When does Commitment become Unhealthy in a BPD r/s?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Friends,

Presumably most of us were in love with our BPD SOs, which often brings a sense of commitment to the r/s.  For some of us, including me, marriage brought another level of commitment, and I took my vows seriously.

Yet at some point, my commitment brought me into unhealthy territory.  My inner compass indicated that I had veered way off course on my journey.  Instead of being a positive quality, my commitment turned into something self-destructive.  In a sense, I was chasing a white whale that nearly caused me to drown.

Perhaps others have taken a similar journey?

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

Presumably most of us were in love with our BPD SOs, which often brings a sense of commitment to the r/s.  For some of us, including me, marriage brought another level of commitment, and I took my vows seriously.

Yet at some point, my commitment brought me into unhealthy territory.  My inner compass indicated that I had veered way off course on my journey.  Instead of being a positive quality, my commitment turned into something self-destructive.  In a sense, I was chasing a white whale that nearly caused me to drown.

Perhaps others have taken a similar journey?

LuckyJim

[Struggler123]

Friends,

Presumably most of us were in love with our BPD SOs, which often brings a sense of commitment to the r/s.  For some of us, including me, marriage brought another level of commitment, and I took my vows seriously.

Yet at some point, my commitment brought me into unhealthy territory.  My inner compass indicated that I had veered way off course on my journey.  Instead of being a positive quality, my commitment turned into something self-destructive.  In a sense, I was chasing a white whale that nearly caused me to drown.

Perhaps others have taken a similar journey?

LuckyJim

That actually hit home for me, my ex and I were on and off for a year. Ultimately, 75% of our problems were associated with commitment and her need to get married asap and I couldn’t give that to her. I mean how could I considering we broke up 4-5x, i would be on top of the world and the rug mat the next day, long story short, she gave me ultimatiums and then eventually she told me a couple of days ago, im getting married to this guy, and are you okay with this, I acting like the good guy said if he can keep you happy then go for it, she said yes 3 hours later. Now here I am, thinking that could have been me if I didn’t have boundaries. I’m still learning, still trying to figure out why I feel like crap. But thats how it is. Is the commitment worth it. I honestly don’t know.

[zachira]

You are asking about when does commitment become unhealthy. I believe it becomes unhealthy once we realize we cannot trust the person who we are in a relationship with because we never know when and how they are going to act badly and mistreat us.

[Struggler123]

You are asking about when does commitment become unhealthy. I believe it becomes unhealthy once we realize we cannot trust the person who we are in a relationship with because we never know when and how they are going to act badly and mistreat us.

I completely agree with this statement 100%, when me and my ex broke up 4x back and forth I promised myself I was not getting back with her, then I remember she went to great lengths to get back with me, and we did. But, I always had a guard up and when she asked for a commitment, a few months after that I couldn't give it to her because deep down it didn't feel right and I wasn't ready for it because I needed to have my career in order, and thats when she left 4 days was all it took, to decide that she wanted to marry someone else, and was "happy" with him. It's sad but its true. We can give into all of their demands, but at the end we're always the bad ones.

[Lucky Jim]

Sure, loss of trust is one of the symptoms.  What I'm getting at is when commitment, normally an admirable quality, actually becomes a liability, because it's causing you to suffer abuse.  In other words, if a pwBPD knows that his/her spouse or partner is committed to staying for personal, religious or moral reasons, it becomes a kind of license for the pwBPD to behave badly and only perpetuates the abuse.  Boundaries help, of course, but they only protect you and don't necessarily cause the pwBPD to change.

In the name of commitment to my marriage, I ended up exhausting all my physical, emotional and financial  resources, to the point that I was driving myself into the ground by staying committed to a something that was harmful to my health and well-being.  I was so caught-up in the BPD turmoil that I was unable to jump ship before hitting the hitting the bottom, which believe me was not fun.

Maybe others can relate to this experience?

