Relationship deteriorating rapidly- Pt 1

[bananas2]

So much has changed in the last 6 weeks since I posted.

My last post was on Nov 20th and was on the "Improving" board. I had posted about how well marriage counseling was going and that I'd seen improvements in myself and in BPDH's behaviors. I wrote about how, for the first time in years, I was feeling excited about our upcoming wedding anniversary and hopeful about the future of our marriage.

Things have gone very far south in such a short period... .

BPDH started with a new therapist last year. I searched for ages to find a local T who specializes in BPD & DBT. Hub agreed to therapy and after I saw that he was keeping his appointments & actively participating, I agreed to his request for marriage counseling. We found a new marriage counselor and we both started making improvements. About a month ago, H started a huge backslide. He began wavering on whether or not he actually has BPD (diagnosed by 3+ MH pros). I had a hard time with that, but eventually decided I could deal with him not using the label "Borderline," so long as he is still doing DBT and working on his behaviors. He recently told me that although he's still going to therapy, that he never was doing DBT, will never do it, and that his T said he "used to have BPD, but doesn't anymore." Again, I accepted it, trying not to get hung up on labels.
But now, as I feared would happen in his doing CBT and not DBT, his behaviors are worsening and he is beginning to dysregulate more often and is reverting back to his old patterns of psychologically tormenting me (gaslighting, threats of infidelity, financial manipulation, screaming, etc). It got so bad that a couple weeks ago, I had a mental breakdown which required emergency professional intervention.

Since then, I've been trying to determine how to approach with him the topic of his behaviors, but he has been generally unapproachable. So I decided to bring it up in MC last night. I expressed to our T that I felt that the only way we could continue making progress would be for him to do DBT as he had promised. She agreed and asked him if he would do this. He said absolutely not. T said that he has made his decision and that I must work toward radically accepting it, and bc of his decision, any future sessions we have will be dedicated solely to "peaceful coexistence," and no longer focus on improving the marriage.

So this brings me to being conflicted. I don't want to continue MC with the goal of simply "coexisting." That's just too heartbreaking for me. Hub wants to continue MC. The agreement was always that we only continue MC if he does DBT. He broke the agreement.

So do I leave the window open for him to change his mind about DBT? If I do leave the window open indefinitely, it puts me in limbo, where I can't work towards radical acceptance of his unwillingness to ever change his behaviors.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you all for listening.

P.S. - For those of you who don't know my story, I am physically disabled and unable to live alone. Therefore if I ever end up feeling like I want to leave the r/s, it would be logistically impossible.

[pearlsw]

Hi bananas2,

This is such a tough situation!

After reading your post my first thought is as much as you don't want it, and as much as it feels like a broken promise, do you think you could possibly give the peaceful co-existence approach a chance? Sort of push past your "resistance" and see if there is anything at all that you could get from this. I know it is not your goal or your dream, but peaceful co-existence sounds like it may offer some good elements. Is there anything good about it you could objectively identify, pretending for a moment this was someone else and not you in this situation? (I say this because I don't even have this much!)

I know it might not seem like much, but it is something that he has agreed to MC. Has he expressed what his goal is? Maybe you can give yourself a set amount of time (2, 3-6 mo's?) you could try this out and then reevaluate at a later date?

Take the time to examine yourself... .did your own expectations perhaps set you for disappointment? Would radically accepting that MC is the best he can do at this time, that he can't see himself in a way that allows for other types of treatment, be an option?

wishing you peace, pearlsw.

[formflier]

Hey... .  

I'm 100% disabled through the VA... and just got my SSDI approved.  My disabilities are a big part off the conflict in my r/s.  Although I am able to live independently if I needed to.

Can you tell us more about your disabilites... .or PM me if you want.

Hang in there

[bananas2]

I know it might not seem like much, but it is something that he has agreed to MC. Has he expressed what his goal is?

The marriage counseling was his idea. I was the one who was initially resistant for several reasons, one of them being that he has a history of manipulating T's, which is why we made the agreement that I would go to MC as long as he was doing DBT.
He has expressed that his MC goal is "to move forward in the r/s." When the T asked him to elaborate, he explained that he wants to get me to "get over" his previous infidelities and "shut up about the cheating already."

do you think you could possibly give the peaceful co-existence approach a chance?

