She finally caved and wants to "figure it out"

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Looking for some advice here... .  Many know that much like everyone here its been a tough road leading up to the divorce.
Last night she finally seemed to put the guns down and agreed that its probably best to just figure things out and stop spending money on lawyers.  I didn't believe it at first but she came into my room with a very well thought out 50/50 parenting plan and within 30 minutes we talked through it and came to an agreement.

She's asked to take the week to amicably work through the remaining items of support and living situation.  She says she would like to have everything wrapped up and signed off by next week.  Really?  Wrap this up and be done in a few weeks?  I can move out and start my healing?

Not sure where this is coming from.  She has been very keen on the money side of the equation.  She has been really worried about the monthly cash flow and support she'll receive not quite being enough to keep the kids in activities.  She's complained about spending the kids college fund on lawyers... .  Do you think that she really cares and wants to do whats best for the kids and stop the continual damage or do you think she is more self serving and realizes her only way to keep money is to wrap this up with as minimal lawyers and court dates as possible?

I guess it doesnt really matter, as long as it keeps happening... .  So has anyone had their stbx just finally cave?  Just finally put the weapons away?

Any thoughts or advice on how to keep things in this amicable frame of mind?  Even if it "costs" me a bit more?

[ozmatoz]

Looking for some advice here... .  Many know that much like everyone here its been a tough road leading up to the divorce.
Last night she finally seemed to put the guns down and agreed that its probably best to just figure things out and stop spending money on lawyers.  I didn't believe it at first but she came into my room with a very well thought out 50/50 parenting plan and within 30 minutes we talked through it and came to an agreement.

She's asked to take the week to amicably work through the remaining items of support and living situation.  She says she would like to have everything wrapped up and signed off by next week.  Really?  Wrap this up and be done in a few weeks?  I can move out and start my healing?

Not sure where this is coming from.  She has been very keen on the money side of the equation.  She has been really worried about the monthly cash flow and support she'll receive not quite being enough to keep the kids in activities.  She's complained about spending the kids college fund on lawyers... .  Do you think that she really cares and wants to do whats best for the kids and stop the continual damage or do you think she is more self serving and realizes her only way to keep money is to wrap this up with as minimal lawyers and court dates as possible?

I guess it doesnt really matter, as long as it keeps happening... .  So has anyone had their stbx just finally cave?  Just finally put the weapons away?

Any thoughts or advice on how to keep things in this amicable frame of mind?  Even if it "costs" me a bit more?

[livednlearned]

Last night she finally seemed to put the guns down and agreed that its probably best to just figure things out and stop spending money on lawyers.

My experience is to focus on actions and not words.

BPD is so much about emotional regulation, and a puff of wind can upend the cart.

It is wonderful to think she may be in a period of emotional regulation, and can problem solve and make good decisions for herself and the kids.

You may want to save the champagne for the signed agreement, and even then, be prepared for some dysregulated behaviors.

She says she would like to have everything wrapped up and signed off by next week. 

This might be a good time to go neutral and be mindful of your own emotions, since she is likely to react to them, and any actions she perceives in a negative light.

Are you still living in the house with her?

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Hey oz... .I understand your confusion and hesitation here. I think it is possible she may be feeling one or the other or both. Maybe she had a moment of clarity. I hope so. It sounds positive. I suggest you take some time to think it over carefully and have your lawyer review it. Does it matter why she's doing it? Do you think the end result is reasonable and can you live with it?

I think my ex is different in this case. He caved a couple of times during the whole process but then raged over the unfairness of it all and put us back to square one several times. He went through two lawyers. The second one was much better and helped convince him our offer was more than fair. I think he wanted to get everything and leave me practically penniless. He wanted me to take 100% of all the debt, pay him the maximum alimony, pay for all of the kids' medical and dental costs, pay for 100% of daycare, pay for my attorney AND all of his attorney fees, and so on. That was not going to happen. The court had already determined that our earnings split was 60% (me) and 40% (him). In the end, he basically "shut down" and seemed to give up. He barely said one word during the settlement agreement and eventually signed it.

In the end, I think what we ended up with is more than fair to him. I compromised where I felt comfortable and tried to keep the kids' best interest in mind. I let him have his pick of the furniture and household stuff. He took all of the nice stuff and left me with the stuff that was falling apart. I was fine with that. It can all be replaced. I made sure I had my photo albums and things that can't be replaced. I ended up paying him the maximum alimony and paying for all of the children's medical, dental, and daycare but I get to claim both kids for taxes every other year to offset the cost. He signed off on it during the divorce but now he wants me to change it because it's "not fair". His contribution to child care is less than 10% of what it costs me.

