Co-parenting struggles

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I think I have finally accepted that I just need to post on this board, because I'm really not sure I see my relationship with uBPDw getting better.  I'm struggling this weekend due to an article shared by our couples therapist on Friday... .

I brought up specific coparenting concerns in that session, including:

• Argument with uBPDw on Sunday a week ago, described in a prior post (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321345.0)
• D9's reluctance to engage at all with uBPDw (even basic conversation)
• Near-argument on Thursday when D9 specifically said she didn't want to talk to uBPDw, uBPDw stood over D9 (who was sitting at the table) telling her how much it hurt her feelings for D9 not wanting to talk to her.  I gently said uBPDw's name to try and break the moment, because I felt like she was making D9 responsible for her feelings and that's not healthy or fair

Given what I consider to be uBPDw's overly-critical nature, and my concerns about her nearly constant corrections of behavior (difficulty choosing her battles), her bond with D9 is significantly damaged.  I really wanted an opportunity to discuss this with our couples T, especially since we are going to get D9 started back in therapy herself. 

The couples therapist suggested that uBPDw try "disengaging" from parenting for a few months while D9 works with her therapist (and we hopefully eventually have some family sessions).  She indicated maybe I should handle the teaching moments and discipline while uBPDw works on her bond with the kids (especially D9).  She mentioned an essay that she felt would help describe the disengaging concept, and shared it with us after providing the disclaimer that the essay was written for a step parent situation.  She acknowledged that this is not our dynamic, and said she was sure uBPDw could read past that part to glean the intended info about disengaging.

Sounded reasonable enough... .until uBPDw scanned and emailed me the essay, saying "I have already read and re-read this essay several times.  I found it to be much closer to our family dynamic than I could have appreciated when first asked this morning to 'disengage from parenting [D9].'" Here is a link to the online version for anyone who is curious:

www.fillingyourniche.com/the-disengaging-essay/

Having read the essay, I am really concerned about how much she identifies with it.  It tells her exactly what she wants to hear--that I'm the problem. Forget the fact that she is not a step parent (she was there with me from conception all the way to today). Forget the fact that our problems right now are centered around her parenting choices that I cannot and will not support because I feel they are doing emotional damage to our children.  Now she has been provided an rticle to latch on to that vindicates her, takes responsibility off of her for her own choices, and makes me the bad guy for not supporting those choices.

The even more difficult part of this is that I have been out of town since Friday evening, so we haven't actually discussed any of this.  Plus, she has had to be on point with the kids, with very limited options for "disengaging" anyway.  And now I'm headed home, unsure of what I'm going to walk into, and really doubtful that we will be able to have a rational discussion about it.

Not sure what I'm looking for other than confirmation that I'm not crazy about this article's potential opposite effect on any progress with someone who exhibits BPD traits.  Also could use some guidance on how best to address my concern about this with the couples therapist.  She is aware and has acknowledged observing some of these traits in uBPDw, along with awareness of her other issues with anxiety, depression, and ADHD.

[mama-wolf]

I think I have finally accepted that I just need to post on this board, because I'm really not sure I see my relationship with uBPDw getting better.  I'm struggling this weekend due to an article shared by our couples therapist on Friday... .

I brought up specific coparenting concerns in that session, including:

• Argument with uBPDw on Sunday a week ago, described in a prior post (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321345.0)
• D9's reluctance to engage at all with uBPDw (even basic conversation)
• Near-argument on Thursday when D9 specifically said she didn't want to talk to uBPDw, uBPDw stood over D9 (who was sitting at the table) telling her how much it hurt her feelings for D9 not wanting to talk to her.  I gently said uBPDw's name to try and break the moment, because I felt like she was making D9 responsible for her feelings and that's not healthy or fair

Given what I consider to be uBPDw's overly-critical nature, and my concerns about her nearly constant corrections of behavior (difficulty choosing her battles), her bond with D9 is significantly damaged.  I really wanted an opportunity to discuss this with our couples T, especially since we are going to get D9 started back in therapy herself. 

The couples therapist suggested that uBPDw try "disengaging" from parenting for a few months while D9 works with her therapist (and we hopefully eventually have some family sessions).  She indicated maybe I should handle the teaching moments and discipline while uBPDw works on her bond with the kids (especially D9).  She mentioned an essay that she felt would help describe the disengaging concept, and shared it with us after providing the disclaimer that the essay was written for a step parent situation.  She acknowledged that this is not our dynamic, and said she was sure uBPDw could read past that part to glean the intended info about disengaging.

Sounded reasonable enough... .until uBPDw scanned and emailed me the essay, saying "I have already read and re-read this essay several times.  I found it to be much closer to our family dynamic than I could have appreciated when first asked this morning to 'disengage from parenting [D9].'" Here is a link to the online version for anyone who is curious:

www.fillingyourniche.com/the-disengaging-essay/

Having read the essay, I am really concerned about how much she identifies with it.  It tells her exactly what she wants to hear--that I'm the problem. Forget the fact that she is not a step parent (she was there with me from conception all the way to today). Forget the fact that our problems right now are centered around her parenting choices that I cannot and will not support because I feel they are doing emotional damage to our children.  Now she has been provided an rticle to latch on to that vindicates her, takes responsibility off of her for her own choices, and makes me the bad guy for not supporting those choices.

The even more difficult part of this is that I have been out of town since Friday evening, so we haven't actually discussed any of this.  Plus, she has had to be on point with the kids, with very limited options for "disengaging" anyway.  And now I'm headed home, unsure of what I'm going to walk into, and really doubtful that we will be able to have a rational discussion about it.

Not sure what I'm looking for other than confirmation that I'm not crazy about this article's potential opposite effect on any progress with someone who exhibits BPD traits.  Also could use some guidance on how best to address my concern about this with the couples therapist.  She is aware and has acknowledged observing some of these traits in uBPDw, along with awareness of her other issues with anxiety, depression, and ADHD.

[BeagleGirl]

Mama-wolf,
    I can imagine how frightening it can be to feel like uBPDw has been handed a barrel of ammunition that can be used against you.  It can also be disturbing to feel like the person who is supposed to be helping you, your couple's therapist, is the one handing over that ammunition.
    I don't think you're crazy to have concerns, but I also wonder if there might be a way to avoid the potential downsides and harness the potential positives using the tools that are described on this site.
    I can see potential for some validation (while not validating the invalid) and SET.  I can also see some opportunity for you to step beyond your fear and take an honest look at your role in the parenting dynamic and determine whether there are adjustments that you could/should make.  I know from a LOT of experience that focusing on the behaviors of my pwBPD and living in the frustration of not being able to change them often clouded my understanding of my own behaviors and my ability to control my own behaviors in a way that could yield positive results.
     So... .Validation.  Take another read through the essay and purposefully ignore the sections that trigger defensiveness in you - the parts that make it sound like this is all your fault.  Spend a little extra time thinking about the parts where the step-parent (and by extension your uBPDw) is saying how they FEEL.  Now look for ways that you can validate those feelings.  If I understand the situation you're describing, D9 is refusing to engage in basic conversation with uBPDw.  Letting go of whether you feel D9 is justified in this behavior, think about how you would feel if being treated in this way by D9.  Are there feelings that you can validate in uBPDw?
    SET.  If you've identified things you can validate, you are well positioned to try some SET.  This could (if you choose) take the form of supporting her in some degree of disengagement.  You can offer support in helping her repair the relationship with D9, empathize with the pain this estrangement is causing her, and offer some truth about the need to change the parenting dynamic.
    Facing your own truth.  It's true that the only person we can change is ourselves.  I think it's also true that we tend to focus on how much better our lives would be if only those around us would change.  It's possible that your therapist is gently extending to you an opportunity to see how your role (or perceived role) in the home is having an negative impact.  I definitely don't want you to take on the blame for the situation, but I think that sometimes the behaviors that we develop when trying to compensate for a disordered person can be just as unhealthy and damaging as the ones our pwBPD is displaying.  Confronting our own patterns/behaviors is hard but infinitely more satisfying than focusing on those of our pwBPD because we can actually do something about them.

