Introduction & Why I am Here

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Last December I started thinking about killing myself. Trying to understand why, I read something about emotional manipulators and it felt like reading my life story.  My partner is a troubled person with a ton of medical and mental health issues. I am a neurotic, caregiver with low self esteem. Yeah, we are the perfect storm! The more I read about manipulators, narcissists, and emotional abusers, the more I related to the destruction they wreck on lives and understood why I'd stopped wanting to live. The one thing that didn't make sense, though, was that my partner has a big heart and does care about others, especially animals and those that seem innocent, and even cares about me. I've come to think she might be BP and maybe doesn't see how damaging her behavior is. That is why I'm here...   To try to figure things out and maybe find some support for the next time I start considering suicide. By the way, I'm not gay at all but years ago I gave in to the intimate relationship that she wanted but I've never wanted because... .well... .that's how screwed up it all is.

[LivingLies]

Last December I started thinking about killing myself. Trying to understand why, I read something about emotional manipulators and it felt like reading my life story.  My partner is a troubled person with a ton of medical and mental health issues. I am a neurotic, caregiver with low self esteem. Yeah, we are the perfect storm! The more I read about manipulators, narcissists, and emotional abusers, the more I related to the destruction they wreck on lives and understood why I'd stopped wanting to live. The one thing that didn't make sense, though, was that my partner has a big heart and does care about others, especially animals and those that seem innocent, and even cares about me. I've come to think she might be BP and maybe doesn't see how damaging her behavior is. That is why I'm here...   To try to figure things out and maybe find some support for the next time I start considering suicide. By the way, I'm not gay at all but years ago I gave in to the intimate relationship that she wanted but I've never wanted because... .well... .that's how screwed up it all is.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

Welcome.   

Can you please tell us more about how you felt manipulated?

How did you keep yourself together after what happened in December?

Is this a romantic partner or a friend that you are discussing here?

with compassion, pearl.

[LivingLies]

Thank you for your reply.  I've never tried to make sense of all this for another person. It doesn't even make sense to me, but I'll try…

I've been in this relationship for 18 years. First as best friends & roommates, then more than friends, and a few years ago (when it became legal) we got married. When we met I was so insecure and lonely. I was just out of college and back living among my family who never treated me that great. We were like long lost sisters almost immediately, sharing everything. I had never had a friend like that and I had always longed for one. She helped me see the ways my family members were mistreating me and made me feel like I was perfect as I was... .not too fat, too inexperienced, too nerdy, etc. At the same time she was a lost soul who had been so hurt and victimised all her life. She trusted me enough to confide in me about being raped in college and giving up her baby that was the result, the way her mother kicked her to the curb when she found out she was pregnant, even about the ritualistic abuse she’d suffered as a child. (Later I would have moments of doubts that all her stories were true, but I still don't know). I had never felt closer to anyone so I believed all of her stories word for word. She had suffered so much and was so alone that I knew I needed to help her heal and find happiness.

Less than a year into the best friend/roommate situation began she suffered a breakdown. Not only could she no longer work but she could not be on her own because she would dissociate or “check-out” at times, sometimes for minutes and sometimes for days, and while she was totally out of it she could disappear or hurt herself. She begged me not to let her end up in a hospital so I stayed with her 24/7 without letting anyone know what was going on. That was the start of my life of secrets and lies. Eventually she supported me as I stood up to my family and cut them out of my life for being emotionally abusive. I had only distant friends and occasional crap jobs so I ended up moving out of state with her to live with her mom… who she had somehow reconciled with.  During this time she got me to believe that we could help each other get over our own traumas so we would someday be ready to meet the right guys.  This led to innocent intimacy at first and very, very gradually grew over the years. She never actually insisted or made me do it, but I know it was never something I wanted. As years went on our lives became more and more entwined.  We pooled all of our money, bought a house together, and had no other close friends.  Her large family accepted me as one of their own and, over the years, I was more comfortable with them than I’d been with my own.  We told strangers we were sisters so they wouldn’t questions our joint lives. For years she tried to convince me we shouldn’t wait for the right guy to have kids but we should each get pregnant through insemination and raise our kids together.  When she was unable to get pregnant that way, she even begged me to have a baby and give it up so she could adopt it as her own.  That was one thing I could never do, though.

 Her health, physical and emotional, continued to go downhill as well.  We both went back to school and when her anxiety and depression acted up I would end up writing her papers for her or taking a class I didn’t need so she didn’t have to take it alone.  Eventually, she failed out of grad school while I went on to earn two master degrees and start a successful career. She couldn't keep a job so just stopped working altogether. Even her family wondered why I supported her financially and took care of her, but I knew she needed me and that I was being a good person. Plus, she was my dearest friend. In the beginning she had liked to control everything but, as years went on, she did less and less until I was taking care of it all - bills, housework, repairs, appointments for both of us - I still do everything because she can't either physically or emotionally.

While still in school she started having raging arguments with me every night.  If I did anything wrong she berated me until I felt like I was a selfish, worthless person who didn’t deserve anything good.  We fought every night.  She would keep me awake to argue or try to resolve something or to help her through a nightmare.  I started to suffer extreme sleep deprivation.  I was just trying to survive one day to the next.  One night, I was taking the garbage out close to midnight and I heard something in the bushes next to me.  Rather than being afraid, I realized I didn’t care if it was a bear or an ax murder or whatever… I didn’t care what happened to me at all any more.  I went to the bookstore the next day on my own without telling her, which was an incredibly huge deal.  I bought the book “Stop Walking on Eggshells.”  I started to wonder if my blind trust had been wrong and maybe she might have Borderline Personality Disorder. I began wondering about breaking away from her. I started posting to an online support group and moved into my own room (we’d been sharing a room since the first year because of her anxiety and trauma).  I secretly got my own bank account and post office box as I began planning how to get my life back.  I even started therapy where I was encouraged to put space between us for my own good. 

