I hired a divorce attorney

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello,
We've been married for 24 years and we have 5 children together. Recently she's been calling me narcissistic and during my online readearch, I came across BPD. I'm wide awake now.

We've been through several marriage counselors/pastor and nothing helped. The one that had the most promise recommend my W continue seeing the therapist so she could provide cognitive behavioral therapy. We stopped going. W claims that therapist was being biased and that she was wrong to make certain comments she made.

Over a year later, I had to talk to someone for my own sanity. So I went back to see the counselor which we spent the most time with. I updated her on the events that's occurred since our last visit. We discussed the major topics of conflicts in our marriage. I told her that I had been reading about BPD and how I thought W showed characteristics of this disorder. The T believes that my SO does. Not only that but she sees signs of Narcissism as well.

T advised me that I need to get out. To protect myself. She couldn't believe how I'd survive 24 years of this marriage. The T had lasted 11 years with her SO who also had BPD and it was pure hell. T told me about what treatments they offer and how difficult it was.

I broke down in her office. Thinking about all the suffering we've gone through. Especially... .especially our children that's witnessed so much of it.

I hired a divorce attorney the following day. I've been talking with my parents about the recent events and their support has been wonderful. I think they're saying,... .finally!. I've also been keeping my D23, no longer in the home, aware of my appointments and what I learned. I shared with her some links to help her understand what her mother might be going through. I made her aware about the attorney as well. She believes it's what needs to be done.

I also shared my recent discovery to my S18, at home. Telling him that the intent was to try and learn what I've,... .what we've been dealing with. He has had his own personal moments of high conflict with his mother as well. He also believes that my W and I need to separate but I haven't told him about hiring the attorney yet.

So how do I proceed? I saw my counselor last Wednesday and hired an attorney the following day. I'm starting to gather the paper work that he's requested. But how do I proceed with what to tell my D16, who's been playing the role of mediator for my W and me... .I tell her she shouldn't get involved but she can't help herself. She worries about us and especially mom who's made many threats about ending her life. We also have a D10 and a S6. What do I tell the younger ones?

How do I tell my W of my decision? When?

[ImWideAwakenow]

Hello,
We've been married for 24 years and we have 5 children together. Recently she's been calling me narcissistic and during my online readearch, I came across BPD. I'm wide awake now.

We've been through several marriage counselors/pastor and nothing helped. The one that had the most promise recommend my W continue seeing the therapist so she could provide cognitive behavioral therapy. We stopped going. W claims that therapist was being biased and that she was wrong to make certain comments she made.

Over a year later, I had to talk to someone for my own sanity. So I went back to see the counselor which we spent the most time with. I updated her on the events that's occurred since our last visit. We discussed the major topics of conflicts in our marriage. I told her that I had been reading about BPD and how I thought W showed characteristics of this disorder. The T believes that my SO does. Not only that but she sees signs of Narcissism as well.

T advised me that I need to get out. To protect myself. She couldn't believe how I'd survive 24 years of this marriage. The T had lasted 11 years with her SO who also had BPD and it was pure hell. T told me about what treatments they offer and how difficult it was.

I broke down in her office. Thinking about all the suffering we've gone through. Especially... .especially our children that's witnessed so much of it.

I hired a divorce attorney the following day. I've been talking with my parents about the recent events and their support has been wonderful. I think they're saying,... .finally!. I've also been keeping my D23, no longer in the home, aware of my appointments and what I learned. I shared with her some links to help her understand what her mother might be going through. I made her aware about the attorney as well. She believes it's what needs to be done.

I also shared my recent discovery to my S18, at home. Telling him that the intent was to try and learn what I've,... .what we've been dealing with. He has had his own personal moments of high conflict with his mother as well. He also believes that my W and I need to separate but I haven't told him about hiring the attorney yet.

So how do I proceed? I saw my counselor last Wednesday and hired an attorney the following day. I'm starting to gather the paper work that he's requested. But how do I proceed with what to tell my D16, who's been playing the role of mediator for my W and me... .I tell her she shouldn't get involved but she can't help herself. She worries about us and especially mom who's made many threats about ending her life. We also have a D10 and a S6. What do I tell the younger ones?

How do I tell my W of my decision? When?

