Help with a reality check?

[Greencane]

Hi again bpdfamily family, I’m hoping for a little reality check here.

I’ve posted in the past about the very strained relationship that my dBPDw has with my mother. In short, my wife hates my mom, she feels that my mom doesn’t like her, respect her, and wants to steal my affection all for herself. They used to have a great relationship but when I made the mistake of sharing with my wife that my mom expressed concerns to me about her drinking my mom got painted black. Things on that front have been very difficult for over a year but got really bad over Thanksgiving when my mom came to visit. We had previously made plans to go to her house over Christmas but canceled them because my wife was so upset at the way she perceived that she had been treated over Thanksgiving. It broke my mom’s heart when I had to tell her that we weren’t coming, and mine, too. We made that decision together in therapy, and that was the advice of our marriage counselor. We go to therapy weekly and at times it seems helpful and at times just like an hour for her to talk about how awful I am as a spouse. Our counselor is also her personal therapist. It’s certainly not a standard situation, but after she fired our last 2 counselors for perceived injustices I accepted the risk of lack of impartiality in seeing her therapist together because I knew she at least trusted this guy.

I love my mom. She’s not without her flaws but she’s a good person. And she adores our kids and they adore her. I’ve raised the idea a couple of times since we called off Chiristmas about planning a trip for her to come up or for me to take the kids down to her but my wife has shot those down. And, over the course of these last few months, our therapist has urged me to not act unilaterally and be patient while we work on our issues.

So, a week or two ago, I had said to my mom that maybe she could come up for our D2’s 3rd birthday party, coming up in a few weekends. She totally jumped all over that idea because she is dying to see them. I was waiting for the right time to bring up that suggestion to my wife, but I was dreading it because I knew it would result in anger and strife. Last weekend I was facetiming with my mom and our S7, with my wife in the background. My mom said to him, “I’m coming to see you soon!” and my wife flipped out. I told her that we didn’t have any plans, it was just an idea, but she accused me of making plans behind her back, etc.

We had a joint counseling session the next day where it was difficult to make any real progress because she was so angry. We had another today and this one left my head spinning a little and left me doubting myself. I’ve been working hard on setting limits and everyone whom I’ve spoken to about this situation has told me not to sacrifice my relationship with my mom. So I’ve held fast, not backed down, and stood my ground. Our counselor today, though, made multiple comments today about limit setting being appropriate for kids, not adults, and that I was harming our marriage by insisting on seeing my mom. After I mentioned that I’ve been working on maintaining healthy limits in my own therapy he asked if it bothered me that my personal therapy was interfering with our couple’s therapy. This was hard to hear because I’ve been pretty proud of the work I’ve been doing setting limits and I really like and trust this therapist.

Despite the fact that I said early on in our session this morning that I wanted to work on a plan for her visit so she could make flight arrangements, nothing was accomplished. I talked to my wife tonight (while she had her face in her phone, typical 2-year-old behavior) and I tried to use the same strategy I use with our daughter, allow her to feel some measure of choice. So I said that my mom could come up for D2’s birthday, she could come up some other weekend, or I could take the kids to see her. I asked her which would be least distressing to her (trying to acknowledge her feelings) and she said she’d think about it.

I truly feel like I’m doing the right thing here but being chastised by this therapist whom I trust made me have second thoughts. I’d love some honest feedback from the collective, especially if you think I’m wrong or how I should have handled things differently. (I do acknowledge that I probably should have spoken to my wife before even mentioning the possibility of a visit with my mom, oh well).

Thanks, family, I so value your insight.

-Greencane

[juju2]

That's a hard one

Is your dBPDw drinking a lot.

Sounds like you hit a nerve.  Someone hit a nerve.

If she has problem w alcohol, you qualify for going to al anon, it's a great program.

Guess if she won't let her visit, you and the kids could go see her?

Idk.

Just because she wants to excommunicate someone, doesn't mean I have to.

These skirmishes are not including me.  I don't take sides.

It's best for me not to engage in gossip, character assassination, etc. 

I believe that principles should be ahead of personalities.

What does your family believe in, what principles... .

It's easier if we just agree family is important, I won't judge my family members on their worst day

I don't give carte blanche to a therapist either.

It's my life.  If it doesn't agree with my gut, I am mot doing something someone else says.

My life is mine.

I don't have specific experience w what your are dealing with, so take what you like about my message, and leave the rest.

Blessings,

Juju



 

[mama-wolf]

Our counselor today, though, made multiple comments today about limit setting being appropriate for kids, not adults, and that I was harming our marriage by insisting on seeing my mom. After I mentioned that I’ve been working on maintaining healthy limits in my own therapy he asked if it bothered me that my personal therapy was interfering with our couple’s therapy.

Hi Greencane,

I have to say, the fact that your couples therapist 1) suggested setting your own boundaries based on your personal values was a bad thing, and 2) in any way tried to put your own personal therapy in conflict with your couples therapy sets off major  red flags for me.

I don’t know the details of your situation or those involved, but I would expect that ethically speaking your couples therapist has an obligation to respect the individual therapy you are receiving and to work with that in the context of your relationship.  The fact that your couples therapist is also your pwBPd’s individual therapist really seems to be muddying the waters on that end. Have you discussed this dynamic with your personal therapist?

mw

[Greencane]

Juju: thanks for replying. Drinking has been a big problem in the past, less so now. I went to Al-Anon a few times and she went totally ballistic on that. I wasn't as good about enforcing my limits then so I stopped. I pitched the idea of my taking the kids to see my mom without my wife and she said that it would be too dangerous, the kids could fall in the pool when nobody was watching. Total horse manure, but I think she was struggling with the idea of being left behind, something she finds intolerable. Since our S7 is my stepson I don't have any legal rights to take him on a trip without her consent.

