Open Discussion on a 31yr old Girl I'm seeing

[Subaru02]

Detecting and putting a name on this type of behavior is new to me. Although I realize many people can exhibit traits of BPD or other similar PD without being diagnosed OR without being a fully "BPD". I also realize some can be much more functional than others. This commnity has opened my eyes in my past breakup which happened approximately 8 months ago to which I consider myself 80% recovered from. I'm back in the dating game since the past 2-3 months and have encountered interesting women but this particular one leaves me interested and I want to discuss her as it may also be informative to others.

I'm 28, not really looking for anything "serious"  right now so her not being relationship material isn't really a problem, I'm just mostly interested in understanding some of her behavior or atleast putting a label on it and learn to react to it in the most effective way.

To the point : I met this 31 year old woman who's had kids with two different fathers in the last 10 years (9 year old girl, 2 year old boy). Her love stories always seem a little dramatic when she talks about them. Between her "serious" relationships she's been the type of girl to get quickly attached to different guys very quickly I've seen her do it first hand and here's the story, I just want to confirm whether my eyeball of her behaviour is right about being very BPDish :

So we started seeing each other and she did what I consider to be "love bombing" very rapidly. Within days I was the most amazing guy ever, she kept mentioning on our first dates how she had no idea how a good looking and smart guy like me was still single also sort of exposing she didn't feel she was worthy of me in different indirect ways. After 2-3 dates she was already calling me "baby" (she calls everyone baby in her life that can be confusing) and was very needy and constantly texting / calling and trying to setup our next date. She'd invite herself to sleep over a couple days in a row to which I agreed occasionally. I purposely did not reciprocate her demonstrations of neediness and tried to keep her within limits of what I consider normal and she wasn't used to that. I wasn't letting her decide and dictate when we would see each other and she started to feel off balance, she admitted to never meeting a guy that holds his ground and doesn't bend over backwards for her whenever she calls for it. This was turning her on but also making her behavior erratic. She tried to make me jealous by stating she had other guys chasing her, to which I just laughed off. She tried the "Ignoring game" for a couple of days and then would come back sort of "pissed" that she had to do all the work and that I wasn't chasing her. She then asked ":)oesn't it bother you that I could replace you?" ":)on't you miss me?" I said, "We hardly know each other, I'm can't make you stay, if going after your other options makes you happy I wouldn't want to stop you from being happy" she took this with a negative approach and interpreted that as me telling her we were done. I let her do what she wanted its not like we were any sort of relationship after 2-3 dates.

A week later, I accidentally bumped into her at the bar, she was indeed with another candidate. Lo and Behold, when he left, she came over to my table telling me he was the new guy and that it really made her sad that I didn't try to keep her and just let her go. He realized she was still into me and it made HIM jealous they had a fight about me. She told me about the pain she felt when I "walked out" and that itmade her feel like she needed to fall back to her other options. I told her that it was sad that a grown woman like her couldn't manage her relationships in a more mature way and just state what she wants instead of trying to make me jealous to try and manipulate me. She said "you dumped me I didn't leave" so she really sees it in a completely other way.

Anyways, new chump turned out to be interested only in getting a short lived piece of ass with her (Can I blame him she's hot but a bit crazy), since he felt she was more into me than into him because she talked to him about me he just blocked her and basically dumped her coldly... .She started hitting me up again within a few days and admitted all this to me. We went for drinks and she started "love bombing" me again wanting to spend all her time with me, saying she was lucky to have a chance to spend time with me after how badly she behaved saying she was in a hard pass in her life emotionally and she admitted to her mistakes. Then BOOM again all her "manifestations of over interest and over neediness" vanished again within the past 48 hours after our last evening having drinks and chatting. For the past days I get short responses with several hours elapse between.

Said 2 days ago : "I don't want you to dump me again, my behavior was wrong and I want to spend time with you and see where this will go"...

I'm not looking for a relationship with this girl, but to understand and get insight because I do notice that her behavior does leave me curious as to whether this would be a typical case of BPD. She's very impulsive, can love bomb me for days tell me how happy she is around me and how good I make her feel and then vanish and stop giving signs of life for days. Would some of you mind sharing similar experiences and how you deal with these people. I consider her a good time, but not relationship material but would like to know how to perfect my approach with this type of girl.

Thanks to all

[NGU]

Would some of you mind sharing similar experiences and how you deal with these people.

Hi Subaru.

Similar experiences.
A few times, the logical side of my brain sent out a red flag to the caveman side, warning of manipulation. But the woman you're referencing has additional traits, and I've never specifically run into this exact combo. That's why a forum like this is helpful. Hive mind.

How I dealt with these types of people.
Well, that depends on whether I should talk about the 28-year-old me, or the current me. The 28-year-old me would have mentally acknowledged the red flag and probably rolled with it, to see where it would go. At most, when she admitted her behavior was wrong, I would have used that time to casually mention that I'm not a fan of being played with.

But now I have the unfortunate task of introducing you to the Current Me. The last girl I dated (before I met my wife) had some traits similar to what you're describing. She came over for dinner and to hang out one night. In the middle of our evening, she out-of-the-blue practically shut down to spend her time texting. Turns out she was looking for anything better to do that night. After I confirmed that I wasn't reading the situation wrong, and that a human being was indeed being that rude, I made her leave. If you can see the phrase "kicked her out" without thinking of the physical-type kicking, yeah, I kicked her out of my house.

Not sure if any of that helps. Keep us posted.

-ngu


 

[juju2]

you are being observant and controlled.

My experience w BPD, they want to know how far they can push you.  it's like they want to have all the control, and they want to be secure in pushing my boundaries... .its like I get rewards from him, if he can push me beyond what I would allow from anyone else... .

It takes a very strong emotionally adept human being, someone up on ALL the tools here, they say here, you have to be like a violin player, to deal w BPD.  The hardest thing for me, was to know if i was interacting w the illness, a serious mental illness, or am I dealing w the core person, whom I love dearly?

I also have to keep my own life, keep great self care, and be detached.  It sounds like you have that covered.

I also need a trusted friend who doesn't judge or give advice, to unburden.and i need to check in w myself, my attitude, daily, hourly, if need be.