[Panda39]

Hi Ramon,

Whew!  Lots going on and a lot happening fast.  Maybe slow down a little bit and get your ducks in a row before telling anyone else about your plans to divorce.  And once you do tell your wife do not share what you are doing, this can be hard but it is important that you keep your strategy to yourself.

You are getting information to your lawyer  
Do you own your home?
Do you plan to leave or ask your wife to leave the home?
Do you have retirement?
Do you have shared debt?
Do you have shared bank accounts?
Does your wife work?  Has she worked in the past?
Do you have any documentation regarding her behaviors? Police reports/emails/Hospitalizations?
Have your kids every received therapy?
Do you have copies of important documents (kept outside the home)... .home loans, auto insurance, medical insurance, retirement information, utilities, kids birth certificates/soc security cards... .basically any documents you might need information from if you leave.

There is a book you might want to get and read (not at home of course) called  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy that can be very helpful.

Is your Lawyer aware that you think your wife has BPD? What have they suggested in terms of strategy?  What would you like to see in terms of custody?

Okay, I've bombarded you with a million questions, I'll stop now  

I'm really glad you've jumped in there are many here that have been and are going through what you are. We don't give legal advice but what we can do is share ideas, our experiences and the things that worked for us, if we share something you believe would helpful in your case share it with your lawyer.

Take Care,
Panda39

[formflier]

How do I tell my W of my decision? When?

I'm so sorry you are apparently dealing with BPD, yet I'm glad you have found us.  We can help.  We are a safe place to discuss the very confusing things you are dealing with and the very hard decisions that you are going to make.

yes... .deciding to stay is a hard decision, just as deciding to leave. 

Figuring it all out is also a confusing time.

I'm wondering if it might be wise for you to privately explore things with the divorce attorney, privately explore things on bpdfamily and privately do some work with the T.

I think it's important that you gain knowledge to make this decision yourself, vice follow what a T has told you to do.

I'm not suggesting that T has advised you inappropriately, I AM suggesting that for life altering decisions such as this, YOU are the decider after YOU have carefully reflected on what all has happened, is happening and may happen in your life.

Perhaps some time on the "conflicted" board might help.

Thoughts?

FF

[ImWideAwakenow]

I appreciate the welcome.

Panda, I'll look into getting that book.
There is a lot going on.
My attorney and I discussed what the rules are in my state for dissolution of marriage. But the details are yet to come.
Many of us have been on the verge of calling the authorities but have never gone through with it. I couldn't do it myself. All the thoughts that cross my mind as I hold the phone trying to get my fingers to dial those numbers. How will this affect her? The kids? Her job? Everything. I couldn't do it. I'm sure my S18 and D16 probably had the same experience.

Many years ago they showed up. No charges were filed. She left with the kids before they got here. And I told them I got angry with my wife destroying things in the house and it triggered me to doing the same. After they were confident that no one was injured, they left after telling me there was no law against destroying my things. The neighbors called them.

W's mom has not pulled the trigger either. She's only gone as far telling me we need to do something... ."she needs to be Baker acted!"

As far as discussing her condition with the attorney, he said that if I want to go the route of making the courts aware, we would need to hire a court appointed professional to diagnose her. I have many thoughts and questions about this.

Right now, I've been making a list of events that I believe would corroborate why I think she might suffer from BPD. Going through thousands of text messages.

Is an LCSW qualified to provide a diagnosis? Can I say at this point that she has been diagnosed?

FF, I appreciate the welcome. Not so proud to have landed in this family but grateful that I have found it. I have read as much as I could when I can find the time. Bouncing back and forth from page to page. Especially learning the abbreviations so things make some sense.

I have a lot to read. That's ok. It helps distract my own thoughts and keeps me on tract of what I think I need to do... .right? Yes, it's all very confusing. I'm afraid for many reasons. So many scenarios. What if... .

Time to turn to the "conflicted" board page.

R

[Turkish]

The courts won't care about a diagnosis. Focus upon the behaviors and document everything that you can.  That will be applicable in court. 

[Panda39]

The courts won't care about a diagnosis. Focus upon the behaviors and document everything that you can.  That will be applicable in court. 