I am considering it. My reluctance is two-fold:
1) It's painful for me to think of going to MC but no longer be working toward improving our marriage. Although in time, I may be able to get past this feeling.
2) He broke his agreement to do DBT. If there is no consequence for breaking this agreement, I fear he will continue to break other future agreements.

[bananas2]

Should we point out to a pwBPD when he/she is dysregulating?

I tend to get distant/quiet when BPDH dysregulates, then he will demand I tell him what's wrong bc I'm being quiet. Always wanting to be honest with him, I carefully point out his behaviors that are causing me to recoil. Example: "I'm being quiet bc you seem to be having extreme/disproportionate reactions." This appears to agitate him further and usually elicits a rage response. If I go in the other direction and say that nothing is wrong, then I'm being dishonest and he tells me I'm "pretending" with him which also results in a rage response from him.

Not sure what to do here.

[Radcliff]

bananas2,

I am so sorry to hear this news.  I shared your excitement last fall when things were going well.  It has got to be heartbreaking to have a setback like this.  You are in a tough situation, and I'm feeling like I need to absorb it and think rather than just advise.  Thought that leads me to the only thing I can suggest.  Give yourself some time.  Your intellect and your emotional need for resolution may be driving you to figure all of this out right away.  It's terribly tough.  Don't force it.  Your thoughts and feelings may evolve.  So may his.  With a pwBPD, the end keeps coming.  Again, and again, and again.  And yet, it doesn't end.  There's a lot of game left ahead.

Since you're in this for the long haul, I think you might find it worth it to look at this reply of mine I lifted from one of ozmatoz's threads, and to watch the video.  Had I known about this years ago, I would have given it a try. (The quote frame is a little wonky because I pulled it from a locked thread).

While drafting this reply, I figured I'd better go back and read up on the site resources on how to get a borderline into therapy.  Obviously, we're not going to talk about BPD!   I like the idea of talking about tools that are helpful.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is an hour and forty minutes long.  In my experience this evening, it takes two margaritas and a half bag of popcorn to get through it.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help! How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment."  In the video, he says that two things are predictive of whether or not someone will stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.  Bottom line, I think this guy is onto something that is straightforward enough for an engineer to follow.  Dude, it took me a court order to get DBT going.  Maybe you can one up me!

I'm sorry you're going through this, but am glad to see you posting and receiving support here.

   

WW

[formflier]

I agree that you shouldn't tell an untruth, that is differently from blurting out the truth at any instant.

So... .when he asks... ."I'm pensive and quiet and I'm still trying to think through why.  It would help if we could relax on the couch and discuss something else"

Or perhaps add that you ask he not take it personally.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I would say "I'm feeling uncomfortable." That makes it totally about me.

If pressed for the "why" I might add, "Loud voice tones make me feel nervous."

It's hard not to say "You're behavior is a problem." But breaking it down into smaller pieces and saying how a particular thing affects you is better than saying something where they think you are judging them (extreme/disproportionate reactions).

I know it's a slippery slope, but I've been able to more successfully get him to understand his impact upon me this way.

[Gettingbetter310]

Wow, your situation sounds extremely difficult and I’m sorry you’re expediting such gaps and pain. Firstly I want to gently challenge you... .you say you’re physically disabled and if you want to leave the relationship then it is logistically impossible... with utmost respect to your disability, I’ve found that if someone truly wants to leave a situation they will find a way. For example... .couldn’t you call a family member and find a studio or a caretaker if things were to absolutely get unbearable? My intuition just tells me that you’re using your disability to manipulate yourself into believing that you are too disabled to leave the relationship. Please don’t get offended just truly question this inside yourself for a second.

Now, if that happens to be the case subconsciously. No judgment toward you at all and it seems like he has put you in a catch-22 lose lose situation. Therefore accepting it is all you can really do. UNLESS you choose to NOT ENABLE HIM. What that would look like is holding him accountable for his broken promise and building firm boundaries. You would then end up feeling a higher level of self respect even if you do choose to be with him. Because part of you deep down is already upset with yourself for staying with someone who consistently disrespected you even if it’s because of their diagnosis. So maybe you would feel a little stronger and better about your sense of self if you end up reading up on how to have firm boundaries to protect yourself from heartbreaks every time he breaks a promise- even if you laying boundaries causes him to freak out

[sweetheart]

'When you're shouting at me/saying things I find hurtful, I feel upset and go quiet because I want you to stop.'

