Relationship deteriorating rapidly- Pt 1

[Skip]

 

[bananas2]

Thank you for all the great feedback! 

I've spent nearly every day since my last post considering your comments and my own feelings and I've come to the decision that I am going to go to the MC appointment with H.
However, I intend to tell him that my express purpose in attending is to get the T's opinion on our ceasing MC. Therefore, this may or may not be our last session, and I intend to be up front with him about this (in a gentle manner, of course).
I had told H in the car after our last appointment that I no longer wanted to participate in MC, so T's only knowledge of my decision came from a text to her by H. I fully believe that H will be understanding that I want to discuss my decision with her.

The fact that he offered to put it back on the schedule and go without you is huge.  Following through and completing that commitment could help establish a mood of collaboration in his mind (feelings following actions) and it seems like it might be helpful to you.

Give him a ton of positive reinforcement for going to MC alone.

Sadly, I fully realize that his reasoning for going to the session without me is not, as he's said, "to learn new skills for the future." It is, as per usual, to complain about me and for him to play the "victim" role.

[bananas2]

Thanks, Skip. I really, truly needed a "thumbs up" today.

[formflier]

However, I intend to tell him that my express purpose in attending is to get the T's opinion on our ceasing MC. 

Please don't express it this way... in fact... I wouldn't suggest asking "should I quit".

Perhaps "I'm frustrated by apparent lack of progress... .can we discuss a way to move forward so my hubby and I grow closer and learn better relationship skills."

I would follow up by... .

"What are the top one or two skills you think I should work on/improve?"  "How"

"What are the top one or two skills for hubby to work on/improve"  "How".

I can see how a pwBPD could get overwhelmed. 

I'm not suggesting a bunch of skills be taken off the table... .but I am suggesting you focus on only 1 or 2 (for now)

small steps... .so he and you... can have victories.

FF

[Radcliff]

I intend to tell him that my express purpose in attending is to get the T's opinion on our ceasing MC. Therefore, this may or may not be our last session, and I intend to be up front with him about this (in a gentle manner, of course).

I agree with formflier about softening your language, and have quoted a bit more, so that I could say that things that we think we are doing with a gentle manner with our pwBPD is often not perceived by them to be in a gentle manner.  One reason that I'm reacting is that your thinking above is very close to the "lay out the facts" approach that comes naturally to me.  I have not found it to be successful with my wife.  Saying that it "might or might not be the last session" is logically true, but it is a "raise the stakes" comment.  It adds pressure to an already pressurized situation. 

How about saying, "I'm very uneasy about the idea of continuing with MC in this mode that the counselor has suggested, but I've thought about it, and want to hear more about what he/she suggests we do."  That validates your feelings and also doesn't take your hand off the chess piece -- you are not making a long term commitment to MC in the new mode -- but it also tells him you're going without saying anything to raise the stakes.  Just leave it at that.  Less is more.

I have a couple of thoughts on the "coexisting" MC topic.  First, labels are fluid.  You are a logical person with object constancy, so you took the MC at his word.  That news hit you hard.  To a pwBPD, the story changes all the time.  Feelings matter more than facts.  Do you think that "coexisting" label matters to your husband?  Can you let it matter less to you?

Second, think about "coexisting" in a positive light.  If you were to sit and think about what you would like to see improve to help you coexist better, I bet feeling safe and not experiencing rages would be right at the top of the list.  I bet you could fit an awful lot of good stuff in that "coexisting" tent.  In a few weeks, that label may fade in importance and even be forgotten.  Peaceful coexistence is a foundation for any relationship.  It's a good place to start.

Sadly, I fully realize that his reasoning for going to the session without me is not, as he's said, "to learn new skills for the future." It is, as per usual, to complain about me and for him to play the "victim" role.

I see your truth here.  It makes total sense.  But I've read through my reply here a few times, and on about the 4th read, this quote struck me a little differently.  Who is playing the victim role?