When my attitude tanks, I become someone I don't know.  That leads me to bad thinking, and then bad behaviour on my part.  Stuff I don't want.

You are in the right place.

This is a strong community.

juju

[Subaru02]

Thanks for your responses,

I will admit that I'm not 100% sure I understood everything you are referencing but atleast I've been able to conclude you both agree that this person does exhibit traits of BPD and other types quite clearly.

I agree part of me wants to see where this will go.

Recently this is how things have unfolded : After sleeping over twice (Monday, Tuesday) with no sex just cuddling. She mentioned how safe and comfortable I made her feel. I didn't reply but it still feels good to hear that stuff whether it be manipulation or not, who is to know when things are really felt I have a hard time believing everything they do and say is all disordered, there has to be a part of their identity that is truthful... I hope so.

So thats when the "see-saw" starts, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday hardly a peep from her, no news. So I decide to out myself first and just shake her up with a reminder of all the nice things she said on Tuesday when she was over. It worked, she started wondering why I brought that up. I told her I wasn't a fan of inconsistent people, I didn't like to feel someone behaves one way and then another the next day. I told her that even though we aren't officially a relationship, there are baseline rules that apply for me and they are "integrity, honesty, respect and besides that just having a good time together" she agreed and invited me to dinner Sunday night (tonight) at her place.

She admitted that she knows she gets quickly attached, specially when she meets someone like me that shows all the things she's attracted to (physically, mentally etc) I said fine, I also tend to be that way I can understand your fear but I said stop letting your ego and emotional defenses govern all your decisions. All this is doing is causing a bunch of misunderstandings and you begin to resent me for not talking to YOU when you are the one not talking to me to protect yourself from being hurt.

So basically, where I'm at right now: I know I'm leaving in June for a couple months for work, she knows that too and the way I presented the situation to myself and am slowly introducing to her is : If we enjoy each other's company why ruin that on the excuse of fearing the pain it may cause, some pains are worth navigating for the experience. I guess its a risk I'm ready to take.

She doesn't fit my classic type at all, I don't like the fact that she's drunk half the week out at the bar, I don't like some of the impulsive decisions she takes, but then I realize I could easily be in her position had I not learned to have much better self control in my life.

I think there may be something to learn here, just so long as I can keep myself invested at a level where both parties have fun and that she doesn't suck me into her crazy world.

I have the feeling she's been waiting for someone to give her guidance, I fear the consequences on her losing me eventually may be worth considering. Sort of like "Protect her from herself" in a way. We'll see after a couple dates how things go atleast I can gradually wrap my head around my own gut feeling. Still soon to say.

Thanks all will post if some of you are interested in following this.

[Subaru02]

It seems her erratic behavior is her adaptation to her own suffering of being so deeply attached quickly. My observation is that as soon as I push a little she panicks, her panick is expressed by a sudden "no contact" to which she believes is what will pull me back in but as I hold my ground longer than she is used to with men in her life in the past, she beings to resent me during this no contact period basically blaming me for not chasing her.

She's like an open book when I get to open her back up and make her feel good again she tells me how she felt during that period and I get to learn more about her her brain works.

I think I'm a little crazy for wanting to understand these people. There's a part of me that will always believe they are loveable but to our own expense, does that make sense?

[Lady Itone]

I think I'm a little crazy for wanting to understand these people. There's a part of me that will always believe they are loveable but to our own expense, does that make sense?

Problem is all this fascination and challenge leads to obsession on our parts, especially if the pwBPD has some great qualities, which I'm sure many do.

I started off detached and noted the red flags but thought I could handle it. Then one day I was in it. Be warned detaching from a pw BPD is a beast.

[Subaru02]

Problem is all this fascination and challenge leads to obsession on our parts, especially if the pwBPD has some great qualities, which I'm sure many do.

I started off detached and noted the red flags but thought I could handle it. Then one day I was in it. Be warned detaching from a pw BPD is a beast.

I completely understand this and I agree with you. They are the hardest to handle, and then how stupid is the counterintuitive fact that they are the hardest to get over even though all the reasons are there to move on.

I think this is a test of my patience, she cancelled dinner 20 minutes ago. It went a little like this ;

Her : Are you still up for dinner ?
Me : I said yes yesterday, don't usually change my mind that often
**5-10 minutes later
Her : Wow I forgot I had promised to have dinner with my mom... .I'm such an idiot... we can have dinner tomorrow?

I purposely let her reflect on what she was doing and went and had a shower without answering right away. During the 10minutes I was away from my phone :

Her: I'm trying to deal with my mom to have dinner tomorrow instead is that ok?
Her : Ok baby?
Her : Should I Go out and go get groceries for dinner or not ** (basically making it my decision at this point when she's the one who's been flipping back and forth)

INCOMING CALL, I didn't answer I was pissed it felt likeshe was playing games again, its hard to know when its true or when its all a bunch of BS.

Her : Fine don't answer me, I'll go have dinner with my mom
Me : Wow, only took  a 10minute break from my phone while I was having a shower and all this happened? Now what?
Her : Well you didn't answer I'm having dinner with my mom now.

Me : Lol, fine you have a good evening
Her : (She went out last night) I hate when my mom sees me after a night out at the bar (Oh ok cuz it would be ok for me to see you that way?)
Me : This is ridiculous
Her : What is?

Now this dinner was planned atleast 24-36 hours ago, it was reiterated somewhere at 11h AM this morning when I said "Will you be ok for our dinner tonight since you look hungover?" She confirmed she'd rest and be fine for our dinner. I didn't run after her all day, all this started towards 3h30 PM.

In the end? Another cancelled plan that she gets away by either absolving herself of guilt by some outside factor that she couldn't control OR making it my fault because I didn't answer when it was all her idea in the first place. I'm beginning to see a pattern in her behaviour. If I would act on my impulse I would just tell her "Why don't we just stop all this, I'm looking for someone who's words match their actions, if you really wanted dinner tonight you wouldn't have changed your mind just because I didn't answer within the 5 minute mark, thats BS"

In the end what have I to gain to state the obvious.

In summary so far : Monday & Tuesday : Pure love bombing, full on attraction, sleeps over, wonders why such a good looking and smart guy like me is single, Admires my ability to give her another chance, admits to her faults apologizes and wants to make up for it. Goes very limited contact with me wednesday to friday, and then I force a discussion out of her where she admits to being afraid of getting hurt so she's careful... so there we were going off on a fresh base again I Thought. Here we are again.