A few questions:
Do you think that it could be a positive for uBPDw to take a step back from disciplining (controlling) the kids?

Do you think that you and uBPDw could come to an agreement on the issues she feels are not being addressed in how your children are parented?

Do you think that you could take the lead on making sure those issues are addressed for a defined period of time?

Do you think that uBPDw could be coached to consistently step back and let you take the lead (by you and your therapist)?

Do you think that D9 has a way of feeling safe in your home and withdrawing in an acceptable manner from uBPDh's undue/destructive criticism?

Do you think that any of D9's coping mechanisms are unhealthy and need to be addressed by you as well as a therapist?

    As far as addressing this with your couple's therapist, I think you should.  I also think it may be a topic that you may want to see if your therapist is willing to discuss with you privately before your joint session.
 I think many of us on these boards is familiar with the dynamic where our pwBPD only hears the things the therapist says that place the blame on us and seem to miss their role in all the problems.  Having this kind of discussion with your uBPDw in the room may make it a bit harder for you to hear what your therapist is saying without worrying that uBPDw is hearing and amplifying it in a way that will come back to bite you.  I think it's valid to express that you felt defensive when you read the essay and that you felt that, when applied to your situation, it implied that the root of the problem in your family dynamic was you being overly permissive (or something like that).  You can ask your therapist to help you avoid a situation where uBPDw focuses on blame rather than constructive action.  Do you think that would be an option for you?
BG

[Panda39]

What has occurred to me is the Karpman Drama Triangle.  Yes you want to protect your daughter and yes if there is abuse verbal/emotional/physical you as an adult/parent want to step in.  However, can you see that you are all going around the Triangle?  I think your Therapist is asking you to step off the Triangle and let your daughter's therapist help her learn to negotiate your wife herself.  Also by getting off the triangle your wife will learn from your daughter the consequences of her actions.  I know both of these things are probably uncomfortable for you, they would be for me.

More on the Karpman Triangle... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

I say give what your Therapist's idea a try... .change up the dynamic, I know this is outside your comfort zone, and you fear your wife will feel validated by the article... .I say look past that and keep your eye on the goal... .a better relationship all the way around.

Panda39

[mama-wolf]

Thank you BeagleGirl and Panda39 for the replies... .

BeagleGirl, yes I did feel my trust in this therapist shaken a bit once I read the essay.  I can see and intellectually understand her observations that our family exhibits some traits of a blended family... .S5 is her bio child, while D9 is my bio child, even though we have been married for 11 years.  But when put in the context of that essay, I really felt like I was the one being invalidated.  You had a lot of great points in your reply, and I'm going to try to take them in order... .

Letting go of whether you feel D9 is justified in this behavior, think about how you would feel if being treated in this way by D9.  Are there feelings that you can validate in uBPDw?

I do believe I can validate in this area.  It's just a struggle for me because I feel like uBPDw's actions and attitudes are the root cause of this behavior from D9.  I know I have to get away from blame and focus on constructive ways to improve the situation.  It's just hard to not feel like I am validating the invalid when I ignore the source.  Like I'm helping gloss over her portion of accountability for where we are today.  I am also so emotionally burnt out, it's really hard to draw on any remaining empathy I may have... .

I definitely don't want you to take on the blame for the situation, but I think that sometimes the behaviors that we develop when trying to compensate for a disordered person can be just as unhealthy and damaging as the ones our pwBPD is displaying.  Confronting our own patterns/behaviors is hard but infinitely more satisfying than focusing on those of our pwBPD because we can actually do something about them.

I have been working on this, because I do know I have a role here and I try to be aware of any tendency to overcompensate for uBPDw's behavior.  I have been working steadily on my own boundaries and accepting that I cannot change uBPDw's mind, change her choices, change her in general.  I take responsibility for my contributions, and really do want to help make things better all around.

SET.  If you've identified things you can validate, you are well positioned to try some SET.  This could (if you choose) take the form of supporting her in some degree of disengagement.  You can offer support in helping her repair the relationship with D9, empathize with the pain this estrangement is causing her, and offer some truth about the need to change the parenting dynamic.

I tried to prepare myself for this when we finally had a chance to discuss it yesterday upon my return from out of town.  I failed pretty miserably.  The main issue is that once the topic did come up, I was thrown a curve ball in the form of us understanding different things from the couples therapist.  I understood the recommendation to be applied across parenting of both our children, since they both have exhibited escalating behavior towards her.  She understood it only to be intended for D9, particularly given the extent of the escalation on her end.

I wasn't trying to press the point.  She brought it up, and she asked me what my understanding was. When I told her, she blew up completely.  The anger was some of the strongest I have felt from her--ever.  That I would dare suggest such a thing had her looking at me like she wanted me to die.

I wasn't trying to convince her of what I understood.  I wasn't trying to justify it.  I suggested we just reach out to the therapist for clarification.  She had asked what I heard and what I understood from the conversation, and I gave her my answer.  She asked whether I agreed with it, and I told her the truth.  I was trying to offer support for all the things you mentioned above.  I clearly flopped on the empathy.  And truth just exploded the whole encounter.

She ended up leaving the house to get away for a while and calm down, which I think was ultimately for the best.  Things were calmer after she returned, and we fell back into our normal pattern now of not really discussing deep topics--just existing in the same space for the moment.

A few questions:
Do you think that it could be a positive for uBPDw to take a step back from disciplining (controlling) the kids?

Absolutely, and I support this.  I did reach out to the therapist though, who confirmed that her recommendation was just in regards to D9.  So I think that complicates things--especially when it comes to situations where both kids are involved.  It completely opens the door for uBPDw to step all over me simply because she's interacting with S5 at the same time.

Do you think that you and uBPDw could come to an agreement on the issues she feels are not being addressed in how your children are parented?

This is much harder.  I support presenting a united front, but where those battle lines need to be drawn is the real source of conflict.  She rides D9 almost constantly, and is pretty strict with S5 as well.  She is critical in general, and when it comes to D9's tone of voice, choice of words, table manners, lack of immediate and blind obedience to any instruction, etc. then it becomes a conflict.  If I don't back her up 100% on this approach, I'm seen as criticizing her parenting ability and attacking her own upbringing (which is it's own can of worms given how harsh her mom always was on her).

Do you think that you could take the lead on making sure those issues are addressed for a defined period of time?