As to whether he would do that, sure he could.  A bad scenario would be if you think he could sway or confuse the MC.  A neutral scenario would be if your H blows hot air and the MC lets it just blow by him or her.  But there's a potential positive scenario -- without your presence to make your H uncomfortable or shamed, the MC might lean on him a little bit.  Might guide him towards something constructive.  What's your impression of this MC?  Another plus to your husband going alone at some point is that you could then have a session alone with the MC.  The MC might be able to say things to you that he or she couldn't say in front of your husband.  The MC could validate you more, but might also lean on you some more.  I'm not suggesting that you change your plan for the upcoming session, but it might be worth considering doing a couple of 1:1 sessions, if you trust the MC's ability to see things clearly (which is different from agreeing with you

Hey, have you watched that video yet?  Let us know what you think when you do.  I'll spare you the reiteration of why, but I truly believe that you would find it worthwhile.

WW

[Radcliff]

 
There's one for tomorrow, too  bananas2, you've got this.

WW

[BasementDweller]

How's it going today,bananas2? Sometimes it's a "baby steps, one day at a time" kind of thing. I've had days with my pwBPD where I have just layed low, stayed scarce, kept to myself just to avoid a fight... .and when there were no blow-outs, I considered it a victory. 

It's gotten better lately, and the couples counseling is really helping, but the early days were a lot rougher. Definitely one cautious, "eggshell day" at a time.

[bananas2]

I went to the MC session with H last Wednesday. Our T started off by saying that she had had to spend some time after last session "recovering" from H's "verbal assault." I was taken aback that she was so affected by his mere 15-20 of screaming and cursing. The fact that that seems so minor to me really puts things in perspective. It makes me realize just how much I've willingly tolerated for such a long period of time.

T felt that she needed to address H's screaming before we continued with the session. She proceeded to do a "volume exercise" with him, asking him to demonstrate his speaking volume on a 1-10 scale. By the time he got to "2," she informed him that was already too loud. This angered him, so he got even louder. She then had a very direct talk with him, telling that "the screaming must stop" in the session and at home. He hasn't screamed at me since. However, he has now substituted the screaming with an increase in gaslighting and mocking me. Very similar to years ago when he realized that he couldn't hit me anymore bc of legal repercussions, so he began verbally abusing me through threats and screaming. He's simply exchanging one form of control/abuse for another.

On to the DBT issue... .Long story short, our T felt that H breaking his agreement to participate in DBT was part of his "pattern of disrespect" toward me and that I would have to decide how much disrespect I'm willing to tolerate. So I still have a decision to make as to whether or not to continue with MC. Toward the end of the session, we delved a bit further into the idea of having MC focus only on "peaceful coexistence" rather than improving the marriage per se. As sad as that concept of merely coexisting is to me, I'm leaning toward continuing MC if only just to learn strategies for that. T explained that one of these strategies is for me to remember that I'm a far more verbal person than H is, so if I can restrain myself and be less verbose at times and listen more, this may contribute to calmer discussions with H. I've been working on this for the last couple of days, and it seems to be working a bit.

Sadly, I fully realize that his reasoning for going to the session without me is not, as he's said, "to learn new skills for the future." It is, as per usual, to complain about me and for him to play the "victim" role.

I see your truth here.  It makes total sense.  But I've read through my reply here a few times, and on about the 4th read, this quote struck me a little differently.  Who is playing the victim role?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the "victim role." Can you elaborate?

FF & WW - I did take your suggestions and softened my language with H before the session re: it possibly being our last session. I basically just simplified and stated to him that I wanted to attend the session to get T's feedback and eliminated the part about possibly ceasing MC altogether.

Hey, have you watched that video yet?  Let us know what you think when you do.  I'll spare you the reiteration of why, but I truly believe that you would find it worthwhile.

Yes, I watched it. I felt that it was informative, and possibly very helpful to some members, but I didn't feel it was relevant to my specific situation. It was based on the idea of helping someone who is in complete denial of having any disorder whatsoever. H initially accepted his dx of BPD and is currently in therapy, just not the type of therapy that's needed. He's wavered on his dx, and although he now denies his BPD, he may again at some point swing back to acceptance.

