they would welcome me too. She is not that lucky. And she carries two kids with her.

[formflier]

Are you buying into her words and thinking about "dropping her off a cliff"?

Or are those yours?

FF

[JoeBPD81]

My words.

I know her mother, and sister, and her ex, and her father. There is no hope there.

She's not presuring me into staying, on the contrary, she hates depending on me.

Last monday she went to see the principal of the school to beg her for a job to pay for the school with labor, instead of money. Scrubbing toilets or whatever.  She is the most brilliant student and interpreter I've met, and she's begging for cleaning toilets.

I meant, I'm holding her hand, if I let go, she falls. At this point I can't say "you're not my problem" and let go. No amount of justification would make me feel good about that decission.

[formflier]

So... .listen, bpdfamily is not going to pressure you one way or another.  Stay or go.

We do "pressure" people to be honest with themselves.  If there is only one course of actions that you "can" do, then... .what is the conflict in your relationship?  Yes... that's a bit rhetorical.

Of course you have many options.  Is it accurate to say that you don't "feel" as though you can do other things? 

I'm very curious about this notion that she has to have a "soft landing" or you have to catch her.  I'm wondering it that leads her to take risks she otherwise wouldn't do, knowing there are no consequences.


Said another way, when you read improvement books, to most people learn more from success than from failure?

Why insulate anyone from consequences of their actions and decisions?  What incentive will they ever have to improve?

FF

[juju2]

Hi Joe,

sorry to hear you are dealing w all if this.

Was going to share w you  my experience, strength, and hope.

i have been going to alanon, it helps a lot.

there is a saying there, "stop doing something, just sit there."

i over do.  Then i get expectations.  Then i get let down.  Then i get a resentment, and on it goes.  Always worse, never better.

What i found out, by looking at my part, looking at me, not the other person, is i get better, healthier.

Changed attitudes aid recovery.

everything around me gets better.

i can pause, do nothing, think about what i should or should not say, or do, and its much better for me.

the other thing i am doing, is being of service in the community where i live.  There is something about helping strangers, caring about someone, when i have nothing to gain.  it all helps me, i benefit.

That isn't why I am doing it.  all this stuff works together.

Alanon is a program of attraction, not promotion.  No one can say if you should go or not.

It wasn't until I met my dxpwBPD that i realized much later, that i had bad co dependent issues, and the mix of non /BPD was toxic for our r/s.  It's because of my untreated co dependent issues that we are separated now  since march, after 10 yrs living together.  We are going to counseling.

Things can get better!

Hang in there!  j

[JoeBPD81]

Of course you have many options.  Is it accurate to say that you don't "feel" as though you can do other things?  

It is accurate. I would not only betray them, I would be betraying myself.

I'm very curious about this notion that she has to have a "soft landing" or you have to catch her.  I'm wondering it that leads her to take risks she otherwise wouldn't do, knowing there are no consequences.

I don't know how the expression goes. I just meant having a bed and a roof over her head. In this case, a mattress on the floor. But the kids have each one room with a proper bed.

Said another way, when you read improvement books, to most people learn more from success than from failure?

Why insulate anyone from consequences of their actions and decisions?  What incentive will they ever have to improve?

This is turning into a circle where I defend her. And the more I defend her the more I look in denial of her abuse. In a way it is good because it reminds me of why I do things, but I think I'm losing your respect.

This situation is not success for her. She led a full life with a rewarding job where she was valued, in the town of her dreams. That was success. Her ex was abusive, but would spend most of the time in the bar or socializing, so they didn't see him much. When he started abusing S6 (now S11) she reported him and got a restraining order. After that he threatened to kill her, and tried to take their car, with his own baby on board, out of the road. She couldn't stay in that town. He told the kids he didn't want to see them again, and he's keeping his word for these 4 years.

She came to the big city, because her mom and sisters were here. She figured that they would love at least the kids, and they would get some support. Lived there the 3 of them in a bedroom, in three joined mattresses, for 2 and a half years. The mother wouldn't stay with the kids for therapy, job interviews, or medical appointments. Just because she didn't feel like it. She was enjoying a free cleaning lady, errand girl and cook. It was a sickening environment for the 3 of them. There was no possible progress there.

They started coming the full weekend to my house, and we were happy. So everyone asked her to move out, her mom offered to pay for one kid's school (which she never did) if she left. They wouldn't stop saying it, with the excuse that I was "such a good man". I also asked many times, I wanted to take them out of there, and eventually she said yes. The last months the line from her mum was: "If you go we could get a dog, because it's your fault that we can't get one". And the dog was ordered before she went out the door. My Gf is deadly allergic.

Does this situation sound like the consequences of her actions and decisions? She believes that. She believes she had doomed 3 people, and now she is dooming 4. But to me it also sounds like she's been kicked out by two people who swore to love and protect her and her kids.

What I'm sure of is: I didn't cause this. Any of it.

But I'm also sure that this is failure for her. This isn't even life. She's been threatened before, and kicked out and it didn't motivate her. It gives her the cue to give up completely. When she is not in the dark place, she wants nothing more than pulling her own weight.