But, I don’t know what happened.  She started to take medication, stopped raging  and told me she didn’t remember all the times she screamed at me.  She started being more like my best friend from years ago.  It might seem hard to believe that I stayed with her, but I love her and we did have really great times together.  Even with the raging, she was more supportive of me than anyone ever had been.  She always told me how pretty I was, how smart and funny I was, and how special I made her feel.  She never gave me a hard time or made fun of the things I liked or laughed at me for not being able to spell.  And we did have fun together!  We’d obsess on the same books or TV shows.  We took several trips to Disney World.  And we talked about deep topics all the time.  She was truly my best friend and I didn’t think she would survive without me.  So, I just didn’t walk away.  I don’t even remember why I made the decision to stay, I just remember doing it.  Maybe I was afraid of being alone or of losing her family too like I had lost mine. 

After that, though, she pushed me to “see” that we were not just friends and had never been just friends.  She said we were in a lesbian relationship and had been for a long time and I needed to accept that.  Once I was firmly back to being entrenched with her, she begged me to become a foster mother with her so we could have a family.  I didn’t want to do it, but I was so used to doing whatever it took to make her happy and I kind of just accepted that she was always right. Maybe it was just easier that way.  Even those the rages had completely stopped, it was like I had been programed to fear her being disappointed.  She wanted a family and said it would be easier to adopt if we were married. We had already been registered domestic partners for years because she didn’t work any more and needed my insurance.  I knew I was living a lie but that just made me more committed to it. I was never in love with her.  Never attracted to her.  I hated being intimate at all.  In fact, I couldn’t kiss her.  I tried to make it about my own hang ups and not her, but I remember cringing when I had to kiss her at the altar. 

Other than that, though, I was very  happy on my wedding day because everyone there was happy with me.  My mom never did accept me again but my dad and much of my relatives thought I had finally figured out who I was and embraced it.  Seeing all of them proud of me made me so happy that I just felt I was doing the right thing. It didn’t last, though.  In spite of all my unspoken concerns and doubts, we quickly adopted two older kids from foster care who both turned out to have reactive attachment disorder and a host of other issues we did not know how to handle. What’s worse, my wife wanted to control them and force them to respect her.  She started raging at the older one especially and the two of them even physically fought.  I hate myself but I didn’t stop it.  I was afraid of even admitting to myself that I thought she was being abusive to the kids.  My life was consumed with working to support a family of four on my own, taking care of the house on my own, managing the fights in the house, paying for my wife’s many medical bills and dealing with her anxiety & depression. Other than the discipline part, I was basically a single mother and I was back to hiding all the truths of my life. The kids became a source of contention with my extended family that I was still struggling to let into my life.  After a few years, the older one ran away and my parents worked behind our backs to help him start a life without us.  I was so angry at them because they would not even babysit a few hours to give me a break before and then they tried to save him when I failed! 

I was angry at everything in my life and I hated what I'd become. I used to have the nickname Pollyanna and now I hated myself and everything. My wife kept complaining that we were only intimate a couple of times a year, but even that was too much for me.  I hated it!  I can remember squeezing my eyes shut and praying to God to help me get through it whenever she would touch me.  I thought it was my hang-ups, though.  I prayed that I would fall in love with her for real so I wouldn’t be so miserable while trying to make her happy.  Then, last December, almost exactly 18 years from when we started being roommates, I read a book that asked the question, “should a mistake, a choice, you made in your youth trap you for your whole life?”  I don’t know why but it turned a switch on for me.  During the same time, she started snapping at me more and more.  At one point she blew up at me in front of her mother in public, which was followed by a 30 minute drive of the silent treatment. During that drive, I started planning my suicide.  I had never thought I could kill myself before.  I had wanted to die, but I had always known I couldn’t do that for one reason or another.  That night I could not think of one reason not to end it.  I even came up with the plan of how to do it. By the time I got to our destination, though, I had decided that if I was desperate enough to kill myself then I should be desperate enough to do something crazy first.  There had to be something better than death, even if it was just disappearing and starting a new life somewhere else.

I started researching for weeks and months, and my eyes were starting to open.  I started to think that this person I’ve devoted my life to has been an aggressive manipulator using me this whole time. But, was none of it real?  Does she love me at all? I read so many articles and kept coming back to how she cries for abandoned animals and does so much for her mom and supports my career... .She is not bad! So, what then? That's when I came back to BPD again after all these years. Maybe I had been right afterall.

And so here I am.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

I thank you for taking the time to express yourself on these complicated issues spanning many years. You have had quite a lot go on in these 18 years so I get that there is a lot to untangle here. I can imagine it must be very confusing. I don't mean to overwhelm you with questions, but here are a few, feel free to address some or none... .get out what you need to!

Are you working with a therapist on these issues? Are you still with your wife? Do you feel like you are actually heterosexual? Or bi? Or?

Do you feel like you were manipulated/abused by her?

Let me suggest that it is never too late to change your life and set it another direction. Okay?

Are you still having thoughts of suicide?

Which BPD traits would you say she has?

with deep compassion, pearl.

[spero]

Hi LivingLies,

I join pearlsw in welcoming you to the forums. Greetings and 

I thank you so much for just being so open in pouring out your heart here. 18 years is a long time to be in this relationship.
It seems like your partner, as you have mentioned in your post, has many struggles and deep issues which unfortunately has not been sorted out.
These "baggages" which have not been dealt with have very unfortunately affected your relationship in tremendous ways, and has not only caused you pain but also to your partner (though she may well be causing her own pain)

From your post, i would like to just reiterate some of experiences to give you a macro perspective. This would also help you think through what has been happening and also help our community chime in on your experience.

1. There is a history of child-abuse. ( from her perspective ), but at the same time the part of about seemingly presenting herself as the victim.
2. Breakdown, disassociation and emotionally "checking out", silent treatment episodes.
3. Self-harming.