Mama-wolf: I agree about the red flags, I was quite surprised. It makes me think that he's lost his ability to be impartial due to his work with her individually. And it seemed very out of character for him, I think he's an excellent therapist. I haven't really touched on this issue before with my personal T because it's never been an issue before, but she was bale to get me in this week so I look forward to her input.

Thank you both for your thoughts!

[formflier]

Hey Greencane... .

I'm going to acknowledge upfront that it's unlikely you gave us all the info from the therapists, so perhaps there is missing info.  In my opinion, the information that is here is pretty glaring... .and screams for attention because I think it is doing an enormous amount of damage to your relationship

OK... .big breath.  I'm not blaming you... .I am hoping to open your eyes to what you can take responsibility for that will likely improve your relationship.

I also want to give a nod to Babyducks who was the first person to mention to me the concept of "put things in their own buckets".

So... let's put some stuff in buckets and set those aside.

Your wife likely drinks too much.  Stick that in a bucket... .and also realize that you have little control or responsibility for this.

Your wife displays BPDish behavior (is she diagnosed?)  Again... .separate bucket and not your responsibility... .although you do bear some responsibility to understand her disorder and realize that some of your behaviors specifically may inflame her "emotionality".  You are responsible for avoiding that.

Let's talk about "today's bucket", which is your relationship with your mother and how that affects your marriage.  Guess what... .that relationship is 50% under your control and responsibility and you are 100% able to control how YOU relate to your Mom.

Kinda a secondary issue of your relationship with your therapists... are YOU listening to them and when you hear them... .do you give a good faith effort to follow their advice.

Big breath.

Hi again bpdfamily family, I’m hoping for a little reality check here.

The reality check is there is a lot that can be done... by YOU... .to improve how your relationship with you Mom affects your marriage.  The good news is I see this improving things a lot, yet I understand some of the steps may not be pleasant.

I’ve posted in the past about the very strained relationship that my dBPDw has with my mother. In short, my wife hates my mom, she feels that my mom doesn’t like her, respect her, and wants to steal my affection all for herself.

OK... .

Your wife can feel however she wants.  Hopefully both of you can get to the point where you can separate feelings and actions.  So... .this is kinda  a separate bucket.

There is another bucket here of "Have I done things to help my wife feel this way?" which should flow into "what can I do to improve the situation"

They used to have a great relationship but when I made the mistake of sharing with my wife that my mom expressed concerns to me about her drinking my mom got painted black.

Look... .man... you are talking about setting limits... .and this is a HUGE one. 

Did you ask your Mom if it was OK to share her private conversation with your wife? 

 How does your Mom feel about her private thoughts about someone else being revealed?

So... .the impact of inappropriate limits on your marriage... .in this situation was?

Things on that front have been very difficult for over a year but got really bad over Thanksgiving when my mom came to visit.

Can you share more about this?  It appears your wife "allowed" your Mom to come up.  It appears it didn't go well.

I'm going to assume there is important information here.  Can you tell if from your wife's point of view? 

Can you tell it from your point of view?

Can you tell it from your Mom's point of view?

How different are those points of view?

. We made that decision together in therapy, and that was the advice of our marriage counselor. 

This is very very very good.

A therapist and two people i a marriage making a decision together... .solid work!

I love my mom. She’s not without her flaws but she’s a good person. And she adores our kids and they adore her.

Good... .this is a separate bucket.  Remember... .limits.

I’ve raised the idea a couple of times since we called off Chiristmas about planning a trip for her to come up or for me to take the kids down to her but my wife has shot those down.

Ok... .you raised and idea... .your wife said no.

Is it "safe" for your wife to say no?  have your actions and words and questions given her an indication that you respect her opinion and feelings on this matter?

And, over the course of these last few months, our therapist has urged me to not act unilaterally and be patient while we work on our issues.

OK... .this is good... clear information about what a professional that has looked into your relationship thinks about what you should do and SHOULD NOT do in order to improve the relationship.

Can you tell me how you have tried to follow this advice... .once you heard it?

So, a week or two ago, I had said to my mom that maybe she could come up for our D2’s 3rd birthday party, coming up in a few weekends. She totally jumped all over that idea because she is dying to see them.

How does this relate to the point above? 

Given that you have said how much your kids love your Mom and that your Mom loves them... .did this surprise you at all?

My assumption is this was the reaction you expected to get.

I was waiting for the right time to bring up that suggestion to my wife, but I was dreading it because I knew it would result in anger and strife.

Hmmm... .so... .you knew this.  This is not a surprise.  Sort of like it's not a surprise that a hot stove will burn you.  Did you consider this before bringing this up with your Mom ?  What was your plan?

How did this plan relate to the clear advice the therapist gave you?  How were you "connecting the dots"?

Last weekend I was facetiming with my mom and our S7, with my wife in the background. My mom said to him, “I’m coming to see you soon!” and my wife flipped out. I told her that we didn’t have any plans, it was just an idea, but she accused me of making plans behind her back, etc.

So... .was your wife aware of the therapist recommendation to NOT act unilaterally?  I assume she was? 

I'm actually shocked that she didn't focus on that aspect. 

I mean... .you were making some sort of plans behind your wife's back... .right?

We had a joint counseling session the next day where it was difficult to make any real progress because she was so angry.

Given the totality of the situation... .do you think your wife should be angry?  I do... .