LuckyJim

LuckyJim

[Struggler123]

Sure, loss of trust is one of the symptoms.  What I'm getting at is when commitment, normally an admirable quality, actually becomes a liability, because it's causing you to suffer abuse.  In other words, if a pwBPD knows that his/her spouse or partner is committed to staying for personal, religious or moral reasons, it becomes a kind of license for the pwBPD to behave badly and only perpetuates the abuse.  Boundaries help, of course, but they only protect you and don't necessarily cause the pwBPD to change.

In the name of commitment to my marriage, I ended up exhausting all my physical, emotional and financial  resources, to the point that I was driving myself into the ground by staying committed to a something that was harmful to my health and well-being.  I was so caught-up in the BPD turmoil that I was unable to jump ship before hitting the hitting the bottom, which believe me was not fun.

Maybe others can relate to this experience?

LuckyJim

LuckyJim

I'm so sorry to hear that, I knew BPD was bad but I didn't know it could be so severe. To be honest, Jim im gonna seem like a stupid person, but despite seeing all of the unsuccessful stories, I still thought that you know someone that remains 100% commited could actually make BPD work, but I didn't know of the struggles in my case my gf was so on board about the whole marriage thing, she tried every tactic to get me to nudge in but I couldn't do it, and then eventually at the last straw, she found the new guy, and even then she told me that if only I had made the initative it was almost as if she wanted me to compete, and be like im ready to marry you now because I dont want to see you with anyone else. She pretended like it was all my fault, but that was my greatest fear, to get into this relationship and then having to go through everything on repeat. At first I blamed myself and thought that if I had married her it would have cured everything, even the times that she would get angry out of thin air, but if you don't mind me asking, if I were to ask you, had I married her, would it have fixed anything? Honestly theres no wrong or right answer, but I'd really appreciate your intake on it, and I'd really like to hear your story, I hope that by telling us that, it will help you on your road to recovery as well, and shine some light to me as well.

I apologize if this seems stupid.

Thanks,

[Harri]

Hi Lucky Jim.  I am with you on taking commitment too far.  Way past the point of healthy and way past the point where any healthy person would have walked away.  I was staying to give myself one more chance to change things, to try harder, to fix the situation.  I don't give up easily on anything.  I get so focused on the goal and not being a quitter, having to prove myself in terms of how strong I am, that my word can be trusted.  That I am honorable.  So no, I don't give up easily on anything or anyone except myself.  I sell myself out all the time.

I write this in present tense because I am not at all sure I have passed this point entirely.  I am fairly sure this is something I am going to have to watch very carefully as it is not something I am usually aware of (holding on beyond all reason).

[Struggler123]

Hi Lucky Jim.  I am with you on taking commitment too far.  Way past the point of healthy and way past the point where any healthy person would have walked away.  I was staying to give myself one more chance to change things, to try harder, to fix the situation.  I don't give up easily on anything.  I get so focused on the goal and not being a quitter, having to prove myself in terms of how strong I am, that my word can be trusted.  That I am honorable.  So no, I don't give up easily on anything or anyone except myself.  I sell myself out all the time.

I write this in present tense because I am not at all sure I have passed this point entirely.  I am fairly sure this is something I am going to have to watch very carefully as it is not something I am usually aware of (holding on beyond all reason).

Reading your comments, I have a question for you Harri. I like you have a personality like that as well, but at the end the question is, is it worth it to push yourself so much and at the end gain nothing out of it except misery, terrors, blame. The question is when is "enough is enough." Can a BPD ever be satisified, can BPD hear the word no to a demand, and accept it, thats the question.

[Harri]

Hi Struggler.

I agree, the question is when is enough enough.  I also have to ask myself 'to what end?'.  I have realized it is not worth it to push that far but only after nearly losing myself in the process.  The thing is, I do this with everything, not just in BPD relationships.  This is one of the issues/behaviors I bring to the table. 

[Lucky Jim]

I am with you on taking commitment too far.  Way past the point of healthy and way past the point where any healthy person would have walked away.  I was staying to give myself one more chance to change things, to try harder, to fix the situation.  I don't give up easily on anything.  I get so focused on the goal and not being a quitter, having to prove myself in terms of how strong I am, that my word can be trusted.  That I am honorable.  So no, I don't give up easily on anything or anyone except myself.  I sell myself out all the time.