I wish someone could say:I understand why you have them there. Is it so crazy?

 

[JoeBPD81]

Juju
Thanks for your support, I'm happy to hear you are hopeful and finding meaninful things to cheer you up.

I had looked up Al-anon before, but I forgot. I'll check my local group.

Thanks!

[Harley Quinn]

Joe it's not crazy. I understand why you have them there.

My ex was a diagnosed BPD sufferer. He had also been cast out by his family and despite many efforts on his part to reach out to them, they turned him away, no matter how desperate the situation. He had no friends to speak of who weren't drug associations only interested in his money.

He was suicidal and made many attempts on his life. His mother said he should go ahead and kill himself because he'd be doing everyone a favour. His father refused to take him in as he 'didn't have space' although just he and his wife lived in a 4 bedroom house.

My ex was verbally and emotionally abusive, eventually becoming violent. He often used threats and manipulation and I was exhausted anxious and depressed. But I loved him and saw the wounded boy inside of him lashing out. I was deeply unhappy. A point arrived in our relationship where I was being forced to make the decision to put him out onto the street or else suffer other major consequences and I couldn't do it. I knew he had nowhere to go and nobody to turn to. He was vulnerable and likely to take his life if in that situation. I couldn't let that happen.  But I also knew the terrible implications of that choice too, on myself. So I fully understand why you feel as you do. You're not alone.

Love and light x

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot HQ,

I know I have to keep my eyes open, and not lie to myself. But it means a lot that someone understands. Ad to that 2 inocent children, who had no choice in the matter. I complain about them, but their teacher have told me that they've seen a big improvement since they have a home, and me as a dad. Putting them on the street (or on the hands of really bad people) is wrong, and it's not a close call.

The RS is not easy, but what really hurts is to see her so unhappy, and seeing her giving up and telling me she's leaving.

I'd appreciate your prayers, because she has a job interview tomorrow.

You wouldn't believe how talented she is, she is really gifted. I'm not a people person, and there aren't too many people I admire. She could have been a Motzart or an Einstein, or a Rembrandt if she had a bit of support growing up. I wish she writes her story, she just needs a happy ending.

[Harley Quinn]

So do you Joe. I hope that she is successful and that this presents a new set of options for you both which are more positive. Let us know how things go.

Love and light x

[Speck]

I understand why you have them there.

I do, Joe. I really do. But, I'm also a recovering co-dependent.

I've read this entire thread, and what strikes me most about having done so is that I see that you are certainly in a self-reported "tough spot." You are, indeed, a good, good, man who just wants to do the proverbial right thing by these kids and their mother who is, by both your and her accounts, suffering from quite a bit of dysregulated thinking. You have helped her at whatever cost, especially to YOU.  And, as you well know, that in itself is also disordered thinking.

The more you do for your GF the less agency she has to correct/fix/repair what's eating her.

Now, that she has officially broken up with you, she may have let you off the meat hook just enough for you to learn to back away slowly from all the over-caretaking that you have gifted her. Slow and steady is the key.

Maybe now is the time to re-focus and re-invest your energies inward, rather than outward. Because, as you have also noted, the more you help her, the worse she gets.

There came a point in my own relationship that I, too, had to back away slowly from my uBPDw. In other words, I am learning how to secure my own oxygen mask... .

Thank you for sharing and trusting your story with us. Keep writing.


-Speck

[formflier]

The more you do for your GF the less agency she has to correct/fix/repair what's eating her.

  from all the over-caretaking that you have gifted her. 

Speck has identified the critical thing for ALL caretakers to understand, not just the OP.  It's also wise to  realize that this is (for many) a bit counter-intuitive.

You would think (at first glance) that giving someone a break, helping them out of a tough spot will help them achieve their life goals or some other short term goals.  And... for some... .that may be true.

Critical to focus on big picture and not small picture.  Look at trends.

Last thought:  Another way of thinking about over caretaking is to potentially call it "over functioning".  Ask yourself if people normally do this for others.

FF

[Speck]

Last thought:  Another way of thinking about over-caretaking is to potentially call it "over-functioning".  Ask yourself if people normally do this for others.

Brilliant.  That's exactly my point and one that I, too, have to keep in mind!  'Cause, Lord knows, I'm guilty.


-Speck

[formflier]

I realize there may be a language barrier with some that read these threads.

Please don't hear that we shouldn't do things for others, even extraordinary things. 

The key to evaluating are you "helping"  or "care taking" or "enabling" or (heaven forbid) "hurting" a situation is to evaluate things over time.  To look at the trends.

For instance:  Personally, I've been involved in natural disasters (that triggered BPD in my family) and was forced off my farm for about 6 months.  Another family took us in, the community rallied around us, equipment was donated.  Over time, my family did more and they helped less. 

Were there times I wished they would come back... .oh you bet (especially the free track hoe).  Yet... .free track hoes, free labor and all the rest is not the norm.  Part of healing and getting back to normal is... well... getting back to normal  Which meant for me that those safety nets went away.

I'll hush now and hopefully the OP will come along again soon and share his thoughts.

FF

[Harley Quinn]

Joe, how are you doing?  I'm sending positive vibes for the interview. 

