Tuff hurdle ahead ,how to convince someone

[Shawnlam]

Well things have been going ok but yesterday I asked my gf something I figured was happening and she confirmed it.We were supposed to go up north this weekend (FYI we just got back together 3rd recycle,I left her twice).She texted me yesterday saying she wants to stay local and she had huge anxiety and couldn’t sleep last night.It took me awhile to figure it out but after our first breakup it seems every time we are about to be together she gets anxiety badly.Also even since the very beginning when we first started dating she was figgity and had issues approaching me after a date where she told me I intimidate her a lot but she doesn’t know why.Most men that have been with her were sexual right away but I wanted to get to know her before going down that path (took 1.5-2 months).
So anyways yesterday I call her up and I asked her: baby do I make you anxious or worried /scared ? Where she answered yes I’m always worried you will leave me now,I’m skeptical about us? But I still love you so much .With that said I kinda felt bad really bad because she is correct I did leave her twice (never knowing she had BPD traits or full BPD as far as I’m concerned).Now I have to figure out how to regain her confidence,

[Shawnlam]

I did wallow around the effect if she would prefer to be friends it’s ok it’s her choice but that I still love her deeply and care for her .Im a bit perplexed that she hasn’t painted me black yet ,I’m thinking she may not be as intense as some people with BPD traits but I’ve frankly moved away from labeling her and I’m just trying to understand and adapt myself without her figuring it out .I don’t want her to think I’m over studying these situations ,especially when I see her in person .She picks up very well facial expression and she knows me too well emotionally if I go quiet or something.Its going to be a tough uphill battle to try regaining the confidence of someone who frankly has trust issues to begin with.

[stixx44]

Shawnlam,

Is it possible you could do something fairly benign together this weekend, maybe even just a one-day thing?  Movie, walk in the park and lunch and maybe not get into any heavy discussions about the status of your relationship?

You’re fortunate in getting another chance at this.  I would tread lightly and let things unfold gradually.  I know how difficult that is.  I tried that during my last recycle and got a big 8 days before she let me go.  (She tried to get back via text after she realized that perhaps she made a mistake, but I didn’t respond.  Not to say I wouldn’t respond ever, but I’m not ready to go back to that well quite yet, and may never be ready.)

But in your case, she may be open to a low-pressure meeting.  Going away is a big deal to some people.  Just my thoughts... .what say you?

[Shawnlam]

Actually that’s what we decided this am, just chill go eat and she might come stay at my house tonight maybe not but nice and easy.I guess it will be like at the beginning just simple little dates see if it builds up or not .So hopefully her anxiety will be ok and we can so go have a nice dinner somewhere.

[Skip]

for one person who couldn’t give a damn about me and is statistically unable to change in any significant way regardless of therapies ,the percentile is so small I equate it to playing the loto. I'll have to side with the far left side of the internets view on BPD’s,like Paul erm and so many others... .once there is abuse move on fast and abandon hope either physical or mental.

Shawnlam, people with BPD are emotional people and in being that, they are generally better than the average person at reading what is in someone's heart.

Isn't what she is saying true?  I'm not meaning to be hurtful with this. I don't think this is about convincing her of anything... .I think its more about changing what is in your heart.

You've been here a little under 4 weeks. Look at what you have said about her and what you have said about "BPD" in general and what you have reacted to member coaching (pretty invalidating to the members).

1) You have said many times that you are inclined to believe the "far left side of the Internets view on BPD’s"... .the evil vampire stuff.

2) You have run hot and cold (extremes) on her and this relationship and even on those that try to help you here (I'm truly not meaning to be hurtful with this).

A pwBPD or just traits is a special needs person and will always be a special needs person. This is not a free pass. This is not a free pass anymore than a man in a wheelchair deserves a free pass for armed robbery - but he does deserve a free pass for being crippled and needing help going to the market.

Do you have the heart for this women and her reality and her needs? Can you provide stability, consistency, structure, patience, and understanding without payback, retribution, emotional volatility?  Can you tell tell the difference between "armed robbery" and her being too crippled to go places without help? Do you have the strength to live this life and not be eaten up by it (some people can, some can't).

This is not for everyone.

The most important question, the tough hurdle, is deciding if this is it for you?