Harri: Right, Harri, that's exactly what I'm talking about.  LJ

[Waveney]

Hi Lucky Jim,
I think this is a great question and it really had me thinking. I do relate to your experience. My pwBPD periodically says "you'll never leave", even though she has been physically and emotionally abusive, has cheated on me (although she doesn't know I know that), expects me to accept that our relationship has to be a secret (to facilitate the cheating, but her rationale is other people's homophobia), and is leading me into debt. So I do think that her belief in my commitment gives her a licence to be abusive towards me, even though she is able to control herself around other people (except for her mother, who she also abuses).

I am in the process of trying to leave, and really struggling with this. My very few remaining friends all tell me my thinking is distorted, because this is abuse and I should leave immediately, but somehow my commitment to her is creating conflict inside me, where I put up with this abuse because I make excuses for it and she does it because somehow she feels secure enough to do so. I have been wondering lately about whether my commitment is a huge part of the problem.   

[Lucky Jim]

the question is when is enough enough.  I also have to ask myself 'to what end?'.  I have realized it is not worth it to push that far but only after nearly losing myself in the process.

Let me try an analogy: it takes guts and commitment to climb a mountain like Mt. Everest, yet at some point a skilled climber knows when it's time to turn back.  Some of those who push on never make it back down.

Like you, Harri, I'm sort of an over-achiever and think I can overcome most challenges with determination and focus, yet I never cracked the BPD Code.  The disorder proved way too complex for me, yet I was like that mountain climber who doesn't know when to turn back.  A healthier person would probably have run for the hills.

LuckyJim

[Harri]

Hi again Lucky Jim.  Crack the BPD Code... .that made me laugh, but at myself. 

My T recently said that I was totally out of my league when trying to deal with a uBPD roommate.  Then she said: "Harri, she'll run circles around you".  So true and that was with just a roommate, not someone I had romantic feelings about. 

I think part of the problem is that I would have partial success in getting through or climbing higher only to fall back down.  I only paid attention the the small successes.  Sometimes when I read posts here that talk about making progress or going for 3 weeks or even 3 months without a 'BPD incident' and again ask 'to what end?'.  Is that how we measure success?  (I realize everyone has their own answer to that.  I am just stating where my thoughts take *me*)

The thing with climbing Mount Everest is that once you succeed you are done.  Mission accomplished.  Mount BPD is a never ending climb as the peak keeps changing.  Combine that with my own characteristic of being determined and not giving up? 

When to holler uncle!

[Struggler123]

Let me try an analogy: it takes guts and commitment to climb a mountain like Mt. Everest, yet at some point a skilled climber knows when it's time to turn back.  Some of those who push on never make it back down.

Like you, Harri, I'm sort of an over-achiever and think I can overcome most challenges with determination and focus, yet I never cracked the BPD Code.  The disorder proved way too complex for me, yet I was like that mountain climber who doesn't know when to turn back.  A healthier person would probably have run for the hills.

LuckyJim

For the longest time I felt there was something wrong with me. That I don’t deserve all the attention and “love” she gave me. I thought I could outsmart the BPD code if I had only kept my wall up, but the truth is, the wall was only able to stop me from the concept of marriage, but the damage was already done. I was able to keep myself together, because I held back from commitment, but I apologize for the struggle your going through and I want you to know, for everyday that you keep yourself as a whole is a victory for you and remember no mountains are climbed overnight and better days are waiting for you. I pray and hope you reach the best you can be. Its so weird how someone with BPD can make you seem like the source of all the problems.

[Lucky Jim]

Mount BPD is a never ending climb as the peak keeps changing.  Combine that with my own characteristic of being determined and not giving up?  When to holler uncle!

Yup, Mt. BPD is a moving target (to mix metaphors!).  Sure, I would make small gains and think I was getting closer to cracking the Code, only to have everything crash down again.  I would pick myself up and try another route up the mountain.  