To follow Speck and FF's replies, I feel I ought to share with you that after things progressed in my r/s from the point I told you about earlier, I did make that decision.  I reached my limit and put my safety and well being first.  This meant that my ex became homeless.  Yes, I did put him out onto the street.  Which was the hardest thing I ever had to do.  But it came down to a choice and one that literally was about survival.  

Please note that I am not suggesting this is what you do.  However the next part is the reason I'm sharing this.  He got help.  The helpless vulnerable unstable suicidal man got help for himself, by seeking the support he was entitled to as such and was put into emergency accommodation.  The last time he contacted me was to tell me he got his own flat and was starting his own business.  

Again, this is not to give you advice on a course of action.  It is to highlight that it is possible for people who claim to be unable to help themselves to actually turn that around when they need to.  When someone else isn't helping them, they can choose to help themselves.  I hope that you will think on this and consider how you can subtly apply this to your own situation in a normal every day scenario where you would normally take the lead, stepping back instead and allowing things to unfold.  What do you think?  Is there something that springs to mind that might be a place to start?

Love and light x  

[formflier]

HQ,

I'm glad to be getting a better understanding of your story.  We all have "stories" about how we got here.

Can you share some about the strategies that you used to attempt to get your pwBPD to get help, before putting yourself first?   Did you try to engage him about lesser issues, and did that work.

Obviously, Joe is here for many reasons.  One obvious reason is to figure out "what is my next step"?


The "next step" and the "final step" will likely be "several steps" apart.  In fact, we don't know (as it is unknowable) how many steps are in there or what the final step will be.

But... .we can make decisions about this week... .about tomorrow... .about the next time my pwBPD does (fill in the blank).

I think we can all agree that the hope is that Joe's GF realizes what a deal she has and take steps in a positive direction.  There certainly are stories on bpdfamily that support that.  There are also stories where a pwBPD wants no part of "healthy" and there is sadness.

Anway... .I'm hoping knowing more about your story can help Joe to the "next step" towards healthy.

FF

[pearlsw]

The RS is not easy, but what really hurts is to see her so unhappy, and seeing her giving up and telling me she's leaving.

I'd appreciate your prayers, because she has a job interview tomorrow.

You wouldn't believe how talented she is, she is really gifted. I'm not a people person, and there aren't too many people I admire. She could have been a Motzart or an Einstein, or a Rembrandt if she had a bit of support growing up. I wish she writes her story, she just needs a happy ending.

Hi Joe, Oh, I really, really hope she gets a break and gets this job! It can make such a difference, push things in a more positive direction, when we can just catch a break in life! I know you love her so much! Praying for you both!    

[JoeBPD81]

There is a strategy in education called "sink or swim".

If you throw a kid to the deep end of a swiming pool, chances are he will learn to swim, to save his life. He'll have a mildly scary story to tell, and for the father throwing the kid, and the son, it will be a story of success. Everybody is happy.

But what if the kid sinks, and drowns? It would not only kill the kid, it would turn the father into a murderer. And the family would be devastated.

It demands a very bold choice. But what if the kid has not one but several mental illneses? Is still a legitimate teaching tool?


Of course I get that the more I help this adult person, the less she is motivated to take control of her own life. Or it's like that  with many people. I reflect about it since the RS began. It's another thing if I get it right, or if I make the right choices.

It is crazy that I help her, being my ex-gf. But it didn't start like that. We were a family, and we hoped to be a happy one. Any family wants to live together. There wasn't over functioning then, I wasn't doing an extraordinary thing.

Now... .It makes no sense. Except I love her. And I don't feel like I'm overcaring by keeping the roof over her head. I don't do much more than that.

I wake up, I have breakfast alone (every one's sleeping), and I go to work. I come back and I'm alone until 6-7 pm. Then they come, I can be with them or I can do my things. At 9 pm the kids go to bed, and I say good night to their mother too. I read, or watch a movie or whatever, then sleep and start another day. When she was my GF, I would spend time with her, mostly chatting. She does all the shopping, all the cooking, and all the work around the house, even my laundry. She pays for the shopping, my food included.

So where do I make cuts from my help?

I know it sounds like she threatens to leave (and/or kill herself) so I double my efforts to make her stay and help her. I don't beg, or make promises. I don't push her out either.

If she had no kids, I would tell her "this has to stop. You have until X day to leave".

I keep a small hope that she would love me again. Very small. And when I ad that to the fact that the kids ARE improving, I want to act on that hope.

I could kick them out and they could be successful. But I will be the guy who kicked them out, not a boyfriend, not a father, not a part of the family anymore. If they lose, I lose, if they win, I lose (them) too.

I've read many stories of recovery from anorexia. Almost all of them have someone who never gave up on them, even if they pushed and pushed this person away, they had a keeper of hope. There are not so many stories of recovery, most of them end in organ failure, or suicide.

I work in an unemployment office. My country has almost 20% of unemployment rate. It's really hard to get a job. If 400 aplicants want a job, you can safely take out the single mothers over 35 with 2 kids. And you still can chose from 380 aplicants. It is not that she refuses to work, or to hunt for it.