[Shawnlam]

Skip I think that you are out of line on some of the points you  just said .It seems (and I have seen it numerous times) that some of the admin folks tend to forget the pain of the victims as well no? Yes I’ve been hot and cold because it’s been a very ruff rollercoaster ride for me and I’m sure many others.Ive never crapped on the advice of the admin staff at all ? Sometimes I disagree but never took it and threw it back in their face.Also BPD is not equated to someone in a wheel chair ,someone crippled can’t become uncrippled.People with BPD can get better if they chose to so you aren’t comparing apples with apples at all.

With that said I am trying change myself for her but it’s not exactly very easy to do when you’ve done things a certain way 41years in a row.But she also can’t remain as is operating without boundaries or some responsibility while I mop up behind her the rest of our lives together.So if she breaks  boundaries or constantly disrespects me or cheats on me etc yes of course this is over .BPD isn’t a license to abuse your partner relentlessly,yes as a BPD partner I have to swallow huge sums of hardship that I am willing to do ... .but everyone has their limits no?

[formflier]

Also BPD is not equated to someone in a wheel chair ,someone crippled can’t become uncrippled.People with BPD can get better if they chose to so you aren’t comparing apples with apples at all.

And... .some BPDish people can't become unBPDish (that can be expanded to just about any mental illness). 

Sadly... .we know that some crippled people decline to a wheelchair, and then are bedridden... and then pass away.  Others have a more hopeful story.

Sadly... .we know some with mental illness decline to the point of passing away, and some have miraculous recoveries.  Most will improve and decline as various forces work in their life.

Is any of what I've said inaccurate?  To me, it does seem like apples to apples (from a broad view of illness). 

My goal is not to get in a "yes it is" ... ."no it isn't argument". 

Can we agree for the purpose of this discussion that they are "roughly analogous"?  Can that move us forward together?

Last:  I'm sure it was a slip of the keyboard on your part

People with BPD can get better if they chose to

I'm sure that you meant that choosing to improve your health situation is important to anyone's recovery.  Just as there is more than "choosing to get better" for a crippled person to improve, I would suggest there is much more than "choice" for a pwBPD improve.

"Choice" certainly is an important part of a complex process for a pwBPD to improve.

Back in a few more min with a personal application from my relationship.

FF

[formflier]

A pwBPD or just traits is a special needs person and will always be a special needs person.  

I've found this true in my relationship.

I've been blessed to have a PhD level Psychologist helping me for the last few years.  She has been around my wife enough to understand how "she works" on a "core level".  

From that, her advice to me is to "wrap her soul in bubble-wrap" anytime that I need to convey she "is wrong" about something... anything really.

And... .if there is anyway possible to nudge the situation without "wrongness"... .it is to the benefit of my relationship and my family for me to do an enormous amount of relationship gymnastics to accomplish that.

I've followed that advice... .and my relationship has benefited enormously.  At the moment I can't think of the last time I said she was wrong.  Many times when I hear an assertion on her part... .I ask myself if "it" matters more... .or if my wife matters more.   

Note for those passing through that are aware of FF's "don't save them" advice and mentality... .I stick by that for most things in my relationship.  However, for "core wounds" (which I understand are from her FOO)... .I do what I can to apply "bubblewrap"

Hope this helps.  Time and wisdom will help you sort out what are's to "be firm" in and when to be especially caring. I would let YOUR CORE VALUESs guide that process as well.

Hmmm... .core values... .?  Seems like that has come up recently... somehwere... .

FF

[Skip]

Your quote (5 posts above) says:
statistically unable to change in any significant way regardless of therapies ,the percentile is so small I equate it to playing the loto

Your post above says:
People with BPD can get better if they chose to so

You used the first statement to point out (strongly) that the advice you were getting was "out of line".

You used the opposite statement to point out that the advice you are getting is "out of line".

Do you see what is happening here? When things "feel" invalidating or challenge your ego, you push back and you push back pretty hard... .even if it totally contradicts what you said/believed 48 hours ago.

This is likely the intimidation of which your gf speaks.

Yes I’ve been hot and cold because it’s been a very ruff rollercoaster ride for me and I’m sure many others.

Yes its been a rough ride, we all get that. But is it all her? Is she responsible for her bad behavior.  Is she responsible for yours too? What if she is doing the same, blaming her actions on your behavior.

This can be an endless cycle of conflict.

She has BPD traits. You said that. That's a challenge.

