Unclear situation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello,
 I've been dating a woman for about 3 1/2 months. It began nicely with mutual interest. Before long, I realized that communications were one-sided conversationally, with her not speaking much and myself having to introduce topics to keep the conversation going. In addition, in person, I was initiating any physicality, with her seeming less interested. Texting was equally mutual, yet obviously the most superficial of the communications listed, and least meaningful in our personal experience. The one thing I have noticed though, is her consistent enthusiasm with introducing me to her two teenage
daughters. At first, I didn't pay much attention to this, until, over time it seemed to stand out. I stayed over three times, until I began to get weary.

It just seemed odd to me. Maybe an old theme reappearing: Hey Mr.Single, meet my kids and form a relationship with them. Or possibly: Hey Mr.Single, we want you at our house (and start taking the trash out when you visit). Or, what? What's weird though, is I can't get her to stay the night with me. Both of her off-spring are in high-school. They are old enough to babysit themselves, certainly.

Well, in addition to unequal seeming amounts of interest, another new piece of info has turned up. There is speculation among the psychiatric authorities that the oldest daughter may have BPD. Now, staying at their house seems like a terrible option. I don't feel like it's a good idea. The woman I've been dating is a work-aholic too. There is hardly any time for us to get together. She won't stay with me, and I don't feel comfortable staying over there anymore. We have no options for being physical together.

The situation seems to have no space for progression. I feel like my main option, is to begin putting boundaries up, reducing my expectations, and taking this as the limited friendship that it appears to be developing into.

If upon reading this, you have any insight, I would appreciate your feedback. If, you do not; please don't dig for something to say. Any relevant feedback is appreciated. Thanks ahead of time!

[Circle]

Hello,
 I've been dating a woman for about 3 1/2 months. It began nicely with mutual interest. Before long, I realized that communications were one-sided conversationally, with her not speaking much and myself having to introduce topics to keep the conversation going. In addition, in person, I was initiating any physicality, with her seeming less interested. Texting was equally mutual, yet obviously the most superficial of the communications listed, and least meaningful in our personal experience. The one thing I have noticed though, is her consistent enthusiasm with introducing me to her two teenage
daughters. At first, I didn't pay much attention to this, until, over time it seemed to stand out. I stayed over three times, until I began to get weary.

It just seemed odd to me. Maybe an old theme reappearing: Hey Mr.Single, meet my kids and form a relationship with them. Or possibly: Hey Mr.Single, we want you at our house (and start taking the trash out when you visit). Or, what? What's weird though, is I can't get her to stay the night with me. Both of her off-spring are in high-school. They are old enough to babysit themselves, certainly.

Well, in addition to unequal seeming amounts of interest, another new piece of info has turned up. There is speculation among the psychiatric authorities that the oldest daughter may have BPD. Now, staying at their house seems like a terrible option. I don't feel like it's a good idea. The woman I've been dating is a work-aholic too. There is hardly any time for us to get together. She won't stay with me, and I don't feel comfortable staying over there anymore. We have no options for being physical together.

The situation seems to have no space for progression. I feel like my main option, is to begin putting boundaries up, reducing my expectations, and taking this as the limited friendship that it appears to be developing into.

If upon reading this, you have any insight, I would appreciate your feedback. If, you do not; please don't dig for something to say. Any relevant feedback is appreciated. Thanks ahead of time!

[formflier]

So when you ask her for her thoughts about reciprocating and staying over with you... .what does she say?

How many conversations have you had about it?

Is she consistent in what she says?

Does she express her values when she discusses her decisions?

FF

[Circle]

So when you ask her for her thoughts about reciprocating and staying over with you... .what does she say?
*She just brushes it off, non-chalantly, without explanation, like it's not going to happen. Then, she switches back toward my staying over there. Which, I explain I am not comfortable with.

How many conversations have you had about it?
*I've brought the logistical option up many times, maybe seven. We have had maybe four not in-depth conversations about it, such as in question 1.

Is she consistent in what she says?
*Yes, it's always, well, the kids have no problem with you being there. Or, how are they going to feel if you don't visit? Or, just brushing it off/ignoring the option of staying at my place.

Does she express her values when she discusses her decisions?
*Only in regards to her kids. Such as, 'How are they going to feel if you don't stay?'
Which seems ridiculous and contrived to me, because I have only hung out with them maybe four or five times over 3 1/2 months. One time she did slip 'That's not the plan.' It was an offhand remark, which I did not follow up on.