[bananas2]

How's it going today,bananas2? Sometimes it's a "baby steps, one day at a time" kind of thing. I've had days with my pwBPD where I have just layed low, stayed scarce, kept to myself just to avoid a fight... .and when there were no blow-outs, I considered it a victory. 

Thanks for asking.  I'm pretty much in that same place you're referencing - laying low & being less verbal. It seems to help. Hoping I can remain in this place for a while. It's when those pre-menopausal hormones kick in that I get myself in trouble! 

[formflier]

Your husbands behavior responds to boundaries.  That is plainly evident.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm more interested in you understanding there is truth there.  That is the reality in your life.

Make your decisions with that in mind.

I would encourage you to go to next MC.  Ask specifically how you can change your responses to what you "perceive" as mocking (and an increase in that).

As far as victim behavior, I would say/ask this.  If your husband mocks you and you don't like that, do YOU have recourse that does not involve him?

There are limited situations where there truly is no recourse.  I would encourage you to "stand up" for yoruself rather than "take it" as a victim. 

There is a difference in "being victimized" (which clearly you are) and assuming the role of a victim.

I don't specifically remember what my comment was about, but hopefully this gives you some of my thinking.

Good job on MC and GOOD JOB on the verbosity... .um... .let's just say you and I are cut from same cloth.  My current P (and others) often nudge me to use less words.

FF

[bananas2]

Your husbands behavior responds to boundaries.  That is plainly evident.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm more interested in you understanding there is truth there.  That is the reality in your life.
Make your decisions with that in mind.

He will generally respond to boundaries initially, but then gradually taper off until he begins completely disregarding. This pattern is prominent in his promise-keeping as well. He appeared to respect to the boundary I'd set a while back that I will not engage with him for 12 hours following an episode of him screaming (his screaming generally occurred at night, so for most of those 12 hours, he was sleeping and then at work). Our T approved of the boundary. Eventually, H appeared to no longer be affected by the lack of interaction following one of his outbursts, and would continue high-volume rants/rages despite my total lack of interaction with him. Therefore, I'm curious to see if he demonstrates follow-through on the boundary set by our T. If he does, then it may be a matter of him respecting boundaries set by others but not those put in place by me.

There is a difference in "being victimized" (which clearly you are) and assuming the role of a victim.
I don't specifically remember what my comment was about, but hopefully this gives you some of my thinking.

The quote about being a victim was from WW, but I'm intrigued by what you mean about the difference between being victimized and assuming the role. I am aware that I am being victimized, but I've changed my mindset recently in that I now think of myself as "survivor" rather than "victim." Is this what you mean? Creating a shift in how I view myself?

[Enabler]

Heybananas2, have you started to plot the mood? I started doing it last year but have been a bit lax recently, plus the pattern has been a bit more chaotic over Christmas and new year. My W would have 16 days where she was utterly psychotic and 12 days where there were elements of reasonableness. I found it helpful to mentally prepare myself as well as working out when was and wasn’t an okay time to resolve anything.

[formflier]

He will generally respond to boundaries initially, but then gradually taper off until he begins completely disregarding. 

Then... .after that... .I'm more interested in how YOU respect your boundaries.

So... .if your husband doesn't respect you T-approved 12 hour boundary... .I would suspect that he partially rationalized it by realizing that you didn't respect it either.

Boundaries sometimes take effort on the part of the person putting them up... .I can think of no better place for YOU to put your time and energy.

Your message to him, through your words and actions... .12 hours after a scream fest... .you taking care of yourself.

I like the word "thriver"... .better than survivor. 


Thoughts?

FF

[bananas2]

Heybananas2, have you started to plot the mood? I started doing it last year but have been a bit lax recently, plus the pattern has been a bit more chaotic over Christmas and new year. My W would have 16 days where she was utterly psychotic and 12 days where there were elements of reasonableness. I found it helpful to mentally prepare myself as well as working out when was and wasn’t an okay time to resolve anything.