I can absolutely take the lead, but I pick my battles a bit differently from uBPDw.  Our couples therapist has indicated agreement with this... .choosing our battles and letting D9 experience some consequences from poor choices.  uBPDw wants the perfection up front, without allowing for a learning process that builds healthy boundaries.  So, while I take the lead, I know it will grate on her constantly that I'm not parenting "correctly".

Do you think that uBPDw could be coached to consistently step back and let you take the lead (by you and your therapist)?

She resented the notion of disengagement when first suggested in session on Friday.  She seemed to accept it more after reading the essay, and I think is on board now.  We'll have to see how it shapes up as we move forward now that we have this additional clarification on the approach.

Do you think that D9 has a way of feeling safe in your home and withdrawing in an acceptable manner from uBPDh's undue/destructive criticism?  Do you think that any of D9's coping mechanisms are unhealthy and need to be addressed by you as well as a therapist?

Usually, D9 gets in trouble with uBPDw because uBPDw responds to her with sarcasm, extreme characterizations of her actions, and impatient expectations for a respectful response.  This tends to upset her, and is what has significantly contributed to her lack of desire to interact with uBPDw at all.  We have always stressed to D9 that she can go to her room if/when she is upset so that she can have some time to calm down and reset.  She doesn't like to do this because I think she feels like she's being sent away, but frequently has followed through with it and benefit from the opportunity.  D9 is starting back with her own therapist this week, who will spend a few sessions rebuilding rapport (there has been a gap in care of several months), which will then be followed by some family sessions to work with uBPDw (and me).

As far as addressing this with your couple's therapist, I think you should.  I also think it may be a topic that you may want to see if your therapist is willing to discuss with you privately before your joint session.

Thank you for this... .I really do feel the need to reach out to her.  I have a session with my own T tomorrow and will talk through it with her a bit, too.  I think the risk is that our couples therapist is not so sure uBPDw has BPD.  So even if there are acknowledged traits, there may not be buy-in for concerns about how uBPDw receives and responds to things.

Panda39, thank you for the reference to the Karpman Triangle.  I will read up on this more, because I think it's definitely at play in various situations.

mw

[formflier]

Mama-wolf,

I like parenting discussions because... .I like parenting.  8 kids.  Yeah... all mine.

One thing that has shocked me about my attitude now, versus what I would have thought or advised when I had one or two kids is that there are very very few right or wrong answers in parenting.  Most parenting is about "breaking a dynamic" that isn't working and letting a child discover (on their own as much as possible) a better way forward.  

Early on I would have said it was my job to "teach" them how to mature.  Now... I would say it's more "removing barriers" to their continued growth.

Further complicated by what is a barrier for one child doesn't slow another child down, yet... .we "parented" all our children the same.

Power struggles between people rarely go well.  Power struggles between parents and children go even less well.  Hint... the parents "win"... .the kids get that, it ticks them off sometimes and "tossing it in their face" rarely helps.

   

OK... .please don't read too much into the article and what the T means.  Honestly... .what I "see" is the T trying to get someone to disengage.  No more... .no less.

pwBPD seem especially susceptible to being "blown off" or "disrespected".  What I have found that works for the old "I'm not going to talk to you... ."  from a kid (a well worn path... .all the kids must have same playbook).

Is for the other parent to step in and "defend" the blown off parent.  Note:  Two people can't defend at same time, so this also has benefit of the pwBPD "backing off".  

Then deal with the disrespectful child... .then deal with child's feelings and ability to be empathetic to others.  If there is true distress, perhaps deal with that first.  That is rare... IMO.

The teaching point is "you can feel however you want to feel... .we are polite to others."  Note:  Good for pwBPD to hear this too.

My big picture point:  I"m less interested in how you get the disengagement to happen, than you get it to happen.  Be pragmatic.  Instead of admitting "fault"... .express regret that you haven't "defended" your partner better... .and "it would mean a lot to me if you would step back and let me do this... "

Once you back away from the direct confrontation... .you will likely employ nuance better.  Again... be pragmatic here.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Mama-wolf,
    It sounds like you are making progress, even if it's not as smooth as you'd like. 
    One area that I would want to get a bit more clarity (and maybe a second opinion) on would be treating D9 differently.  As formflier says, every kid responds differently, but I also think that a drastically different approach to parenting one child can cause problems.  This can be especially true if, as you seem to observe, uBPDw's style with both children is potentially harmful.  I think it's another valid topic to discuss with your couple's therapist ("I'm concerned about how D9 and S5 will respond to being treated differently by uBPDw.  Can you give me more clarity on how that would look?) and something I would raise with D9's therapist for their opinion.
    It sounds like you have already done a lot of work to identify the areas where you can improve and are actively working on them.  If only that was enough to fix everything.
    It's interesting that you mention your couple's therapist not seeming to "buy-in" on the distorted way uBPDw hears and responds to things because there's not a full belief that BPD is in play here.  Can you give some examples of the distortions that your couple's therapist doesn't seem to acknowledge?
BG

[mama-wolf]

Thanks, FF... .I appreciate the perspective given your experience with eight kids.

What I have found that works for the old "I'm not going to talk to you... ."  from a kid (a well worn path... .all the kids must have same playbook).
Is for the other parent to step in and "defend" the blown off parent.  Note:  Two people can't defend at same time, so this also has benefit of the pwBPD "backing off". 

Yes, I think if uBPDw will actually disengage, I will have more room to address D9's reluctance to interact and can address disrespect.  It's when uBPDw can't keep from interjecting that the situation immediately escalates due to D9's reactions, and I lose any progress I might have been making. 

One area that I would want to get a bit more clarity (and maybe a second opinion) on would be treating D9 differently.

BG, this is a major concern of mine for the exact reason you indicated.  I understand and agree with FF that kids have different needs and respond differently, but they also need some level of consistency.  I will definitely ask for better clarity on how the couples T envisions this approach working... .and I will bring it up to D9's therapist as well.  At the very least, she needs to be aware of the disengagement approach being in play.

With regards to the couples T not buying in on influence of BPD in our relationship, I guess my biggest indicator of that was the essay itself.  I'm not a clinical expert or professional therapist, but I struggle to understand why an article targeted in such a way would be recommended to someone who has even displayed BPD traits, regardless of diagnosis.  But I am sure I'm biased since it has left me feeling like I'm on shaky footing, so that's why I need more objective "eyes" on the situation.

She does seem to be aware of uBPDw's tendency to turn things around on me whenever I bring up a complaint (defensiveness on uBPDw's part), and to turn my complaints into attacks (which they're not).  I don't think the couples T has yet had enough opportunity to observe or hear about other things, such as uBPDw's tendency to change facts based on what makes her feel better or what she prefers.  There is a whole situation around an agreement to avoid alcohol for 30 days that was changed in her mind to "reduce" alcohol, and then changed again to "it was just a trial to see if it worked, and it just wasn't working."

I did bring up in session uBPDw's difficulty sticking to the agreement to stay out of parenting interactions if I'm handling a situation (prior to disengagement recommendation).  When D9 started acting up a couple days after that agreement, she reinterpreted the agreement to "allow" her to interject while I was addressing it because she was in the room and was also "affected" by D9's poor attitude.  Having brought up in session the subsequent argument that sparked between us, that was what prompted the recommendation to disengage... .but I'm not very clear on whether the couples T sees the BPD elements that I feel like I am viscerally experiencing every day.

mw

[formflier]

Can you do some "word for word" of last time your kid and pwBPD escalated something.  What would/did you do?