4. The devaluation and rage cycles.

While still in school she started having raging arguments with me every night.  If I did anything wrong she berated me until I felt like I was a selfish, worthless person who didn’t deserve anything good.  We fought every night.  She would keep me awake to argue or try to resolve something or to help her through a nightmare. 

5. There seems to be traces of what we would deem as Fear, Obligation, Guilt

Even those the rages had completely stopped, it was like I had been programed to fear her being disappointed.

6. There seems to be a need for control, anger and the repetition of abuse.

What’s worse, my wife wanted to control them and force them to respect her.  She started raging at the older one especially and the two of them even physically fought.  I hate myself but I didn’t stop it.  I was afraid of even admitting to myself that I thought she was being abusive to the kids.

7. There seems to be "trauma bonding" and unfortunately you've left to become the sole care-taker of your partner and kids.

At one point she blew up at me in front of her mother in public, which was followed by a 30 minute drive of the silent treatment. During that drive, I started planning my suicide.  I had never thought I could kill myself before.  I had wanted to die, but I had always known I couldn’t do that for one reason or another.  That night I could not think of one reason not to end it.  I even came up with the plan of how to do it. By the time I got to our destination, though, I had decided that if I was desperate enough to kill myself then I should be desperate enough to do something crazy first.  There had to be something better than death, even if it was just disappearing and starting a new life somewhere else.

LivingLies, i'm so sorry that you've been so worn out until it seemed like you didn't care about your own well being, to the point of even contemplating suicide. Understandably, its been about half a year since the above mentioned incident. How have you been coping with in this particular aspect? Are you still having such thoughts? LivingLies, i want to gently assure you, that you're unique and your life is precious. It isn't easy for anyone to reach a point where they would consider suicide even as a plausible option. I'm sorry that the many years of being in such a relationship, has somehow eroded your mental well being. Having said that, i'm also glad that you've found this community. I do have hope that you'll find many stories which would resonate with yours.

I started researching for weeks and months, and my eyes were starting to open.  I started to think that this person I’ve devoted my life to has been an aggressive manipulator using me this whole time. But, was none of it real?  Does she love me at all? I read so many articles and kept coming back to how she cries for abandoned animals and does so much for her mom and supports my career... .She is not bad! So, what then? That's when I came back to BPD again after all these years. Maybe I had been right afterall.

It takes alot out of any individual really, to begin to separate the actions, feelings, behaviours and emotions from the person we have "bonded" with. Its really understandable and many in this community have reached the point of questioning if our partners had actually loved us. LivingLies, if your partner truly has BPD, then perhaps the answer is both, yes and no. Neither can we separate the sum of their personalities and character, it is... .one and the same person. That is unfortunately the whole spectrum and experience.

This would probably be so difficult to understand. I do not be little or denigrate people who live with BPD as a mental condition, but sometimes, the easiest but unfortunately not the most respectable way is to perhaps understand that you might be dealing with a "child" who lives in an adult body. Perhaps akin to a 3 year old child. I say this with much sadness and compassion, especially in my own experience with my uBPDexGF. She did not fully understand the repercussions of her own decisions, neither could she take responsibility or ownership in a "healthy way".

It is that core woundedness from your partners childhood which has deeply distorted her beliefs and worldviews, her past experiences colour the way she responds and acts out to you. Unfortunately and very sadly, she has developed poor coping mechanism to deal with her emotions, like self harming, pushing the blame unto others etc. I am sorry that you've been taking the brunt of all these, and that your partner has not be able to care for herself, and has instead made you her caretaker. I'd like to bounce the same question pearlsw has asked you, do you feel "trapped" into staying? Would you feel that "she can't live without me?" perhaps?

Regarding the "she is not so bad", i wonder if it is how we've decided to only look at the good parts, but not the sum of the whole person. In a very distorted way, my uBPDexGF had done the same thing to me. Instead she chose to look at one bad thing and decided that i was all bad. So LivingLies, would you be looking at a small portion of good, no matter how genuine and real it was, but yet have decided to consciously filter out all the misdeeds and perhaps even abuse, she has poured out unto you? My therapist brought that up to me, and perhaps she had made me feel a certain way i was lacking in my childhood, that need to be loved, cherished, appreciated and given value and worth to my life perhaps... .

I'll pause here for the time being. These are my thoughts so far.
How would you like us as a community to support you at this time?
Hope to hear from you soon, take good care.

Yours,
Spero.

[Red5]

Hello and welcome Living Lies, you have found a good and safe place,

Spero writes; Regarding the "she is not so bad", i wonder if it is how we've decided to only look at the good parts, but not the sum of the whole person. In a very distorted way, my uBPDexGF had done the same thing to me. Instead she chose to look at one bad thing and decided that i was all bad. So LivingLies, would you be looking at a small portion of good, no matter how genuine and real it was, but yet have decided to consciously filter out all the misdeeds and perhaps even abuse, she has poured out unto you? My therapist brought that up to me, and perhaps she had made me feel a certain way i was lacking in my childhood, that need to be loved, cherished, appreciated and given value and worth to my life perhaps... .

This is what I have come to understand as “intermittent positive reward”, said another way, constant abuse tolerated due to the ever returning, fleeting moments of “good”, then back to abuse again, so we stay, hoping that the good person will return again, and again... .a cycle you see, perpetual down down down, and then a little “up” to keep you from drowning, .an addiction, this intermittent positive reward.

Red5

[LivingLies]

Wow! Thank you guys for replying to me.  It feels strange but good to know there are some people out there who I'm actually NOT lying to. To tell you the truth, I’m just impressed that anyone would read all of what I wrote.  I didn’t mean it to be so long, but I could have written a novel about the last 18 years so that was as short as I could do it.  Thank you for investing the time to read it all and try to help me.  It means a lot and I will try to answer the questions that Pearl posted.

1). Are you working with a therapist on these issues?