[bananas2]

Give yourself some time.  Your intellect and your emotional need for resolution may be driving you to figure all of this out right away.  It's terribly tough.  :)on't force it.  Your thoughts and feelings may evolve.  So may his.

Thanks, Wentworth. I needed to hear this.

Re: the video, I had planned to watch it when I first saw the link on the original thread, but I'm going to have to hold off on approaching H re: treatment, bc of what he told me this morning... .

He said that he's giving me two weeks to "change my attitude," or he's filing for divorce. He elaborated that "changing my attitude" includes me never talking to him again about him having a mental illness. He also said that he doesn't now and never did have any psych issues (despite all the professional diagnoses & 2 prior psych hospitalizations). The only reason he is continuing with his individual T is bc he "needs to learn how deal with me and all I am putting him through." Told me he's been lying to me all this time about his treatment plan/goals, and that he has never worked on any of his issues bc he "doesn't have any." The denial is strong in this one. Also included in "changing my attitude" is to stop asking him questions and never tell him again that "I'm hurt" by anything he did/does. Strange criteria. Also completely unacceptable to me. I can deal with the part about not discussing his BPD, but the not asking any questions and never expressing when he harms me? No.

you say you’re physically disabled and if you want to leave the relationship then it is logistically impossible... with utmost respect to your disability, I’ve found that if someone truly wants to leave a situation they will find a way. For example... .couldn’t you call a family member and find a studio or a caretaker if things were to absolutely get unbearable? My intuition just tells me that you’re using your disability to manipulate yourself into believing that you are too disabled to leave the relationship. Please don’t get offended just truly question this inside yourself for a second.

No worries - I'm not at all offended. I always like a challenge! I should not have used the word "impossible." I know there are always options. I realize I should have said that leaving would be "extraordinarily difficult." I don't have a family member or friend who would be able to help me out, and although my current insurance would pay for a caretaker, if we got divorced, I would lose H's insurance and have to go back to Medicare, which doesn't pay for home care for my specific disability. I'd also have to live on only my SSDI, which is incredibly  difficult (I know - I did it for a couple years before my condition worsened). I'm certain I could figure out a way to leave, but it might mean that my life becomes even more difficult than it is now. So I stay, for now. Thank you though for reminding me "where there's a will, there's a way," and to not let "impossible" become part of my internal dialogue.  

Because part of you deep down is already upset with yourself for staying with someone who consistently disrespected you even if it’s because of their diagnosis.

You hit the nail on the head with that statement. Looks like I have another topic to address with my individual T next week!

UNLESS you choose to NOT ENABLE HIM. What that would look like is holding him accountable for his broken promise and building firm boundaries.

I'm pretty decent with the boundaries, but unsure how to hold him accountable for his promise-breaking. What would that part look like?

Edit: He threatens me with divorce 3-4 times a year, so this may be just another empty threat. He uses it to get what he wants bc he knows the possibility of my losing his excellent healthcare coverage scares me.

[Radcliff]

When you say "hold him accountable," you talk as if you want to modify his behavior (and of course anyone in your situation would).  Boundaries are about what we do with our own behavior.  If he works late without letting you know, you eat dinner without him.  That protects you from being hungry.  As a bonus, he may start coming home earlier to calling to let you know he's running late, but that's not the primary goal.  The nice thing with this arrangement is we have a very high probability of getting the benefit of the boundary if we control our behavior to get it.  If we have carefully selected the boundary we can also be confident in our right to have it, since we enjoy many rights to control our own behavior.  Controlling someone else's behavior is much more difficult.  And our right to control someone else's behavior may be more likely to be challenged than if we are controlling our own.

In a group at work or in a family it is possible to foster an environment of accountability using leadership, setting an example, rewards, peer pressure, a sense of mission, etc.  I believe it is possible in a healthy marriage as well.  Trust, and I think accountability, is a main topic in "How to Make Love Last," by John Gottman.  But I think any environment of accountability requires the actors to have some commitment to a common goal and to have a basic ability to be accountable.  I am not at all an expert in this, so if anyone has had success growing accountability in a pwBPD I'd love to hear about it.  If I had to hazard a guess, it might involve DBT.  One of the key issues with accountability and pwBPD is that they have a poorly developed sense of self.  Accountability trouble stems right from the cognitive deficits involved in BPD.