I got very depressed when I had to hunt for jobs. It kills my self esteem. I know I can do any job efficiently, but I don't know how to convince the employers of that. Every step in job hunting, for me, it's torture. I procrastinated a lot. A lot. Facing that they don't call back, or don't select me, it's so painful that I don't want to ask. I don't even wanted to think about asking. I ended up taking a Government exam because it was simple, you score high, you have the job. No wondering why they took me or not.

So I have a soft spot for this. If I didn't succedd in 4 years, like her (only short temporal jobs), I would have killed myself. And I didn't have kids depending on me, I didn't have an illness that wants me dead, I had many people in my life who valued and loved me. I didn't have all those terrifying traumas in my past... .

If she was a friend, I would find a way to put her need out of my mind. I would pass my day without thinking about her problems. And I would put distance, unconciously. "This friend is trouble". And my concience would be just a bit bothered by it very rarely. Her kids would be something abstract, a notion. But she is the woman I love, and these are the kids that call me dad.

We started as a family. The things I do that go over providing a place, are for the kids, I show them love, I give them my time. If I turn into "the landlord" for months, I don't know if we could get back from that. To keep my hope, it means to keep being a dad.

No matter what I do, they could go next month.

When she gets a job, if that doesn't change things soon, I'll have to step out. I don't like suffering for sport.

I think you understand that I suffer not because how much I do to help, I suffer because she fights every step of that help, and she can't show me respect or caring. If she was kind to me on a regular basis, I would be happy giving what I give and more. And THAT is wrong, my happiness shouldn't depend on someone else's kindness. My steps, the most urgent, but not the only ones, have to be to solve that.

I had to google "track hoe" :-)  When FF went out of the farm, the comunity helped, and you asume that kind of help is temporal. There are kinds of help that are supposed to be forever, those of your parents. She never had that. She got to this point because she has lived without a safety net. Starting as a kid, they didn't protect her from being raped, abused bullied... .In fact, her family did the abuse. Most of us have even a small net of support. She has me.

When HQ kicked her ex, she wasn't kicking 2 inocent children with him. In fact she was protecting her relationship with her own son. Which is absolutely the right thing to do.

You guys can't even SAY "you should kick them out" (and I get it, and I understand you don't necesarily mean that), so how am I supposed to DO it?

I don't know how many steps I can take before the only thing left to do is that, withdraw my support completelly. I don't know how long it will be before I reach my breaking point and I'll have to do it, even if I think it's completely wrong.

I could kick her out thinking I'm doing her a favor. But that gets mixed with my own agenda, with how much I want to be free of stress, want to do whatever I like (or not do whatever I don't like), or how much I want to have sex again, or save money, or travel, or whatever. I can't pretend I don't have interests in a life free of responsibilities.

I think one of the next steps is finding therapy for me, and ask for help about figuring out more steps.

Thanks for the prayers, the support and the challenges.

[Harley Quinn]

Joe,

Thanks for filling us in further on your lifestyle.  I'm glad to hear that you are not doing things that she could do for herself and also that she is doing her fair share for the family and contributing financially.  It's clear that she is a devoted mother and I feel that the parenting thing she will figure out and perfect in her own time as any parent does.  Having kids with ADHD or other similar acting out disorders is extremely trying.  A close friend of mine spends a great deal of time off loading her difficulties with her son when we are together and I know that is what she needs to do as the stress involved is extreme and many techniques seem to make only minor differences.  What you are doing in remaining dad is absolutely right.  You are involved and love these kids.  Your influence on them regardless of how things progress in the family is really valuable, both to them and to yourself. 

Try to think of any specific instances that create tension.  How can you find a way to reduce that opportunity for tension to build?  When things are calm are the two of you able to sit down and talk about what approach you take when they arise?  For example, a situation where she reacts badly to your methods with the kids?  Is there something you can agree you will both follow on such occasions so you're both working in the same direction? 

I think one of the next steps is finding therapy for me, and ask for help about figuring out more steps.

Now this sounds like a great plan.  Can you make this a priority today? 

As a problem solver myself I did a ton of research into what help was available in every eventuality, both for myself and for my ex partner.  Whether that was something that was utilised or not, I had to know what was out there.  Maybe when you carve out your time for yourself and your study, you could cast a wide net and see what you can find for peace of mind.  I was surprised to see that there were charitable organisations, public services and other private agencies which I'd never come across who offered direct help in so many areas that applied to us.  Just having that knowledge helped ease the pressure of the situation for me. 

I'd like to think that you could find some ease for yourself amid this emotional turmoil that you find yourself in.  You're a very strong and loyal man.  Take pride in remaining true to your values and doing your level best here.  It's clear to all of us how much this means to you and no one can question your love for her.  Put as much effort into yourself too.  You deserve that care.   

Keep us posted on the interview outcome.  Rooting for you both.

Love and light x

[formflier]

Joe,

To be clear, I don't think you should kick her out.  I think over time, you clarify the choices YOU are offering and you RESPECT her choice, regardless of if you agree with it or not.  I get the sense that you believe many of us really want to say "give her the boot"... .perhaps tomorrow or next week.  I don't feel that way.