Turkish is right, I asked the question wondering if your lawyer was familiar with what he might be up against not that you run into court crying BPD! (even though it might feel good to do so) The best thing you can do is drop the label and document her behaviors.

For example my significant other's (SO's) undiagnosed BPD ex-wife I (uBPDxw) had primary custody initially during their separation (my SO saw the girls every other weekend and Wednesday evenings).  At one point their younger daughter had a toothache.  The ex was slow to set up an appointment with the dentist, then cancelled and rescheduled and cancelled again and then decided she wanted to go to another dentist and set up an appointment with them and cancelled and this stuff went on for 3 months, meanwhile their daughter had been in pain for 3 months.    My SO had emails documenting his concerns and following up and offering to take her etc.  Finally he just didn't ask found a dentist open weekends and took his daughter. There were similar issues around medical care that he was able to document as well.  By presenting his documentation he was able to show mom's behavior was not in the best interest of the kids (she was neglectful)... .when the divorce was final he was awarded Medical and Dental decision making.  Why because he was able to show a pattern of behavior. He didn't even know about BPD back then, it was never mentioned.

It is patterns of behaviors that negatively impact your kids that you want to document and present to the court.

Panda39

[david]

Backing up what everyone else said. Behaviors are all that matter to the courts.
If she does have a diagnosis the only thing the courts would listen to is if she is not following her doctors orders. Therapy, medications, etc. Getting the documentation for those things will probably be very difficult because of privacy laws.
I was able to get more time because I could show ex was not helping our boys with their school work. I copied every homework for a few months and then filed. Ex legally delayed going to court so it took another school year to get there. However, she never changed her behavior during that time. I had a pile of homework that was 6 to 8 inches tall for evidence in court. I made one sheet that included everything from the pile below in an easy to read format.
Family court prefers both parties to agree to something and they will simply sign off on it. The next best thing is for one of the parties to have a plan that spells things out, is not viewed as a winner take all, and addresses the best interests of the kids. In that situation a judge will probably not give you everything you ask for so it will look like only one party wins. However, my request in court during the homework petition gave me exactly what I was asking the courts for. Ex had nothing to offer and the judge simply copied my request exactly. In order to look  fair, he did yell at me for 10 minutes or so. It happened a few times before that too and I realized that was their way of having not just one winner. 

[ImWideAwakenow]

Interesting. So the patterns that she displayed to make my own personal life hell doesn't matter to the courts? Only the patterns that affect the children?

Does having them exposed to the violence matter? The abuse such as name calling, degrading, getting in my face, the hiding my keys, taking my phone, the blocking my path so that I can't leave, the grabbing me and hitting me, the chasing me with her own vehicle... .none of that matters?

The stress, anxiety, and fear when their mother makes threats that she will end her life as she throws her tantrum? That they then need to feel like they have to keep an eye on her?

So save the money then when my attorney advised that we can get her diagnosed?

Sorry to ask again, but does an LCSW have it in her capacity to make a diagnosis?

[Panda39]

Does having them exposed to the violence matter? The abuse such as name calling, degrading, getting in my face, the hiding my keys, taking my phone, the blocking my path so that I can't leave, the grabbing me and hitting me, the chasing me with her own vehicle... .none of that matters?

The stress, anxiety, and fear when their mother makes threats that she will end her life as she throws her tantrum? That they then need to feel like they have to keep an eye on her?

Yes the above all matters in terms of how it has psychologically effected your children that is where your focus needs to be.  Not so much how it has effected you... .you are an adult and have choices in these situations, and you are leaving the marriage as a result of these behaviors.  Your minor children don't have the same choices you do as an adult.

Are any of your kids in therapy?  They have seen alot and seem to be engaging in some behaviors that aren't healthy for them.

Just by Googling if a LCSW can diagnose seems to be it depends on if they meet certain qualifications.

So save the money then when my attorney advised that we can get her diagnosed?

Not necessarily, if your attorney has a strategy around getting a diagnosis and using it in your situation then this could be a way to go.  I guess what we are saying is that even without a diagnosis with the right documentation of behaviors you can approach this without a diagnosis.  It is worth discussing your attorney's strategy with him/her around why they think getting a diagnosis is important in your case.

Panda39 

[formflier]

A place where an official diagnosis can help, such as BPD, is that it then "officially" raises the question of "ok... you have (fill in the blank) so what are you doing about it".