No, I have mixed feeling on going to a therapist.  The intellectual, practical side of me knows I really need to but my mom had a very bad experience with therapy years ago and I have also been to some very ineffective therapists myself.  However, the main reason I hesitate is because I’ve recently identified one of my issues is that I wait for others to tell me what to think, feel, or believe far too much.  Originally it was my mother who was always right in my head and I learned to ignore my inner voice when she said something I did not agree with.  I see now that I only transferred that role from her to my wife when I broke away from my family.  Lately, I’m trying to give myself credit and listen to my own feelings and thoughts.  I guess I’m scared if I go to a therapist, I will just start going by whatever they say and stop learning to think for myself.  Also, I still feel guilty talking about my wife behind her back like this.  I feel kind of bad even writing these posts because we always swore we would keep no secrets. 


2). Are you still with your wife?

Yes, we are still together although things have been changing since December. I don’t know what to believe so I guess I mistrust everything she does. I know I’ve pulled away a lot and I don’t rush to take care or her or comfort her all the time like I used to. It hurts her and I hate that, but I’m so confused.


3). Do you feel like you are actually heterosexual? Or bi? Or?

I feel heterosexual but my wife is the only relationship I’ve ever been in, so I don’t know what that says.  I was raised religious and taught homosexuality was a sin.  I had a hard time overcoming that at first but, now, I’m glad I am more open-minded and pro-gay rights.  I just don’t feel gay myself.  I love my wife a lot!  I just don’t feel in-love with her.  I’ve never been in-love with anyone, though.


4).Do you feel like you were manipulated/abused by her?

I guess I feel that she was verbally abusive, and I did fear she might become physically abusive, a few times during the years before I almost left her. She screamed and raged such vile things at me every day and I believed them all. For example, one time I forgot to make a stop for her before work and she convinced me that if I really cared about her or others more than myself than I would not have forgotten and I was obviously too selfish to care that I was going to disappoint everyone by forgetting… But she started taking medication for depression and anxiety and the outburst stopped. Now she says she has no memory of ever lashing out at me all those years.  I wonder if that is true or if she just says she doesn’t remember.

She also doesn’t remember many of the lies I caught her in at that time.  One day she called me to come home early from work because she was so upset after witnessing a horrific car accident.  I left work and rushed home because she was hysterical, but something seemed off.  I actually called the police department the next day to ask about this horrible crash and was told there had been no accidents on that interstate the day before and nothing fatal on any street in the area.  When I confronted her about the lie she insisted that it was real and that it had happened.  This led to a lot of yelling, crying, accusations, etc.  Some time later she told me that she sometimes lost time and that she must have had an episode and imagined it. 

Over time I’ve suspected many of her claims and dramatic stories were untrue. She told me early on that she had given up a baby girl shortly before we met. She said no family would help her even when she’d had to have an emergency a c-section. Years later, though, I realized that she did not have a scar on her abdomen. She also showed me a picture of a baby girl and said it was hers that had been adopted by a family in another state. One day I found the identical picture in a drawer in her mom’s house who told me it was an old photo of her niece. So, one of the first things we really bonded over was my helping her deal with the trauma of being raped and giving up her baby, and I don’t know if any of it was even true.
There have been other stories that I found out were lies, but she says she doesn’t remember lying or the depression makes her really confused. She is scared that I will stop believing her or trusting her even though she doesn’t think she is lying at the time, She seems so scared and genuine, it is hard for me to imagine any of it is intentional. But, when I read about “red flags” in relationships, dealing with manipulators, or BPD, I can see them all.

As for being manipulated, I guess I wonder if I am being manipulated into doing a lot of stuff that she could do herself.  She suffers chronic pain that gets worse every year so she spends a lot of time in bed and can’t stand much to cook or clean, etc. But, when her mom visits or when we go to a fun place, it seems like she can walk a lot more. She says it still hurts, but I wish she could do more to help me, For example, our oldest had a job and needed to be picked up at 10:00 or 11:00 almost every night. Since I get up so early to get the kids ready and myself to work in the mornings, I asked my wife if she could pick our oldest up once in awhile so I could go to sleep earlier. She told me I didn’t know how painful it was for her to take the back steps or just to get in and out of the car, She was offended because I clearly didn’t believe that she already helped when she could or I thought she should be doing more. I didn’t ask again but that next weekend she managed to walk almost two hours at the mall with me. I knew she was hurting a lot by the time we got home, but it still seemed strange that she would put up with the pain to shop but not to help me out some. 


5). Which BPD traits would you say she has?

She is always worried that I’ll leave her or that I’d want to send her away.  She gets upset if I go to the store without telling her and if I do tell her first she gets sad and wants to know why I didn’t want to wait and go with her. If just once in a while I want to read before bed instead of talking or watching TV with her, she acts in a way that makes me feel like I’m doing something wrong and hurting her.  I feel like my time is never my own.

She has massive mood swings, depression, and extreme anxiety. She gets hurt or offended so easily and even if I apologize she doesn’t get over it for days while she barely get out of bed or just give me the silent treatment.  When she gets angry or loses her temper she flies into a rage.  Even though she stopped doing it to me she does it to the kids.

She doesn’t have good or healthy relationship. She falls out with her siblings and relatives a lot and doesn’t keep friends, but it is strange because she is a really kind person. I just feel like she expects so much from everyone and they always disappoint her.

She has unrealistic expectations about other things too, She comes up with big, unrealistic projects or ideas but they are all too much for us to handle... .or me because I do most of the work. If she has a big idea and I point out why it is too hard or expensive, or if I just admit I don’t want to do it, she is completely devastated, often crying and sinking into a depressed state.

She has a lot of compulsive behaviors and always hates that she hasn’t done more with her life.  She says she tries so hard but no one understands that.  She worries all the time that people will think she is lying or faking things.  She has all of these rules for people, especially in our house.  Like, she cannot handle certain smells or words being mispronounced and she is very picky about how the kids wear their clothes. (Not that she is mean about it, but it bothers her so much that we try to do it her way all the time so she isn’t sad or upset).