Honestly, I think I've satisfied my curiosity and it may be time to walk away and at this point I will walk away knowing I actually had tangible proof of what I could have gotten myself into.

Thanks for those reading and responding, appreciated.

[PeteWitsend]

I guess I'd be kinda curious as to how her prior relationships (the ones that produced kids) ended.  Whatever happened in those cases as the relationship changed from "dating and fun" to "adult responsibility" would probably be similar to what you'd go through if you committed to her.

One other question: who takes care of her kids when she's staying with you?  it sounds like she's not a very devoted mother.  Are the other father's around?  joint custody?  are they paying child support? 

I'd echo Lady Itone's comments about being careful... .you need to recognize you're dealing with a "volatile substance" so to speak.  You could easily end up burned here. 

[MyBPD_friend]

Wow - Subaru.

I read your story while on business in the Netherands. Your story sounds so familiar and almost identical with my story.

Me and my 'friend' were not intimate, but we also had a dinner date last May for a talk and she also cancelled an hour before, the date was set by her and 5 days ahead.

I had a business trip from Thursday to Sunday last weekend. On Thursday I've texted my friend at 5 pm that I'll be in town Friday and Saturday and would like to meet her for something to eat or anything else.
As very typical for her, she didn't reply. Then, two days later at 6 pm on Saturday she replied:
"Hey... ., sorry for the late response. I'm in ... .(other city) since last night. Maybe you can text me a few days ealier next time. Thanks and have a good time".

I responded to that: "Ok. I'm in Almelo with new friends. I was worried you would step back if I texted earlier."

Those people with BPD have hard times making commitments or plans well ahead of time. Their mind will be going crazy around a meeting constantly until their anxiety will be too big of a problem.

Anyway, I wasn't sure after two days of no answer and deleted her number again on my phone, minutes before I got that late response.

I don't think I will or can stay in that strange and difficult r/s/friendship with her.
I never know what to expect from her. I've texted her seven weeks ago for a meeting on short notice and she called me within 5 minutes to make sure she'll respond. She explained that she was out of country to see her younger sister who had a baby.

Communication was a big issue in a letter that I wrote to her 9 weeks ago, she wanted to respond to that letter but never did.

What those people, especially women with BPD is, they try to keep you in cycles, just as close so you won't walk away forever, but not as close as it would be something to expect from a good friendship. I think it's a game, we all know it's called push and pull.

[Subaru02]

I guess I'd be kinda curious as to how her prior relationships (the ones that produced kids) ended.  Whatever happened in those cases as the relationship changed from "dating and fun" to "adult responsibility" would probably be similar to what you'd go through if you committed to her.

One other question: who takes care of her kids when she's staying with you?  it sounds like she's not a very devoted mother.  Are the other father's around?  joint custody?  are they paying child support? 

I'd echo Lady Itone's comments about being careful... .you need to recognize you're dealing with a "volatile substance" so to speak.  You could easily end up burned here. 

Hi Pete thanks for your response!

She's 31 now, she had her first daughter at 21 (daughter is now 10) and lives about 7-8 hours away. She rarely sees her and the original father has custody since the beginning, he also has a new girlfriend for the past years and she is basically acting as a step mom. The daughter is probably quite used to not seeing her mother. She's expressed how it hurts when she has a phone call with her daughter and feel how her she seems quite detached from her, being so young she probably adapted without her over the years, that makes sense.

She had a relationship that lasted 4 years with another guy (26-30 yrs old) approx. she became pregnate and told him the "I'm having this child" story. So again it wasn't a child that was planned. The boy is now 2 years old. They share him half the week on a varying schedule of 3 - 2 - 2 - 3. I agree she does spend some time with the kid but isn't a very serious mother. She works nights in bars and even if she has "his care" on those days she ends up having a babysitter take care of him.

Lately she's been saying how she needs to drink less and go out less and save up her money. Those words hardly lasted 24 hours that she was drunk the next day texting me "I'm drunk". I said didn't you say you'd stop drinking for a bit and take a relaxing week with your son? She said "Yeah but some friends came over and my son was asleep anyway... ." wow.

Anyway, needless to say the days after that she was drunk all the way through the weekend, she cancelled dinner and didn't even make an effort to make it up or see me yet since then.

So in essence, I think this whole story will dissolve itself. I'm just a bit disappointed and upset, I gave her a lot of chances to own up to her words but in the end you have to look at the actions and whether they should be taken personally or not I don't think so but the result is that she's not very reliable, and she obviously doesn't care enough about me to prove me wrong.

I do notice that I have a tendancy to want to get to the bottom of her behaviour. How she can Love bomb me for 2-3 days in a row and then start acting like nothing ever happened. Sleeping over, feeling good with me, blowing up my phone and then disappearing again... .

[Subaru02]

As very typical for her, she didn't reply. Then, two days later at 6 pm on Saturday she replied:
"Hey... ., sorry for the late response. I'm in ... .(other city) since last night. Maybe you can text me a few days ealier next time. Thanks and have a good time".

Those people with BPD have hard times making commitments or plans well ahead of time. Their mind will be going crazy around a meeting constantly until their anxiety will be too big of a problem.

Anyway, I wasn't sure after two days of no answer and deleted her number again on my phone, minutes after that I got that late response.

I don't think I will or can stay in that strange and difficult r/s/friendship with her.
i never know what to expect from her. I've texted her seven weeks months ago for a meeting on short notice and she called me within 5 minutes to make sure she'll respond.

Communication was a big issue in a letter that I wrote to her 9 weeks ago, she wanted to respond to that letter but never did.

What those people, especially women with BPD is, they try to keep you in cycles, just as close so you won't walk away forever, but not as close as it would be something to expect from a good friendship. I think it's a game, we all know it's called push and pull.

Feel you dude I spend my time deleting her number and since we weren't serious and had just seen each other 5-6 times it wasn't like I could "break up" so I'd just go with the flow I'd let her know her behaviour wasn't respectful in a brief way and she'd feel bad and then offer we meet up or have dinner so she can make up for it because all these "life events" prevent her from being her best her lately... .