My pwBPD and I are also on a very different page with respect to accountability for her actions.  I failed completely in my efforts to get her to be accountable.  Any agreements were ephemeral and not based on a true feeling from her that she was responsible (at least not a feeling or conviction that lasted more than a little while).  She is in DBT and another intervention program.  She is either going to get it or she isn't.  And I believe that whether she gets it or not is likely to determine the course of our relationship.  The only thing that got us this far was my willingness to risk the relationship and the fact that I took drastic action.  I can observe whether she is developing accountability and I can decide how I will act in response to that, but I can't make her get accountable.  Perhaps my willingness to leave increases the incentive for her, which may increase the chances, but she's going to need to do the work.  I can't engineer success for her, I have reluctantly realized.

Getting back to his promises, he is clearly not good at keeping promises.  Take the promise to do DBT for example.  Clearly, the fact that he promised to do it is not compelling to him.  You are unlikely to be able to change that (it's that BPD accountability thing in the frontal lobe).  That doesn't mean that he won't ever do DBT, but the promise seems worthless as a motivator.  This may sound crazy, but what about stopping actively campaigning to get him to keep promises?  Worry about it less?  You might choose not to look at it as giving in, but like a general choosing not to fight a battle she is not confident she can win, preserving her strength for campaigns where she can have an impact.  Another thought is that if you take someone incapable of keeping promises and force them to make one, you've essentially just created a guilty person because the broken promise is inevitable.  Perhaps avoid promises and take things day by day?

On that video, I saw it many months ago and decided without watching it that it wouldn't help me.  I was surprised when I watched it.  I actually think now might be a great time for you to watch it, because the approach is not what I thought.  It's not about a frontal assault on the problem, or getting things to happen quickly.  It might help you let go of some of your frustration from past battles.  Honestly, I think it might be a little healing.  It talks a lot about anosognosia, when someone who is mentally ill doesn't know it.  The speaker, a psychiatrist, talks in a very heartfelt way, from personal experience trying to get his brother into therapy, about how agonizing it can be for the loved one to keep pushing and failing, and how it can damage the relationship.  He talks about another way which is not as antagonistic.  I wish seen the video many years ago before things got out of hand and had been able to give his techniques a try.  He doesn't get too deeply into his techniques in the video, so I think the book might be worth reading.

Sorry, I'm skipping around here, but one other thing I wanted to talk about is the divorce threats.  My wife threatened divorce regularly, and was very convincing.  I became accustomed to it, but my heart aches just remembering.  Despite the fact that she had never followed through, the stress was still huge, and it destroyed trust and took our relationship back to square one every time.  Our pwBPD and other abusive people use threats to control us to get what they want or make the world feel less threatening to them.  It's the fear that makes it work.  If you can take the fear away, or blunt it, the control weakens, and you may feel better able to assert boundaries.  To help address my fear of divorce, I read "Splitting" and I also picked an apartment complex where I could live that I could afford.  Knowing where I'd go and having a budget prepared and figuring out all those other logistics helped me to be more confident and less fearful about the divorce threats, even though I never intended to move out -- that preparation actually allowed me to be more effective in the relationship.  As you said, you have a very daunting challenge to live independently.  You may have already done this, but working out the specifics might help.  Or if you already know the specifics from past experience, remind yourself when things get tough.  The other very nice benefit of thinking like that is that you start walking and talking and feeling like someone who has options.  You are not trapped.  You are in control of your own destiny and are choosing to stay.  I've seen some of this confidence from you at times, though I think it may come and go depending on how you are feeling.  And this thread is the first time I've seen you state outright that living independently *is* possible, just awfully, awfully tough.

I hope some of this is helpful.  I am sure it could be more concise -- thanks for your patience with the verbosity!

WW

[Radcliff]

"I'm being quiet bc you seem to be having extreme/disproportionate reactions." This appears to agitate him further and usually elicits a rage response.

Can you see the invalidating/judgemental character of this remark?  He certainly does.

So... .when he asks... ."I'm pensive and quiet and I'm still trying to think through why.  It would help if we could relax on the couch and discuss something else"

This sounds very safe, though potentially invalidating to you since you're not really trying to think through why -- you know why, and it's his loud voice.

I would say "I'm feeling uncomfortable." That makes it totally about me.

If pressed for the "why" I might add, "Loud voice tones make me feel nervous."

Depends on how sensitive he is.  If he finds the reference to loud voice tones to be accusatory, then you're off to the races.  A slight improvement on that might be "loud sounds make me nervous."  For some reason, "voice" sounds more personal to me, compared to discussing loud sounds in general.