I believed in my ability to make my BPD r/s work, yet it turned out I was kidding myself.  Based on my own inner drive and commitment, I refused to give up, like the climber who continues up the mountain when he should turn back.

I don't give up easily on anything.  I get so focused on the goal and not being a quitter, having to prove myself in terms of how strong I am, that my word can be trusted.  That I am honorable.  So no, I don't give up easily on anything or anyone except myself.  I sell myself out all the time.

Yes, I thought that I was doing the honorable thing.  It feels good to see oneself as the loyal White Knight, even though I was deluding myself.

When to holler uncle!

That's the right question, I think, but I'm uncertain about the answer, which is why I'm posing it to you wise folks!

LuckyJim

[Seenowayout]

I want to challenge the well meaning self-soothing back patting I read about being honorable and taking marriage seriously, etc etc.

Mine left me.  And after a year without her, I'm OK, but I'm still scarred.  I think about her everyday still.

Before reading this thread I was sitting here thinking to myself -- what's wrong with me.  She was absolutely crazy and abusive and really never did anything nice for me.   She made me dinner one time the entire time we were together, she bought me a few little things, but mostly she raged at me constantly, accused me of the silliest stuff, was a terrible house keeper, wasn't well read, and frankly -- boring.  i was always carrying the conversation, which if I did for too long eventually led me to saying something that would start a fight.

So why did I lover her?  Why did I long for her?  Why do I still carry this scar?  If she didn't leave me I would still be doing that crazy BPD push me pull you dance.  I would call it commitment, trying to help her, being the white knight -- but really it was addiction.

Am I forgetting the positives with time?  Or was I just more sick than she was?  What is it about me that needed that?

I think the thing to remember with BPD's (and every relationship) is that commitment is a two way street.  As is compromise, empathy, understanding -- and love.

[Sunfl0wer]

Commitment in itself is never a “bad” thing.

What causes issues is when a person allows their internal moral compass to drift.  Their values shift.  They start demonstrating that they are willing to let go, little by little, loving themself enough, respecting themself enough and being committed to self love.

When we put the other person above us... .we are NOT acting for the betterment of the commitment to the relationship.

We teach people how to treat us.  If we are treating ourselves poorly then we also are making poor deposits into the dynamic of the “committed relationship.”

Being codependent (aka having poorly defined sense of self and sense of boundaries) does not help the other person.
It does not help us.
It does not contribute to commitment of the relationship at all.

[Harri]

I've been thinking about that question and fortunately Sunflower beat me to it.  

What causes issues is when a person allows their internal moral compass to drift.

Yes.  When I catch myself not listening to my moral compass or as i am taking this, my gut. I can feel it in my stomach.  That knotted dread feeling.  The beginning of resentment.  Those are the signals I need to listen to that are telling me to stop.  Or maybe even then it is too late?

Sorry if I am not answering directly Luck Jim but that is all I have at this point.  I am going to sit this out now and see what others say.  I understood the question I'm just still not sure of the answer.

[Lucky Jim]

What causes issues is when a person allows their internal moral compass to drift.  Their values shift.  They start demonstrating that they are willing to let go, little by little, loving themself enough, respecting themself enough and being committed to self love.

Nicely said, SunflOwer.  Right, I lost my inner compass.  No, I didn't love myself enough, which is something I work hard on today.  No, I didn't respect myself enough, which has taken time to get back.  No, I didn't know about being committed to self-love, which is essential for me going forward.

So those are all things that I had to learn in the aftermath of my Marriage.  In that sense, being married to a pwBPD provided a crucible for new growth.  That's the gift one gets, I think, after a BPD r/s.

I would add that being the object of someone's abuse makes it that much harder to maintain self-respect and self-love, so it's a slippery slope when one starts putting up with abuse (as most of us Nons have done).