 

I’ve been working hard on setting limits and everyone whom I’ve spoken to about this situation has told me not to sacrifice my relationship with my mom.

Wait... what? 

Who has asked you to sacrifice your relationship with your Mom?  Perhaps this is some of the missing information.

Also... .for someone working hard on setting limits... .I'm curious how many people you have spoken to about this situation?

So... I'm assuming your therapist(s) and your wife.

Who else?

So I’ve held fast, not backed down, and stood my ground. Our counselor today, though, made multiple comments today about limit setting being appropriate for kids, not adults, and that I was harming our marriage by insisting on seeing my mom.

Wait... not backed down from what? 
 
What value are you "standing your ground on"? 

Umm... .you do seem to be harming your marriage relationship  by apparently having no flexibility in how you "conduct" or "do" your relationship with your Mom. 

1.  Inability to have private conversations.
2.  Inability to discuss plans with wife first.
3.  Inability to follow therapist's recommendations for improving your marriage relationship, where your Mom's relationship is concerned.

And then... .seemingly out of nowhere... .it appears you believe you are being asked to "sacrifice" your relationship with your Mom. 

After I mentioned that I’ve been working on maintaining healthy limits in my own therapy he asked if it bothered me that my personal therapy was interfering with our couple’s therapy. This was hard to hear because I’ve been pretty proud of the work I’ve been doing setting limits and I really like and trust this therapist.

So... .what specifically has your personal therapist advised you to do that is "against" what your marriage therapist is advising.

Are there other things they are advising you to do, which you are not following (such as the no unilateral action thing)?

Despite the fact that I said early on in our session this morning that I wanted to work on a plan for her visit so she could make flight arrangements, nothing was accomplished.

Was it ok or "safe" for your wife to say no?

I understand what you want?

What is it that your wife wants? 

I talked to my wife tonight (while she had her face in her phone, typical 2-year-old behavior) and I tried to use the same strategy I use with our daughter, allow her to feel some measure of choice. So I said that my mom could come up for D2’s birthday, she could come up some other weekend, or I could take the kids to see her. I asked her which would be least distressing to her (trying to acknowledge her feelings) and she said she’d think about it.

OK... .so... .your wife and therapist(s) seem to have a consistent message for you... .yet you still seem to want to continue to badger your wife about your Mom coming up.

I think she had a fairly healthy response to this.  Don't you?

I truly feel like I’m doing the right thing here but being chastised by this therapist whom I trust made me have second thoughts. I’d love some honest feedback from the collective, especially if you think I’m wrong or how I should have handled things differently. (I do acknowledge that I probably should have spoken to my wife before even mentioning the possibility of a visit with my mom, oh well).

So... .what exactly did the therapist chastise you for?

If the therapist is chastising you for not following specific advice... .well... .isn't that something to be chastised for?

Listen... .please fill in some knowledge gaps that I obviously have.  There are also obviously things you need to work on and set LIMITS and PRIORITIES on. 

A big part of this is trying to "repair" a relationship that has been damaged between you and your wife.  I get it you feel responsible for that, so it's natural you would want to "help". 

I would encourage you to let the therapists take the lead here... .it's likely that your "instincts" about what may "help" are flawed at the moment.  Focus on learning better skills and limits for yourself.

Hang in there man... .this stuff isn't easy!

FF

[formflier]

  Since our S7 is my stepson I don't have any legal rights to take him on a trip without her consent.

For someone that is working on setting limits... this is good information to know.


So... .big picture about conducting relationships.

If someone else is a "decider"... .and you want them to decided something a certain way... .what is the best way to influence them to decide things your way?

FF

[Greencane]

Formflier: Thanks up front for replying, I appreciate the time it took to do so and I appreciate  a point of view that challenges mine, that's just what I was hoping for posting here.

Hey Greencane... .

I'm going to acknowledge upfront that it's unlikely you gave us all the info from the therapists, so perhaps there is missing info.  In my opinion, the information that is here is pretty glaring... .and screams for attention because I think it is doing an enormous amount of damage to your relationship

OK... .big breath.  I'm not blaming you... .I am hoping to open your eyes to what you can take responsibility for that will likely improve your relationship.

I also want to give a nod to Babyducks who was the first person to mention to me the concept of "put things in their own buckets".

So... let's put some stuff in buckets and set those aside.

Your wife likely drinks too much.  Stick that in a bucket... .and also realize that you have little control or responsibility for this.

Agreed, and agree that it's a separate bucket.

Your wife displays BPDish behavior (is she diagnosed?)  Again... .separate bucket and not your responsibility... .although you do bear some responsibility to understand her disorder and realize that some of your behaviors specifically may inflame her "emotionality".  You are responsible for avoiding that.

A previous marriage counselor told me that she had diagnosed my wife with BPD. Our current T said in a previous session that some would call her BPD but he feels symptoms are more accurately described by PTSD. Whether she is or not, she demonstrates behaviors consistent with BPD. Agreed, separate bucket.

Let's talk about "today's bucket", which is your relationship with your mother and how that affects your marriage.  Guess what... .that relationship is 50% under your control and responsibility and you are 100% able to control how YOU relate to your Mom.

Kinda a secondary issue of your relationship with your therapists... are YOU listening to them and when you hear them... .do you give a good faith effort to follow their advice.

Big breath.

The reality check is there is a lot that can be done... by YOU... .to improve how your relationship with you Mom affects your marriage.  The good news is I see this improving things a lot, yet I understand some of the steps may not be pleasant.



OK... .