I'm utterly impressed that you are plotting your W's moods and determining when you can have "safe" conversations. Smart! 
Unfortunately for me (and BPDH), I am unable to track my hormone fluctuations. I've had a half-dozen gynecological surgeries (including a partial hysterectomy a few years ago at age 39), so the hormonal bursts come in random waves. I tried hormone replacement therapy, but it literally almost killed me, ending up in ICU with severe pancreatitis. The episodes of anxiety/depression are intense, and no doubt affect how I respond to r/s issues.

[Radcliff]

... .She then had a very direct talk with him, telling that "the screaming must stop" in the session and at home. He hasn't screamed at me since. However, he has now substituted the screaming with an increase in gaslighting and mocking me. Very similar to years ago when he realized that he couldn't hit me anymore bc of legal repercussions, so he began verbally abusing me through threats and screaming. He's simply exchanging one form of control/abuse for another.

I am so sorry to hear this.  It is not uncommon for abuse tactics to shift "underground."

On to the DBT issue... .Long story short, our T felt that H breaking his agreement to participate in DBT was part of his "pattern of disrespect" toward me and that I would have to decide how much disrespect I'm willing to tolerate. So I still have a decision to make as to whether or not to continue with MC. Toward the end of the session, we delved a bit further into the idea of having MC focus only on "peaceful coexistence" rather than improving the marriage per se. As sad as that concept of merely coexisting is to me, I'm leaning toward continuing MC if only just to learn strategies for that.

Sounds like a good plan.

T explained that one of these strategies is for me to remember that I'm a far more verbal person than H is, so if I can restrain myself and be less verbose at times and listen more, this may contribute to calmer discussions with H. I've been working on this for the last couple of days, and it seems to be working a bit.

This seems like a valuable "nugget" of insight.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the "victim role." Can you elaborate?

I suppose that was a failed attempt to be subtle   I was encouraging you to make sure that you were at the center of the drama triangle as well, not leaning towards the victim corner.

In response to my question about the video on getting someone into treatment... .

Yes, I watched it. I felt that it was informative, and possibly very helpful to some members, but I didn't feel it was relevant to my specific situation. It was based on the idea of helping someone who is in complete denial of having any disorder whatsoever. H initially accepted his dx of BPD and is currently in therapy, just not the type of therapy that's needed. He's wavered on his dx, and although he now denies his BPD, he may again at some point swing back to acceptance.

He is now denying that he has BPD, and is denying that he needs DBT.  :)oes that seem to you like it might fit the spirit of what the speaker in the video is talking about -- that a deficiency in executive function (frontal lobe limitations) prevents him from accurately perceiving his situation and that he could benefit from the therapy?

WW

[Radcliff]

bananas2,

OK, don't laugh, but after reading your discussion with formflier about boundaries, I honestly think you'd find the first half of this book helpful:

"Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach," by Howard Glasser and Jennifer Easley

I've been instructed by my T to read it all the way up through the chapter on consequences, in order to help me manage D17. 

There are several things that the authors say that are relevant.  One is not to give a lot of negative energy to bad behaviors.  Difficult children (and adults) crave interaction, and if we give them a ton of negative energy, lectures, etc. we are giving them a big payoff.  Another key thing they say is to give a lot of neutral and positive recognition to the person about what you observe going on in their life.  You are setting up a two-sided tension, and *both* sides are important.  They do something undesirable, and they don't get a lecture or anything, just a consequence.  But if they *don't* misbehave, they receive positive feedback and encouragement.  This gives them something to run towards, and removes the incentive to misbehave.

One of the things the authors talk about is manufacturing successes for the person.  Difficult people behave poorly and get negative attention, which fills their need to get attention, but sadly, it also keeps making them feel like failures until the voice of failure is internalized.  If your husband had a lot of this in his childhood, it is likely operating now.  I am just starting to implement the techniques with D12 and D17.  Here's an example of me taking my first baby steps.  D12's room is a total mess.  Knee deep in clothes, etc.  With a sense of humor I told D12 that I was trying to be more positive, and wanted to find something in her room to compliment her on.  It was a challenge.  But I noticed that her trash bin, while full to the top, was not overflowing.  I said it was a sign of how great she was, and I really appreciated how she had not let her trash bin overflow.