LJ

[zachira]

The talk about letting our internal moral compass shift when we compromise our values in a relationship is pure gold, as far as understanding what we need to do to avoid and recover from relationships with people with BPD. I have noticed quite frequently that the people with the highest self esteem have gentle kind ways of bringing out the best in others and they often genuinely feel sorry for people who are acting badly. I am going to imprint it on my forehead that the next time I repeatedly allow someone to treat me badly, that I am letting my internal moral compass shift and compromising my values. Being a caretaker is not taking the high road when it is rescuing people that need to be held to higher standards. People with BPD often know how to behave just fine in public yet feel free to mistreat those closest to them.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I think it depends on the person. For me, I didn't realize my ex was probably BPD until after I divorced him. I realized he was NPD before I divorced him which was partly why I divorced him. It was too much for me, even after 20 years of being together. I had hit my rock bottom and had to leave or I felt I would probably die (no exaggeration).

I was committed to our marriage for years. Looking back, I think it was out of a sense of duty, not love. I stopped loving him years before the divorce. When we had kids (not planned), I stayed with him for them, probably from guilt and obligation. Long story short, push came to shove and I broke down realizing how miserable I was. We went to a marriage counselor. She helped me realize I probably had PTSD from being in abusive relationships my entire life. My now-ex was emotionally abusive and I didn't know it. I went to a trauma specialist. She officially diagnosed me with PTSD and I did EMDR sessions with her (I still do). This was only a few years ago.

As I started to heal, his abusive behaviors became more and more apparent to me. Not only could I not unsee any of it, his behavior got worse! I now know (didn't know at the time) that I had triggered his abandonment issues which explains a lot of it. We tried a couple of marriage counselors but he was determined I was the problem and he was basically a saint. He justified his abuse and it kept getting worse. It got to the point where he triggered me on purpose (only a few weeks into EMDR) until I was in a sobbing heap on the floor and then he told me I was unstable and a danger to the children. I knew right then and there I had to get out or I would probably die (probably suicide). I am so very very thankful I got out and divorced him. It was a nightmarish hell but I managed to get through it and have never been happier.

I think commitment becomes unhealthy when someone is suffering deeply. When you become isolated from your friends and family. When you lose yourself in the name of "commitment".

[Lucky Jim]

I think commitment becomes unhealthy when someone is suffering deeply. When you become isolated from your friends and family. When you lose yourself in the name of "commitment".

Agree, I Am The Fire: I lost myself in the name of commitment and forgot who I was for a while there, which was not fun.  As SunflOwer suggests, I lost my inner compass.  I gave up an inch of my core values here, there, time and again, and pretty soon I had lost a mile of ground.  My commitment became my undoing.  With better boundaries, I might have made an earlier exit; instead, I stayed and after a while was just beating a dead horse.

LJ

[Sunfl0wer]

Fwiw... .
I spend a lot of time reading on a variety of these boards.
I see a pattern of members who appear to be managing the relationship with their pwBPD.

Here is my observation... .
The ones who seem to keep their sanity/general “stability” are ones committed to a high degree of ongoing RA and acceptance of their partners limitations as a partner.  They are willing to work within the parameters of the persons limits.  (A skill we will need for ANY great relationship)

The ones imo, that are fairing better (very few), than many others... .are the ones who are NOT committed to the partnership “at any cost.”

Instead they are commited to a predetermined image of what they feel is the least acceptable situation between them to cause them to stay or leave.

The pw BPD will always act like a pinball ball and test and seek out to feel those boundaries in a tangible way.

The members who are fairing more stable than others in the dynamic appear to be able to be that rock in a sea of chaos and let go of “trying to affect” their partner... .they instead rather hold strong to their values as they are committed to a relationship where they are respecting themself and also respecting their pwBPD.

They behave in a way that best reflects their commitment to their values they NEED generally as a person they respect and values for this relationship (while maintaining respectful RA awareness of partners limitations) and they let go of the outcome from there.  They accept the reality that by them holding fast to these clear predetermined values, they may indeed lose the “partner” (as the pwBPD is lashing out with protest behaviors and threats, etc) ... .yet, they MUST be willing to take such a risk always.  It is the only way.  (As the pwBPD will be constantly and consistently testing these as part of a “necessary” dynamic that they will always play out.)