Thanks for your help F.F.
Appreciated, C

[BasementDweller]

Hi, Circle -

Welcome! This sounds like a frustrating situation. It's not entirely new to me, as I have a BPDbf with two teenage sons. We live together now, but in the first six months of our relationship, that wasn't the case.

While your partner's kids are not babies, and surely not dependent on her for basic care - could it be that she is not comfortable with leaving her kids alone to stay at someone else's house, and feeling like she is merely catering to her own needs, and sort of leaving them to their own devices? This probably isn't her norm.

My partner was a single dad for ten years before meeting me. He had dates, and maybe a girlfriend or two stuck around for a couple of years, but nobody got really close and he had no "serious" partner he wanted to live with, prior to us meeting. His boys were his everything, and leaving them alone to go spend the night with a woman seemed wrong to him. When we started to date, he wanted me to meet them, and to be here with them if we were to spend the night together, but he felt odd about leaving them to stay with me at my house. They were teenagers, but still quite young.

I think this boils down to parental attachment/responsibilities and isn't about us. Our partners have kids, and to them those kids are a safe haven, and their pride and joy. If the relationship with a partner is still quite new, they won't yet trust it as much as they do the one with their kids.

If you really want to build a relationship with this lady and her kids, I would suggest spending a bit more time over there, getting to know them all, and yes, doing it on her turf. Sometimes it can be a challenge because you want "intimate" time. I remember those days, haha. My partner told me that there might be times when we can't do that because the kids might be around and he can't just throw them out. I accepted this and we worked around it.

Now we schedule "adult time" and encourage the kids to spend the night with friends. ;-) It took time. He needed to trust me and not feel as if he was neglecting his kids to be with me. Your partner isn't there yet. She's just getting to know you, but isn't yet ready to be away from her kids to be with you. But she is welcoming you into the fold, and wanting you to get to know them, though. This is HUGE. It's a massive sign of trust.

Maybe go along with it for now and give her time? Her inviting you to her home, and letting you meet her kids is actually a bigger and more meaningful step than just staying with you overnight. Making you a part of her household and her kids lives is a significant gesture. Does this make sense?

Is it at all possible that she is ready to commit, but you aren't? Something to ponder.

[formflier]

So when you ask her for her thoughts about reciprocating and staying over with you... .what does she say?
*She just brushes it off, non-chalantly, without explanation, like it's not going to happen. Then, she switches back toward my staying over there. Which, I explain I am not comfortable with.
 

I would stop further explanation on your part and ask her for one.

After the brush of...

"I need to get back to your thoughts on staying over."

perhaps switch to

"help me understand your decision about staying over with me"

Then... .if she still doesn't have anything to say.  I wouldn't ever bring it up again.

She has made a decision... .and made a decision to keep her reasoning private.  Take that information and make a choice for you... .going forward.

There is a chance if you are persistent with the words above... you may get some info.  Don't get sidetracked... remember "I need to get back to... .(fill in blank)"

FF

[Circle]

BasementDweller,
Yes, what you wrote makes sense.
And, I appreciate your feedback.
Thankyou!

[Circle]

F.F.,
I appreciate your feedback.
I tried to get a conversation rolling yesterday, but she was too tired.
Will let you know how she replies.
Thankyou, C

[Circle]

We just spoke.
I Stayed to the topic.
She said that she is comfortable with the idea of staying at my place.
However, she is a workaholic, as I mentioned in the original post.
So, the frequency of this potentially eventually happening is definitely limited.

And, at the moment, is an impossibility.
The reason it is currently restricted, is the BPD factor  .
Her daughter, who is currently having psychiatric issues.
Which led to the consideration of a BPD diagnosis (cutting, suicidality, etc).

The daughter factor, is part of what leads to my own hesitation with staying the night.
I feel like it is objectively a wild-card factor.

In addition, being a male, entering a household of three females is a unique situation.
It puts me in a vulnerable position.
I am perhaps being paranoid.
Yet, I feel like I could be accused of anything that an adolescent w/BPD conjures up.
The other daughter is also an issue; she has no potential BPD diagnosis, yet, in typical adolescent fashion, has made it clear that she has a slight disdain for me.

I spent four years with a woman diagnosed with BPD, and am aware of the real possibility of contrived falsehoods.

So, in summary, there are limitations to her spending the night at my place: current upheavals with BPD daughter and always super busy work schedule.
And, I am hesitant staying over there: BPD daughter, all female household (possible false accusations).
Which adds up to us not having much time to spend with each other.

[formflier]

Which adds up to us not having much time to spend with each other.