Your wife can feel however she wants.  Hopefully both of you can get to the point where you can separate feelings and actions.  So... .this is kinda  a separate bucket.

There is another bucket here of "Have I done things to help my wife feel this way?" which should flow into "what can I do to improve the situation"



Look... .man... you are talking about setting limits... .and this is a HUGE one. 

Did you ask your Mom if it was OK to share her private conversation with your wife? 

 How does your Mom feel about her private thoughts about someone else being revealed?

So... .the impact of inappropriate limits on your marriage... .in this situation was?

Yup, that was a mistake on my part and a violation of my mom's confidence, made out of desperation and anger, but not an excuse.

Can you share more about this?  It appears your wife "allowed" your Mom to come up.  It appears it didn't go well.

I'm going to assume there is important information here.  Can you tell if from your wife's point of view? 

Can you tell it from your point of view?

Can you tell it from your Mom's point of view?

How different are those points of view?

For the last few years our pattern has been Mom comes to us for Thanksgiving, we go to her for Christmas, and we go to her summer place over the summer. Then a few other random visits here and there. Every successive visit has been more strained, with my wife feeling more and more disrespected. My mom is a little over the top, kind of larger than life, very extroverted and talkative, but sometimes than can mean that she interrupts people when they talk. That was one of the first things that my wife pointed to as evidence that my mom doesn't respect her and doesn't want to hear what my wife has to say. This summer when we went to visit her my wife said on the first day, "I notice she hasn't bought any wine for me. What a b**. She's clearly trying to send me a message about my drinking." Then when the case of wine that my mom had previously ordered arrived the next day my wife's response was, "That's insulting, why would she buy a whole case of wine for me? Is she trying to tell me something?" Over Thanksgiving my mom made a comment over dinner with our kids about not putting money in your mouth because it all has cocaine on it. I acknowledge, not the best thing to bring up with a S7 at the table. This also set my wife off and was evidence that she's a bad influence on our kids. There was a lot of think veiled hostility from my wife towards my mom. At the time I was not doing a good job about acknowledging my wife's perception and I defended my mom, which, obviously, made things worse.

So from my point of view I have two women I love dearly and it's terrible to see them not getting along.
From my wife's post of view, this is a histrionic drama queen who's inappropriate, loud, and disrespectful and can't stand the thought of sharing her boy with another woman.
From my mom's point of view she's being her normal self and pretty bewildered at why my wife seems to hostile to her now. She does think that my wife has a drinking problem but doesn't bring it up.

This is very very very good.

A therapist and two people i a marriage making a decision together... .solid work!
 

Good... .this is a separate bucket.  Remember... .limits.




Ok... .you raised and idea... .your wife said no.

Is it "safe" for your wife to say no?  have your actions and words and questions given her an indication that you respect her opinion and feelings on this matter?

Hmmmm. Probably not. I have tried, but have not been as good as I should have been about acknowledging her perception and making her feel heard. I personally feel that her perception is completely inaccurate and it's very hurtful to me that she can't get along with her, and I'm sure that I have let show in negative ways.

OK... .this is good... clear information about what a professional that has looked into your relationship thinks about what you should do and SHOULD NOT do in order to improve the relationship.

Can you tell me how you have tried to follow this advice... .once you heard it?

Not much to say here, I think, I just put my desire for the kids and I to see my mom on hold. When my mom and I would talk I would just say that now isn't the time, but I'm working on it.

How does this relate to the point above? 

Given that you have said how much your kids love your Mom and that your Mom loves them... .did this surprise you at all?

My assumption is this was the reaction you expected to get.

I wasn't expecting it but I should have. I think that I was just so excited abut the idea of proposing this to my mom that I didn't think it through. I knew that the idea of it would make her so happy and I wanted to give that to her.

Hmmm... .so... .you knew this.  This is not a surprise.  Sort of like it's not a surprise that a hot stove will burn you.  Did you consider this before bringing this up with your Mom ?  What was your plan?

How did this plan relate to the clear advice the therapist gave you?  How were you "connecting the dots"?

My plan was to wait for our next counseling session and propose it then. I didn't feel that it was unilateral action but I can see how it would be perceived that way. At this point, it's been 5 months since I've seen my mom and I felt like this was a need of mine that was not being met. I didn't feel that sacrificing my relationship with my mother was something I should have to do for the sake of the marriage. It felt unhealthy.

So... .was your wife aware of the therapist recommendation to NOT act unilaterally?  I assume she was? 

I'm actually shocked that she didn't focus on that aspect. 

I mean... .you were making some sort of plans behind your wife's back... .right?

I didn't feel that saying, "Maybe you can come up for D2's birthday" to my mom really qualified as "making plans" so I was actually a little surprised that felt that this was going behind her back. Looking at it from her point of view, though, I get it. Like you say... .deep breath... .this is tough stuff.

Given the totality of the situation... .do you think your wife should be angry?  I do... .


 
Wait... what? 

Who has asked you to sacrifice your relationship with your Mom?  Perhaps this is some of the missing information.

Also... .for someone working hard on setting limits... .I'm curious how many people you have spoken to about this situation?

So... I'm assuming your therapist(s) and your wife.

Who else?

I feel that canceling our trip over Christmas and then not consenting to reschedule another visit, or even allow me to visit my mom with the kids, has been impacting my relationship with my mom. Or, to be more clear, has been impacting me and impacting my mom, our relationship is very solid. Although this summer, when I asked my mom not to come to dinner at my brother's house because I knew it would upset my wife, was hurtful to her.

I've talked to my personal T, a few friends, and the input that I've gotten here.

Wait... not backed down from what? 
 