I am absolutely not doing this book justice.  I have no doubt that you could adapt the techniques for a grown man.  As I'm reading it, I'm realizing how many counterproductive things I'd been doing.  The very first step in the process is to look for a dozen or so opportunities per day to make a neutral observation about what's going on with the person.  Something that is factual and irrefutable.  It establishes that you are paying attention to them, and gives them nothing to grab onto to get defensive or be suspicious of a compliment.  Then once you've been doing that for a good amount of time, you slowly start working in praise.  Then boundaries come later.

What do you think?  I hope you're not laughing, because I'm serious

WW

[Enabler]

Ahhhh, very sorrybananas2 for the mix up there... .although I guess the same could apply to you. Knowing when you’re going to be that little bit more sensitive could help you keep a wisemind about how and why you are feeling as you are. Often if can become our normal. I’ve smoked since I was 14, I’ve given up, cut down, done nicotine replacement... .climbed out of the lounge window in the evenings when W was in bed (back door was too noisy). Me in nicotine withdrawal is like being borderline, I’ve even looked up to see if there are any studies on it. For me it’s that marginal amount of emotional sensitivity which makes me more or less reactive to my W, that difference between the split second reactivity that means an arguement or not. I’m wiser to that now and have quit... .still have the nicotine replacement though!

[bananas2]

Recent development... .

Following a discussion last evening with H re: his "pattern of disrespect" that our T brought up during our last MC session, H said he's "had enough" and is divorcing me. I simply told him that I love him and if divorce is what will make him happy, then he should do it. Only three weeks in to the new year, and this is his second divorce threat.

This morning he asked me why I didn't sleep in our bed last night. I was dumbfounded. All I could muster was a confused reply, "You told me last night you're divorcing me, and you want to know why I didn't sleep in our bed?" He then gave an annoyed grunt and left for work.

I'm utterly lost & confused now.

WW - In regards to the book, it sounds perfect. If H decides to stay in the r/s, I'm sure I could apply the techniques. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Radcliff]

Following a discussion last evening with H re: his "pattern of disrespect" that our T brought up during our last MC session, H said he's "had enough" and is divorcing me. I simply told him that I love him and if divorce is what will make him happy, then he should do it. Only three weeks in to the new year, and this is his second divorce threat.

Bravo!  Great response regarding the divorce threat!  Don't give the divorce threat power over you.  If he knows it scares you, he'll use it more.  But you expressed your love, too, probably in a calm confident way, without appearing vulnerable.  Great combo.

Can you tell us a little about what prompted the conversation about the pattern of disrespect?  Did he do something disrespectful that prompted the discussion?

This morning he asked me why I didn't sleep in our bed last night. I was dumbfounded. All I could muster was a confused reply, "You told me last night you're divorcing me, and you want to know why I didn't sleep in our bed?" He then gave an annoyed grunt and left for work.

I am sure there is a smooth, skills-based reply for this situation, but sometimes you have to call it like you see it or risk invalidating yourself.  That sounds confusing and frustrating.

I'm utterly lost & confused now.

WW - In regards to the book, it sounds perfect. If H decides to stay in the r/s, I'm sure I could apply the techniques. Thanks for the suggestion.

I suppose logic doesn't help us as much as we'd hope here, does it?  We know how many divorce threats our pwBPD have uttered before without acting, yet every one hurts and makes us wonder if this one is real.  I do believe that, despite the fact that his need to avoid feeling out of control causes him to do everything possible to make you feel not in control, you have way more power than it feels like.  He needs you.  When he says, "I want to divorce you!" he may really be saying, "I'm worried you will abandon me and I feel out of control!"  so he is trying to regain control by making the threat.  It is certainly hard on you to hear that, though.

[formflier]

I would shy away from saying you love him as part of a divorce threat response.  It could be invalidating.

"that makes me sad and it's not what I want" is a decent response... .perhaps add... I'll have to respect your decision.

FF

[Radcliff]

I would shy away from saying you love him as part of a divorce threat response.  It could be invalidating.

"that makes me sad and it's not what I want" is a decent response... .perhaps add... I'll have to respect your decision.