If you have something and aren't doing anything about it, the courts can have a dim view of it.

If that is the extent of things, it likely won't be worth the money.

However, if you can diagnosis (fill in the blank) AND show nothing is being done about it AND show that "typical (fill in the blank behaviors) are impacting the kids negatively)... .then you have something the courts care about.

If you can get something in a temp order that says wife must attend and comply with therapist for (xx condition) and then she DOES NOT comply, that is a whole different ballgame, because now the court order is being ignored.  If that becomes a pattern, it won't go well for your stbex.

I say all this to clarify:  it's about the behavior.  It's likely much easier to document that.  The other stuff can be important, but not nearly as much as behavior that impacts the children.

FF

[livednlearned]

A diagnosis is just shorthand for a lot of behaviors.

It can be much easier to just document the behaviors. That way, you don't come across as someone who is intolerant of mental illness. You also don't want to come across as an aggrieved adult who needs a judge to solve your problems.

When your wife gets angry, how do you currently handle things?

Your attorney may want you to think about the worst things your wife will allege. And if there is any documentation to back it up.

About the kids, my experience with young adults is that they don't want to be triangulated into the spousal conflict. It may be validating to discover a parent is BPD, but most likely they will need to work through this with a skilled therapist. A more healing approach is to ask them if they have any questions for you, and if you have the means, offer to help them pay for a therapist. Having a front-row seat to your spousal conflict will likely affect their future relationships in ways that can take years to untangle, and a good therapist will know how to guide them. We are usually too invested and too partial, with blinders of our own.

Suicidal ideation is also worrying -- it might be wise to put together a safety plan and think ahead what you will do and say if this happens. What have you done in the past?

What has occurred before to make her mom suggest she gets Baker acted?

It's ok to slow down right now and get a good plan together. Read Splitting and post lots of questions here. There is a lot of collective wisdom from people who have been in your shoes.

Having a solid plan in place can save you money and help you avoid a different kind of court-induced suffering.

Courts can escalate conflict. It takes some special ju-jitsu to get the courts to see who is the normal-range parent when you are divorcing a high-conflict person.

[ForeverDad]

Interesting. So the patterns that she displayed to make my own personal life hell doesn't matter to the courts?

The court won't stop you from getting divorced, it's there to unwind the marriage in a somewhat orderly fashion.  You're an adult, the court won't put much energy into how you were treated unless your state has exceptions to the usual No Fault aspects of divorce.

Only the patterns that affect the children?  Does having them exposed to the violence matter? The abuse such as name calling, degrading, getting in my face, the hiding my keys, taking my phone, the blocking my path so that I can't leave, the grabbing me and hitting me, the chasing me with her own vehicle... .none of that matters?

I called CPS twice in the months before my separation and divorce.  Here's what happened.  Evidently there is a bar set that must be breached for the verbal abuse to become 'actionable'.

I recall when I called CPS - twice - in the months before my separation and divorce that both staff members asked me, "Is she directing her screaming at you or at the child?"  I had to admit that I was the primary 'target'.  I was told, "In that case, call back if she starts screaming at your child."  Apparently children being exposed to verbal abuse was not actionable in my area, but being the target of verbal abuse might be.   I recall one of them also told me to do what her mother had done, separate and divorce.

The stress, anxiety, and fear when their mother makes threats that she will end her life as she throws her tantrum? That they then need to feel like they have to keep an eye on her?

Suicide threats... .there is a difference between real suicidal thoughts (acting in) and threats to control or manipulate others (acting out).  In either case you the parent are not expected or considered to be the one trained and informed enough to decide which it is.  Call for help.  Leave it to to the emergency responders and responsible evaluators to assess.  However, a warning here.  Very likely once the professionals arrive your spouse will deny and claim you're lying.  Denial and Blame Shifting are typical reactions.  Partly self-interest and partly denial of the facts.  So if you do report suicidal comments, be sure you also have documentation of what she said, either witnesses (avoid putting the children in the middle) or recordings.  Otherwise they'll walk away saying she claims to be okay.

If the children are in counseling, a good thing for them and something court views favorably, over time they may open up to the counselor and describesome of the poor behaviors of their dysfunctional parent.