Also... back to the article.  It's a parenting article, not targeted for or against a pwBPD.  I think the point of the article (if I remember right) was a kid sees an adult as an outsider or "illegitimate".

Personally... .I think this is a place where the BPD angle needs to be ignored.  Focus on the interaction with the kid.

If it gets to the point where your pwBPD refuses to disengage... .focus on that, not the reasons behind that.

As far as talking to the Ts.  I would ask specifically if there is any reason whatsoever to not address a child ignoring/disrespecting someone else (and there may be).

If that is the case, you and your pwBPD need to hear and understand the reasoning and a "road map" to get from here... .to a child that doesn't blow off authority figures.   (basically... everyone get on same page)

Last thought for now:  Perhaps it may go better for you to assume you are dealing with two kids instead of one.  Am I correct in perceiving some shock that another adult would act this way?

I'll hold off until I get a flavor of the "word for word" for any more suggestions.

FF

[mama-wolf]

FF, word for word is difficult for me to convey accurately.  My memory isn't great for that sort of thing--especially as aggravated and exhausted as I have gotten lately--but I have started journaling to help me keep things straight.  I will try to give some more specific examples... .

There was a situation described in my prior thread where as I was talking to D9 about needing to pay me back for some candy she wanted, and I explained she also needed to pay back sales tax.  While she was complaining about this and I was trying (semi-successfully) to keep my calm at her indignation and complaints of unfairness, uBPDw tosses in a "don't be ridiculous, of course you have to pay sales tax."  To which D9 got very angry and was no longer in a state to listen to either one of us, and uBPDw then decides to take over with telling her she needs to stop responding that way and being disrespectful--taking the encounter out of my hands.

There have been other instances where I have been talking to D9, has said something to me, and uBPDw answers before I have a chance to.  This happens with S5 too.  D9 in particular gets upset and/or frustrated (increasingly so over the past year), and has recently responded with a "but I wasn't talking to you" (surprisingly not yelling... .just complaining that she was talking to me and not uBPDw).

uBPDw will also interject while I'm handling something with D9 if she feels D9 is not responding quickly enough.  She will jump in with "your mom asked you a question" or "answer her."  Even from the other room where she is completely removed from the situation.  Even though I'm the one standing right there with D9, I'm the one choosing to wait patiently for D9 to articulate her feelings or frustrations or even attempt at a counterargument (as long as it's offered respectfully and not just backtalk).  Or she will cut D9 off when I have invited D9's opinion/response, insisting that D9 just do what she's told right now.

In these instances, I am constantly trying to balance D9's (and sometimes S5's) immediate frustration/anger, speak up for myself to remind uBPDw that I'm handling the situation, and avpid undermining uBPDw in front of the kids--even though that's exactly what I feel like she has done to me.

I feel like a lot of the above is the basis for our couples T recommending that uBPDw disengage from parenting D9 for a while.  uBPDw seems on board, but she's struggling with it.  She sounds resentful that she needs to do this, and even made comments this morning about how much the situation frustrates her (as if she expects it to be better already).  I'm not sure how well she will be able to hold out, since it is going to take time for things to get better... .

Does that help?

mw

[formflier]

ugg... double ugg.  That really sucks. 

OK... word for word not needed, I have a picture of this.  It's going to take some trial and error to get this turned in the right direction.

Let me ask another follow up question.  What do YOU do when she interjects or try to hurry things along.  I have a picture of what the kids do (completely understandable)... .but I didn't get a picture of what you do.

Then what she does... then you... .(then at some point it ends).

Another way of asking how do these moments resolve?


Until I get that info, I stay away from anything specific.

Big picture:

How often do you proactively approach her about parenting goals for the day... week... whatever?  I would try to be more consistent about doing this.

If you need to "correct" or "teach" a child, you may want to consider doing so in private.  This would likely involve a locked door and a "boundary" where you are unapologetically having a private discussion with your child.  Note, consider how this would go, think through logistics.  This would likely be used if other methods to get your pwBPD to butt out don't work.

Have you directly said (in the moment or otherwise) to your pwBPD, what you would prefer to have happen.  Such as "please wait until the conversation between (use names) is complete before interjecting"

you may need to treat this more like a child that is interrupting than an adult... very matter of factly " Please raise your hand if you have something to add, let's not teach each other it's OK to interrupt".

Of course... .wouldn't it be great if she would listen to T and step back.

Thoughts so far?

FF

[mama-wolf]

I'm working on my own reactions to when she steps in.  They have ranged from me immediately asking that she let me finish, to me letting her take over and then I bring it up after the fact and ask that she not do it.  Both have resulted in arguments... .the former for undermining her when she stepped in, and the latter for suggesting that she not have the right to parent the kids too.

I like the idea of correcting in private, and will probably try to do that more consciously.  A proactive approach to parenting also sounds good, and I will bring this up with D9's therapist.

I will also be talking to the couples therapist about how best to move forward with the whole disengaging approach--and how to address it if/when uBPDw inevitably has to cut in.  She's doing ok so far this week, but I can tell it's wearing on her.

mw

[formflier]

  They have ranged from me immediately asking that she let me finish, to me letting her take over and then I bring it up after the fact and ask that she not do it.  

Defend your boundaries... .and your conversations... .and your parenting.  IN the moment is "usually" better.

But... .interrupting the interrupter is like putting gas on the fire.

Consider this.

You talk

She interrupts.

You wait patiently.

Do NOT acknowledge or discuss her points at all... .zip zero nadda.

She finishs

"So... I need to get back to my parenting discussion"... .and get back to it.

If she interrupts again, send daughter to her room (this may need to be practiced) to shut the door and wait for you.  She doesn't need to see this example any further.

Then talk to you pwBPD.

"Babe... .I need to take a minute and compose myself.  I'm getting a glass of water, would you like one too?"

get waters

"I need you to respect my conversations and take turns in conversations without interrupting or I will do my parenting in private.  Which would you prefer?"

You talk... if she argues... don't argue back.  

Basically... you kinda act the opposite.  She is used to raising her voice and crazy making.  I guarantee she will beat you at it... .every time  So... .don't go there.

Then... .parent in private if she doesn't get on board.

If she continues to make a scene... .perhaps you get to the point where you can't live with each other.  I doubt it, but if you give into her threats... .(about whatever)... .or your fears that she will do (whatever)... .this is unlikely to get fixed.

This is basic human dignity and respect.  You don't interrupt.  Mental illness doesn't get you a pass.

It's one thing if it's a once a week deal... or a bad day deal.  Cover it with love in those cases, but... .I'm not getting that vibe from you.

Let me ask a different way.  How often does she respect your conversations with your daughter?

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Hi mama-wolf,

I am just going to echo what BeagleGirl and formflier already said, and say from my own experience, the best results come from modifying my own behavior.

The scenario you described with the sales tax is something I experience frequently. I also used to try and wrestle control back, reassert my parenting "rights" in the moment. It never worked. It was just as formflier described - putting gas on the fire.

What really helped me was taking a step back and trying to find my own self confidence in my parenting abilities. I took a long weekend and spent almost every moment one on one with my daughter. My daughter is 4 so the challenges were age appropriate - dressing herself, picking up toys, brushing her teeth, getting ready for bed. I was able to defuse many of the situations that would normally explode when I try and co-parent.