OK, I'm going with "loud sounds make me nervous, can we sit on the couch and talk about something else?"  Honest enough not to invalidate you, not accusatory to him, and distracts by moving to something safe (you could even suggest a safe topic).

WW

[formflier]

If your hubby wants to divorce you... .he can... even if you say no.  Remember that.

So... .all else is likely manipulation.  Do this or I will (fill in blank).

In your mind, you need to figure out if you want to have threats in your r/s.  If you don't... .then don't ever... .ever... .give in to a threat.  Don't fight them either. 

Walking away is usually best.

Perhaps a good boundary would be that you will not talk about mental health outside a Ts office.

I have several boundaries like that.  I basically say that I don't "pass messages" so if she wants to know what a professional has said to me, we can both sit in a room and listen and she can ask questions directly.

Hint... .they almost never will take you up on this

FF

[formflier]

Another option

"I'm not comfortable with the words between us.  I'm taking time to think this through"

You reference togetherness and identify what is "between you".  No judgement about how they got there.  He can figure it out... .or not.

You are being honest... .and wise... by "thinking it through".

Tone of voice should be concerned and confused.

FF

[bananas2]

Knowing where I'd go and having a budget prepared and figuring out all those other logistics helped me to be more confident and less fearful about the divorce threats, even though I never intended to move out -- that preparation actually allowed me to be more effective in the relationship.

Funny that you say this, bc yesterday I started "thinking out loud" to H about some specifics of what my plan would look like should he decide to go forth with the divorce. He appeared shocked to hear that I've begun planning out my life without him. I believe he fully expected me to cry and beg him not to leave. After discussing my plan, I told him that I have no control over his decision to divorce me, and if that's truly his desire, then I will survive. I reminded him I've survived worse situations and I will absolutely survive this too. He listened to me intently, then followed up with "But you can't live independently." I calmly responded with "True. I'd have to get a roommate or find someone to live with. I can't live independently, but I can live independently of you."

A few hours later, he told me he no longer wants to divorce. He hugged me, apologized and said that he's going to start working on his "issues." My reply to him was a short & sweet "ok."

I had only been putting my plans in place in order to empower myself. I wasn't trying to change his mind, nor did I expect to elicit any type of response from him, yet simply changing my mindset from "I can't" to "I can" affected his behavior.

He informed me that he had cancelled our MC session since I had told him that I would no longer be participating bc of his broken DBT agreement. He then said that he contacted our T and asked her if he could keep the appointment, but that he would be attending without me, with the purpose of learning r/s skills for the future. He told me he would still like me to attend the session if I'm willing. I responded that I need to think about it and get back to him with an answer before the appointment next week.
So, I'm still not sure what to do. The agreement was MC only if he does DBT. He's not doing DBT. I feel if I go to the appointment, that it sends him the message that he can break future agreements without consequence. If I don't go, I may be missing out on an opportunity to learn new skills to "peacefully co-exist."

Wentworth - You convinced me. I'm going to watch the video.

Perhaps a good boundary would be that you will not talk about mental health outside a Ts office.

This is a possibility. Considering it.

[formflier]

I would advise you to go.  Get in front of the counselor and him and calmly explain your decision to come and that you would like to hear the counselors opinion about DBT for him, you, both... etc etc.

Ask her to explain her thoughts on people doing MC without working on individual improvement and learning new skills.  

Stay away from saying "their own issues" or judgmental things like that.

The important part is that you are both in the room listening about a way forward.   I would not agree to anything in that session.

If a way forward is proposed ask questions, say that it sounds good at first blush but you want to give it some thought.  Come back next week with answer.

FF

[Radcliff]

An alternate thought is to not go, at least this next time.  The fact that he offered to put it back on the schedule and go without you is huge.  Following through and completing that commitment could help establish a mood of collaboration in his mind (feelings following actions) and it seems like it might be helpful to you.  Even if you hang back just one week, and go the next, you've taken a bit of a stand and it won't be like you've just capitulated.  Give him a ton of positive reinforcement for going to MC alone.

You got me thinking a little about MC without DBT.  How might that go?  The thing I started thinking is that you want behaviors to improve.  We both happen to feel that having our spouses in DBT is the best thing.  I wouldn't back away from that as a long term aspiration.  But what if you could get some improvements with MC?  Not by banging your head over and over like it's Groundhog Day, though.  Have you read the book, The High Conflict Couple?  It's by a DBT/BPD guy at University of Washington, Alan Fruzetti.  I wonder if your MC has read it.  Maybe your husband goes this time solo, and you go next time solo, and see if your MC might be willing to help you guys work through the DBT-inspired techniques in that book.  Totally different dynamic than trying to make your husband go to DBT.  You are putting some skin in the game, and willing to practice the High Conflict Couple stuff.  What are your thoughts?