Yep... .and... .it would appear that she has clearly thought out her values... .correct?

What values do you "hear" her expressing?

FF

[Circle]

F.F.,
Good question.
Let me consider that.
Back in a bit.
Thanks,
C

[formflier]

The topic of the post is "unclear situation".  Frankly, the situation seems crystal clear to me.

Each of you has communicated about their values and priorities.

So... .is the situation unclear or is it clear that it is not what you expected or hoped for?

FF

[Circle]

F.F.
I guess that the values she is communicating, are a devotion to work and her kids above everything else.
It is clear, that it's not what I hoped for; which was some reciprocity.
I understand her reasons for not being able to do things.
Yet, it all adds up to the same thing, not being able to be together.
Sometimes, I am willing to accept the lack of logistical connectivity between us.
Combine that with unenthusiastic kisses too though, and it becomes bleak.
Thanks for your input,
C

[formflier]

Yet, it all adds up to the same thing, not being able to be together.
 

So... .you understand why she has no flexibility.

She is inviting you over... .how often do you accept? 

If your bottom line is that you want to be together with her... that seems solvable.

Is that your bottom line?

FF

[Circle]

F.F.
Generally, we hang out about once a week.
I haven't felt comfortable going to her house though, for the reasons I mentioned.
Which means spending time together in places out, like the restaurant.
My bottom line is making sure that I feel safe.
Which lately I don't, going to her house.
Thanks,
C

[formflier]

So her value system leads her to not stay at your house.

Your value system leads you not to stay at her house.

Do I have that correct?

FF

[Circle]

F.F.,
I think you have boiled it down to the essential salt, yes.
I would think of it more as 'survival', than values, but that is just two different ways of saying the same thing.
Again, I appreciate your consistency in working with me.
It has been helpful.

I feel wary of the situation as I have outlined.
It's not an all-of-a-sudden panic thing though.
It's more of a slowly drawn together conclusion based on observations and intuition.
I kind of wonder if I should check my thinking though.
Maybe I am being paranoid.
-C

[Circle]

I could use some feedback concerning possibly being paranoid, if anyone is interested.
Thanks
C

[formflier]

I could use some feedback concerning possibly being paranoid, if anyone is interested.
Thanks
C

What specifically... .do you believe you are being paranoid about?

Here is the thing... .you have a "vibe" about staying over at this lady's house.  Perhaps several unstable females  there.

Well... .when it comes to potentially dangerous situations... .compromising... .perhaps "complicated"... .I'm going to have to side with that little voice inside of you.  Your "gut".  Your "intuition".

What bad could come from ignoring it?

Would good could come from ignoring it?

Thoughts so far?

FF

[Circle]

Thanks so much for your reply F.F.,
I was specifically questioning my feelings about not going over to her house (which I was concerned were paranoid).

First question:Bad that could come from ignoring it: Well, the *one suicidal, cutting, being considered BPD by psychiatrists-daughter, combined with the *one disdainful adolescent daughter, combined with the *often blatantly apathetic mom (daughter of a retired-by-sueing-her-employer-lawsuits) makes me worried.
Bad that could come from ignoring it: I am worried that if I stay there, at the least, it could be a disruption for the daughters, having mom's boyfriend in the house. And, I am further worried, from strange, conflicting signals of welcome and unwelcomeness, that I could be accused of something by one of the females.

Second question: Good that could come from ignoring it: This one is a gamble. I could ignore my feeling, stay at the household, begin to meld with the family, have a good experience, with no adverse problems, or accusations arising. In other words, positive uneventfulness.

Thoughts so far: One other thought I have had is this. If I listen to my concerned feelings, take it slow, and require her to visit me for a while, while not staying there, I am requiring patience of her. This is a natural filter, so to speak. If she becomes fed up and bails on me, it's no loss, I filtered her out. And, it could give me more time to absorb information and assess risks. If I continue to feel unsafe, I can just rule out staying at her place, til the kids are older, or just leave the situation altogether.

Again, thanks for your insights,
C

[formflier]

  If she becomes fed up and bails on me, it's no loss, I filtered her out. 

Keeping a relationship at a certain level for a while is oftentimes a wise thing. 

Certainly you would likely want to put some "markers" on your calendar to reassess after 4 months or so... .but what if you stopped thinking and "assessing" and just enjoyed your time with her for several months.  Wherever you both work out that it will work for you to meet.


There is another option or thing that I think you should consider, without spending too much time on it now.

Your "intuition" says there are issues in her family (and ... .there likely are). 

Is that something you should filter? 