Everytime I expect our "arrangement" to dissolve she sends an upbeat message about how she wants to go have drinks. Basically completely acting like nothing happened and so it has me wonder. Does she realize how crappy her behaviour is (cancelling plans, going from needy to disappearing within days) and it amuses her to see me confused OR is she completely disordered and this is juts the way she operates with everyone in general?

I don't care to keep a relationship like that in my life, but it seems I needed to see enough repeatability to know its not only an isolated case. Since situations like these keep coming up I'm guessing it would always be the same with her.

She's very good looking, she likes dining out and good food, she's very fashionable in her looks, if you want a killer night out at the bar she'll be fun she likes to get hammered, she likes to be all over you in public and go back to your place or her place, but outside the night life it seems theres nothing really substantial to which I could really rely on. She's got a weak spot for a guy being rough with her in bed but I don't really enjoy that stuff she likes to be completely dominated... .

After cancelling last nights plans she just said "lets have dinner tomorrow instead?" I just said "... .this is ridiculous" and she said "What is?" and I don't plan on responding.

I have a hard time understanding how basic ethics and common sense need to be explained to her. If I'm into a girl like she says she's into me, I'd make sure my words fit with my actions and I wouldn't play games.

[PeteWitsend]

subaru - not trying to be flippant with you here, but honestly if your motivation for hanging around and continuing to engage with her is mere curiousity about BPD and its causes and effects... .get a book and READ about it.

Your approach sounds like deciding to learn about landmines by walking through a minefield.

My 0.02 on the condition- From what I've read, and what I've observed (married to a "high-functioning" uBPDw for several years), a lot of the behavior and lack of accountability stems from unresolved childhood issues related to being abandoned by either (or both) parents, for any duration of time, but particularly in early childhood, when a person is most vulnerable and impressionable.  Other issues that create an unstable childhood home are often present (parental substance abuse, infidelity, etc.).  

In such an environment, pwBPD develop unstable strategies to cope.  Not their fault completely; that's just what happens when kids are basically left to their own devices, with no adult role models or guidance.  and on the other hand, they fail to develop mature emotions, like personal accountability, patience, honesty, etc.  all of which can be a hindrance growing up in a unstable home or hostile environment.  I've also noticed an inability to cope with adversity - no matter how minor - like an adult would.

 It seems they often see other people more as a means to an end, and simply bounce from person to person until they get what they want.  and anyone who doesn't immediately fulfill their demands is "bad" and anyone who does is "good" and that pattern of behavior never really changes, even if the extremes might moderate over time.  

Often there are other excesses in their personalities; I guess I consider myself fortunate that - since we've been in a committed relationship - my wife has never gotten physically abusive or engaged in wanton, impulsive behavior like heavy drinking, drug use, or cheating.  

it sounds like those would all be present in your lady's case, even if you committed.  she's never let go of the bottle, and can't separate herself from her drinking buddies.  I would assume that will never change as long as she works in the bar industry.

[PeteWitsend]

I'd also add, in response to this question you posed:

Does she realize how crappy her behavior is... .

You're asking the wrong question.  Regardless of whether she does or doesn't, she won't admit it, apologize, or take personal accountability for her actions.

 pwBPD struggle with this because to their black/white way of thinking everyone is either good or bad with no in between.  If they admit they were wrong, then they are "all bad" which is something they can't bring themselves to admit, so all of the responsibility for their behavior must be directed at someone else.

maybe, MAYBE when you decide you're done with the roller coaster and make up your mind to walk away, she'll see the light and come running, admit she's wrong, start with the love-bombing, and apologies. 

but you should immediately notice the weasel words and hedging as soon as she sees you step back from the exit:

"I only forgot our plans one time, geez YOU get so emotional."

"I didn't know YOU expected to go out that night.  YOU sounded uncommitted."

"I didn't feel (feel!) YOU wanted to spend time with me, so I made other plans."

Fascinating stuff, eh?  It gets even more fascinating when you're married

(sorry, I couldn't help myself)

[MyBPD_friend]

subaru - not trying to be flippant with you here, but honestly if your motivation for hanging around and continuing to engage with her is mere curiousity about BPD and its causes and effects... .get a book and READ about it.

Your approach sounds like deciding to learn about landmines by walking through a minefield.

My 0.02 on the condition- From what I've read, and what I've observed (married to a "high-functioning" uBPDw for several years), a lot of the behavior and lack of accountability stems from unresolved childhood issues related to being abandoned by either (or both) parents, for any duration of time, but particularly in early childhood, when a person is most vulnerable and impressionable.  Other issues that create an unstable childhood home are often present (parental substance abuse, infidelity, etc.).  

In such an environment, pwBPD develop unstable strategies to cope.  Not their fault completely; that's just what happens when kids are basically left to their own devices, with no adult role models or guidance.  and on the other hand, they fail to develop mature emotions, like personal accountability, patience, honesty, etc.  all of which can be a hindrance growing up in a unstable home or hostile environment.  I've also noticed an inability to cope with adversity - no matter how minor - like an adult would.

 It seems they often see other people more as a means to an end, and simply bounce from person to person until they get what they want.  and anyone who doesn't immediately fulfill their demands is "bad" and anyone who does is "good" and that pattern of behavior never really changes, even if the extremes might moderate over time.  

Often there are other excesses in their personalities; I guess I consider myself fortunate that - since we've been in a committed relationship - my wife has never gotten physically abusive or engaged in wanton, impulsive behavior like heavy drinking, drug use, or cheating.  

it sounds like those would all be present in your lady's case, even if you committed.  she's never let go of the bottle, and can't separate herself from her drinking buddies.  I would assume that will never change as long as she works in the bar industry.

PeteWitsend,

You probably have a lot more knowledge and experience in the BPD field than I want or would want to get into.
My BPD friend has everything and more than you mentioned above.

• abandonned at age 8
  send away to a foreign country without the parents to escape war in Serbia
  abandonnef from her younger sister
  war trauma
  other traumas, probably sexual abuse at age 15
  abortion at age 17
  miscarrige at age 31
  too much drinking andparty - despite her long time bf
  driving wehen drunk an losing the driver license
  kissing unknown guys or strangers
  giving no contact
  giving silent treatment
  red flags in behaviour towards other people, men and women
  totally unreliable
  probably lying a lot
  that list could go on

I want to wait now if anything is coming the next weeks.
I plan to get a new mobile phone contact and a new number along with it to get this over with.