I'm wondering if the constant interjections and criticisms aren't eating away at your own self confidence and self esteem in regards to parenting?

[mama-wolf]

FF, my wife rarely seems to respect my conversations with our children--especially D9--because she finds one or more of the following faults:

1.  I'm not correcting a behavior (look, tone of voice, action, actual words) quickly enough
2.  I'm not correcting a behavior (look, tone of voice, action, actual words) strongly enough
3.  I'm not correcting an opinion or way of thinking well enough (or at all)
4.  If all else is within her tolerable limits, and I seem to be bonding and getting along with D9 better than uBPDw wife does, then there seems to be some need to interject and "get" some of that energy/bond, too.  Like my bond with the kids is a threat to her own.

So, this is where I find myself gridlocked, because as I stand up for myself, she pushes harder and seems to feel more threatened.  It is definitely a topic I will be bringing forward with our couples therapist over our upcoming sessions.

What really helped me was taking a step back and trying to find my own self confidence in my parenting abilities. I took a long weekend and spent almost every moment one on one with my daughter. My daughter is 4 so the challenges were age appropriate - dressing herself, picking up toys, brushing her teeth, getting ready for bed. I was able to defuse many of the situations that would normally explode when I try and co-parent.

I'm wondering if the constant interjections and criticisms aren't eating away at your own self confidence and self esteem in regards to parenting?

DB, thank you so much for the insight!  Yes, focusing on myself (my actions) is the priority at this point.   I generally don't have any concerns about confidence in my own parenting, as I feel fully capable of handling the kids on my own.  As my frustration and anxiety and general stress have ratcheted up with uBPDw, I do find my temper being shorter with the kids, but I'm highly aware of this and work hard to address it.  Either way, the dynamic is far different than the co-parenting scenarios.

What you said about the constant interjections and criticisms eating away at my self confidence and self esteem strikes a real chord with me, though.  I believe it ties in with my other thread about feeling conflicted about therapy, because the interjections and criticisms are not isolated to parenting.  They have been rampant (and in some cases pretty darn subtle) for years.  But they were always explained away or justified by "that's how I grew up in my family--having to cut in to be heard" or "I know my mom is pretty critical, so I must get some of that from her" with no acknowledgement of the impact of the behavior or interest shown in changing it.  So if I tried to complain about it, it was always up to me to adapt and accept.

I know part of it is on me, because I haven't realized and am only just now figuring out how to identify what that impact has been... .much less express it to her.  I want her to have an awareness of impact that she just doesn't have on her own, so now it's also up to me to make it known.

mw

[formflier]

 
So... .here is the thing.

You need to be clear... .and you need to have clear action to back this up.

You bringing up a concern and her "pushing harder"... doesn't work.  You won't be doing that anymore.  Simply no.

There is no emergency... .let everyone you, her and D9... .compose themselves, think... .and have a normal conversation about whatever the topic is.

No yelling... .no crazy (again... we'll adjust your words... but you get the point)

I wouldn't "threaten" it at the start, but in your mind... .if you want to solve this... you need to be ready to "go to the mat" over this... .(no rush to the mat... .but you can't back down).

Your value... ."I won't be involved in that type of parenting"  (we need to work on the description)

But hurrying a kid... .badgering a kid... .interrupting... .will stop... one way or another.

Again... .we need to work on delivery. 

Thoughts?

FF

[mama-wolf]

Thanks, FF... .you make great points.  It will be interesting to see how the co-parenting discussion with our couples therapist goes this morning.  I want to make sure I am incorporating her guidance since uBPDw is participating in those sessions and there is a greater opportunity for accountability.  We also have the added dynamic of D9 starting therapy herself for her own difficulty at emotional regulation in general, and especially with uBPDw.

mw

[formflier]

Thanks, FF... .you make great points.  It will be interesting to see how the co-parenting discussion with our couples therapist goes this morning.  I want to make sure I am incorporating her guidance since uBPDw is participating in those sessions and there is a greater opportunity for accountability.  We also have the added dynamic of D9 starting therapy herself for her own difficulty at emotional regulation in general, and especially with uBPDw.

mw

I agree that all people need to be involved.

Do not let your message that "this isn't working for me... " get lost in letting everyone else go first.

I would also not demand anything is the "final solution" or "never again"... .

Perhaps the discussion should turn to "when is it appropriate to interrupt" or "how should I (mama-wolf) let my partner know she interrupted"

Do not get involved in any long discussion about it being ok to interrupt... especially when there is a sense of entitlement to do it.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm not hearing that she interrupts, you mention it and she apologizes or recognizes the oversight... .correct?

FF

[mama-wolf]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm not hearing that she interrupts, you mention it and she apologizes or recognizes the oversight... .correct?

Correct... .if I call attention to the interruption, 99% of the time I get one or more of:  rationalization, defensiveness, and resentment.

mw

[formflier]

Correct... .if I call attention to the interruption, 99% of the time I get one or more of:  rationalization, defensiveness, and resentment.

mw

So... "direct assaults" on pwBPD behavior can go badly.  Also don't appear to question their values, that sucks for anyone.

I would suggest you focus on "how can I be supportive of you bettering your conversation skills... "

See how that comes at the issue "from the side"... .vice... "stop the d#$% interrupting"  Now... there may be a time for frontal assault... .try things much gentler first.

Should there be defensiveness about "I don't need better conversation skills!"

This is where you let your honest... but targeted emotions run free.

Befuddlement and "shoulder shrugging" are honest... .this is perplexing behavior.  See how that is different than saying it is "wrong" (which it is)... .but this allows you to say "I have no words... "  "I can't wrap my head around this... ."

"help me understand (fill in blank)... "

Let them convict themselves... .

They want you to "buy" this land of oz they live in... don't say it's wrong, just say you don't get it and need to know more...

Careful... .it can come out like a smart ass sometimes "So... you are saying interrupting is a good thing?"  (bad... bad)

"I'm sure you are not saying interrupting is a good thing... .I'm having a hard time understanding your point... .can you try again?" (see how this makes the same point... yet gives them a pathway to redemption)

FF

[Red5]

mama-wolf,

Good morning, and hope all is well, I have been reading down through your post, and just wanted to let you know that you are certainly not alone in dealing with the blended family, step- mom; BPD phenomena.

I know that you have read some of the posts I have made here, in regards to my own situation with my uBPD/w & my S31sn.

My S31sn and my uBPD/w are a source of constant negative interactions, for some reason my (w) wants to always try to enforce her version of discipline onto him, and often times she seems to be quite the authoritarian towards him, as I have written before, my S31sn is about a five to seven year old developmentally, so be is basically a pre-kindergartner in behavior and mannerisms, but in the body of a grown man.

He is very sweet, and quite harmless, he likes trains, firetrucks, and classic cars… he is self-sufficient where self-care and hygiene are concerned, only requires some directions, and he is very easy to get along with, and he is capable of doing lite chores, and taking care of things like his own laundry, and cleaning his own room; again under lite direction, he even helps me in the yard, but since he is developmentally delayed, he is easily distracted, therein lies the problem… You see, to care for a person with special needs (sn), you have to have an easy going attitude, and a lot of patience… if you lose it, or become impatient with a pw/autism, then things are not going to go your way without some conflict, as in what we saw in a few films I will use as examples; the character Ray, in the movie “Rain-Man”, or another good example the character Arnie, in the film “What’s Eating Gilbert Grape”.