6). Let me suggest that it is never too late to change your life and set it another direction. Okay?

I try to believe that. 


7). Are you still having thoughts of suicide?

Not right now. I want a better answer.  About five or six weeks ago I had another real low point, though.  It just felt so tempting to take the easy way out but, at the same time, I knew it would be wrong to end my own life.  What actually pulled me through was my dogs and the fact that I didn’t trust that they would be cared for enough if I was gone. Kind of sad that the only ones I feel would really be affected by my death are my dogs, but that was enough.  It’s not like I don’t think anyone would be sad.  I know that all of my family and co-workers, even old friends, would be terribly sad if I died.  But, they would get over it quickly and no one would be any worse off.  Does that make sense?  I just couldn’t see that as enough reason to keep going through the exhausting stress and drama that is my constant life…. Anyway, I almost drove myself to the ER that day because I was afraid of how I was feeling.  In the end, though, I didn’t think that would even help so I just pulled through on my own with my dogs. 


I don’t know if I answered all of your concerns, but I feel like I wrote too much again.  I guess it is hard to know what to say or leave out when I’ve kept it all inside so many year.  I don't mean to make you have to read a book each time, though. So, thanks again for even reading this.  It means a lot.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

No, this is great that you are able to write this all out and think this all out! Your writing is moving and poignant and it is a privilege to learn about you. For now, don't let yourself worry about length, there is a lot to process here and it will help lay the foundation for folks getting to know you and provide you some much needed support!

I also think if you ever did go to a therapist you'd save yourself a lot of time if you showed the therapist all that you've sketched out here!

There is so much to talk about but I want to focus on what for me sticks out as the "big one"... .the whole basis for the relationship. It is a very big deal to have been manipulated so strongly by someone, or perhaps, and also, to have such a strong desire to "please" another person that they could get us to provide them sex, and really a whole life together, when that person, that relationship, is not really an expression of our sexual preference. I noticed that you were so desiring of approval even by your family, saw how people reacted to the marriage, that you went along - you wanted to make them happy at a big cost to you. A massive one. So, yes, living a lie, and a big one.  And this one needs some attention, and I am no professional please keep in mind, but this one needs some time and attention.

Why do you think it is you have never been able to be in love with anyone? Can you ever imagine a life where you were in love with someone, in a relationship in line with your sexual preferences? Big picture, I guess my question is, do you want to spend your life with your wife? Out of fear? Convenience? In some ways as possibly, your notion, as a victim of a "manipulator"?

Not easy questions with easy answers after all these years, but I think this is the core... .and it may be the last question for you to reach in this journey of unraveling these issues, I can't say.

One reason I relate to this notion of "living life as a lie" is that I made a special promise to myself, as a kid, never to do that - in those specific words. My mom had some affairs while my dad was terminally ill, and since I figured this out, but kept quiet (I recognized it, but had no words to deal with at that young age) and that made me feel as if I was participating in the lying involved in her behaviors. I didn't like it. At all. I managed to do pretty well avoiding lies of any kind in my life, sure I kept some things to myself, another tough earlier relationship I had, but I never had to hide so much or deal so much with lies as I've done in my current relationship. Okay, enough about me, my point is that this is a big theme for you, and it matters... .and is something that is worth exploring... .at your own pace, but how can you move towards a life that would be more fulfilling for you? And what would such a life look like?

Again, I'm no therapist just a peer, they would probably do a lot of things before asking that big of a question, but I just want to signpost it here as a place you could explore in time.

For now... .do you currently feel manipulated? Do you feel safe in the life you live?What has been changing since December?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[LivingLies]

I've been thinking a lot about the replies and reactions to my story posted here.  It is kind of strange how things that are staring you in the face can be completely hidden from you until someone points them out.  I have been so consumed with trying to understand why my wife acts as she does and what I can do to react the right way, but I never thought about why I act the way I do.  I feel embarrassed and ashamed that my life is such a mess.  I even feel stupid at times for doing things that I've done.  But, I'm not sure I ever stopped to wonder why I did them or why I let my life end up this way.

I mean, all of my life I've always tried to make other people happy.  For the most part, it makes me happy to make other people happy.  My mom used to call me her "joyful song" because I kept everyone smiling.  I liked being that way, I think.   But, when I have problems or sadness people don't really want to hear it and don't really like to talk to me.  It never has seemed fair because I'm the one people used to come to for comfort and understanding but it was like it messed up their universe if I needed the same.  I'm not trying to sound like I'm feeling sorry for myself.  I've just always been aware that all of the love I've ever been given has come with conditions.  I know that, at least in theory, not everyone loves like that and some people give unconditional love.  I'm just very aware that I've never had it.  I know my parents love me, but I also know they judge me and expect me to be a certain way.  And, in all honesty, no one has ever really known me or even seemed to want to.  So, their love is only so deep and I know that. There were times with my wife that I thought someone finally saw me and loved me entirely for me.

Pearl, in your reply you said:

Why do you think it is you have never been able to be in love with anyone? Can you ever imagine a life where you were in love with someone, in a relationship in line with your sexual preferences? Big picture, I guess my question is, do you want to spend your life with your wife? Out of fear? Convenience? In some ways as possibly, your notion, as a victim of a "manipulator"?

My biggest, deepest dream my entire life has been to fall in love with someone who truly loved me back.  I daydreamed about it before I even know what romance or passion was.  I wanted to be connected to someone, have a bond, that was like us against the world.  So, yeah, I can imagine it.  I imagine it every day.  I imagine someone who want ME to be happy, can see when I'm hurting and who is happy just being with me. And, yes, I definitely want a man.  I’ve never been attracted to women physically.  I just don't know if I can believe that is possible.  Maybe some people love like that or find love like that.  For some reason, though, it isn't in the cards for me. I don't know why I've never been in love and no one has ever been in love with me.  I wish I did.