What value are you "standing your ground on"? 

Umm... .you do seem to be harming your marriage relationship  by apparently having no flexibility in how you "conduct" or "do" your relationship with your Mom. 

1.  Inability to have private conversations.
2.  Inability to discuss plans with wife first.
3.  Inability to follow therapist's recommendations for improving your marriage relationship, where your Mom's relationship is concerned.

Ok, this is good. But I also feel that it's a healthy thing and a need of mine to see my mom. I should have brought it up in session first, and then talked to my mom about it. It took a while to get there, but I get it. But then where is the line? How long do I have to put this need of mine on the back burner? I guess it all depends on how much I want a functional marriage.

And then... .seemingly out of nowhere... .it appears you believe you are being asked to "sacrifice" your relationship with your Mom. 

So... .what specifically has your personal therapist advised you to do that is "against" what your marriage therapist is advising.

Are there other things they are advising you to do, which you are not following (such as the no unilateral action thing)?

My personal T supported my desire to push for some kind of visit. We never spoke about acting unilaterally.

I don't think that there are other things that our T has recommended that I'm not doing.

Was it ok or "safe" for your wife to say no?

I understand what you want?

What is it that your wife wants? 

I think that my wife wants to feel respected and valued by me and my mom. Expecting that that won't happen with my mom I think she would like for me to not have a relationship with my mom.

OK... .so... .your wife and therapist(s) seem to have a consistent message for you... .yet you still seem to want to continue to badger your wife about your Mom coming up.

I think she had a fairly healthy response to this.  Don't you?

I brought it up again so soon because having my mom here for our D2's birthday party is very important to me, and it's two weekends away, I guess I'm feeling pressure to come to a resolution so that she can get plane tickets, make plans, etc.

So... .what exactly did the therapist chastise you for?

If the therapist is chastising you for not following specific advice... .well... .isn't that something to be chastised for?

Fair point, I guess I felt I was expressing a need that I feel is healthy and felt that by chastising me that he was saying that that need is invalid. Not what he was saying, I'm realizing now, but that's how I perceived it.

Listen... .please fill in some knowledge gaps that I obviously have.  There are also obviously things you need to work on and set LIMITS and PRIORITIES on. 

A big part of this is trying to "repair" a relationship that has been damaged between you and your wife.  I get it you feel responsible for that, so it's natural you would want to "help". 

I would encourage you to let the therapists take the lead here... .it's likely that your "instincts" about what may "help" are flawed at the moment.  Focus on learning better skills and limits for yourself.

Hang in there man... .this stuff isn't easy!

FF

Thank you, truly. I'm exhausted but that has really made me think of thing differently, which is so so helpful.

Thank you.

[formflier]

OK... .your responses were pretty much what I figured I would hear.


A few things

Black and white thinking.  Let's be clear here... .has any person asked you to "sacrifice" your Mom (or your relationship with your Mom) for the sake of anything?

Or... .is what it appears to me to be more accurate... .that you are making your wife's "no" or lack of interest in your Mom a bigger thing than it really is.  I get it that it may "feel" that way to you... .but really... .I would suggest this is an area for you and your personal T to spend some time.

Here is a good question to ask your T.  "Is my relationship with my wife or my Mom my primary female relationship?"  "How is this impacting my relationship with both of them.?"


Ok... .big breath... .i'm going to reflect back some stuff that you have said and really want to make sure that I have this "right".

Look at patterns in your life.  There is a general thought that many times we pick a partner that "fits" the model of a person that we see in our parents.

Here's what I have heard from you.

1.  Your wife says crazy a$$ stuff.
2.  Your Mom says crazy a$$ stuff.
3.  You have an instinct or believe that some of your actions can "fix" the crazy a$$ stuff that comes out of their mouth.
4.  People that say crazy a$$ stuff tend to offend each other... .and stay offended.

Has your wife ever apologized to you Mom (and also been deliberate and obvious about changing the offending words and behavior going forward)?

Has your Mom ever apologized to your wife (and also been deliberate and obvious about changing the offending behavior going forward)?


So... .I would challenge you to read your post again.  Look at all the "situations" (nice way for saying they both said crazy a$$ stuff)... .and then look for "whose side YOU picked" or seem to be sympathetic towards.

I see a consistent "pick".  What do you see?

Am I correct this is consistent in most aspects of your life?

I'm going to challenge you to go back to the T (I think it was MC) and ask for specific examples of what "acting unilaterally" means to the T.  To be frank... .I see lots of unilateral action on your part.

Perhaps it is best if you STOP making, mentioning, hinting, discussing, any family plans to your Mom. 

What if you and your wife discussed things and then let your wife and you Mom work out the schedule?  (Boy... .wouldn't the dynamic change... .in what ways?)


OK... I've layed out lots of questions

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So... .we dudes talk to each other in a certain way.  Women talk to each other in a certain way.  Lots of time's women "say" things in a "indirect" way... .guys can tend to be more direct.

This gets interesting because a guy will take something that is said "at face value"... .somehow deal with it and declare victory and move along.  A wife will bring up something else... .and yes there is a bit of "face value" stuff there... .so a guy deals with it... .declares victory and moves along.  In guy land... .we are "fat dumb and happy" because "all the issues" have been dealt with... so what could be the problem.  Yet... .the wife is perplexed and frustrated because she is not being "heard"... .listened to... .understood.


So... .when I try to understand what you wife has been consistently saying to you... .I see a consistent message with regards to your mother.

What message do you "see" or "hear"?

FF

[Greencane]

OK... .your responses were pretty much what I figured I would hear.