But it also seems that you have a very fragile ego and react very strongly when it gets poked. We're your friends and you feel poked if we challenge you. It really fires you up.

The day that you said she was incurable, you felt most happy with members who agreed with you pushed hard on those that didn't. Today, you would have the opposite reaction - you will appreciate those that agree and not those that don't.

Do you think its possible that your dynamics and her dynamics clash and this is what makes it such a rough ride?

She triggers you and you flipout and turn around and trigger her. Your hope, right now, is that she will stop triggering you and things will be better.

I'm poking you, Shaun, I know. I'm not trying to hurt you... .I'm trying to get you to see... .

... .yourself.

[Struggler123]

Skip I think that you are out of line on some of the points you  just said .It seems (and I have seen it numerous times) that some of the admin folks tend to forget the pain of the victims as well no? Yes I’ve been hot and cold because it’s been a very ruff rollercoaster ride for me and I’m sure many others.Ive never crapped on the advice of the admin staff at all ? Sometimes I disagree but never took it and threw it back in their face.Also BPD is not equated to someone in a wheel chair ,someone crippled can’t become uncrippled.People with BPD can get better if they chose to so you aren’t comparing apples with apples at all.

With that said I am trying change myself for her but it’s not exactly very easy to do when you’ve done things a certain way 41years in a row.But she also can’t remain as is operating without boundaries or some responsibility while I mop up behind her the rest of our lives together.So if she breaks  boundaries or constantly disrespects me or cheats on me etc yes of course this is over .BPD isn’t a license to abuse your partner relentlessly,yes as a BPD partner I have to swallow huge sums of hardship that I am willing to do ... .but everyone has their limits no?

Shawn, I 100% respect your idea to see this through and I hope that it works out for you. But, as you said above you are trying to change yourself for her. What exactly are you trying to change? As I recall, loving someone means that they love you for who YOU are. You change bad habits, but you don’t change people. The thing you have to keep in mind is, are you mentally prepared for a heartbreak if it occurs? Are you willing to invest your all into a relationship knowing that this person might throw it away in minutes? In no way, am I discouraging you I think that its great that you want to make things work. It reminds me of myself, when I was recycled or broken up with 3x. On the 4th try, I said I need time, and we were still semi-together, when it got to the point of 4th try, she wanted a commitment, when I couldn’t give it to her, you know what she said? I love you but, I have to move on because you cant give me what he can (in nice terms). Do you have the mindset to able to handle her at her worst, knowing you will be blamed for her actions.  You have to understand that we can’t blame those with BPD, but then we have to have the capacity to take responsibilities for our actions as well. If you can live with the fact, that you might get ripped to shreads, and can bounce back from that, then your one of the few thats courageous enough to go into a deep sea and not drown. As for BPD getting better, 75% of patients dont want to get better, those that recover don’t have the same traits you were once attracted to, because you have to understand that emotions are mirrored, they morphed into your liking, to get you to like them and once their needs were too much for you, they went looking elsewhere. I think that you have to look at the pros and cons and decide if this is what You want. I am the kind of person that sees everything through and I wasn’t able to do anything. Those with success stories, tell you about a few weeks or months in their life but problem is they dont discuss the relapse, and why would they? Our minds are designed to only remember the good things.

Take care of yourself, positive thoughts.

[Shawnlam]

After all that effort and compassion etc , she still left you ... .I can’t imagine the pain you must have been in and probably still are.

Honestly I’ve tried lately (this last week) not to think too much about what will happen if she decides to leave me for another or just in general leave.I know it’s a strong possibility but if I dwell on that it kick starts me into feeling anxious/sad/upset emotions I rarely felt on a daily basis.I haven’t been myself since November of last year and to be honest it has caused me to lose confidence in my decisions,self respect, I float daily In a mist of indecision when it comes to her or us... .that alone is causing me health problems.I think even today’s dinner she’s gonna cancel because she’s doing the trend she does systematically when she’s gonna cancel something and that’s no texting at all,all day because she’s anxious or scared to see me again.It pushes me into being anxious to  so it’s like we are both spiraling out of control.