I've been lonely a lot in my life.  Not alone, but lonely.  The only times I have not felt lonely were with my wife.  She truly has been my best friend.  Now, though, I wonder how much of it was an act or manipulation or not what I thought it was.  So, my confusion makes me unable to trust her, I guard myself all the time, and I'm lonelier than ever. If I could go back in time, I would never let the relationship develop intimately.  I wish we could have just remained best friends and nothing more but, I see now, she always wanted something more.  As I've pulled away she told me she could never go back to just being friends. A few weeks ago I finally told her that I just wasn't gay and couldn't be intimate like that any longer.  She was inconsolable, kept predicting that I'd want a divorce and fell into an even deeper depression.  The thing is, I can't imagine not having her in my life, not being a part of her family.  I've spent about half my life with her.  But I don't want to live a lie anymore either.

I wish I could know what was true and what I could trust.  Is she just a very depressed person who has been victimized a lot and doesn't always handle her emotions well, but she truly does love me and wants me to be happy? Or, have I been played for all these years to take care of her, provide for her, and be something she can control?  If I knew the truth of that maybe I could figure out what to do.  How can I figure that out?

But, now I'm back to trying to understand her and not myself, aren't I?  I feel kind of stuck.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

Nice to hear from you again! Glad you are getting your thoughts out here. About your wife I cannot say for sure, but a therapist might be able to help sort it out. I know how hard it is to go to them sometimes.  I went to a therapist who asked me out on a date at the first session, and kept pursuing me after that, and I had to report him. I just wanted some help getting over a break up, and with my insurance at the time, it was like the price of lunch, so I thought why not skip a meal and spend time with someone who is willing to listen. But all in all, I think some therapists can be helpful, and it is worth staying open to this option if you can.

As you describe it I do hear that she was manipulating at times. The hard part is... .well, most people do have some good in them, so it can make it very hard, especially when they are our intimate partners, to recognize that may have done some pretty unfair or even abusive things to us. I think in time a therapist might be able to help you discover how to trust your own judgement a bit more.

So, do you think you could meet a man? Explore that option at some point? That seems like a nice dream to work towards. What would it take to get there? That sounds so nice, this dream of someone giving you love the way you give to others. I know it must feel hard, that a lot of your relationships have felt one-sided. I've felt that a bit at times in life too. It would so great if you could have lots of love in return! 

with deep compassion, pearl.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi LivingLies,
Welcome. This community has helped me so much over the last three years. Thank you for telling your story.        I see a lot of parallels to my first marriage to a BPD husband. (I've married two of them, but the second is truly a nice guy, other than the BPD.)

I thought I'd share some high points, well--low points to be honest, from my first marriage, so you can see how I, too, felt unbelievably trapped after so many years.

We got together shortly after I graduated from college. I enjoyed him as a friend, but he wanted more. It began when I had plans with my roommate to move to a ski area and be ski bums for the winter. She had a job commitment that kept her working longer than she had anticipated, so my soon-to-be boyfriend suggested that he and I scout the ski areas for a place to live. We checked out areas in our state, but didn't find anything we liked, so we drove hundreds of miles to Colorado, and during that trip, went from casual dating to being in a relationship. I remember feeling kind of trapped, as I really wasn't that into him, but I went along with it anyway.

We found a house and suddenly we were a couple, living together. My roommate joined us a month later. Things were rocky at times, but other times he was so nice and affirming in ways I never had been appreciated that I ignored the bad times. However, it kept getting worse and finally he decided he would return home. I was sad for a day, but then greatly relieved that he was gone.

That relative peace wasn't to last as he decided a month or so later to come back and visit. It was nice to see him again and I hadn't yet found anyone to get involved with. Since spring skiing was nearing an end and the mud cycle was beginning, he was able to convince me to go back to the beach community where we had met.

Fast forward 18 years and I had become further estranged from my parents, I had put up with constant verbal abuse, occasional physical abuse. He had dozens of affairs, had been financially irresponsible with the business we had created, and I was constantly working, trying to do all the things that he neglected to do: housekeeping, meal preparation, bookkeeping, assorted business tasks, etc. He believed that I should spend far more time working because his time was somehow more valuable than mine.

He, like your friend, had a very sensitive side: loving to animals (far kinder to them than he ever was to me). And he had a history of "abuse"--people had been "cruel" to him all his life. (In retrospect, it makes sense that people may not have treated him as well as he would have liked. He certainly didn't treat me very nicely and I tried to be kind and overlooked his shortcomings.)

Our lives were so intertwined it seemed impossible that I could ever be free. We had bought rural property and shared animals we both loved. We operated a business together, though I still had to work another job to keep us afloat financially.

I, too, occasionally thought of suicide, but like you, the thoughts of dear animal friends kept me from doing it. I remember repeatedly telling myself that "I was waiting to die."

At some point, I had finally had enough of the verbal and physical abuse, the violence, the infidelity. One night I made a bargain with myself that if ever again I experienced violence or infidelity, I'd have to make a final choice: either I'd leave or I'd resign myself to dying in this relationship.

Well, the violence happened. That night I slept in a different room, a knife in my hand. I told myself that if he were to assault me in my sleep that I would fight to the death and I didn't care what happened. Fortunately he left me alone, otherwise I would probably be in prison at this moment. (This was such a departure for me as I've never wanted to hurt a living thing ever. Even vacuuming up spider webs makes me feel guilty.)

That night was effectively the end of my marriage. I had no idea how I was going to untangle my life from his, but I did it, step by step. And I must say that it was the best decision I've ever made. I never, not for a moment, have regretted it.

I was single for some time, dated a nice man with PTSD and a crazy young daughter, so I kept myself from getting too involved. Then I got together with a man I'd known for many years with whom I was totally infatuated. I tried to take it slowly, but when you've had a crush on someone for a couple of decades, that's not easy. It took me a few years to realize that he has BPD traits too. Just not extreme, like my first husband. But I grew up with a BPD mom, so those patterns that would send normal people running for the hills, just seem like "family" to me.