A few things

Black and white thinking.  Let's be clear here... .has any person asked you to "sacrifice" your Mom (or your relationship with your Mom) for the sake of anything?

Or... .is what it appears to me to be more accurate... .that you are making your wife's "no" or lack of interest in your Mom a bigger thing than it really is.  I get it that it may "feel" that way to you... .but really... .I would suggest this is an area for you and your personal T to spend some time.

Here is a good question to ask your T.  "Is my relationship with my wife or my Mom my primary female relationship?"  "How is this impacting my relationship with both of them.?"

Very good point, and you're right. No one is asking me to sacrifice my relationship with my mom, it just feels that way to me. They are asking me to sacrifice time with her, which is a different thing. I think that my wife expresses her displeasure over all things that have to do with my mom with such rage and almost always directed at me and how I'm not protecting her and prioritizing her that it's easy to get defensive. Classic trap. I think what also plays into it is that my mom has been a constant source of support, love, and affection to me. All things that I don't get from my wife. I don't think that I'm a "momma's boy" in the sense of having an unhealthy attachment to her (although my wife tries to make me feel that way), but I know that she loves me and supports me no matter what. So when I have hate and negativity directed to me regarding a relationship that has been overwhelmingly positive, I find myself siding with the positive relationship. My wife should be my primary female relationship, no doubt, but it's so damn dysfunctional and so painful. And when I look at the pattern of my wife's relationships with her friends and family (estranged from all of her family because she alienates them when they don't conform to her standard of behavior, and a string of dropped friends for the same reason) I can see her working the same pattern on my mom (and sister and friends).

Ok... .big breath... .i'm going to reflect back some stuff that you have said and really want to make sure that I have this "right".

Look at patterns in your life.  There is a general thought that many times we pick a partner that "fits" the model of a person that we see in our parents.

Here's what I have heard from you.

1.  Your wife says crazy a$$ stuff.
2.  Your Mom says crazy a$$ stuff.
3.  You have an instinct or believe that some of your actions can "fix" the crazy a$$ stuff that comes out of their mouth.
4.  People that say crazy a$$ stuff tend to offend each other... .and stay offended.

Has your wife ever apologized to you Mom (and also been deliberate and obvious about changing the offending words and behavior going forward)?

Has your Mom ever apologized to your wife (and also been deliberate and obvious about changing the offending behavior going forward)?

Good observations, they do both say and do crazy a$$ stuff.
No apologies on either side. Apologizing is definitely not my wife's strong suit, and I have never asked my mom to. I have thought about getting them to sit down together and talk but that seems kind of fraught with peril outside of a T's office. Could go pretty wrong.

So... .I would challenge you to read your post again.  Look at all the "situations" (nice way for saying they both said crazy a$$ stuff)... .and then look for "whose side YOU picked" or seem to be sympathetic towards.

I see a consistent "pick".  What do you see?

Am I correct this is consistent in most aspects of your life?

I'm going to challenge you to go back to the T (I think it was MC) and ask for specific examples of what "acting unilaterally" means to the T.  To be frank... .I see lots of unilateral action on your part.

Perhaps it is best if you STOP making, mentioning, hinting, discussing, any family plans to your Mom. 

What if you and your wife discussed things and then let your wife and you Mom work out the schedule?  (Boy... .wouldn't the dynamic change... .in what ways?)


OK... I've layed out lots of questions

Thoughts?

FF

Very interesting idea about having them work out details for a visit, I like it. And you're right, I need to stop leaking plans to my mom.

In reflecting on all of this, I think that this unilateral action was because I'm feeling a little fatalistic and at the end of my rope. Things have been rough maritally for so long now, and I've been feeling so devalued and abused (also what she's feeling, that irony is not lost on me), that I felt the need to put my foot down and make a stand, and damn the consequences. She's been threatening divorce for long enough now that the threat has lost some of its power. Part of me wishes that she would. I'm not at that place yet, and it's a conscious decision, but I feel like if she pulled that trigger that there would be some measure of relief. So, ultimately, I need to figure out where my head's at and act accordingly because sabotage doesn't really help anyone.

It's hugely helpful to me to explore and work this out, I'm very grateful. Thank you.

[formflier]

It's hugely helpful to me to explore and work this out, I'm very grateful. Thank you.

And I would suggest it should be "hopeful" as well.

Understand many of these areas are 100% under your control (at least your side of it).

There is much here where you can show leadership.

For instance... .

1  Owning that you blew off therapist and went unilateral... .  Apologize... ask forgiveness and propose some steps for reconciliation... .listen and be open to steps your pwBPD and therapist propose.

Why is this important.  Here is what I think will happen.  You will do well at this... .you will now do what the therapist asks... .there will be improvement and when the shoe "gets on the other foot" and your wife has stuff to apologize, ask forgiveness for, and do the work for reconciliation... .it most likely will look dramatically different from what you did.

And when that happens... .that's a place where you do need to be firm (vice a trip with your Mom). 

Said another way... .that is a place where you don't need to whitewash or save her from the impact of her BPD.  It's her work to do... .let her do it.  Demand she do it.

If she doesn't... .then that is a place for you to discuss limits, discuss unilateral action... .etc etc.  (this will be slow and wise process... .but one which you must be firm on)

This is more "strategic thought" that any one conversation.

Does that make sense... .?

Last try to illustrate.

I want you to be obvious about doing your work.  I want it to be obvious if she does her work ... .or not.

I want you to invite her and the therapist to watch closely as you do your work.