[Subaru02]

... .

maybe, MAYBE when you decide you're done with the roller coaster and make up your mind to walk away, she'll see the light and come running, admit she's wrong, start with the love-bombing, and apologies. 

but you should immediately notice the weasel words and hedging as soon as she sees you step back from the exit:

"I only forgot our plans one time, geez YOU get so emotional."

"I didn't know YOU expected to go out that night.  YOU sounded uncommitted."

"I didn't feel (feel!) YOU wanted to spend time with me, so I made other plans."

Fascinating stuff, eh?  It gets even more fascinating when you're married

(sorry, I couldn't help myself)

There you go, she's already came up with a couple of those already. Sort of excuses that blame "ME" for her ___ty decisions.

Her going to see another guy - My fault "I didn't show enough interest and when she said she had other dudes after her I didn't try to keep her I let her go".

Her cancelling dinner  - Had I picked up the phone when she wanted to confirm dinner (when I had already confirmed it twice before) it was now MY fault that she "had" to go have dinner with her mom since I didn't pickup when SHE called.

Now, her coming back when she "sees the light" yup she's already done it when she feels I'm disengaging, but this time she's less and less needy, I wouldn't be surprised she has someone else maybe last night's dinner was with another guy who knows.

Such behaviour is so frustrating I am ready to walk away, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it here because even if I am detached it still has a frustrating and disappointing outcome that could interest other users.

[PeteWitsend]

one more post, I feel duty bound to provide, in response to this:

... .
She doesn't fit my classic type at all, I don't like the fact that she's drunk half the week out at the bar, I don't like some of the impulsive decisions she takes, but then I realize I could easily be in her position had I not learned to have much better self control in my life.

... .

You learned to be an adult; she didn't.  if - for whatever reason - she still hasn't by age 31, what makes you think she's willing or ready to now?

She's had 31 years to establish these habits and actions.  and to her way of thinking, they've "worked" for her: she's still alive and enjoying herself.  you think you're going to change 31 years of someone's life experience by having a conversation?  Are you prepared to invest 31 years of your life in that, because it may take that long!

I actually thought a lot of the same things; my wife is from another country.  she grew up in a troubled situation, but is intelligent, did well in school, and got scholarships to college and grad school.  she later came to the US for additional grad school and decided she wanted to stay.  when we met, she was in a bad situation, entirely of her own doing (in debt to her friends, partying and living WAY beyond her means, about to flunk her professional exams, and living in a bad environment with a lot of sleazy, manipulative people). 

When we started dating, my mind would often be blown by how demanding she could be, how needy should could be, and how dismissive she could be if I failed to meet any of her demands or expectations, no matter how much I had just done for her.

I made excuses for her behavior:

"It's just her situation."

"If I can show her I'm committed, it will get better."

"Once she has more stability in her life, things will calm down."

"Once we're married, she'll have the stability she needs."

You know what?  it never stopped. 

have the feeling she's been waiting for someone to give her guidance, I fear the consequences on her losing me eventually may be worth considering. Sort of like "Protect her from herself" in a way. We'll see after a couple dates how things go atleast I can gradually wrap my head around my own gut feeling. Still soon to say.

She has not been waiting for guidance.  She's waiting for someone else to come along and fill her needs, as she sees them. 

I've seen other people here refer to their pwBPD as a "bottomless hole" and I think that's apt.  You're not going to change a BPD person, you're just there filling the hole.  if you stop, they'll throw a fit.  they may even try to find someone new to start filing. 

If that works for you, there are probably questions about your own situation you need to resolve. 

I struggled with this as well, and had to see a therapist for a while to understand what was happening and how I should cope.

I actually think, to some extent, This board is generally more helpful than that, since the people here have lived through this in a way that few therapists have. 

[Subaru02]

Pete,

Your responses feel very heartfelt, you seem to have been through a lot, most of us have on a forum like this.

My last girlfriend and her sisters definitely exhibited traits, one of them was officially diagnosed with BPD, the other younger one can't be alone for 5 minutes without a guy in her life she needs the validation constantly and they ALL cannot take responsibility for their actions at all its crazy to watch teenage girls manipulate their parents to all ends. You'd wonder how they can all be this way with such "nice parents" but when you dig deep you notice how they enable their behaviour. You realize how they are not helping them by giving them what they want, they are feeding the problem and they sit there pulling their hair out wondering what happened to have such monsters. When you watch them in the real world they can't deal with adversity, they can't negotiate what they want in life they're used to getting it with minimal effort. Any resistance is unfair. They can't take orders from their boss and any pressure or obligation to speed up their efforts is seen as "too demanding" and a "mean boss"...

It was the same in our relationship but over 4 years it crept up slowly. It sends shivers down my spine to realize that our relationship started with love bombing on her part and a huge fear of abandonment as she felt unworthy to be my girlfriend. In the end when she was 100% comfortable with being herself around me I wasn't happy in the relationship and I wasn't making her feel the way she imagined she should with me. She started keeping an eye open, I wasn't the type to have trust issues so I never question or snoop. She ended up leaving the relationship and going for another loser, he dumped her within 4 weeks, and she came back while my wounds were still gaping holes. It was too soon, too easy and it stroked my ego to have her back when she had "seen the light" as you said. We lasted another year her behaviour was top notch in the first months then we started fighting as she became comfortable with coming short of her promises like before. I disengaged and became disinterested. She find another guy who she is with now. Everytime she left, she blamed it all on me, I'm the bad guy and I caused all this by my mistakes. She is now "much happier with the new guy" and claims I never did anything for her when I put up with a load of crap I should never have.

Then I found out about BPD, I posted here, read about it in several places and realized that I wasn't crazy to know something was off about her behaviour. I'm not 100% sure its "pure BPD" but too many traits that she exhibits point to that broad direction. She was someone hard to manage, I don't think that many guys would have put up with it. Which is why I'm surprised she's already been with the new go for 5-6 months (which is still quite short in my opinion?) compared to my 4 years with her.