Take your time.  Go slow.  Keep things positive.

WW

[Lucky Jim]

Heybananas2, To me the best course of action is to get out of the line of fire by leaving the room, leaving the house, calling a timeout, or some similar strategy to protect yourself.  I found communication futile when my BPDxW was in a full-blown rage.  Sad to say, I spent many a night at the local motel.

LuckyJim

[BasementDweller]

This has worked for me 100% of the time: "I'm feeling a bit anxious but I'm not sure why. I can't turn my brain off right now. I want to talk to you, but I don't want to trouble you with things I haven't fully formulated within my own head yet. I'd like to sit with you and be near you right now, but maybe we can talk later? I want to express myself the best I can to you, and I need time to think. What do you think about that?"

This has worked for a number of reasons:

1.) "It's not you - it's me." Because, that's true in many cases. It's not always the pwBPD that is the instigator. It's often the non. Or both of us equally. These relationships are hard, right?

2.) We all have trouble turning off our anxieties. PwBPD, and those who love them. They GET this.

3.) We love our partners, want to share with them, confide in them, but not over-burden them. Nobody wants to be a "drag" not even the people with BPD.  Nobody wants that. They get this too.

4.) I want you by my side, even if we can't fix everything today. We are still a team.

5.) You deserve the best of my expressions and understanding, and I want to say it right. What do you think about letting me have some time to do that for you?

And none of this is insincere, or "blowing smoke up the a$$" of the BPD partner. It's genuine respect, but maybe dressed in a little more careful wording.

It has helped me to communicate with my dBPDh, (in spades) but I don't know if it will work for everyone. I hope a few can benefit from it. 

[Enabler]

Is asking a question in response to a question wrong?

"What's up with you now?"
"What do you think is up with me?"

Then you don't rescue them by either giving them a reason why you are backing off or a lie to allow them to avoid the guilt of the fact they have frightened you. They have to answer their own question.

[Skip]

This has worked for me 100% of the time: "I'm feeling a bit anxious but I'm not sure why. I can't turn my brain off right now. I want to talk to you, but I don't want to trouble you with things I haven't fully formulated within my own head yet. I'd like to sit with you and be near you right now, but maybe we can talk later? I want to express myself the best I can to you, and I need time to think. What do you think about that?"

This is really a good approach to my thinking, BasementDweller. I think as wentworth points out, a lot of the other responses can be invalidating. It really easy to be invalidating.

Invalidation is gas on fire.

When your partner has a disproportionate reaction, or highly emotional reaction, they fell it and want you you to validate it. When the roles are reversed, we want this too. Make sense?

My favorite example is a someone having a road-rage reaction and the partner invalidating them by say cool down.

Now, of course, we don't want to fuel road rage (or any rage), so what do we do?  

Best to listen. And if that doesn't cool things, say you need time to think about what they said. Can we pick this up later. Later would be your best guess on how long the extinction burst needs to return to baseline.

We react the same way. Think about it.

[formflier]

Is asking a question in response to a question wrong?

 

I think it is wrong... .certainly bad manners.  Best to respond directly to a question asked... .vice blow it off... .or ignore it.

After you have addressed their question... .perhaps ok to ask your own.

Make sure to "take the temperature of things" first.  Sometimes questions can turn up the heat.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This has worked for me 100% of the time: "I'm feeling a bit anxious but I'm not sure why. I can't turn my brain off right now. I want to talk to you, but I don't want to trouble you with things I haven't fully formulated within my own head yet. I'd like to sit with you and be near you right now, but maybe we can talk later? I want to express myself the best I can to you, and I need time to think. What do you think about that?"

This is a fabulous strategy! It's taking responsibility for one's own emotions, which models good emotional intelligence. Also it buys time and is a very polite and respectful way to sidestep a dysregulation! Thanks for sharing it! 

[BasementDweller]

Thank you, Skip and CatFamiliar. My version is a bit wordy, I suppose, but a paraphrased or modified version of it would likely work as well.