[Struggler123]

Shawn, you seem like a very smart individual. In no way, do I want you to feel like this. But I think that what im trying to provide you with is support. I hope that things get better for you, but you have to know that no matter the outcome, don’t let it change you. Set up your own boundaries, do things you want to do. Have a strong support system. You cant control her but you can control how you feel. Take things lightly and one step at a time and im sure the road will be paved for you. At times I do think about her but, I know deep down it wasn’t going to work out, and I started to accept it. The take home message is, don’t let her needs take over your needs. Your health, your mind need rest too, and I hope you get that. BPD’s do have a tendency of wanting all their needs met but truth is you have needs to and only you can set that boundary and if you don’t you will either find yourself in a abusive, cheating, or losing yourself type of relationship and no one wants that, its sad but some members are married with kids and they still feel like their losing their sanity so what your experiencing is completely normal. I wish you the best.

[Skip]

I think even today’s dinner she’s gonna cancel because she’s doing the trend she does systematically when she’s gonna cancel something and that’s no texting at all, all day because she’s anxious or scared to see me again. It pushes me into being anxious to so it’s like we are both spiraling out of control.

Shawn,

I don't think she is "anxious or scared to see you"... .her behavior would suggest not motivated to see you... .that she has lost the attraction and good feelings of the first 120 days.  I say this because attending to her fears probably isn't going to solve anything.

The flipside is that this is not about anxiety for you. That's a secondary thing. The struggle is with the idealization that existed the first 120 days when she was head over heels and the contrasting "I made other plans" attitude of the second 120 days.

I say this because solving it is about figuring out what is going on and that takes work. She may not even know or be able to express it... .you have to look at the whole picture and try to figure it out.  It could simply be your reaction to her her request to slow it down and your embers of resentment, clinginess, etc. Maybe if you have just given her space, the jitters might have just passed. Putting pressure on when someone is having doubt, does not play well.

I think I would look at what transpired over the holidays that transformed the relationship.

[Shawnlam]

Well after she cancelled today I did us both a favor and just blocked her since I can’t take this sh$$ anymore.I just got more excuses and a I wanna see you and love you crap so I went and blocked her.Enough is enough

[Skip]

Well after she cancelled today I did us both a favor and just blocked her since I can’t take this sh$$ anymore.I just got more excuses and a I wanna see you and love you crap so I went and blocked her.Enough is enough

I wonder why I feel 10x worse and sad now that she left me Vs when I left her.  I’m totally heart broken now that she said goodbye to me , every ounce of my will power is being used to not text her.I miss my gf and I want her back ... .what is wrong with me tonight

The worst thing you can do right now is swarm her with a needy text... .it will be more of the same and nail the coffin shut.

A light card late in the week with a short note that shows that you truly get her and that doesn't ask for anything is what is needed here. Amp down the situation.

The bigger question is "do you get it" and can you interface with her without extreme reactions?

From what you have said, this plays like a 100 day whirlwind romance that got ahead of itself by Christmas and she felt like you were going 120 MPH and she was going 90. The best response to that would have been to stay cool and confident and read that you were moving too fast. She may have given you mixed or confusing signals (women do that). Backing off was disappointing, absolutely, but she simply wasn't on the same page with you.

Don't get me wrong. I know this sucked. You didn't know that she over emotes (both high and low) and having her pull away was a shocker... .

Nonetheless, the more you pushed and demanded or the next 100 days, the more she pulled away - this is human nature. Any fears she had materialized.

If we had 20 20 hindsight, the best thing would have been to be cool and confident and give her 20% more space than she needed. Let her get past her fears. And when she was ready, start back up at her speed... .let her lead.

The pushing, the anger, the breakups, only made things worse and worse until she finally echoed your words back to you; "enough is enough".

So what's next. You could be cool and confident and give her understanding, space, and a pathway back in... .she may take it, it may take a while, it will probably be slow.

Or you can do more of the same.

[Shawnlam]

I took your advice and have and am giving her the space she needs.I will not reach out to her or bother her,just give her time/space.If she wants back with me ,she will reach out on her time ,if not she won’t... .I’ll have to accept either one,but I certainly won’t block her way back to me,she is free to do it anyway she wants.

[Shawnlam]

You know what’s crazy skip ,is I never realized I was diving into the shallow end of the pool at the beginning.In all my relationships she’s the only one that I fell in love with so fast and intense (soul mate style) that it rocked the boat too fast.Even with her bringing up marriage /the pregnancy/ moving in ,all red flags obviously and I fell right in head first.Then obviously I was going 120mph and when she wasn’t on a emotion high anymore she felt overwhelmed... .never saw it coming.Of course today now that I have slowed down to normal and pace about 1.5 months ago , as you read on her text goodbye,she can’t read me and I confuse her... .no kidding right .