-------

Back to the girl I'm "seeing" now. Haven't seen her since last tuesday. After last night's cancelled plans that ended up with "me being the reason for them being cancelled since I didn't pickup when she called to confirm". As I stated I told her it was ridiculous and left her hanging on that comment. She ended up contacting me today at 1h30 saying "Hi" as if to start a brand new conversation and forget about how the last one ended. I played the game and just said "hi" she asked me how I was and now the conversation has halted at the basic "hi how are you well thank you" I'm not digging further, if she wants to talk or see me she can connect the dots but meanwhile if she doesn't I'm moving on.

I completely agree with you, her coping mechanisms have been "working for her 31 years" I'm not saying I want to change her, but before diagnosing someone to be "unworthy" I still think its worth a couple of chit chats to see how she reacts, responds and what her actions are after the fact. As of now I can see no positive surprises unfortunately.

[PeteWitsend]

Well, listen, as many on here have noted, BPD is a Personality disorder.  it's not an illness.  It's not something you can address in a chat.  and it is - by all accounts - notoriously difficult to address in therapy, for a number of reasons, mostly because pwBPD refuse to admit they have a problem, and blame everyone around them for their own decisions, feelings, and actions.

So if you are concerned this is BPD - and you are right to be - go into this assuming that her behavior isn't going to change, and certainly not because you had a chat about your expectations. 

Two more thoughts:
1) I was closer to your age when I met my wife.  She was about 5 years younger.  She  was hot;  the best looking woman I had ever dated, and I thought at the time, that all the other male attention she was getting was due to her looks.  I had to basically compete for her affection, particularly in the beginning.  at the time, I told myself "Hey, this is the price you pay for having a hot girlfriend."

But looking back: I had dated, including long term relationships, other good-looking girls. I was never made to feel like I wasn't first in their lives, and they  weren'tinterested in me specifically; I wasn't just "any guy" to them.

I realize now that if a woman lets you know she has lots of male attention, that's by design.  women get hit on by guys; that happens.  But it's how they react to it that you need to consider.  do they tell you?  do they want you to get jealous? do they flirt back?  or do they shut it down? 

2) You said she's a bartender and parties hard.

if I'm reading these timelines correctly, sounds like she blows you off on the weekends or has "other plans" and then calls you up Monday- Tuesday, etc. To chat. mostly at "non-party" times.      

consider whether she's really interested in a relationship, or only reaching out on Monday because you're the only guy she knows who isn't passed out drunk at the moment. 

[Red5]

 Subaru02... .you wrote... .to Pete,

You probably have a lot more knowledge and experience in the BPD field than I want or would want to get into.
My BPD friend has everything and more than you mentioned above.

abandonned at age 8
send away to a foreign country without the parents to escape war in Serbia
abandonnef from her younger sister
war trauma
other traumas, probably sexual abuse at age 15
abortion at age 17
miscarrige at age 31
too much drinking andparty - despite her long time bf
driving wehen drunk an losing the driver license
kissing unknown guys or strangers
giving no contact
giving silent treatment
red flags in behaviour towards other people, men and women
totally unreliable
probably lying a lot
that list could go on

Ok, what you have here is an”text book” case of most likely a collection of several personality disorders... .all in there and operational at the same time, that list of yours sounds just (a lot) like my first wife, and I was married to her for twenty two years, .it almost did be it... .a very long story,

And I echo what Pete says, she is 31, the die is set, and cast in iron, she will not change until something very drastic were to happen in her life and then maybe not even then, .imho you are playing with matches and a can of gasoline there, be careful.

She may be fun and interesting, I had a GF for about a year kind of like her (the list) after my divorce and before I married my present u/BPD wife, .it’s was a lot of fun, but I had the where with all not to let her talk me into anything like joint checking accounts and marraige certificates... .

Yeah... .be careful with that one Subaru02!

Red5

[Subaru02]

Well, listen, as many on here have noted, BPD is a Personality disorder.  it's not an illness.  It's not something you can address in a chat.  and it is - by all accounts - notoriously difficult to address in therapy, for a number of reasons, mostly because pwBPD refuse to admit they have a problem, and blame everyone around them for their own decisions, feelings, and actions.

So if you are concerned this is BPD - and you are right to be - go into this assuming that her behavior isn't going to change, and certainly not because you had a chat about your expectations. 

Two more thoughts:
1) I was closer to your age when I met my wife.  She was about 5 years younger.  She  was hot;  the best looking woman I had ever dated, and I thought at the time, that all the other male attention she was getting was due to her looks.  I had to basically compete for her affection, particularly in the beginning.  at the time, I told myself "Hey, this is the price you pay for having a hot girlfriend."

But looking back: I had dated, including long term relationships, other good-looking girls. I was never made to feel like I wasn't first in their lives, and they  weren'tinterested in me specifically; I wasn't just "any guy" to them.

I realize now that if a woman lets you know she has lots of male attention, that's by design.  women get hit on by guys; that happens.  But it's how they react to it that you need to consider.  do they tell you?  do they want you to get jealous? do they flirt back?  or do they shut it down? 

2) You said she's a bartender and parties hard.

if I'm reading these timelines correctly, sounds like she blows you off on the weekends or has "other plans" and then calls you up Monday- Tuesday, etc. To chat. mostly at "non-party" times.      

consider whether she's really interested in a relationship, or only reaching out on Monday because you're the only guy she knows who isn't passed out drunk at the moment. 

1) My first girlfriend was 5 years younger, I was hitting on her when she was with another guy and she couldn't shut it down. I was a more interesting option. We ended up together when she broke up with him. She had no male attention that was probably worth it until late in our 4 year relationship. Seems she couldn't handle it and shut it down again so she ended up moving to another guy, came back to me, and then another guy again. I think its how they operate, it hurts but I rather have suffered all that incoherence that be stuck with the disorder she most definitely has now from observation. During the relationship I kept standing up to her when she would lie when it came to taking responsability for her actions, and try to switch fault and responsability to others this would piss her off even more. I see now that I wasn't crazy, it wasn't normal to have to milk guilt out of her and have her be accountable things she did. Everything she did was always in reaction to someone else's behaviour, typically mine. Never was it her fault.   This new girl (31 yr old one) acts the same way but still on a minor but observable scale, she finds refuge to justify her actions, its never directly or entirely her wrong doing, it always has to do with some outside condition that "forced her to make a choice like that" ... .I.E. : You didn't show enough interest in me so I "HAD" to go out and see another guy. Sure.