FF

[Circle]

F.F.,
Good last question.
Perhaps that is something I should not filter.
I'll have to ponder that one.
Thanks so much for your feedback.
I appreciate your support (and with intuition).
Intuition is a small, quiet voice and needs all the backup it can get at times.
C

[formflier]

Intuition is a small, quiet voice and needs all the backup it can get at times.

In my life, I don't let intuition make the decision, but I do let intuition focus my attention and thought.

And... .to be honest, it is odd when my intuition is overruled, although many times as I reflect on a situation I come up with a different course of action than I had considered... .before intuition tossed up a red flag of sorts.

There is a deliberate effort there to stay away from black/white, yes/no type of thinking.  Especially where relationships are concerned.

Many times instead of saying "stay with her or not" (or in my case stay with a relationship or not), perhaps it is better to ask "where can this relationship best grow"... ."where can we best come together"

Part of that is the realization that not every relationship grows as close as you would like, and on the flip side many will end up closer than you ever imagined.  Those relationships need to be nurtured over time, to see where they can go.

Can I try to focus your nurturing attention to something that seems obvious to me (at least at the moment).  

For various reasons intimate situations in each others homes doesn't seem to be working (right now).  Perhaps that should clue you in that

1.  More nurturing is needed before either of you are ready for that step.
2.  Perhaps you have been pushing too hard to get to that step... .has something been skipped over.

Slowing down and letting things bloom slowly is usually a good plan.  

Thoughts?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm late to the conversation - I've been on a denial-vacation for a few months.
But, my street senses say this:
1- It's a relatively short / new relationship - you shouldn't be staying over at the woman's house when her kids are home.  Who really knows how many times that's already happened? And it can negatively affect the kids. 
2- It's a relatively short / new relationship - if in doubt, seriously consider if the risks are worth the rewards.  I know the heart wants what the heart wants, but, I would recommend being being very cautious.  Easier to prevent than repair emotional damage.
3- The attention and affection does seem unbalanced.  If you are comfortable, and really want to be the one doing most of the connecting (talk, text, intimacy, conversation) maybe it will work.  But, if you wanted more balanced "work" in the r/s, you might not ever get it.  The beginning of a relationship tends to be the time of infatuation - when both parties are putting on the best behavior, showing extra affection, taking the high road, and such.  If you feel you're doing more than your share now, I do predict that it will not get better for you in the future, when things get a little stale.

I applaud you for realizing and being able to verbalize what you feel and identifying your needs.  It is important to recognize what is not right in a relationship. Then you can address it rightly, or move along as needed.

[Circle]

F.F.,
I liked what you wrote about intuition. And, that it sometimes guides you toward a different direction, yet you don't let it rule you.

I agree with black and white thinking. Part of the reason I wanted to check my head and see what others thought.

Concerning these points:
1.  More nurturing is needed before either of you are ready for that step.
2.  Perhaps you have been pushing too hard to get to that step... .has something been skipped over.

1. Yes, you may be right about nurturing and more of it. Trust sometimes does seem to grow out of loving care.
2. Something may have been skipped over, like the slow development of a friendship phase. Will have to see if that is a possibility at all.

We are hopefully spending some time together tomorrow.
Will try to check back in and let you know how it went.

Thankyou F.F.!

[Circle]

Sam Gamgee,
I will try to reply to you in more detail soon.
Thankyou for sharing your thoughts.
I appreciate it,
C

[formflier]

F.F.,
I liked what you wrote about intuition. And, that it sometimes guides you toward a different direction, yet you don't let it rule you.
 

And... .to be clear.  "Ignoring" intuition and doing what you want anyway... .is unlikely to have a positive outcome.

I'm a retired Naval Aviator (pilot for all you air force types).  I use my intuition and emotions as a "warning and caution light"

It gets my attention that there is a "potential" problem or issue and I need to give it closer attention.  Then... .depending on what I find... .and depending on the "health" of the rest of the airplane systems, I'll make some sort of decision about the best way forward for a good landing... .or sometimes a survivable landing.

Haven't ever had to eject or bailout... .but those are options too.

So... "my intuition is stupid... I'll do what I want"... .is bad!

I just got a bit nervous about the way I wrote my previous advice and your answer about "sometimes guiding you"... .it should "always affect you"... .and you make sure it is in a wise way.

FF

[Red5]

Good Afternoon Circle,

I too am a little late coming onboard as well, as like Sam, I too am kind of on a "denial vacation"... .ie' things are in the green, good, and calm at the moment, but that's another thread eh'.