[Skip]

I was going 120mph and when she wasn’t on a emotion high anymore she felt overwhelmed... .never saw it coming.

Of course... .we never do. How many men say this when a relationship crashes... .any relationship (not just BPD).  

A lot. I read this everyday. I've done it too. We're men. We love blinders.



We often don't pick up on the clues... .when we look back, we see them. Hopefully we use that going forward to be smarter and more in tune. Often times we ignore and the relationship struggles and dies.

now that I have slowed down to normal and pace about 1.5 months ago... .

I don't think you slowed down to a "normal pace". I think you went to a wounded resentful place... .

as you read on her text goodbye, she can’t read me and I confuse her... .

I think she sees you as attacking her more than trying to connect with her and understand her needs... .and that has kicked up a lot of resentment toward you. Your "go to" reaction is withdrawal (stage 4). This is toxic in relationships - you are bot in stage 4. I shared this with you before and you mocked it... .but its predictive... .there is a lot of science there. You are once again selecting withdrawal even though it has failed over and over.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

A person with BPD is a special needs person. They are highly sensitive and are easily mortally wounded. You are hitting her with the two things she can't cope with (abandonment and shaming). She is reacting badly.

Things blew sky high last week with her, yet again, avoiding you, and you, yet again, blocking her, and her needing to walk away and end the abandonment and shaming... .

If you don't blow some mature cool healing air into this, the concrete will set up in her mind with you just being an emotional brute and her needing to run away from you for good. Remember, as high in love as she was, she can also go as low in feeling mistreated.

Shawn, if you are ready to walk on, then leave it as it is and it will be over. Left to fester, the wounds will infect.

To be honest, my observation is that you two are not particularly good for each other... .when things were good they were great, but when you hit a snag (a recoverable snag) you both have huge fears and you both prioritize attending to the fears over reaching out to the other person.

Going back to the horse photo... .horses are animals of fear. I love horses and they are wonderful gentle animals. But no matter how long you have a horse and how much it loves you, if it's fears are triggered it can easily kill you as it totally focuses on reacting to its fear.  In some cases, that can be a something as simple as red rubber ball quietly on the ground.

We will support you either way.  

[Shawnlam]

What do you suggest I do though (I’m serious) no joke? You read her goodbye text to me, should I wait till she may contact me again like many here said she will? Was her final message a test you think? To see how I would respond ( which I did I’ll explain that below). Do I reach out to her in a few weeks or respect her wishes of ending the relationship? Honestly I don’t know how to handle her message (but I do know I want her back).Her message was just so odd like she said , I never want to let you go ,still don’t... .but was that her being nice to let me down easy or a “whoo hoo “ read between the lines?

Here is what I answered her :

 If I understand your text ,you want to end the relationship... .I kinda saw this coming to be honest and I understand.I will of course respect that because as you know I respect you.I always kinda wanted to believe I made you anxious because I loved you too much.I remember on our first date I called you ms figgity because you said I intimidated you .I never loved someone as much as you and it even scared me to.I love you <name>, and all I can say and I know I shouldn’t is ,I would have waited for you.I don’t regret having had you in my life at all.If ever in the future months or years you still want a man who will treat you with real love and not like most pigs out there , and if I’m single then maybe it was meant to be that we end up together.You know how to reach me anytime ,anyway. Take care little one . Je t’aime
Shawn

She returned a text saying thanks Shawn,I feel the same way.

Those were the last words on Saturday and to date I exchanged with her ... .god I feel bad what I did to her, even after what she did to me ,it still hurts more knowing how I’ve made her feel and experience.

[Skip]

A lot of members on "Learning Board" are there to learn what problems they brought to the relationship and how to go forward with better relationship skills. This is a win win - it will help if you get back together with ML. It will help if you move on to another relationship too.

One other thing you might do is help other members on better to "see" what is happening in their relationship and how not to act when the relationship is in crisis. This "giving back" will help you as much as it helps them".

Both of you last communications do not sound like "done forever"... .more like taking space.

In this downtime, you can work on making yourself more in-tune with others and self-aware. This will be essential if you guys go another round and you want it to be better than this last one.

It's also time to cool off and to start asking yourself if this is a relationship you want to invest yourself in.