Special individuals need special care and a lot of considerations… imho, who are quite sweet and as well innocent of the world around them…

Also, he is obviously not able to process his own feelings sometimes, as when he is angry, or becomes aggravated, of course when u/BPDw tries to “enforce” onto him, sometimes he does become agitated, and angry, and then he may say something like “leave me alone”, or another thing he will do (act out) is to break one of his toys, which is usually met with punishment(s) from her, sometimes I think she goes looking for it, she will tell me, he is “autistic, he is not stupid”… then I will retort with something like, “how would you like it if I spoke to you in that matter, you would be angry too; would you not” (really)... then “how would you respond back to me, if I said that to you”… which usually dysregulates into a fight.

I am constantly trying to intervene, to “get there first”… up early, and to bed late;… always trying to keep S31sn off her radar… I am always trying to keep things going in the right direction so that she won’t become agitated towards S31sn.

Quite exhausting to be sure.

Of note, during the dating period (pre-show drop period), which went on for about five years, she showed nothing behaviorally that would make me have suspected that things were going to be this way once we became “blended”, of course we did not live together until we were married,

Just want to stop by mama-wolf, and say to you that I can completely concur with the problems/issues that you are experiencing with your blended family, so please know that you are not alone,

Both myself and my (w) have other grown adult children from our previous marriages, but they of course are gown & on their own now, and in their own relationships… only my S31sn is in the home with us (myself and u/bpw), and he will always live WITH ME… I love him more than words can ever say, he is my life long responsibility, and he makes me see the world though a very different type of lens than I would have if he was not the way he is… in a word, innocence, and two more (words)… compassion, and patience.

Insert the caretaker lines here _____,

Lots of good advice up there from all the other posters, and I do concur with much they have written, as in I am also always adjusting, and modify my own behaviors towards my (w) to try and keep the peace, and things quiet and on an even keel around the home… but I have to tell you, that most of our fights, which result in me being colored black, and silent treatment, and a well complete and total meltdowns/breakdowns are resultant of me “intercepting “ her in regards to my S31sn… I often think to myself, and I have also told her this, .what would it be like if the roles were reversed, and I; not you (u/BPDw) was the step parent of _your_ special needs person in the home ?

And as you wrote above, I also feel the same in my r/s... .“because I'm really not sure I see my relationship with uBPDw getting better.”,

I have become "accustomed" (weathered) to this eventuality, ie' fact.

So here I am, .things are calm at the moment, but we all know that in our r/s's with pw/BPD, things can change in a instant, so the tools must be at the ready, and contingency plans must be kept current and up to date (rehearsed in our minds)... .as they say, "it is what it is"... .

Keep us posted mama-wolf, take good care of yourself, and the kids, and hang in there; and know that you are certainly not alone in this blended family/BPD r/s phenomena.

Best regards, Red5

[mama-wolf]

Good morning, and hope all is well, I have been reading down through your post, and just wanted to let you know that you are certainly not alone in dealing with the blended family, step- mom; BPD phenomena.

Hi Red5--thanks for the note and encouragement!  I'm glad to hear things are at least calm at the moment for you, and hope they stay that way as much as possible.

I'm still decompressing from our couples therapy this morning, which was pretty rough.  Just... .wow.  Apologies in advance, because this is going to get very long, but I really need to get it out so that I can try not to obsess about it over the weekend.

uBPDw came to the session with the disengagement essay printed out and several places highlighted.  She had clearly thought thoroughly about points she wanted to make and anger towards me that she wanted to express.  She shared a particular passage that she identified with, which says:

"The only way to become part of the family and be granted authoritarian status is through an endorsement by the biological parent, our partner. Our partner needs to demonstrate that we’re an important part of their lives, worthy of their kids’ respect."

I expressed my concerns about the article and how much uBPDw identifies with the "step-parent" role.   You see... .one of the major issues is she's not really a step-parent.  While our T observed that we exhibit some qualities of a blended family, we really aren't.   The couples T only provided that essay to help uBPDw understand the disengagement approach better and said to look past the step-parent dynamic.

uBPDw and I were together years before we decided to have children together.  About two years after we got married, we decided it was time to have kids.  She was there for my conception, pregnancy, and delivery of D9, and I was there for her conception, pregnancy, an delivery of S5.  The one and only missing element is sharing of genetic material between her and D9, and me and S5.  The two kids even share the same donor.  Same-sex couples already deal with enough dismissal from society of the non-bio parent's bond, and I shared my concern in session today that I felt the essay only contributed to that in the context of our relationship. 

uBPDw is the one who makes an issue of the lack of bio connection with D9.  I stressed that uBPDw has had every bit as much opportunity to develop her bond with the kids.  I have not interfered with that, but she said I always make it seem that my position is I "know best when it comes to D9."  She gave the example of our first co-parenting argument over one instance of feeding D9 at a particular time when she was an infant.  I shared that from my perspective, the argument was not about what action should be taken, rather it was about us not agreeing on that action and her deciding to do it anyway.

I also shared my concern that the essay portrays the "step-parent's" approach and parenting decisions as what is right and appropriate, and indicates the "bio parent" is not parenting or is failing at parenting.  There is no discussion in the essay about alignment on parenting before presenting the "united front" to the children.

uBPDw is personally offended at the idea of disengaging and she is fixating on that, demanding specific details of how that's supposed to work.  Couples T and I both tried to express (at different points) that it's not about her parenting ability or competence.  The recommendation was made to help create space for uBPDw to improve her relationship with D9.  uBPDw kept going back to her interpretation of what being asked to step back reflected about her parenting.

The kernel of truth there is that, while we are creating space to improve her bonds with the children by disengaging, we do still have to address our joint approach to parenting.  I do feel (and so does my T, and the couples T has also hinted) that uBPDw's approach is what's not working for those bonds.  I reiterated that it's not only D9 who exhibits concerning behavior, even though hers is much more severe.  uBPDw herself shared examples with the couples T in our last session of S5 hitting, throwing things, calling her the "worst Mommy," etc.  I also shared that I felt like uBPDw is overly critical and corrects too much behavior (especially with D9), which we have already touched on in a prior couples session.  There is not enough picking of battles and letting mistakes happen without harsh reactions.

We couldn't really move past all this in the session, but I did also make sure to ask that we address the anger uBPDw said she was still carrying towards me from our argument on Sunday.  Couples T gave us an opportunity to discuss, at which point uBPDw launched a serious attack, turning to me with criticism, f-bombs, tears, and accusations of how much I hurt her for:

1) Saying I thought the recommendation made by couples T was to disengage temporarily from both kids
2) Sharing my opinion (after being prompted by her!) that I did think it made sense for a couple of reasons (which I also shared as neutrally as I could, but stressed that we should reach out to the couples T for clarification)

uBPDw wanted me to apologize for hurting her, but when I did she wasn't satisfied.  The couples T helped her express that her "apology language" (see book titled "The Five Languages of Apology" which couples T recommended to us) is for me to say that I was wrong.  So I shared that I felt uBPDw expected me to say my opinion was wrong, and that I couldn't agree to do that.  I was willing to (and did) apologize for the way I delivered my opinion--even though it pained me at lot to do so since I tried to be so careful already!   So apologized and agreed that my delivery was wrong since it clearly hurt her.  I added that I am currently actively working on being more validating and less invalidating.  She threw the apology back at me saying "yeah, I have told you many times that your delivery sucks!"