2) Some weekends in the past she has spent them with me partly, most weekends she works late so its hard to judge. I agree with you she might only be available for me when she knows I'm the only one who might be "available". Never the less I think this whole thing has come to a halt.

Any further carrying on of this "relationship" is basically me accepting to be with someone on such ___ty terms. I think I've seen enough to know this is a black hole I will never fill. By disengaging now I can say I've learned something, specially by sharing my experience so far with you it helped to see the bigger picture that some of my physical caveman attraction refused to see at first.

I know this board covers "relationships" and the people affected bt them but I honestly I think its also VERY GOOD to use this knowledge and prevent another relationship like this from forming at the SOURCE.

If you have the possibility of being almost 90% certain that you are dealing with a pwBPD before becoming attached, I think the forum has done its job quite well.

[Subaru02]

Subaru02... .you wrote ... .to Pete,

You probably have a lot more knowledge and experience in the BPD field than I want or would want to get into.
My BPD friend has everything and more than you mentioned above.

abandonned at age 8
send away to a foreign country without the parents to escape war in Serbia
abandonnef from her younger sister
war trauma
other traumas, probably sexual abuse at age 15
abortion at age 17
miscarrige at age 31
too much drinking andparty - despite her long time bf
driving wehen drunk an losing the driver license
kissing unknown guys or strangers
giving no contact
giving silent treatment
red flags in behaviour towards other people, men and women
totally unreliable
probably lying a lot
that list could go on

Ok, what you have here is an”text book” case of most likely a collection of several personality disorders ... .all in there and operational at the same time, that list of yours sounds just (a lot) like my first wife, and I was married to her for twenty two years, ... .it almost did be it ... .a very long story,

And I echo what Pete says, she is 31, the die is set, and cast in iron, she will not change until something very drastic were to happen in her life and then maybe not even then, ... .imho you are playing with matches and a can of gasoline there, be careful.

She may be fun and interesting, I had a GF for about a year kind of like her (the list) after my divorce and before I married my present u/BPD wife, ... .it’s was a lot of fun, but I had the where with all not to let her talk me into anything like joint checking accounts and marraige certificates ... .

Yeah ... .be careful with that one Subaru02!

Red5

I didn't write this list another member did. But it still applies because some of it seems to fit atleast partially with the one I "was seeing".

I mean in all honesty I knew she wasn't going to be relationship material, I was interested in seeing where all this could go but everytime I think were starting on a fresh base she does some wack moves that frustrate me, and turn me off completely. At first the 2-3 first times I was like "Meh, she doesn't OWE me anything its not like she's my GF or anything its ok if she has other plans" but when its a repetitive cycle of push and pull, when all her words and actions never align whether they include me or not (I.E. I will spend the rest of the week not drinking so I can save up for a trip) and she starts drinking the next day again, even if it doesn't directly involve me its still a redflag to wonder what other commitments she won't live up to.

As our conversations continued she flipped back and forth from extra needy to extra independant within days (unstable, unreliable, name it). Changing plans, cancelling plans and then blaming ME for not following through with her plans when we talk about it days later... "I only cancelled that because YOU didn't show interest, I only ended up drinking with my friends BECAUSE YOU didn't give me any news for dinner tonight.

In the end I need to question myself why I sit there and let her disappoint me repeatedly. I think I nailed it down to the fact that my nature is to "dillude myself" that I can make these people wake up and change. Its bullsh1t and it most probably would never happen even after 4 yrs with my past GF I tried really hard to make her see things and she refused to in the end she left painting me black and saying she was always unhappy.

[Lady Itone]

I think I nailed it down to the fact that my nature is to "dillude myself" that I can make these people wake up and change.

I figured I would be the one to finally get through and show my poor, BPDgf the right way to live a life. I would be the one to finally set boundaries that would steer her straight. My will would be stronger than hers, my heart more pure. Of course she can see that I am the one who is "worth" it, I'm the game-changer, right?

I didn't take into account the others who tried before me, her mother, her brother, her ex-wife. Did you know they all tried to set boundaries for her, I'm not the first? I used to feel so superior.

I was arrogant.

[Subaru02]

I figured I would be the one to finally get through and show my poor, BPDgf the right way to live a life. I would be the one to finally set boundaries that would steer her straight. My will would be stronger than hers, my heart more pure. Of course she can see that I am the one who is "worth" it, I'm the game-changer, right?

I didn't take into account the others who tried before me, her mother, her brother, her ex-wife. Did you know they all tried to set boundaries for her, I'm not the first? I used to feel so superior.

I was arrogant.

That hits hard, but I don't see that as arrogance. Should we always give up because others have tried before us? She even told me she told her mother about me and the way she described me to her mother, her mother told her "This one is a keeper you should be nice to him", wonder where that went.

I still have to agree that its still something to consider though, all the guys that tried before me, her parents, her brothers and don't forget the friends too.

I can see she's smart, its a bummer she never finished highschool and ended up in bars and restaurants, having kids and then just circling back to ther teenage life constantly without trying to make a lasting change. If I listen carefully I can notice that her ex (one of the fathers) basically got on his knees for her, and she admits he had helped her "get straight". Apparently, he's in huge pain to watch her sleep around and not care about him anymore, I can't judge him for that.

These types of disorders they can feel like special people, at first you feel like you can connect with them like no other. No wonder its so confusing to have this really interesting pillow talk and feel like you connected with them and that they see you as "worth it" or "different" and then they turn around and pretend like all that stuff was meaningless. I even tried to remind her about one of the talks we had and she was confused as to why I was bringing that up she doesn't understand at all...

Anyways no news from her in the past days but so far the cycle has looked a lot like this :

First time we met : Normal chit chat and then "want to have a drink after I finish work? ---- We Had a drink, we got along, invited her over then "something happens" and she runs away while following me with her car no explanation until the next day.

"I want to make it up to you for yesterday when can we have dinner or a drink?" We have a drink have a nice evening, the next few days love bombing asking to see me again and again. Things feel good, then she becomes distant and blows off the next couple of meetings in a vague way, basically making her life look too busy to include me.