"I have a lot to sort out in my head right now, and I really want to formulate it so we can talk about it. I'd like to hear your thoughts."

I'm feeling a bit anxious, but I'm not sure how to explain it. Let me think about that, then I really want to share it with you and hear your input."

Any phrases like that are a way of saying "It's not you, it's me." and "I want to include you."

The abandonment fears cause pwBPD to fear exlusion, or feel excluded when that's not what is intended. Because they are very sensitive to rejection, if they feel you have something to say but don't want to tell them, they feel fearful and hurt about that - excluded from your life and thoughts, and like you are hiding something from them.

I did pretty much everything wrong with my dBPDh for the first couple of years of our relationship because I didn't know what I was dealing with. Phrases like "I don't want to talk about it" or "You're overreacting, it's fine"... .while dismissive and not so helpful, generally don't upset non-disordered people who have a thicker skin so much. But they are extremely damaging and triggering to a pwBPD. Once I figured that out, and learned how to properly validate (while still maintaining my own dignity and boundaries) the whole dynamic of my relationship changed. I realized that underneath the harsh and reactive exterior my partner was showing, there was a deeply sensitive man who wanted nothing more than to feel appreciated, understood, and accepted. The same thing we all want, I suppose. When I finally learned how to communicate with him, he told me he felt like a huge weight had been lifted from his shoulders, and that my validation was "what he had always hoped to finally hear." The problem with BPD, is that it renders people really unable to express their deepest needs in a constructive way. When they hurt is when they "lose it" - and they hurt often. Their childish way of getting their needs met alienates the ones they most want to keep around, creating a vicious, and self-fulfilling cycle. It took a while, but I finally learned to stop reacting to the dysregulation and get to the bottom of what he actually wanted, but didn't know how to express in a way that my rational brain could read. It finally clicked, and I learned how to reach him, and not by losing myself. More like improving myself, I suppose.

After telling your partner that you want to formulate your thoughts and share them with them - you may even find that after a bit of time has passed, your partner has forgotten the exchange and doesn't ask again. When they disregulate, they are very much "in the moment" and the intensity of it, but often forget a lot later.

If they do bring it up again later, a good way to say that you have trouble coping when your partner is melting down and you want to address that is to say something like, "I really like it when we communicate with each other in a supportive way... ." (Positive reinforcement, and complimentary, unlike "I don't like it when we argue... ." Same sentiment, but worded extremely differently.

Then follow up by saying something like, "It would be so nice if we could do more of that. What are your thoughts on that? What kind of conversations do you find to be the most constructive?"

I'm careful here not to say "I want more of that" or "We need to do more of that"... .which implies there's not enough of it, or something is lacking, and it makes them feel pressured. The follow-up questions allow the partner to participate and feel included in the goal.

Here is where, if the pwBPD is still diregulated, you might have to endure hearing "I want you to stop attacking me!" Or "You never listen to me!"

And that's where the validation comes in. "I understand you are saying you feel attacked. That has to be a bad feeling. I'd like to work with you on expressing myself in a way that is constructive to the relationship. Can you help me with that?"

You aren't submitting to the accusation, but you are acknowledging their feelings, setting a goal for yourself that is actually a positive thing in ANY relationship, and asking your partner for help, making him or her feel included, and most importanly - needed and appreciated. Making it about improving the relationship (a thing) and not making it personal, chances are they will soften a bit, and try to express their needs constructively. If they are REALLY in a deep internal crisis, they might avoid answering for a while, but it will likely diffuse things greatly, and allow a better conversation to take place later.

[formflier]

I'm actively trying to "recover" from using too many words/over-explaining.  It's a work in progress.

My version of this would be...

"Babe... .I'm trying to think through some things.  It would mean a lot to me if we could come together now and snuggle."

Even that still seems a bit long.  My big parts to that are me owning "thinking, clearly saying what is meaningful and offering to "come together" (showing that we are a couple)

FF

[Skip]

Great discussion!

[Cat Familiar]

Any phrases like that are a way of saying "It's not you, it's me." and "I want to include you."

The abandonment fears cause pwBPD to fear exlusion, or feel excluded when that's not what is intended. Because they are very sensitive to rejection, if they feel you have something to say but don't want to tell them, they feel fearful and hurt about that - excluded from your life and thoughts, and like you are hiding something from them.