Currently my life is good. What I've learned here keeps my relationship running smoothly, but that wasn't always the case. I was totally burned out, angry and disappointed that I'd gotten back into another dysfunctional relationship pattern. But since he's BPD-lite, this marriage is far easier to manage. So I'm happy.

Sorry for the long story, but I wanted you to know that there's someone else out there whose life seemed impossibly intertwined with an extremely difficult person, who managed to escape. I'm certainly not telling you to do that, but I want you to know it's possible if that's what you want to do.

     

Cat

[pearlsw]

Hi Cat,   (and LivingLies, spero, Red5)

Thanks so much for sharing your story at this time and in this way! It is so inspirational! I find it always makes such a difference when we share like this in this community because it helps us to rethink our own situations when we hear the insights of others!

LivingLies, what do you think?

warmly, pearl.

[SamwizeGamgee]

LivingLies - I want to make a better response after more thought and reading.  But, I have to chime in and say that I identify with many of your feelings.  
First off, and maybe my only real point, is that You are Right!  You are Okay!
I am so proud of you and happy that you're able to identify so many of your feelings, your reality, and that you are starting to see through what everyone else want's and thinks - and even the fake "cover story" to keep people close.  I hear you!
We have very different reasons for being where we are, but I really identify with your feelings.  I would suggest to let the changes inside happen.  I found that as I learned about BPD, and self-care, and got healthier and happier, suddenly thing around me go better too.  So much so that I started to really blame myself for being the problem all along.  However, when I think about it, my wife being "better" is a result of my boundaries, and refusing to trigger more crazy, as well as my better internal situation.  My problems aren't solved, but, I have my own "inside space" to work on them.

My self talk lately includes a phrase I made up that helps: "there are two kinds of people in the world.  You; and everybody else."

I want to follow more of your story, but, for now I just had to say that you are okay, and making great discoveries and progress.  Welcome!

[LivingLies]

Hi,

Again, I just want to say how much I appreciate all of your support. It makes me feel less alone.

Cat, reading your story made me feel such relief.  I’m sorry for what you went through, but I thought I was the only one and I feel better knowing I’m not.  I hope that makes sense.

Red5, I read that article on Cognitive Dissonance and I especially like the quote, “It is not wrong to be wrong.”  I know I have been wrong about a lot of things and I regret a lot of my actions, but maybe I don’t have to hate myself for them all of the time.

SamwizeGamgee, thank you for being so encouraging and I like your phrase, "there are two kinds of people in the world.  You; and everybody else." It’s nice to think that I’m OK not being like everyone else,  Growing up I always knew the parts about me that people didn’t want to see.  I was too hyper, too emotional, too messy, etc…  I’ve tried so hard to do things right that I don’t always know what is even natural to do if I am just being me.

Pearl, it was so nice how you accepted my “daydream” of being in love as perfectly fine and realistic.  I’ve always been made fun of or “given a hard time” for any of the ideas or dreams I’ve had.  I learned as young as grade school that if something were truly important to me, like getting a part in a play or writing to a favorite celebrity, I could never share it with anyone or it would get ruined some how.  So, sharing online that I still have girlish dreams of romance and love… and NOT being made to feel embarrassed or stupid about it… means so much you  have no idea.

Life has been so busy that I never have a lot of time to “work on myself” but it isn’t all bad.  My career has really taken off this year, making me work extra hours, but I love what I’m doing.  I used to just work to pay the bills and have insurance, but all of my energy was spent at home.  I’m not doing that now and, although taking care of the family and the house is still a big job, I feel like I have something of my own too.  I do find myself wanting to keep my family drama out of my work world, though, and it isn’t always easy.  My wife always has a crises and wants me to come home.  My kids are very troubled and have a lot of doctor appointments.  It would be nice if my wife handled those things, but she is always in too much pain or suffering anxiety so she doesn’t.  I’ve stopped expecting her to help so I just use sick time or schedule hours off from work to take the kids where they need to be or handle their crises. 

I don’t know anymore if my wife really suffers that much or if she manipulates me.  In either case, though, I don’t have a partner.  She complains that I see her like one of the kids or just a burden, and it upsets her that the kids consider me the mom in the house, but I’m not sure what she expects when she doesn’t do anything.  I mean, on one hand I feel sorry for her because her life is very empty, but I also resent her because she kept me from having a full life too so she wouldn’t be alone.  Whether she intentionally meant to or not, she kept me stuck and lifeless for so long.

Now that I’ve started to want to live again I’m trying to stop following her rules so much.  It is actually easier to just give her what she wants or do it her way because I’ve always hated confrontation and I can’t stand making anyone feel badly.  Yesterday I stopped at the store on the way home from work because I knew we needed a few things.  That may not be a big deal to some, but it was for me.  Usually I would have gone home first to see if she wanted to come with me, or at least called her, and she would either have told me to wait until she felt like going with me tomorrow or told me to drive all the way home to get her first so we could go together and then pushed me to stay out later than I wanted to because she was bored.  So, when I got home with the groceries she was hurt and disappointed like I knew she would be.  She told me she wished she could have come with me because she hasn’t been out of the house in awhile and it gets depressing for her.  I explained that I didn’t want to do that much driving or be out late because I was tired from working all day.  This got me the pouty silent treatment for a few hours, but I didn’t give in to it. Does any of that behavior sound familiar?  It just felt normal for me but when I write it down it seems a bit messed up. 

Today I’m actually home from work with the stomach flu.  I don’t have time to rest, though, so I’m working on bills, keeping up on work emails, doing laundry, etc.  Still, as she watches TV in bed or in the recliner she constantly calls for me to bring her something to drink or make her lunch or yells that the dog is chewing something he shouldn’t.  Is it wrong that I’m getting resentful of this because I am the one who is running a fever?  She manages somehow when I’m at work most days, so why does she want me to do everything for her now?  She says she can do it but it will just be very painful for her and she doesn’t ask for things unless it is too hard to do it herself.  Then she always follows it up with “You know I try my best, right?” or “You don’t think I’m faking, do you?”  I still love her and I still enjoy spending time with her sometimes.  But, I do resent her too and I feel badly for that.  I wish I had a real partner and I wish I had a little less responsibility.