(It almost seems that anything less is simply participating in an emotionally abusive dynamic)

[Lucky Jim]

Great observations, Sunflower!   

It almost seems that anything less is simply participating in an emotionally abusive dynamic

Yup, and a lot of us, including me, participated in that emotionally abusive dynamic, by virtue of being committed to our BPD r/s "at any cost," which is what this thread is about.  Agree about the need to hold fast to one's values at the risk of losing the r/s, though I wasn't strong enough to do it until my marriage had reached a terminal stage.

The difficulty with this approach, it seems to me, is that one has to be able to withstand the onslaught from the pwBPD (rage, lashing out, threats), which is a tall order.  Hey, we're human!  It's hard for most of us to accept unkind, degrading and abusive behavior from our SO on a regular basis.  Who needs it?  Life is short!

LuckyJim

[Sunfl0wer]

The difficulty with this approach, it seems to me, is that one has to be able to withstand the onslaught from the pwBPD (rage, lashing out, threats), which is a tall order.  Hey, we're human!

Humm... .thx, seems I missed some nuances in my message.

I am not at all suggesting one should or should not partner with a pwBPD and weather the storm.

No one HAS to withstand anything!  Yet, if someone does, that is certainly a choice.  This is all about choosing relationships and choosing relational dynamics.

I’m actually saying the opposite... .
If you do not want rage in your relationship on a daily basis... .simply behave in a way that communicates that value.  Do so clearly, methodically, and with no apologies.  Don’t be afraid of the consequences... .be proud you are being the partner that you respect of yourself.

As soon as you enter a pattern of “tolerating” behaviors that are absolutely unacceptable to your definition of a partnership... .Your behavior IS in fact clearly defining what type of behaviors and relationships you will accept.

Make that stuff unacceptable!  (That is if you find that to be your value.  Some staying members tolerate a certain amount of anger as RA, then simply walk away for self care when needed... .it is all choice tho... it does not have to be laying yourself out for abuse.)

Not partnering with someone below our maturity level is more than simply picking better.  (Imo)
It is behaving better.
It is accepting better.
Behaving better is more than our actions in any given moment.
It is about knowing our values, working on staying true to them.  Learning how to live them.
Trusting that if we hold fast to our values, then we will reap the benefits.
For some of us... .
The benefit of setting down boundaries that reflected our values actually ended the relationship.  That is actually a benefit!  How could one go wrong with that approach?  Idk

[Lucky Jim]

It is about knowing our values, working on staying true to them.  Learning how to live them.
Trusting that if we hold fast to our values, then we will reap the benefits.

Agree, it's about being authentic to one's core values.  I ignored my gut feelings and suffered the consequences.

I was afraid to risk losing my marriage because, at that time, we had two young children.  I felt that I owed it to my kids to provide a stabilizing influence in their lives, to counterbalance the BPD turmoil.  I wanted to be able to look them in the eye someday and say, I tried everything.  Whether I'll get that chance remains to be seen.

LuckyJim

[JNChell]

This is a great thread for reflection. Personally, my commitment to her and our little family nearly cost me everything. It was very unhealthy. Looking back, I spent a lot of time relentlessly chasing her and I gave up most of what I enjoy in life because my focus was solely on her much of the time. I tossed aside my interests, loved ones, values and boundaries to try to get this woman to see me, and I completely lost myself in pursuit of her. I’ve changed, but not for the better. Fortunately, I’m able to recognize this and accepting of the work I need to put in to evolve into the person I’d like to be. I chose an unhealthy attachment and committed to it with everything I had. That speaks volumes to me about where I’m at in my journey, but I’m glad that I’m now aware. I was damaged and unhealthy long before I ventured into the world of romantic love. Several of my partners were as well. I can’t place all of the blame on them, and I do genuinely feel for them. I wonder how they are doing at times now.

Back on point, that is my experience of an unhealthy commitment. I never want to end up there again. Great thread, Lucky Jim! Thanks!