I told the couples T that I feel like there is no room for me to have any opinions that contradict uBPDw or go against what she wants.  uBPDw made this about her again, saying something along the lines of "we're both bad at validating each other."  So I expressed frustration to the therapist that:

1) My apology was thrown back at me and turned around as an attack on my ability to deliver my opinions, and
2) Once again I tried to share my feelings of oppression in the relationship and it was again turned around and made about uBPDw, with no acknowledgement or validation for what I'm going through

I stood firm and specifically stated that I will no longer deny my opinions, hide my opinions, or subjugate my opinions to hers out of fear for her reactions or how she feels about them.  She said she has never asked me to do this, and I immediately replied (I was keyed up and know it wasn't the best choice) that her reactions are what make me do it.  I also shared the discovery from my own therapy that I am experiencing anxiety.  That I am fixating on things, not focusing at work, etc. throughout the week based on these arguments.  My T said uBPDw needs to know how this is seriously affecting me, but I don't think she can look beyond her own hurt feelings to care much about that.

Leaving the session was hard.  uBPDw was very down, teary, upset.  She says the couples therapy sessions are hard and "sh*tty" for her because she is hearing she has all the work to do.  That our problems are the result of her behavior, her anger, etc.  She added complaints that her job sucks because she is still fighting with her former employer over some topics, can't get work to her current clients on time (she's now self-employed), doesn't have financing lined up for her new business, owes who knows what to who knows how many people, etc. etc.  And she says I am no longer her "safe place" so she doesn't have anyone to turn to.

Her DBT therapist suggested that she take a break like the one I had this past weekend for my sister's bachelorette party.  She mentioned it last night and said today that she felt her request was received with apathy.  Said she wants more support from me to make this happen.  I told her all I ask is that cost be kept under control (due to currently reduced income), but it's not up to me otherwise as to what that break looks like.  Said I will of course do what I need to in order to support her getting a break by taking care of the kids.  There is nothing more I can give her on this front--I'm emotionally burnt out and she knows it.  The well is dry.

Yikes... .thank you to anyone who stuck around through all of that.  I don't know what I'm looking for right now other than an outlet to get this off my chest.  I'm not looking forward to the weekend, or the next few weeks and months for that matter.

mw

[formflier]

  She threw the apology back at me saying "yeah, I have told you many times that your delivery sucks!"
 

So... .just to be clear... .this was said to you in the session?

I'm assuming all the rest of the things she said were said in session... .in front of the T.


What was the T's reaction to this... .did she use this as a teaching moment?


What if you had said "How many times have I asked you not to interrupt me?" 

Hmmm... .I certainly want to confirm my understanding with your answers... .but... .I think the focus needs to be having a civil conversation in T... just like the focus at home needs to be having a civil conversation. 

Please don't take this the wrong way... .the details don't matter.  I realize in this case the "detail" is your child (who matters a lot... )... .but please understand you and the T appear to have "fallen for" and got "sucked into" a classic BPD tactic of tossing around lots of details... .tossing around lots of "i'm hurt you apologize"... and... .nothing gets solved.

How much time was spent discussing not interrupting each other?

How much time was spent discussing when and how to remove children from a room when things "devolve" into an adult conversation?

     

FF

[mama-wolf]

Yes, everything prior to it being hard when we left the session was said in front of the T (except my observation about uBPDw not caring much about my feelings... .that was just for this post).

True, not much time was spent on not interrupting and other elements of healthy co-parenting.  The T seemed to feel bad about stirring something up with the essay, but I told her I felt like it only brought to the forefront some bigger issues that really must be addressed:

• uBPDw's insecurities about her parenting and relationship with D9 due to lack of bio connection
• her anger at me for somehow making that worse
• my inability to effectively express any conflicting opinions (including parenting approach) without 1) her taking it personally and 2) me sparking a major rage

We can't really move forward effectively on co-parenting until we clear the air about this stuff.   

Plus... .honestly... .I can only hope uBPDw's behavior today helps the couples T understand why I so heavily identify with being the Non.  Whether or not she ultimately thinks uBPDw should be diagnosed with BPD, I really want to believe that the behaviors uBPDw has displayed will help the couples T modify her approach with both of us as needed.  She spent much of the session trying to defuse uBPDw's reactions and gently identifying behaviors that were not working (for example, her observation of me withdrawing even more emotionally as uBPDw was verbally attacking me).

mw

[formflier]

We can't really move forward effectively on co-parenting until we clear the air about this stuff.   
 

I can see this... .but I hope you can see "how crazy works".  All these other things are now "in the way" of getting your child out of the line of fire of the interrupting, badgering, hurry up... .etc etc.

So... .if it takes 2 months to "clear the air" about these things above... .do you and your daughter just not speak... .whenever she wants to interrupt?

How long until your next session? 

My preview of next session would be taking the first 10 minutes to specifically deal with moving the child OUT of the "line of fire" so to speak of a rageful person (for whatever reason they are raging)

Can you see how in that case... .it doesn't really matter what the rage is about... .the child's needs have been elevated above the adults... .and clear boundaries set about what are "adult" conversations and "child conversations".

That after that session you will be enforcing those boundaries.

FF

[formflier]

  The T seemed to feel bad about stirring something up with the essay, but I told her I felt like it only brought to the forefront some bigger issues that really must be addressed:
 

I wanted to separate out the essay.  From where I sit... .it seemed like a reasonable analogy to present... to make the point she appears to be trying to make.

At this point, I think I would embrace the essay and embrace your partner asking what stepping back would look like.  

Did you guys tell her... specifically what that would look like?


(trying to keep the post to related points)

So... if she is NOT a step parent... .then what is she?

The way the language is here plays right into the BPD play book... . Not this... not that... wrong... .negative.

Stay positive... describe what she is... not what she is not.    Can you see how that is a big shift?

Really... .I think embracing a common term "step parent" might be helpful.  

But... whatever you do... .describe what she is.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

mama-wolf,

I can so totally relate to this... .

I stood firm and specifically stated that I will no longer deny my opinions, hide my opinions, or subjugate my opinions to hers out of fear for her reactions or how she feels about them.  She said she has never asked me to do this, and I immediately replied... .that her reactions are what make me do it.

bigger issues that really must be addressed... .my inability to effectively express any conflicting opinions (including parenting approach) without 1) her taking it personally and 2) me sparking a major rage[/li][/list]

THIS has been, perhaps, my number 1 biggest struggle in my relationship. And it has seriously affected my financial situation, but more importantly, my ability to co-parent / effectively parent our daughter to the best of MY ability.

How ready do you feel, personally, to stand by your conviction to hold on to your opinions, and express them, no matter what, even in the face of serious explosive anger and rage from your uBPDw? Can you realistically expect your wife to change sufficiently to make this an easy task for you? Is this something you can work on independently of anything your wife may or may not change?