If she doesn't want people involved in closely watching her work... . ... .there is work to do there.   And if it continues... .there are limits and unilateral action you will need to take.

My thoughts on reconciliation.

1.  Own it in session.
2.  Propose backing away from Mom relationship for a few months (setting limits on yourself)... .to focus on your primary relationship and to focus on you.
3.  Propose that towards the end of that few months... .the topic of you, your pwBPD and your Mom be brought up in therapy... .and worked on then.


So... .to be clear... .this really should be "set aside" for a few months... .let wounds heal... .get space.

There are obvious details to work through about how often you would call Mom... .and kids call them... .and I would discuss in therapy if your wife wants to be aware of that or not (I would insist she answer).

But the amount of contact and involvement should be dramatically less for a few months.

Again... .nobody is asking you to sacrifice anything permanently.  Sometimes things need to be "reset"... .

Obviously discuss all this with T and MC... .I'm sure they can help and guide.

FF

[mama-wolf]

I think that my wife expresses her displeasure over all things that have to do with my mom with such rage and almost always directed at me and how I'm not protecting her and prioritizing her that it's easy to get defensive.

I think what also plays into it is that my mom has been a constant source of support, love, and affection to me. All things that I don't get from my wife.

I don't think that I'm a "momma's boy" in the sense of having an unhealthy attachment to her (although my wife tries to make me feel that way), but I know that she loves me and supports me no matter what. So when I have hate and negativity directed to me regarding a relationship that has been overwhelmingly positive, I find myself siding with the positive relationship.

Oh, man... .Greencane the parallels with the situation between my uBPDw and my mom are so strong.  I have always had a close relationship with my mom... .as adults, we're good friends in addition to the parental relationship.  She is so supportive, wants to be engaged with my kids, and wants me to be happy.

I don't think I have had quite the level of rage directed at me from my uBPDw about my relationship with my mom as you have, at least not until recent months.  More recently, her anger and frustration over not being able to influence me away from my mom as much as she would like has clearly escalated.  I am continually questioned about any time I want to spend with my mom.  About things I may offer to do for my mom.  About agreeing with my mom about something that my wife may disagree about (in uBPDw's eyes, this indicates I value my mom's opinion more than hers, regardless of my own ability to think critically and have my own opinions).

As far as who should be the primary relationship, etc.  I know I married my wife and chose to build a family with her.  That should never mean devaluing my mom or allowing my strong relationship with my mom to atrophy solely to validate the invalid expectations/feelings of my wife.  It has taken me 15+ years to recognize the pattern of isolation that I have fallen into due to uBPDw's behavior, and for me that's unacceptable.

Things have been rough maritally for so long now, and I've been feeling so devalued and abused (also what she's feeling, that irony is not lost on me), that I felt the need to put my foot down and make a stand, and damn the consequences.

Yes, same.  Regardless of what I want, what I think, what my values may be, I get  "I just want to be heard"  (again, the expectation is that I not only hear, but agree with her)... ."Why would you prioritize x (small chore) for your mom over y (major project) that you haven't done yet?"... ."If I gave you some time to have to your self, why would you spend any portion of that getting coffee with your mom?"

I recognize that FF is giving you some very concrete advice on how to address the situation... .I just wanted to share I can really relate to where you're coming from.

mw

[formflier]

Yes, same.  Regardless of what I want, what I think, what my values may be, I get  "I just want to be heard"  (again, the expectation is that I not only hear, but agree with her)... ."Why would you prioritize x (small chore) for your mom over y (major project) that you haven't done yet?"... ."If I gave you some time to have to your self, why would you spend any portion of that getting coffee with your mom?"

This kind of stuff is usually used to "probe" for disloyalty or perhaps it gets used to invite you to fight or have a circular argument.

Very frustrating stuff.

Usually the best answer is a "shrug"... ."I dunno... .it just felt like the right thing to do... ."   pause... .(then hand it back to them)  "Why do you ask?"

let them wrestle with it... without you getting drawn in.

If they want to suggest a different way... .thank them for the effort and assure them that you will reach out... .if you are ever confused or want guidance.

if they start demanding that you accept their guidance... .best to be befuddled... .puzzled

Let them know this is new stuff to you and you need time to reflect on it... .disengage.

FF

[Greencane]

Oh, man... .Greencane the parallels with the situation between my uBPDw and my mom are so strong.  I have always had a close relationship with my mom... .as adults, we're good friends in addition to the parental relationship.  She is so supportive, wants to be engaged with my kids, and wants me to be happy.

I don't think I have had quite the level of rage directed at me from my uBPDw about my relationship with my mom as you have, at least not until recent months.  More recently, her anger and frustration over not being able to influence me away from my mom as much as she would like has clearly escalated.  I am continually questioned about any time I want to spend with my mom.  About things I may offer to do for my mom.  About agreeing with my mom about something that my wife may disagree about (in uBPDw's eyes, this indicates I value my mom's opinion more than hers, regardless of my own ability to think critically and have my own opinions).

As far as who should be the primary relationship, etc.  I know I married my wife and chose to build a family with her.  That should never mean devaluing my mom or allowing my strong relationship with my mom to atrophy solely to validate the invalid expectations/feelings of my wife.  It has taken me 15+ years to recognize the pattern of isolation that I have fallen into due to uBPDw's behavior, and for me that's unacceptable.

Mama-wolf: I don't know what it is about the human condition, but when you're suffering, just knowing that someone else is going through the same thing makes it a little easier. So thank you for sharing.