The irony is that my husband will often shut down talking about his feelings, saying, "It's not important." However, he will grill me if I don't tell him what I'm thinking. That's not usually a problem, since I can be rather loquacious and I'm not at all averse to sharing my thoughts and feelings. The problem comes when I share too quickly without thinking through carefully how it might impact him. And sometimes I really don't know how I feel because I can see too many sides of a situation--a problem when one sees too many "shades of gray." So buying myself time is a good strategy and your way of doing that is very gracious. 

The problem with BPD, is that it renders people really unable to express their deepest needs in a constructive way. When they hurt is when they "lose it" - and they hurt often. Their childish way of getting their needs met alienates the ones they most want to keep around, creating a vicious, and self-fulfilling cycle. It took a while, but I finally learned to stop reacting to the dysregulation and get to the bottom of what he actually wanted, but didn't know how to express in a way that my rational brain could read. It finally clicked, and I learned how to reach him, and not by losing myself. More like improving myself, I suppose.

This is a really good way to reframe the dysregulation for the non partner. Too often those unkind words have triggered me and made me feel disrespected, so I hadn't been motivated to try and understand the underlying intent. To be able to keep my dignity and not feel like I am appeasing him is a good goal.

After telling your partner that you want to formulate your thoughts and share them with them - you may even find that after a bit of time has passed, your partner has forgotten the exchange and doesn't ask again. When they disregulate, they are very much "in the moment" and the intensity of it, but often forget a lot later.

In the past, I've often been the one to bring up the topic afterwards. The irony is that if I were that upset about something, it would definitely be on my mind later and I'd want to talk it out. With him, he's usually forgotten about it and the times I've brought it up, I've opened up the wound again.

If they do bring it up again later, a good way to say that you have trouble coping when your partner is melting down and you want to address that is to say something like, "I really like it when we communicate with each other in a supportive way... ." (Positive reinforcement, and complimentary, unlike "I don't like it when we argue... ." Same sentiment, but worded extremely differently.

Then follow up by saying something like, "It would be so nice if we could do more of that. What are your thoughts on that? What kind of conversations do you find to be the most constructive?"

I'm careful here not to say "I want more of that" or "We need to do more of that"... .which implies there's not enough of it, or something is lacking, and it makes them feel pressured. The follow-up questions allow the partner to participate and feel included in the goal.

Here is where, if the pwBPD is still diregulated, you might have to endure hearing "I want you to stop attacking me!" Or "You never listen to me!"

And that's where the validation comes in. "I understand you are saying you feel attacked. That has to be a bad feeling. I'd like to work with you on expressing myself in a way that is constructive to the relationship. Can you help me with that?"

You aren't submitting to the accusation, but you are acknowledging their feelings, setting a goal for yourself that is actually a positive thing in ANY relationship, and asking your partner for help, making him or her feel included, and most importanly - needed and appreciated. Making it about improving the relationship (a thing) and not making it personal, chances are they will soften a bit, and try to express their needs constructively. If they are REALLY in a deep internal crisis, they might avoid answering for a while, but it will likely diffuse things greatly, and allow a better conversation to take place later.

This is so helpful and definitely a time for the non to take a deep breath and be very vigilant about not using triggering language. Thanks for a great explanation!

[Skip]

Always wanting to be honest with him, I carefully point out his behaviors that are causing me to recoil. Example: "I'm being quiet bc you seem to be having extreme/disproportionate reactions." This appears to agitate him further and usually elicits a rage response. If I go in the other direction and say that nothing is wrong, then I'm being dishonest and he tells me I'm "pretending" with him which also results in a rage response from him.

Not sure what to do here.

bananas2, you're quiet.

Based on your experience and you husbands constitution, what are your thoughts?

[bananas2]

A lot of good advice here. Thank you all!

Unfortunately, during his times of dysregulation, any mention from me about "loud noises/voices" or any derivative of "high volume" elicits one of two responses from him:
1) "I only screamed bc you made me. That's the only way to get through to you."
2) "I wasn't screaming/getting loud. Stop telling me I'm being loud when I'm not."

So, I think the approach I'm going to try here is the simplest one, and that is to tell him "I'm quiet bc I'm thinking things through. I need time to process. I hope you can be ok with that for now."
He's learned through MC that "time-outs" need to be respected. Because I have lead through example by always respecting his time-outs, he has generally been respectful of mine.

It's important that I remember to come back to the topic at a later date when he comes back to baseline, so that we set a precedent that a time-out is not final, and that it means we will eventually revisit the issue and not eternally leave it unresolved.