It's tough. Maybe think about what you can and can't live with. In the end, my monthly budget was in the red. Money was very tight but I was ecstatic about being free. Giving him money every month was extremely painful in the beginning. At first it felt like I was rewarding him for abusing me. Now I consider it the cost of my freedom. My lawyer and I had to make the agreement as specific as possible including what constitutes an emergency (long story). So that is something to think about too. Try to not let anything be vague and be as specific as you can in case it comes up later.

Another example, I know a guy whose divorce agreement specified neither of them could file for a specific chapter of bankruptcy. His ex got the house in the divorce (huge, expensive house). Afterwards, she filed for a different chapter of bankruptcy trying to get out of paying for the mortgage. So far she's managed to not pay any of the mortgage for over a year and keeps finding new ways to extend and stall the foreclosure process. Meanwhile, the house loan is in my friend's name and he can't do anything about it right now. If she sells the house, he won't see one dime from it. She's also getting most of his paycheck because she lied about how much money she makes (long story) and she got away with it. She managed to get his car repossessed because the loan was in her name, she refused to pay it, he tried to pay it but the loan company wouldn't give him the account information, and she wouldn't release it. She's smart and sneaky and found ways around many things. However, he's happy to be divorced from her and chalks it up to his cost of freedom. Sorry for the horror story. It shows what he is willing to live with to be free from her.

I also suggest verifying the numbers add up. For example, my ex tried to claim that daycare cost $200 per month which would mean he wouldn't pay one dime of child care when it was really over $200 per week. It made a huge difference in the calculation.

I think it comes down trying to cover yourself as much as you can without making yourself crazy. I really hope she is being reasonable and you get through this quickly with less pain. Maybe she really does want it to be over quickly and isn't trying to gouge you. I really truly hope so.

[ForeverDad]

Hope for the best... .but plan for the worst.

LnL is so right, this may be how she feels right now but anything could trigger her to switch realities and decide up is down and down is up.

Be forewarned that even if you get a signed agreement, vetted by your lawyers, duly notarized and metaphorically sealed with blood, when it is filed with the court to become an order the judge could first ask each of you if you agree to it then she could very well, there at the very last second, say No and court will toss it.  Not saying that's how it could or would go, but it might.  Don't count your chickens until they hatch and either start crowing or lay eggs.

So this might end up taking time and delaying your case.  Delay is a common tactic, even if unconsciously so.

A thought... .if your case is already filed but no orders yet, then maybe you could together file a minimal set of ground rules as your temp order with equal time and a few other items as a starter framework.  What this does is at least make it harder for her to later convince the court to cast you as the non-primary alternate-weekend dad.  Courts are usually reluctant to backpedal what has previously been working unless both parents agree or there is compelling basis to change it.  Around here custody and a parenting schedule are the two biggest issues in a high conflict divorce, okay, closely followed by financial issues.

As you hammer out the issues, be careful our our biggest flaw — our otherwise most excellent quality — our sense of fairness and compassion.  You can't afford to be overly fair or overly generous when it comes to the kids.  (If you want to be kind, fair and generous then do it after you've got good terms locked in.  Why?  You can't count on the Ex to reciprocate your goodness.)  So try this... .ask yourself, "Five or ten years from now, looking back will I still think these terms she wants are okay?"

[ozmatoz]

Most definitely cautious.  Frankly I am losing sleep over waiting for her to flip back to some angry vindictive state.

I appreciate the words of advice, can I ask for a few more?

She does want some ridiculous things.  She believes that I should pay 100% for all extra curricular and all non-covered medical expenses.
She claims she just won't have the money to pay for them.  (its expensive to live out here I can understand her fears).
She claims that she won't be able to work as much as "she wants" or full time.  (Ok... .she'll have the kids less than ever and I'm expected to maintain a full time job with equal parenting time... .why can't she?)

She states that she wants to continue to be there for her family in her role and that I need to continue my role as the provider even if we are no longer together... .

I'm not quite sure how to translate that.  Does that mean she wants the 50/50 plan she painstakingly put together and to just be free from as much responsibilities as she can? (she has also stated she does not want to take the dogs -we have three, or the cat)

Or is she saying she really wants the kids more but is afraid to push something less than 50/50 knowing that I have enough ammo to get it if this went before a judge?