Shows up after a few days and wants to see me again, she explains that she's been trying to be independant to get attached less quickly, she admits to getting attached too quickly when a guy really interests her so she overcompensates by trying to resist her urges to see and talk to him often... .I decide to initially go with the flow and see where this goes. We have another nice evening and in person she's a lot of fun as long as we're one on one. As soon as we're communicating over text the "games" seem to start again, she can't answer a direct question, if she said earlier in the day that she'd stop by and see you in the evening she spends the night out with "friends" getting drunk and just keeps you updated on all the bars she's moving to but never gives you an ETA.

Last time she came over we cuddled on the couch she told me she was lucky that I was still giving her a chance to prove she was well intentioned. She wondered why she deserved that chance and I just laughed it off because deep down, I know she doesn't. She told me "I'm sorry for disappointing you a lot lately, I don't want to disappoint you anymore... ." I just nodded and changed the subject. One thing I was impressed was even though she gets hit on a lot, she also expressed heavy jealousy towards the fact that I have other women interested as well. She feels an overwhelming need to be reassured that I won't "hurt her" when she's the unreliable figure.

Sometime in the time line we had a quick conversation on how disrespectful it was for her to consistently change her behaviour from one day to another. I said "How can you tell me you like spending time with me, spend the night at my place and then be completely silent for 3 days? I'm not interested in playing games". She just asks me "What do you expect of me?" It always becomes "my fault / my expectations / my needs" that dictate her behaviour. I said "All I expect is that you be consistent in your actions, and that your words be consistent with them too" she said "OK"

Couple days since then, I felt like we had an agreement, her "fear of losing me" I thought was soothed by having a mature conversation and then she goes silent again and occasionally texts a "Hi How are you" and then nothing when I answer.

Typical BPD behaviour?

[PeteWitsend]

I want to echo LadyItone here who makes a good point, and one I meant to make, but didn't.

Yeah... .you're not the first to try to help or show her the error of her ways. 

You've obviously fallen for her, and hey, I'm not judging, I also ignored some red flags in my own life.

But try to take a step outside yourself, and think what you would do if you were watching this person go from guy to guy, just because she can't be alone for more than 5 seconds without attention from someone.

... .

These types of disorders they can feel like special people, at first you feel like you can connect with them like no other. No wonder its so confusing to have this really interesting pillow talk and feel like you connected with them and that they see you as "worth it" or "different" and then they turn around and pretend like all that stuff was meaningless. I even tried to remind her about one of the talks we had and she was confused as to why I was bringing that up she doesn't understand at all...

If it helps you put things in perspective, just like you're not the first one to try to help her, you're also probably not the first person she's said were "worth it" or "different."

her surprise may be due to the fact that she didn't think you would actually buy it.

Typical BPD behaviour?

YES. 

And given the presumed sleeping around, alcoholism, and outright neglect of her own children, a more extreme case than some here endure. 

In my own case, I made it pretty clear that if she was going to talk to other guys and make plans with other guys - clear to me these guys didn't intend to be  "friends" - yet expect me to stick around for her, then she should find someone else.  She stopped that, and to her credit I never have had reason to suspect any different.  Of course we have all sorts of other BPD-related problems, but that's for another thread.

That can't be an empty threat though.  if you're looking for a committed partner, and not really just sticking around because of you're curious to observing a bordeline's behavior... .you may want to consider setting those boundaries already, lest you end up in a situation beyond your own control or choosing. 

[Subaru02]

I want to echo LadyItone here who makes a good point, and one I meant to make, but didn't.

Yeah... .you're not the first to try to help or show her the error of her ways. 

You've obviously fallen for her, and hey, I'm not judging, I also ignored some red flags in my own life.

But try to take a step outside yourself, and think what you would do if you were watching this person go from guy to guy, just because she can't be alone for more than 5 seconds without attention from someone.

If it helps you put things in perspective, just like you're not the first one to try to help her, you're also probably not the first person she's said were "worth it" or "different."

her surprise may be due to the fact that she didn't think you would actually buy it.

YES. 

And given the presumed sleeping around, alcoholism, and outright neglect of her own children, a more extreme case than some here endure. 

In my own case, I made it pretty clear that if she was going to talk to other guys and make plans with other guys - clear to me these guys didn't intend to be  "friends" - yet expect me to stick around for her, then she should find someone else.  She stopped that, and to her credit I never have had reason to suspect any different.  Of course we have all sorts of other BPD-related problems, but that's for another thread.

That can't be an empty threat though.  if you're looking for a committed partner, and not really just sticking around because of you're curious to observing a bordeline's behavior... .you may want to consider setting those boundaries already, lest you end up in a situation beyond your own control or choosing. 

I don't think I fell for her, had a bit of curiosity but I saw all this and from the start knew it wasn't going to be long lived but decided it wouldn't hurt to get to know her better, have some fun and see where it goes and stop complicating things... .

Didn't even last 2-3 weeks that I'm already on this board talking about her because I saw all the red-flags but wanted to still post them here and get your advice. So I guess if she was "normal and relationship material" I wouldn't be posting here and would be enjoying our time together (which is what I would have prefered honestly)

Now that she's shown a lot of traits / signs that whatever she is BPD or a mix of other traits and that she's blown off a lot of our planned dinners/activities like they were never up in the air. (Basically invites you, confirms with you before and then cancels last minute ... .) Its a huge lack of respect and now she went silent since then an even bigger sign that she doesn't even care about blowing me off. I have reason to believe that there may be once again another guy newly in the picture, it would make sense she works in restaurants, bars and spends the rest of her time eating out, and drinking at bars when she's off... .I don't think a needy woman becomes independant all of a sudden, she probably transferred all her neediness to someone else.

Its frustrating even if I didn't fall for her, it still sucks to see how some people have absolutely no integrity, I wouldn't be comfortable sleeping with a girl a handful of times, tell her I feel safe and comfortable with her, talk about going on a trip somewhere when she's on vacation in April, invite her to dinner and then disappear without explanation... .Did I just serve my purpose of keeping her busy while she was still out there throwing bait to other "more interesting" prospects, I guess I'll never really know

Who knows maybe she'll have another shortlived relationship and send me a random invitation out of nowhere ... .