Solid post.  I see lots of your thinking.  Thanks for being so open.  My responses are NOT criticism but that are meant to shine light on how your attitudes have guided YOUR relationship to where it is today.  If you want your relationship to change, that will have to start with you.

There is a strategy in education called "sink or swim".

If you throw a kid to the deep end of a swiming pool, chances are he will learn to swim, to save his life. He'll have a mildly scary story to tell, and for the father throwing the kid, and the son, it will be a story of success. Everybody is happy.

But what if the kid sinks, and drowns? It would not only kill the kid, it would turn the father into a murderer. And the family would be devastated.

It demands a very bold choice. But what if the kid has not one but several mental illneses? Is still a legitimate teaching tool?

I don't think it ever is a legitimate teaching tool.  Seriously.  I have big family, we swim a lot (I was a lifeguard... awesome job by the way) 

Teach them to swim in safety.  Take those that want to go to the deep end to the deep end and make the others get out of the shallow end and sit on the bleachers.  No big deal, their choice... .they don't want to go to the deep end.  Everybody else goes and even if one says they "can't", they go sit on bleachers and watch the rest. 

What doesn't happen is that the class doesn't stop.  Another lifeguard isn't hired to stay with them in the shallow end.  They get to make a choice and experience the result of that choice.  Perhaps they take the class over, perhaps they decide half way through the "deep end time" that it's time to come try.

I welcomed them with open arms.

Perhaps they decide swimming isn't for them and they never come back to class.

It's their choice, their life.

It is crazy that I help her, being my ex-gf. But it didn't start like that. We were a family, and we hoped to be a happy one. Any family wants to live together. There wasn't over functioning then, I wasn't doing an extraordinary thing.

Right... .I get that.  Then you made choices to "save" her from the results of her choices.  Likely because you "love" her so much.

Boyfriends and girlfriends that live together tend to act a certain way.  You provide certain things and she provides certain things.  One of the things a girlfriend provides is love, affection, calls you a boyfriend... etc etc.

When SHE chose to STOP doing the girlfriend things it is natural to expect YOU to STOP doing the boyfriend things, one of which is providing a place for you to to build a future together.  She has told you she doesn't want that.

 

Now... .It makes no sense. Except I love her. And I don't feel like I'm overcaring by keeping the roof over her head. I don't do much more than that.

I disagree. 

Putting your life on hold, because of your love for someone that has told you and shown you they don't love you and want a future with you is a HUGE deal.

Because it keeps you stuck.  It also keeps her stuck. 

Honestly, that is a bigger deal to me than providing a roof. 

.

So where do I make cuts from my help?

I'll certainly let others weigh in here.  But this is not your responsibility either.  Don't over function for her.

Big picture:  We can fill in blanks later.  Communicate to her that this relationship isn't working for you.  You guys moved in together to be boyfriend and girlfriend and be a family. 

That's what you want and that's what you need.  If she is willing to go back down that road, you are ready to walk with her.

If she is not willing to walk down that road towards togetherness, let her know you are sad and respect HER DECISION to end the relationship. 

It's not your job to make this OK for her... .to make ending a relationship easy.  That's her stuff to figure out.

I know it sounds like she threatens to leave (and/or kill herself) so I double my efforts to make her stay and help her. I don't beg, or make promises. I don't push her out either.

We'll need a separate thread to work on the day to day of what this looks like. 

If someone is threatening suicide, generally best to let professionals handle that.

If someone threatens to leave, express sadness (succinctly) and respect their decision.

This dynamic is likely much more complicated than a couple sentences from me or you, hence my encouragement for a separate thread, just on this dynamic.

If she had no kids, I would tell her "this has to stop. You have until X day to leave".

Another thing likely better handled in separate post.

Quickly:  Don't hand responsibility for your decisions to anyone but YOU.

I keep a small hope that she would love me again. Very small. And when I ad that to the fact that the kids ARE improving, I want to act on that hope.

Frankly:  I don't see much hope for your relationship to come back together on your current path.  She likely doesn't RESPECT you. 

There are many things you can change, short of kicking her out, to start establishing respect again in the relationship.

I could kick them out and they could be successful. But I will be the guy who kicked them out, not a boyfriend, not a father, not a part of the family anymore. If they lose, I lose, if they win, I lose (them) too.

Are you really... .really part of a family now? 

How is it your responsibility to kick them out or keep them in.

Look at the shift in thinking... .

"I'm sad my girlfriend decided to end our relationship."

compared to

"My girlfriend ended our relationship, I'm sad because I'm responsible for the results of her ending the relationship."

I've read many stories of recovery from anorexia. Almost all of them have someone who never gave up on them, even if they pushed and pushed this person away, they had a keeper of hope. There are not so many stories of recovery, most of them end in organ failure, or suicide.

I think we should have a thread about what "giving up" looks like.  I think you equate giving up with letting her experience her choices. 

I equate giving up with going NC... permanently. 

There are many, many options in between your life now and my version of "giving up".