FF

formflier, can you expand on why it might be invalidating to say "I love you?"  I'm not challenging, I just didn't pick up on that and would likely learn from better understanding your perspective.

My response to these threats always had two components:  1.  Some form of "It's not what I want," "It's not what I'm hoping for," "I hope we can work things out," etc. and 2.  Acknowledging that she is free to do what she wants, "If that is what you truly want, I cannot stop you."  That approach leaves the ownership of the situation with her and does not give any leverage because I'm not expressing fear or chasing her.  For me, acknowledging out loud that she could do it and I couldn't stop her was very important.  I was saying it to myself, telling myself that I can't control her and shouldn't feel responsible (which was liberating for me), and I was saying it to her -- she's fighting for control, and I'm saying "hey, this is not about control for me, that's your prerogative, I'm not standing in your way." -- I was refusing to dance the control dance.

WW

[bananas2]

Don't give the divorce threat power over you.  If he knows it scares you, he'll use it more. 

As much as I know that he will use my fears as ammunition, it deeply upsets me to realize that the one person I should be able to be vulnerable with is the one I can't be. This feels like being treated like an enemy, not a partner.

Can you tell us a little about what prompted the conversation about the pattern of disrespect?  Did he do something disrespectful that prompted the discussion?

Yes, he did something disrespectful on Sunday. He had said he was going out for a couple of hours to visit relatives and that he'd be home fairly early and bring dinner home for us. He came home at 9pm - and without dinner, saying that he'd already eaten with his family. This is when I pointed out that this was disrespectful to me. He deflected by accusing me of trying to interfere with his time with his family.


Last night I asked him to elaborate on the specific reasons why he wants a divorce. He said, "All we do is fight." I asked for examples of what we fight about, and every example he gave was of me being hurt/angry with him about a disrespectful/hurtful behavior of his. I didn't tell him this, but it seems to me that it's not so much the "fighting" he dislikes, but rather that he simply can't tolerate having any consequences for his actions.
Then he hit me with a bombshell: "I just don't love you anymore." I was shocked. He said it calmly and in the absence of anger. He's only ever said this once before, years ago, when he briefly left me and stayed a few days at his ex-wife's house. He had said then, over the phone, that he never loved me and that "This is what I do. I use women and when I'm done with them, I divorce them." Later when we reconciled, he had told me his ex was by the phone coaching him to say that. I believed it bc it sounded like something she would say. Now I'm not sure what to believe. Maybe he did really mean that. After all, this would be his FIFTH divorce and he's only 52.
Anyway, I did my best to remain calm, but his words cut like a knife. I got very emotional and tried to hold back tears, to no avail. I ranted for a bit with a mixture of hurt and anger. Just as he was getting in bed, I got triggered when I noticed the cards he'd given me for our recent anniversary/birthday & Christmas laying out, remembered all the beautiful sentiments he'd written to me (how lucky he is to have me, how much he loves me, etc.) and when he went to bed, I took the three cards and threw them on the bed. Shameful, I know. He told me this morning that he will no longer speak to me bc when I threw the cards, I was "being violent," and he "won't tolerate violence." Ironic coming from a man who once beat me.

So today I'm left feeling hurt, confused, angry, and just generally upset.

Our lease is up in a few months and he said he won't sign it to renew. That doesn't give me enough time to find a place to live and find a roommate or set up in-home care.

Trying to take things one day at a time, but it's hard right now.

[once removed]

reading about the divorce threats, i would not suggest you dont take them seriously, or that hes not taking them seriously, but i hear a threat designed to get you to act. i did that many times with my ex, threatened to leave but hoped she would get the message and change.

have a read of this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

what stage would you say the relationship is in?

[formflier]

This is when I pointed out that this was disrespectful to me. He deflected by accusing me of trying to interfere with his time with his family.

 

So... look at this "big picture"

He blew you off... .you "hit him square with the issue" and he became defensive.

Many "nons" would do the same thing.

Direct assaults (direct confrontations) don't work well with pwBPD. 

I would suggest a flanking maneuver.

he comes home with no dinner...