I am trying to schedule a 4-way meeting with our attorneys next week to try and hammer out a deal.  She says she doesn't want to pay the attorneys and that she just wants to work out some temp stipulations now and continue final settlement talks with them later.  Sounds like delay tactics but I do know my attorney has been slow to get financials over to her.

I know that none of you can read her mind, I'm just hoping for some outside opinions here.

LnL I am trying to stay as nuetral as possible while not putting up with a ridiculous ton of BS.  Yes at the moment I am living in the house.  She asked that I try moving out this weekend and see if we can make the parenting plan work... .

I_Am_The_Fire I am trying to walk the fine line of what I feel comfortable and fair vs what is my cost of freedom.  I feel like I have to start with vague and work my way to specifics.  She often gets hung up on details and cannot see big picture.  A fight over who buys dog food could derail an entire negotiation.

ForeverDad I do see delay tactics but I do feel they are unintentional... .its just seems its her way of doing things.  Another fine line of pushing things along and tipping her back into angry land.  I know I should hammer out some signed temp orders but at the same time I feel that gives her an excuse to restart the clock on final orders... .If I were to bet, she really doesn't want to move out of the house.  However it is good advice to "lock in" the 50/50 with the kids while its on the table.  I am going to give that some thought today.

Thank you!

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I hear you. I also agree with you in that what she wants does seem ridiculous and unreasonable. In this respect, she does sound an awful lot like my ex. I was the financial breadwinner during our entire marriage. During and after the divorce, it seemed like he expected me to continue that. I refused, in general. Even though we agreed to 50/50, he expected me to provide all of the kids' clothes and toiletries during his time. His own lawyer even told him in front of all of us that he needs to provide all of that himself during his time. It's also in the agreement.

Since our wages were deemed to be a 60/40 split, we were to split extra curricular expenses and such 60/40. In reality, sometimes I pay for it and sometimes he pays for it. We're figuring it out as we go. He doesn't stick to that part of the agreement and it's a struggle to enforce it so I've let it go for the most part. That's me, though. So maybe your attorney can come up with an idea of how to split those costs more appropriately. My attorney did different worksheets for different scenarios to get an idea of how to split the expenses. I had to estimate the best I could (with as much documentation as I could provide) to get an idea of how much extra curricular expenses would cost so we could accurately divide them or share them.

We even had to put in a stipulation that he had to get his own place within months of the divorce (he was living with a relative and claimed that's why he couldn't see the kids) and that he had to exercise his parenting time consistently in order for the 50/50 arrangement to stick. Otherwise, it would revert to weekend visits every other weekend and he'd be paying me child support and he wouldn't get a dime of alimony. It worked. We did this because he rarely saw the kids after he moved out and when he did see them, he would try to drop them off hours before the agreed upon time which I had in writing. I would be out running errands and get texts from him that he was at the house and asking where I was so he could drop them off. Then I'd have to reply that we agreed to "x" time and it's not that time yet. I made sure to arrive home pretty close to the agreed upon time. I made sure to stick to it too. He tends to bulldoze over my boundaries.

When she gets stuck in the details, do you think it'd help to validate her feelings and try to table it for later? Such as "I understand this is important to you. Let's finish discussing x and then we can discuss y." Or something along those lines?  I understand her concern about not being able to make enough money for certain things. She will probably need to readjust her expectations in regards to this. Yeah, not sure how well that will work with a BPD. When we were married, he spent the money I earned very quickly. I didn't get to spend much of it. He got used to a certain lifestyle. After the divorce, that lifestyle went away even though I'm paying him a good sized alimony. He's very materialistic and "wants it all" without having to earn it or work for it. He has entitlement issues. So your ex may feel entitled to certain things and may be in for a rude awakening when she doesn't get them.

There is nothing wrong with starting vague and working your way to the specifics on what is important to you. I think it's a great idea. It took me awhile to figure out what was important to me. For me, it was mostly that he sticks to his parenting time, that he provides for the kids during his time, and that I'm not the default parent. Meaning, if he has a conflict during his parenting time, he needs to figure it out. I am not expected to take the kids by default unless it's an emergency and we listed out constitutes an emergency. Otherwise, he wouldn't do his parenting time and I'd end up paying for everything for the kids while paying him alimony on top of it. I already pay for all of their daycare, medical, dental, and vision expenses. We had to be specific. He doesn't do well with vague. So you may have to get to specifics as much as you can or it'll be open to interpretation and cause more problems.