I work in an unemployment office. My country has almost 20% of unemployment rate. It's really hard to get a job. If 400 aplicants want a job, you can safely take out the single mothers over 35 with 2 kids. And you still can chose from 380 aplicants. It is not that she refuses to work, or to hunt for it.

Relationships are "work".  I'm sure you can find tons of books that say that.  Does she refuse to "work" on her relationship with you?

Really, there are two threads of thinking here that need to be separated.

Is she willing to do what it takes to be your GF?

Are you willing to do what it takes to be her BF?

If both answers are yes, then there is a way forward.  Then all these other details matter.

If either one of you says that you are NOT willing to do what it takes to be in relationship with the other, then the unemployment rate really doesn't matter... does it?

I got very depressed when I had to hunt for jobs. It kills my self esteem. I know I can do any job efficiently, but I don't know how to convince the employers of that. Every step in job hunting, for me, it's torture. I procrastinated a lot. A lot. Facing that they don't call back, or don't select me, it's so painful that I don't want to ask. I don't even wanted to think about asking. I ended up taking a Government exam because it was simple, you score high, you have the job. No wondering why they took me or not.

You looked at your knowledge skills and abilities and got a job that matches. 

You are experiencing the results of YOUR CHOICES.

So I have a soft spot for this. If I didn't succedd in 4 years, like her (only short temporal jobs), I would have killed myself. And I didn't have kids depending on me, I didn't have an illness that wants me dead, I had many people in my life who valued and loved me. I didn't have all those terrifying traumas in my past... .

Really?  Is this really what you think you would have done? 

If she was a friend, I would find a way to put her need out of my mind. I would pass my day without thinking about her problems. And I would put distance, unconciously. "This friend is trouble". And my concience would be just a bit bothered by it very rarely. Her kids would be something abstract, a notion. But she is the woman I love, and these are the kids that call me dad.

Yes... .

Is that love reciprocated?     

I'm not suggesting any path is easy.  Frankly, changing this will be hard for you.

I'm also convinced that changes will INCREASE the chances that she will reciprocate your feelings.

There are no guarantees in life. 

We started as a family. The things I do that go over providing a place, are for the kids, I show them love, I give them my time. If I turn into "the landlord" for months, I don't know if we could get back from that. To keep my hope, it means to keep being a dad.

Yes you did start as a family.  Did YOU decide to end that?  Did the children?

Place responsibility where it belongs.  Let the people that make choices be responsible for those choices and experience the results of those choices.

No matter what I do, they could go next month.

You are correct.  Or tomorrow.

When she gets a job, if that doesn't change things soon, I'll have to step out. I don't like suffering for sport.

Please don't find reasons to "wait" to let her experience her choices.

I think you understand that I suffer not because how much I do to help, I suffer because she fights every step of that help, and she can't show me respect or caring.

Take responsibility for YOUR suffering.  You suffer because YOU fight against someone who has clearly said and acted in ways that say they don't want it.

If she was kind to me on a regular basis, I would be happy giving what I give and more. And THAT is wrong, my happiness shouldn't depend on someone else's kindness. My steps, the most urgent, but not the only ones, have to be to solve that.

Right... I think. 

I still don't understand why you are "doing things to someone" that is unhappy about "what you are doing to them".

I think I have the analogy right.  Do you believe you know better than she does about how to live her life?

RESPECT:  It's easy when people agree.  It's hard when people don't agree.  What I see is two people that don't respect each others choices.

I'm not aware of anyway to have a loving relationship without respect.  Which is why the focus needs to be there... .first... .and then hope the love rekindles.

I had to google "track hoe" :-)  When FF went out of the farm, the comunity helped, and you asume that kind of help is temporal.

Correct, I'm not aware of any situation where this kind of help is NOT temporal.

There are kinds of help that are supposed to be forever, those of your parents.

I disagree.  Help and family are different.  Yes I have helped my parents and they have helped me, but by and large we are independent families now, vice interdependent. 

We do have an affect on each other, so we have to communicate in a respectful way and be considerate of our effect on others.

She never had that. She got to this point because she has lived without a safety net. Starting as a kid, they didn't protect her from being raped, abused bullied... .In fact, her family did the abuse. Most of us have even a small net of support. She has me.

And she has choices to keep you and to say no to you.

Is it safe for her to say no to what you offer? 

I'm not for a minute suggesting she has all the life skills she needs or that she had a good childhood.  I am suggesting she be "allowed" to grow and mature on her own.

When HQ kicked her ex, she wasn't kicking 2 inocent children with him. In fact she was protecting her relationship with her own son. Which is absolutely the right thing to do.

Again... .I would argue that HQ did NOT "kick her husband out".  Although I do see that point of view.

HQ said "I won't live this way anymore.  If you decide to live a different way I'll be sad for you"

HQ... .please modify this to be more accurate.  I'm always nervous about "speaking for others"

You guys can't even SAY "you should kick them out" (and I get it, and I understand you don't necesarily mean that), so how am I supposed to DO it?

There are many steps to this.  Let's create a new thread to explore how you can start showing respect and expecting respect in return.

I don't know how many steps I can take before the only thing left to do is that, withdraw my support completelly. I don't know how long it will be before I reach my breaking point and I'll have to do it, even if I think it's completely wrong.