[mama-wolf]

Thank you FF and DB for your replies over the weekend.  Sorry for my delay... .I decided I needed to take a break over the weekend.  I had gotten to the point where I was on the boards a little obsessively... .reading, posting, replying, etc.  I find it really helpful, but I was letting myself get distracted from work responsibilities and chores at home

FF, I definitely do see "how crazy works" and will remain on guard for the distractions and derailment.  Absolutely agreed that it is critical to get children out of the line of fire.  Our couples sessions are currently once a week (Friday mornings), and we will be addressing logistics in the session coming up this week.

I feel like it's important to stress that I was not offended by Red5's statement that he could relate to my step-parent dynamic.  I hope my response did not come across that way, and if it did I'm very sorry to Red5 and any others I may have given that impression.  It's a matter of me not wanting to perpetuate that idea for my situation, although some of the dynamics are still very much the same.

I have and will continue to stress that we are both parents to these children.  Full stop.  No modifier.   No bio-this, no step-that.  She is as much a parent to D9 as I am to S5.  We both have the same responsibility to their healthy emotional development (along with everything else that comes with being a parent).  And very much agreed... .approaching from the positive of what we are will be very important.  We must also be able to address what has (and has not) been working.

How ready do you feel, personally, to stand by your conviction to hold on to your opinions, and express them, no matter what, even in the face of serious explosive anger and rage from your uBPDw? Can you realistically expect your wife to change sufficiently to make this an easy task for you? Is this something you can work on independently of anything your wife may or may not change?

DB, these are really good questions.  I know this is going to be an ongoing struggle for me, probably for years to come.  Most important to me right now is that I maintain focus on how bad things have gotten because I have lost myself (and my voice) up until recently, and on how important it will be for my own and my kids' well-being to continue the change that I have started with that dynamic.

I doubt uBPDw will change enough in the near future for things to get much better anytime soon.   However, with our couples T's (and my own T's) encouragement, I have been somewhat successful drawing the line in conversations that I feel are headed into dangerous territory, and expressing that I can't continue at that time.  Essentially calling a time-out before things have a chance to escalate.  My T especially recommended this because of the impact these arguments and explosions were having on me (provoking anxiety), and it seems to at least be helping me.

I did this last night when she wanted to discuss some things that were bothering her, and she ended up raging without me in the room (thankfully it was after the kids went to bed).  It's only when I heard her yell and throw something (ended up being just a box of tissues, but still), I calmly came into the room and said I will remove the children from the home if she starts breaking things or if she wakes them up and they see her in the state she was in.  She really didn't like that, but she also quieted down and I went to bed.

My best approach for the time being is to address these conflicting opinions with a professional third party present.  For now (and the foreseeable future), that would be our couples therapist.  Eventually, it may also be an attorney helping us mediate a separation agreement.  I know it's not possible to avoid having these conflicts one-on-one, and will continue to work on my own validating/not invalidating efforts so that I can try to de-escalate the situations as much as possible.  If all else fails, I know I have the right to exit the conversation until she is calmer and more willing to actually talk.

mw

[formflier]

I have and will continue to stress that we are both parents to these children.  Full stop.  No modifier.   No bio-this, no step-that.  She is as much a parent to D9 as I am to S5.  

Good... .I like the positivism.  Talking about what you are.   

Now... .this does have to (in your mind and perhaps that of your children) have to be understood as a way of looking at things and "then there is reality".  That you are choosing for the sake of the relationship to call each other equals, while not "denying biology".

Boy... I hope that makes sense.  I only say this... .because "the truth of the matter" is that there are differences. (please... .I'm not trying to double talk here... .)

I think this thought can be "extended" to the health of your relationship.  Since there are no differences in the way you both have decided to act and treat each other... .no one person gets to "dominate" parenting. (hope you see where I am going here).

Which means nobody has the right to "butt in" and take over.

See the thought?

Switching gears.  Does your partner go to T on individual basis?

If not... that needs to be addressed.

Last... .back to perceptions.

Do the children understand the differences between you guys?  It seems like they do to me, but I'm still new to the thread and situation.

FF 

[mama-wolf]

Switching gears.  Does your partner go to T on individual basis?

Do the children understand the differences between you guys?  It seems like they do to me, but I'm still new to the thread and situation.

Yes, she sees a DBT therapist once a week, and sees a PA to manage her medications every few weeks or so.

And as far as the kids understanding the difference between us, I'm not quite sure what you mean.  I know D9 in particular recognizes that she and I behave very differently, but I don't know if she understands that much of that difference is based on uBPDw's mental illness (anxiety, depression, OCD, ADHD, and of course borderline behaviors).  I don't really see much point in them pursuing any other understanding of difference... .again, we are both their parents.

On the topic of mental illness, I really need uBPDw to recognize the impacts her mental illness potentially has (and has already had) on our children.  She tried to start a "discussion" last night about my contributions to D9's behavior in particular.  She tries to present D9 as having major emotional problems.  She acknowledged that D9 has started back with her therapist, but uBPDw wants to have her see some other specialist that a friend took her son to, and uBPDw has previously mentioned wanting to consider medication for D9.

I am adamantly opposed to pursuing any specialist treatment--and especially opposed to medications--until uBPDw specifically addresses her own impact on D9's (and S5's) emotional development.  So very much of D9's behavior can be explained by uBPDw's behavior and reactions, and I am comfortable with D9 working with her current therapist to work through these things.  uBPDw said last night she thinks Micah is "too smart" and knows how to tell her therapist what she knows the therapist wants to hear.  While I'm sure D9 tries to do this and may have gotten away with it some last year, part of the responsibility for that rests with us... .we weren't doing enough to check in and keep the therapist updated on our own observations, which has been addressed now that D9 has started back up with sessions.

I think uBPDw is coming at it from the perspective of:

1) She "just" wants our kids to grow up with good manners, to behave properly, and not cause others to think poorly of their parents (she doesn't want to be embarrassed by our kids' behavior)
2) She is frustrated that I don't fully back her up in her parenting approach, which as I have observed before is very critical, typically impatient, and overly correcting
3) She does not want to acknowledge that she has even more work to do... .having to adjust her parenting approach in addition to having to change how she relates to me as her spouse
4) She thinks D9 feels she can forum shop and show preference to the more "lenient" parent (me) which she feels I allow her to get away with

Based on all of this, she is looking for me to acknowledge and take responsibility for allowing this environment where D9 doesn't like to be corrected by uBPDw, and she wants me to squash that and present that "united front."  Nowhere in any of the discussion is her acknowledging that her own mental illness causes her reactions to be more extreme than they need to be, causes her to be increasingly demanding of immediate and blind obedience, causes her to be personally hurt that the kids (especially D9) want to shut down and not interact with her at all.  I could go on.

I fully recognize that I play a role here... .I just don't think it's the role uBPDw has assigned to me and I need to figure out how to get this out in the open with our couples T and with D9's T.

mw

[formflier]

Good... .

At first blush... .I think you can agree with her on goals and agree with her that doctors and outside help is important (it is critical to "agree" when you can) and for both of you to acknowledge that they need to help both of you with parenting.

I would focus more on what you will and won't do... .because you control that.

She may or may not "admit" anything.

Focus your energy on what you control... .be honest and upfront about that.

More later.

FF