I think the 4-way meeting is a great idea.  I don't remember - does your attorney understand BPD? Mine did (as well as NPD) and it helped a lot.

[livednlearned]

She states that she wants to continue to be there for her family in her role and that I need to continue my role as the provider even if we are no longer together... .

It will be an adjustment. She's scared.

That's understandable.

Most reasonable offers are structured to provide minimum support over a longer period, or a larger amount for a short time. Perhaps one is more preferable to her, or to you.

Or is she saying she really wants the kids more but is afraid to push something less than 50/50 knowing that I have enough ammo to get it if this went before a judge?

You could end up with 50/50 on paper, with her giving you more unofficial time in practice. The relief she gets when the kids are with you may become something she regularly seeks out.

She says she doesn't want to pay the attorneys and that she just wants to work out some temp stipulations now and continue final settlement talks with them later.  Sounds like delay tactics but I do know my attorney has been slow to get financials over to her.

I would check with your L to see what legal disadvantage you put yourself at if you do anything before signing paperwork, especially if you moving out is part of that temp stipulation.

Temporary is a shoe-in for permanent in family court.

Temporary signals to a judge that you were able to tolerate something at one point, and should be able to get yourself there a second time. It reduces their workload if you and your spouse can come to agreement about something, even if you later disagree.

I_Am_The_Fire has great advice about helping dislodge her from details. She will be more prone to fixating on things a few inches off the ground, whereas you have a greater capacity to take the 30,000 foot view. Validating her will make it so she can relax enough to raise her head and look around. She might even trust what you are seeing from that elevation.

[ForeverDad]

She wants to stay in the house... .but can she afford to pay the bills?  While child support, if ordered, can be used for the child's housing, would she get enough CS to supplement her income so she can afford living there?  If not, then she needs to start looking for more affordable residence.  And the sooner the better.  (If it is clear the house will end up being sold, then best to get that done sooner than later.  Too often those financial issues are delayed to the latter part of the divorce.)

A theme I often repeat is that a specific house or apartment is not crucial for a parent or child to keep.  Home is not a specific building, it is where you live or where she lives.

Of course, what I wrote also depends on the laws in your state or area.  If you owned the home before marriage or the start of the relationship then many states will say it is still yours.  Who resides in the residence during the divorce process can depend on many factors.  Some states may consider a home to be part of community property.  Those are legal issues a local lawyer can provide you legal advice.

[ozmatoz]

Thank you for the replies everyone, its helping me stay grounded a bit during the chaos.

Yes I think she is scared of the changes.  She keeps trying to hide behind the kids as her reasoning.  "They" have to give up soo much.  "They" have to say goodbye to their rooms they picked out.  "They" have to say goodbye to pets (she refuses to take any).  "They" don't deserved to be uprooted from such a family neighborhood... .  you get the idea.

She is definitely stuck in the details.  She just received my financial disclosures which were filled out honestly and with backup.  I was immediately accused of lying, being shady, deceitful, financially controlling a-hole.  I then received her financials... .and wouldn't you believe it... .the shady, deceitful behavior is hers.  I suppose I'll chalk it up to projection.  I have copies of her pay stubs, work schedules etc... .My lawyer had to talk me off the edge of the cliff saying it only matters in the end if we can't get to something reasonable.

The mortgage, insurance and utilities would be about about triple what the child support would be.  She cannot afford that.  Not even close.  She would have to buy me out of my half the equity (approx $150k) and there is no way she could get a loan.  I couldn't afford to remortgage to buy her out and pay CS either.  The house must be sold.

What she doesn't realize is that after the house is sold and retirement accounts split, she'll have a ton of cash and zero debt.  At 39, good looks, employability... .she should absolutely be ok.

Our last 2 houses we bought while married, we are in an equitable distribution state so regardless of everything being in my name its all considered marital property.  She could say that she won't touch retirement accounts instead of buying out her equity but it goes back to the fact that there zero possibility for her to afford the house.

Now... .if it wasn't for CS I could swing everything and keep the house, but there is also zero chance of that happening in my state... .

Back to the original topic, she did calm down a bit, but talks have ceased.  Will now only do it through her attorney again and continues to state I need to step up and take care of her financially... .lord only knows what that means... .

To be continued... .
-Oz