Yes, same.  Regardless of what I want, what I think, what my values may be, I get  "I just want to be heard"  (again, the expectation is that I not only hear, but agree with her)... ."Why would you prioritize x (small chore) for your mom over y (major project) that you haven't done yet?"... ."If I gave you some time to have to your self, why would you spend any portion of that getting coffee with your mom?"

Yes! If I had a nickel for every time we've been discussing something and she's said, "Will you just agree with me?" I'd have a lot of nickels. She doesn't want devil's advocate or even thoughtful, intellectual discussion, she just wants to feel supported.

I recognize that FF is giving you some very concrete advice on how to address the situation... .I just wanted to share I can really relate to where you're coming from.

mw

I appreciate the support. 

[Greencane]

And I would suggest it should be "hopeful" as well.

Understand many of these areas are 100% under your control (at least your side of it).

There is much here where you can show leadership.

For instance... .

1  Owning that you blew off therapist and went unilateral... .  Apologize... ask forgiveness and propose some steps for reconciliation... .listen and be open to steps your pwBPD and therapist propose.

Why is this important.  Here is what I think will happen.  You will do well at this... .you will now do what the therapist asks... .there will be improvement and when the shoe "gets on the other foot" and your wife has stuff to apologize, ask forgiveness for, and do the work for reconciliation... .it most likely will look dramatically different from what you did.

And when that happens... .that's a place where you do need to be firm (vice a trip with your Mom). 

Said another way... .that is a place where you don't need to whitewash or save her from the impact of her BPD.  It's her work to do... .let her do it.  Demand she do it.

If she doesn't... .then that is a place for you to discuss limits, discuss unilateral action... .etc etc.  (this will be slow and wise process... .but one which you must be firm on)

This is more "strategic thought" that any one conversation.

Does that make sense... .?

Last try to illustrate.

I want you to be obvious about doing your work.  I want it to be obvious if she does her work ... .or not.

I want you to invite her and the therapist to watch closely as you do your work.

If she doesn't want people involved in closely watching her work... . ... .there is work to do there.   And if it continues... .there are limits and unilateral action you will need to take.

My thoughts on reconciliation.

1.  Own it in session.
2.  Propose backing away from Mom relationship for a few months (setting limits on yourself)... .to focus on your primary relationship and to focus on you.
3.  Propose that towards the end of that few months... .the topic of you, your pwBPD and your Mom be brought up in therapy... .and worked on then.


So... .to be clear... .this really should be "set aside" for a few months... .let wounds heal... .get space.

There are obvious details to work through about how often you would call Mom... .and kids call them... .and I would discuss in therapy if your wife wants to be aware of that or not (I would insist she answer).

But the amount of contact and involvement should be dramatically less for a few months.

Again... .nobody is asking you to sacrifice anything permanently.  Sometimes things need to be "reset"... .

Obviously discuss all this with T and MC... .I'm sure they can help and guide.

FF

Man, you are a straight up ninja. You could hang out a shingle.

This is excellent, very useful advice. I've already apologized, did it tonight (got the silent treatment back), and was sincere. It was an impulsive move to talk to my mom before my wife. I'm just not sure if I'm in a place to follow the rest of your suggestions. If I were wholehearted, raring to go, ready to make more big sacrifices to better this relationship then I'd be doing it. But I'm not. It's already been 5 months since I and the kids have seen my mom, I don't think I'm ready to add even more time on to that. I feel like that would be sacrificing my integrity, it feels wrong to me. If this means that the marriage ends, then so be it.

FF, I hope that you're not insulted or offended, and I hope you will continue to give me advice in the future because I highly value your thoughts.

I meet with my T tomorrow and we meet with our joint T on Monday so I'm tabling things until then.

-GC

[formflier]

I'm just not sure if I'm in a place to follow the rest of your suggestions. If I were wholehearted, raring to go, ready to make more big sacrifices to better this relationship then I'd be doing it. But I'm not. 

I'm not offended at all... .I'm glad you have thought this through and have sorted out your values.

Now... .you still need to show ownership of that.  Next session... .be clear with your T, with the MC... .and your wife.

This is the end of the changes I'm willing to make.  Ask your pwBPD if she is at the end of her willingness...

Once there is clarity there... .you can march off on your new direction in life.

I'll make one last analogy. 

It appears to me you've known for a while you aren't willing to make the changes the T specifically recommended... .yet you sorta tried and then sorta didn't, which left you in "the middle of the road" sort of vacillating back and forth.

Well... .what happens to people that stand in the middle of the road ... .if they stand there long enough?

Now that you have picked... .let people know... .seek your T and MC advice in how to structure your actions to support your pick (please follow their advice).

FF

[Greencane]

I'm not offended at all... .I'm glad you have thought this through and have sorted out your values.

Now... .you still need to show ownership of that.  Next session... .be clear with your T, with the MC... .and your wife.

This is the end of the changes I'm willing to make.  Ask your pwBPD if she is at the end of her willingness...

Once there is clarity there... .you can march off on your new direction in life.

I'll make one last analogy. 

It appears to me you've known for a while you aren't willing to make the changes the T specifically recommended... .yet you sorta tried and then sorta didn't, which left you in "the middle of the road" sort of vacillating back and forth.

Well... .what happens to people that stand in the middle of the road ... .if they stand there long enough?

Now that you have picked... .let people know... .seek your T and MC advice in how to structure your actions to support your pick (please follow their advice).

FF

Wife was out of town for the weekend, just me and the D2. Tried to put this stuff on hold for a few days.

Had a good session with my T on Friday, we're meeting again with our joint T tomorrow.

Good call on the karate kid advice and being more transparent.

Thanks, all, for the advice.

-GC