I don't know either.  I would rather not go down that road with you.  I would rather have you make choices and allow her to.  Being in a situation where you "have to" do things sucks.

Looks like I've run out of room.  You have a lot of reading and thinking to do.

FF

 

[JoeBPD81]

They told her they'd love to have her. Right away. Now she needs to do a week of training. After that there is a test. Those of the candidates with the highest scores, get in, and the higher the score the sooner you can pick the schedulle.

TODAY I got the phone of one doctor who has to approve my therapy, in order to have 20 sessions free of charge. I would have called, but it's closed on friday. The therapy is in a place I already went after my divorce, I don't like it or the therapist I had then. But hopefully is different, or she can help me better with this.

As I work here, for unemployment, she asked me for a "huge favour" that was to print a paper... .When I was looking for it she told me "I had forgotten that you can spy on people, that freaks me out, I'm completely paranoid! Stop spying on me! Stop spying on me!" So, I closed the chat for a while, and I was mad. She appologized right away. And some time later we were able to talk about her interview. And the conflict didn't escalate.

She's talking about the schedulle and transport to the work-place as if she planned to stay and go to work from our flat.

Yesterday, she told me: "as I am now in better terms with my ex... ." And I said "you are?", she said "yeah. He told me he might come to visit them when the weather is nicer". That would be a first. The ass owes the kids about $7000 in child support, which would take us out of many holes. And maybe as much in "extra expenses" (he's supposed to pay half of medical bills, school activities and such). He makes at least $6000 a month from a pension, and doesn't have to pay any rent (he kept the family house, paid in full).

HQ

When things are calm, she tells me I'm a great father, and that my approach is better than hers. She tells me she whishes she could give the custody to me, and kill herself. Yeah, when she is totally calm, she still wants to die as the best outcome. Very seldomly she has something to live for. She would be happy living alone in the forest, with animals and no people at all. But she gave that dream away when she had kids.

We talk in a civiliced way, but she is hughly ashamed of how she has treated me when she wasn't civiliced. So she gets very sad, and then it is easy to trigger her again.

I'm guilty of not wanting to talk much. When there is no fire to put out, I'm so exausted that I just want to enjoy the little peace I have.

FF

I need a lot of time to answer your post, Wow! I get it and there are some things I can build on.

[Harley Quinn]

Can you share some about the strategies that you used to attempt to get your pwBPD to get help, before putting yourself first?   Did you try to engage him about lesser issues, and did that work.

Hi FF,

Yes small steps are the ones that add up.  My ex was already in treatment when I met him.  He was on the extreme end of the spectrum, very low functioning.  Obviously that wasn't apparent at the time.  However I had been supporting him in organising appointments etc. and I stepped back and encouraged him to do these things for himself.  He used coping skills provided by his P and I attended appointments so that I had an understanding of what strategies would work for both of us.  Observing my limits was my main priority.  I had a firm boundary around behaviour in front of my son, so if my ex felt himself dysregulating when my son was present, he would remove himself from the home and go off to do his coping strategies.     

He was actively suicidal and this was a regular source of unrest (and anxiety for me) in the r/s.  He talked about this when he was calm too.  Joe, my actions were to build a support network for myself and have crisis plans from his P, emergency contacts at the ready for suicide attempts and a safety plan which I produced with a domestic abuse advocate whom I found for myself when the violence began. 

The key steps I took were centred around protecting myself emotionally and physically by detaching somewhat from my 'doing' role, and maintaining relationships outside of the home, with friends and professionals.  I saw a counsellor, my DV advocate and was in regular contact with my GP. 

I'm so glad that you are planning to get therapy.  That safe space to work through your emotions and come up with steps is going to do you a world of good.  It's quite possible that you could have a different T or that as you said, the person you saw previously might be more experienced in supporting you with this present need.  Good for you for pursuing this!     

That's great news about the job!  How do you feel about this?   

I'm guilty of not wanting to talk much. When there is no fire to put out, I'm so exausted that I just want to enjoy the little peace I have.

 

I hear you.  I've been there too and I can't say I blame you for that.  However, we all know this is the only time that things can move forwards in a healthy way.  When emotions are high, no improvement is going to come out of addressing issues.  What ways of approaching difficult topics have worked for you in the past?  How could you speak to her to create a joint plan for how you will work together on improving things at home without it being a finger pointing exercise?  Think bite sized chunks, rather than a big overhaul conversation.  What do you think needs to be talked about as a priority towards more harmony at home for all of you?

Love and light x 

[formflier]

It sounds like you did not engage on the spying thing.  Such as denying you can spy or talking bout it at all.

Right now, on those types of things, best to not engage.  Silence is golden.


I'm trying to have a "long term conversation" with you, since you are in a multi-year thing.

The job interview and training is a short term thing.

This should be right up your alley.  Give her the support she "requests" to set her up for a good training.

For now... ignore the conversations about ex's, kids, vacations, aliens and pink elephants.  When I say ingore, I'm not saying ignore her.  