So back to you, I have a quick war story to tell you, I am eight years (+) into my second marriage to u/BPDw, .I was previously married to another pw/BPD (known now?) for twenty something years... .in the middle of both these calamities, .while I had a clear title ()... .I had a hot red headed GF for almost a years time, I had been divorced only a few weeks (yeah!)... .and I started "dating" again, .you see I was a wounded duck, single parent now of three teenagers, and I was absolutely starved for female affection, so I was very easy pickings!

We met, started talking, and then boom we were off to the races, submarine races I think they used to call it(?)... .she was also a divorcee, so we had a lot in common, ... .what a hot mess she was now looking back, and I was Mr. Clue-Less !... .she used to tell me that her Xhusband was a npd... .I was like what's that ?... .yeah, I was picked off like a little lamb on the Serengeti !... .she used to tell me, ."baby cakes; I am soo much farther along than you"... .oh' yeah,

She gobbled me up quite literally, wanted to get married, and move into my home, and we would blend our children all together... .she was a "fast mover", .she would take me to Al-Anon meetings with her for a date, and she would ask me to come to her "T" sessions... .yeah wow !

Where was Captain Obvious when you needed him most, well he was hanging out with 1st Lieutenant Oblivious !

It was hot and heavy, with lots and lots of the aforementioned affection, which I was all about, now I understand this to be the "ideation phase"... .but to get to the point here, .ie' intuition as FF speaks of, .my WARNING CAUTION lights were glowing bright in my MT head / cockpit (pardon the pun),

(caveat) I did not fly like FF, but I fixed'em (jet fighters) for over twenty years, and then when we got'em fixed, we loaded ordnance on them... .so I was used to being "oblivious" to danger... .and to not be afraid of my intuition/gut when it told me to run at the first sign of bad weather, ie' lightning/danger.

You see, in spite of the "too good 2B true" physical ideations of constant "recreations" with this most gorgeous red head that I was now firmly "taken" ahold of & with in my pitiful post divorced life, .the inner "gut" was screaming... .RUN!

So this time I listened... .and I did !

Now looking back, even though I moved on from the "re-bound" right into another conundrum of a marriage, .I can see now in retrospect, I could have bitten off way more than I could have ever handled if I'd stayed on with Mrs. Red Head... .yes, dodged that one, .as the time passed, and I began to learn about "pd's"... .I can see now that she, Mrs. Red Head would have indeed "gobbled me up"  ... .albeit my current marriage is fraught, and sometimes pretty bad due to my u/BPDw's constant behaviors, .but at least, now I know, and if nothing else Mrs. Red Head did teach me a thing or two, and did wake me up, alas not soon enough, but soon enough to know now... what I know now ()... .I'll be alright, one way or another... .

I wise person once told me, ."if you want to know how your soon 2B ex-wife is going to treat you, just take a look at how she treats/treated the poor sod before you came along... .yes, the gut, trust it, .said another way, listen to your intuition, its never wrong.

Hang in there Circle, .what don't kill you outright, will make you stronger by and by !

And... .if you can't laugh at your problems, your already dead !

Red5

[Circle]

F.F.,
I appreciate your clarification.
Although I did get some of that from your previous post's mentioning of how your intuition is almost never overruled.
Sounds like an interesting career!
I like your analogy to intuition with flying.
It's effective and I will try to remember it.
"... .It should "always affect you"... .and you make sure it is in a wise way."
This is a good point too.
Thanks again for your guidance,
C
ps, looks like you and Red5 (posted on this thread) have some common background.

[Circle]

Red5,
Thanks for your interesting and entertaining post!
I appreciate that you can find some wisdom and perspective amidst struggle.
Will try to read and respond more in depth later.
Thankyou,
C

[Circle]

S.Gamgee,
1. Good question, I don't really know how many times that has happened. Probably a good idea. Though, it does create it's own odd dynamic, to avoid people altogether. Such a pain to have to think on.
2. I am generally a lot more cautious than I used to be. Even if I am doing things with the other person, I generally don't let my heart go in head-first anymore. Though, admittedly, relationships are trigger for anyone's personal issues.
3. Another good point, definitely. I think you are right. This lends credence to the notion of taking things slowly. And, not expecting the world from any other person, however infatuated they seem to be. Though, if there was infatuation being expressed, I would be even more worried, as that would seem too good to be true, undoubtedly.

Thanks for your support. And good point about needing to address things, or move on; one. That's what they say in anger managment. You can either do something about your anger, or let it go, one of the two.