"Hey babe... did you bring dinner?"

blah blah

"Oh goodness... .I don't understand how this got crossed up... I'm starved want to come with me to grab a bite?  I'm heading out."

So... you have left him to reflect on being an azz... .without telling him he is an azz

Arguments about who is bad and/or worse are the specialties of pwBPD... don't get down and wrestle with them, it won't work.

FF

[formflier]

Can you briefly sketch out what you know about his prior marriages and divorces?

Please confirm the number.

FF

[bananas2]

reading about the divorce threats, i would not suggest you dont take them seriously, or that hes not taking them seriously, but i hear a threat designed to get you to act. i did that many times with my ex, threatened to leave but hoped she would get the message and change.

have a read of this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

what stage would you say the relationship is in?

Thank you for the link, OnceRemoved. In the past, I've taken H's threats with a grain of salt, as he usually recants. This time is different bc he's added "I don't love you anymore." Despite all else, "love" has always been a constant in our r/s. Removing that creates an entirely different scenario. I read through the link and determined that we are most likely at Stage 4.

[Radcliff]

I am so sorry to hear of the latest developments.  Hearing that you are not loved must have been terribly difficult and saddening (I'm sorry, I know those words don't do it justice, it must be awful, especially given that the love has not been threatened before).

As you know, our pwBPD need to find ways to "up the ante" when old threats are not effective at getting the response they are looking for.  This may be one of those times.

I'll give you some time to respond to formflier's questions before posing any of my own.  I know this is so tough to cope with, but we will stick with you on this.  You are not alone.   

WW

[bananas2]

Can you briefly sketch out what you know about his prior marriages and divorces?

Please confirm the number.

Fairly early on, when we were first dating but not in a committed r/s, H volunteered to me that he'd been married 3 times. I didn't put much thought into in bc I had no intention at the time of entering into a long-term r/s with anyone. Later when I fell in love with him and we became exclusive, I asked for more detail about the marriages and this is what he told me... .

1st wife: They were both 21 and she had a 2 year old from a previous r/s. Just before they got married, H wanted to back out, but then found out she was pregnant, so went ahead with the wedding. The minute he got deployed overseas, she divorced him, telling him she'd only married him to have another child & get financial support. When the alimony ran out, she married someone else and did the same thing. Since she is the mother of his D30, I've met her a few times and can confirm H's story.
2nd wife: 14+ year marriage. Divorced amicably due to irreconcilable differences. I can confirm H's version of this as well.
3rd wife: The rebound. Married only 2-3 years. H says he divorced her bc she "treated him like a meal ticket for her and her kids." He despises her to this day. I've never spoken to her and therefore can't confirm anything about the r/s.

Although I thought 3 marriages was an excessive #, it made sense to me. Married young due to pregnancy, then a fairly long & seemingly "healthy" marriage, followed by the mistake of marrying the rebound. I was ok with it.

A few weeks before we applied for our marriage license, and most likely due to the fact that the number of prior marriages would be indicated on the license, he told me he'd actually been married 4 times, not 3. There was a quick 1 year marriage to someone he met while in the Army (between wife #1 & #2). He said it ended bc she "took all his money and left." I have no way of knowing if this is true. I was upset that he hadn't been forthcoming about this earlier. Red flag.  But blinded by love, I went ahead with the wedding.
Side Note: I asked H if the woman from the 1-year marriage had any children before they married. He told me she didn't. Just a few months ago, H slipped up in MC and mentioned something about his 2 former stepchildren with this woman. He had been lying to me for 4 years that she had no children. Not that it matters now, but why lie about something like that?

So in summary, he's had 4 divorces. I will be #5.

I apologize I wasn't able to keep my reply more brief, as it's a pretty complicated story.

[formflier]

  He had been lying to me for 4 years that she had no children. Not that it matters now, but why lie about something like that?

So in summary, he's had 4 divorces. I will be #5.
 

I'm curious... .does it matter now?  Does it matter to you?

Does he think it matters now?

How was this addressed in MC?  Has it been addressed in MC?

I'll wait on these answers before sharing anymore thoughts.

FF

[once removed]

hows it going today and yesterday?

whats the situation like? has it changed?