"blah blah blah, my ex and I are on good terms... .blah blah blah"  Make sure your response is not shocking or judgmental

Be direct.  "I see... .would you like to talk more about this.  I've got time in about an hour."  No suggestions, hand it all back to her... for later.  When later comes... let her bring it up.  You be present.

As far as the next week (or whenever until the job thing is sorted out).

Be proactive:  "Hey... I'm proud of you for earning this opportunity.  How can I best support you as you prepare for the exam (or whatever it's call)?"   No suggestions... .no solving.  Give her a direct question.

If she flips it back on you... "what do you think... ?"

"Well... I'll have to give it some thought.  You know yourself best.  I'll continue on with our normal routine unless I hear otherwise.  I'm confident you can figure this out."

Thoughts?

FF  

[Red5]

Quote from: JoeBPD81 on Today at 05:57:53 AM

I don't know how many steps I can take before the only thing left to do is that, withdraw my support completelly. I don't know how long it will be before I reach my breaking point and I'll have to do it, even if I think it's completely wrong.


Good morning Joe!

I am very sorry that you are going through all of this; your experiences are similar in many respects to mine.

You wrote a while back about "sink or swim"... .and that triggered a few thoughts in my dusty empty head ().

First one, when myself, and my now second wife were going through a little bit of pre-marriage counseling, well more like an interview with the head Baptist preacher, he asked me a question which I have never forgotten, but first a few facts up front... .we both have grown and on their own children from both our previous marriages, but the caveat for me is that my oldest is a special needs person, he is over thirty now, and is developmentally about age seven or eight, (autism)... .so this pastor sits there and asks me this question, ."So... .you and your wife are in a life boat with your child, and then the life boat is swamped, and starts to sink, who do you save, as you can only save one, your wife or your child"... .oh boy & yeah    ... .a trick question, I of course said my child... .which did not go over so well, and to this day, all these years later, has been laminated, and preserved, and thrown into my face when the need arises... .

Next thought, I remember going through survival swimmer training in the military... .and we were tasked with saving a drowning person in the "deep end"... .and of course you know how this goes, as soon as you get close, the drownee grabs onto you the savee... .and will drown you trying to get their head above the water... .you got to stay cool, calm, and collected, or otherwise you are both done for, and you both will sink down into davy jones locker out of breath, and soon to out of life as well... .kind of like living  (caretaking) with a pw/BPD... .even after all your efforts to "save"... .they will still try to drown you,

Sending good karma your way, hope you are alright, keep us all posted,

Red5

[formflier]

I love the lifeguard analogy.    

Since I know Red5 is former military... .I'll spin this into a bit of a tale.  There I was a young Ensign (O-1) in the Navy.  Perhaps I'll let Red5 and others describe how useful they are... . 

There was a time when we were "stashed" waiting on training for flying to start, and that pretty much consisted of answering phones, filing papers and staying out of peoples way.  That didn't sit very well with me.  Since I was a lifeguard and had all my quals I took a walk down to base MWR (Morale Welfare and Rec).  

I showed them my quals, told them I wanted to work, word quickly spread (good pool guys are always needed) and for a couple of months I spent my days as a lifeguard.  Put on Navy diver trunks, suntan lotion, cool shades and did my thing.  (where is this story going?)

Anyway... it was really fun.  I also got to work with pulling lots of people out, when I got pulled into recruit training safety.  Basically new recruits get tossed into the pool to evaluate how they can swim.  Many would tell us they could swim... and their skills showed otherwise...  

So... I've pulled out a fair share.  Most with shepherds hook.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002KQF5M/ref=asc_df_B0002KQF5M5373167/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B0002KQF5M&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167126215582&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2019031652477880344&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1017161&hvtargid=pla-307823549959


Anyway... .sometimes you do have to go in and get them in person.  Very dangerous, best left to professionals.  For your own safety, you have to maintain control, which means you try to grab them from behind (so their hands have a hard time getting to you).

Here is the thing... .the rescuer is the one that must stay thinking clearly.  You know the drowning person IS NOT.  For them it is about THEIR SURVIVAL.  The rescuer makes it about their own survival, all the better if they can save the drowning person.

So, if things go south, which they sometimes do and the flailing person grabs you, the "way forward" is to grab them and go down.  yep... .both go under.

What happens is the drowning person thinks you are crazy and lets you go... you get away.  Wash rinse repeat.

What is the message that applies here to BPD land (I swear I'm getting there).  

I'm the rescuer, we play together by my rules or I will let you play alone by yours.  I'm not going to let you drown me.

JoeBPD81 and others,

Can you see how that analogy plays here?  Joe's house, Joe's resources and Joe's rules.   Joe should never feel bad or apologize for running his life in a healthy way.  If that means someone else decides they can swim by themselves... and if that person ends up drowning rather than accept his help... .

well... .that would be sad, but I don't see how any reasonable person says Joe "did this" or "caused this".  It's the sad result of a person that made bad decisions.

Are we connecting the dots?

FF JADE:  I wasn't the one that brought up the "pool analogy" ... .in fact... .never thought of it before.  I think it (in a frank way) illustrates the dynamics in many BPDish/rescuer relationships.

Thoughts?

FF