Sorry to complain a bit much today.  It is just nice to be honest about how I really feel for once. 

LivingLies

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

Thanks for checking in with us! Sorry to hear you are not feeling well, and yet having to take care of others and seem to not be getting any sick time pampering yourself!

I can report that even in the best of circumstances our partners can seem annoying or disappointing at times!  But I can see how deep this is for you as you are the one doing so much of the giving for others and getting less in return. It is very impressive how you decided to just do what you needed to do in terms of this grocery shopping trip! Yes, our partners can pout, but sometimes things just have to be the way they are. Your needs matter too! A lot! Glad you just made an “executive decision” and did what needed to be done.

Of course you can and should have your dreams about love! There is certainly time to at least make an effort in that direction! Any ideas yet how to step towards that future?

Sounds like you have some satisfying work! That’s great to hear!

wishing you lots of love and dreams! pearl.

[LivingLies]

I think I might be part of the problem, or at least making things worse. I tried opening up to my wife today about feeling taken for granted, like she & the kids just expect me to do whatever they need but never worry that I'm exhausted and overwhelmed. Her reaction was to be hurt that I saw her that way and actually seemed to be trying to understand. Later on, though, I caught her in a lie and for the first time I called her out ob it. Well, all Hell broke lose then. But, I knew that is how she would react so why did I do it?

After our earlier conversation, the day had been getting progressively worse with not having money for things we needed and the kids misbehaving. She stayed in bed a lot of the day, but that is normal. I knew I was grouchy because I haven't been sleeping well. Was I just taking it out on her? Maybe she realky didn't mean to lie.

It was silly, really. She'd been asking me to make berry pancakes with compote for two days. The only reason I went to the store today (where I suffered the humiliation of a declined credit card) was to buy the ingrediants and we had told the kids about it because it is a special treat. So, after the second time I shared with her how frustrated and unappreciated I felt, I left to walk the dogs. When I got home she was starting to make frozen burgers for dinner and said I could have the night off. Now, that was a sweet thing to do. However, after I thanked her for the offer, I explained that the whole reason I went to the store was because she wanted pancakes and the kids were excited about it so I wanted to just go ahead and make them. This seemed to hurt her and make her very sad. She said that every time she tried to help she did it wrong or got shot down by me, but then I complain that I have to do everything. I tried to say the gesture was nice but I need it more than just when she wants me out of a bad mood. I said that if I had not been upset and grouchy earlier she never would have tried to make dinner. She blew her top at that! She yelled that I didn't know her thoughts and that she had been thinking of making dinner tonight since yesterday evening!

OK... .now I know that can't be true because we had been talking about how I was going to make everyone pancakes all day. So there is no way she had had any thought of making dinner so I wouldn't have to. When I started to point out this logic to her she cut me off and tried to end the conversation. When I wouldn't let her do that she tried to say she meant she intended to make the pancakes herself. When I pointed out she had been starting to make burger, not pancakes, and she didn't know how to make compote, she yelled that she didn't appreciate being called a liar.

That's when I told her I didn't appreciate being lied to.

Yeah, I actually said that... .Of course she lost it and screamed at me to go to hell, throwing herself on the bed wailing. So, 10 minutes earlier she was making me dinner and I had to go pick a fight. Why?

I've suspected her lying and manipulation for awhile but I've never said it. Now it is out there and I don't know what to do. She'll expect an apology but I know she lied. Do I try to smooth things over? How do I deal with this?

And now I'm alone in my car crying while my oldest fixes something for her and her sister to eat. I feel the the most worthless person in the world.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your partner. These things happen. It sounds like you've let these feelings build up and when they came out at this time and in this way... .there were even more problems to deal with!

It is not easy. Sometimes one small gesture feels like "too little too late", not enough, almost feels more insulting... .but in this case I think if you had had the ability to pivot and be in the moment and just show gratitude things may have gone differently.

A lot of what one can learn here is about altering one's own communication. In that moment where you wanted to let all of your past hurts out instead of just be in the present moment... .well, the hurt came out instead.

I have learned at times that it is better to hold my tongue and show my appreciation when my partner finally does something "good" then to let all that extra built up hurt out. Or if I do let some out, also show a lot of gratitude for the thing he is, finally, doing right. We do have to allow our partners to offer what they can and show thanks for that... .that is how relationships survive.

On the other hand, given the issues in your relationship, I also want to acknowledge the importance of your assertiveness. You have held a lot back over the years and it is understandable that you feel like you've been in a one-sided situation for a long, long time - a situation where your needs are often not being met and you aren't even sure you are in the right relationship for you. This all adds up!

Maybe she said what she said about the meal to just cover herself a bit. If you feel it is lie than maybe it is, but from here, it also seems possible to me she was wanting to eat burgers and she may have wanted to do something nice. The exact timing of when the thought to do this nice thing, okay, it may not fit perfectly, but it did happen at some point along the way. Sometimes we are imprecise, sometimes this kind of thing can be an outright lie. That really only matters, in m book, if you are hearing such lies all the time, or it was just a slip up of speech. We aren't always so precise and perfect especially when under stress... .but only you can say really.

with deep compassion, pearl.

[LivingLies]

Yes, that makes sense. I think I have a lot to learn, Pearl.  In trying to do everything right, I've done so much wrong. I just feel so alone. Thank you for talking to me.

[pearlsw]

Hi LivingLies,

No worries dear! I make mistakes every day with this stuff! It hurts. But I just keep trying, until I need a break. We're here!

with  , pearl.

[pearlsw]

Hi Living Lies,

Just checking in... .how are you doing lately? How has your week been?

warmly, pearl.