Big mistake

[Veryconfuseduk32]

As I mentioned on my last thread, I have recently started talking to my ex who I work with again and we had been very flirty with each other. We started talking in March and she split with her boyfriend not long after we started talking to each other. Nothing physical had happened, although it nearly did when we went out over a week ago.

Over the weekend we had been texting and she had suggested us meeting up on Sunday. I had thought this was a bad idea but after she suggested it more than once I decided "why not?" We met up and went for a bit of a walk and long story short she ended up back at mine.

I had set out for nothing physical to happen between us because I do feel as though she is capable of causing me a lot of trouble. Right now I feel OK about everything but she is already showing signs of going back to how she was when we were together. She's already started calling and texting non stop and she already made a comment, kind of as a joke but not really appropriate considering the situation, about how she loves me.

The other weird thing she said is "don't tell anyone at work about this." Which I was never going to do anyway - and never did first time around... .although she had already told her friend from work that she was at mine (and said she tells her "everything" so would probably tell her about it). AND everyone already thinks something is going on anyway, especially after the way we were on a night out last week.

I'm trying to keep a bit of distance between us because I don't want to get too involved with her again... .although I think I've already probably taken things too far! I just hope I can get out without her deciding she wants to ruin my life!

[heartandwhole]

Hi Veryconfused,
 
Were you thinking that you could be friends or date casually, or something like that?

Do you think she wants to get closer? If so, how are you going to handle it?

heartandwhole

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Hi Veryconfused,
 
Were you thinking that you could be friends or date casually, or something like that?

Do you think she wants to get closer? If so, how are you going to handle it?

heartandwhole

I was thinking we could be friends and, although there was flirting, I didn't think we'd end up taking it to a physical level again. She told me she really cares about me but she hasn't indicated that she wants anything more than sex and a friendship.

Only issue I have is that this is all she said she wanted last time as well... .and we ended up having a 6 month relationship which ended badly.

Unfortunately I don't really know what I want... .because if I did this would be so much easier!

[formflier]

Unfortunately I don't really know what I want... .because if I did this would be so much easier!

As a very general statement... .unless one or both of you make changes in the way you "do" your relationship, it is very likely that your r/s will end up the way it did last time (broadly speaking).

So... .is it ok for that previous relationship pattern to play out again?

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

As a very general statement... .unless one or both of you make changes in the way you "do" your relationship, it is very likely that your r/s will end up the way it did last time (broadly speaking).

So... .is it ok for that previous relationship pattern to play out again?

FF

I am staying a bit more detached this time because I don't think I want to move back into a full-on relationship as I think the age difference is too much of an issue (I'm 33, she's 20) and I really can't handle her drama. Neither of us have said we want anything more than something casual but I am sure it will go back that way.

One thing that has annoyed me a little is that she told me not to tell anyone at work what happened. Which was the right thing as far as I was concerned - I don't want to tell anyone what happened as that's between me and her. But she has already told the 3 people that she sits next to at work which is going against what we said. I wouldn't be so bothered about her saying anything if she hadn't already made it clear she didn't want anyone to know.

[MyBPD_friend]

Hello Veryconfuseduk32 , nice to meet you here.

I think you're walking on very thin ice... .

This could be very dangerous for you, but if you want that to happen be aware of the  consequences.
From my experience, it's not possible to be in a 'close' friendship with a BPD woman (or man).

Good luck, hope you won't have the big drama with her.

[formflier]

So... how far do you want to go with this relationship?


How will this relationship improve your life? 

Could the time you have/will spend on this relationship be "spent" in other ways?

Would those "other ways" improve or degrade your quality of life.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Interesting the title you chose for your thread.

Having had two BPD spouses, I'll pitch in my two cents. Yes, there's something really compelling about BPD individuals. They can seem so incredibly vulnerable and sexy and relationships with them can feel so overwhelming and exciting... .at the beginning. Then all hell breaks loose and soon we're dealing with unpredictable anger and weird behavior.

So often we think we can have the "nice" version of them and with love and tolerance, we can coax the "bad" version back into its cave.

Ain't gonna happen. It's a package deal. You've got to live with both sides. It's true if they're not too extreme, you can "manage" the "bad" side and make lemonade out of lemons. But it takes a lot of work on oneself. We have to learn new strategies for dealing with them because the toolkit we know that works with emotionally healthy people just won't work with someone with BPD.

The big question to ask yourself is knowing what you know, why would you voluntarily choose this again?

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Hello Veryconfuseduk32 , nice to meet you here.

I think you're walking on very thin ice... .

This could be very dangerous for you, but if you want that to happen be aware of the  consequences.
From my experience, it's not possible to be in a 'close' friendship with a BPD woman (or man).

Good luck, hope you won't have the big drama with her.

Nice to meet you as well! That is where I worry about it. I hope that it is possible to have a close friendship with her, but it's already gone further than I wanted it to. And I feel as though she is trying to start a bit of drama by telling people what happened after telling me she didn't want anyone to know. I know she's still causing a lot of drama with her ex-boyfriend who she got together with after me and I certainly don't want to get caught up on that.

So... how far do you want to go with this relationship?


How will this relationship improve your life?  

Could the time you have/will spend on this relationship be "spent" in other ways?

Would those "other ways" improve or degrade your quality of life.

FF

There's the problem, I don't know!

Personally, I like the flirting and joking about at work. That's the main thing I enjoy about our friendship and I would prefer it to stay there. Although I do enjoy seeing her outside of work and what happened yesterday was fun. I just don't know whether how fun that was is worth the trouble she could cause.

I suppose what I want is too selfish from my side, but I played along with what she wanted last time and did end up very hurt. As what happened yesterday happened without any expectation of anything more happening between us I'm treating the situation as that we are still just friends. I just don't want to end up hurt and I don't want to be the focus of her next big drama.

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Interesting the title you chose for your thread.

Having had two BPD spouses, I'll pitch in my two cents. Yes, there's something really compelling about BPD individuals. They can seem so incredibly vulnerable and sexy and relationships with them can feel so overwhelming and exciting... .at the beginning. Then all hell breaks loose and soon we're dealing with unpredictable anger and weird behavior.

So often we think we can have the "nice" version of them and with love and tolerance, we can coax the "bad" version back into its cave.

Ain't gonna happen. It's a package deal. You've got to live with both sides. It's true if they're not too extreme, you can "manage" the "bad" side and make lemonade out of lemons. But it takes a lot of work on oneself. We have to learn new strategies for dealing with them because the toolkit we know that works with emotionally healthy people just won't work with someone with BPD.

The big question to ask yourself is knowing what you know, why would you voluntarily choose this again?

Thank you for your reply!

I think the reason for the title is because this is exactly the way our first relationship started. We flirted and chatted a lot at work, met up, had sex and then we spent almost every day together until we split up. I really don't want to be dragged back into that situation again and I'm concerned that escalating the relationship to a physical level is a big mistake as it may push her to think that we're going back to that again. Hopefully I'm wrong!

I think your analysis about what is attractive about it is absolutely right and I think that's what's drawing me in again. I really do like spending time with her when I'm at work and when it's just fun and light. But then I think about all of the times she told me she was going to kill herself because of what I did, started arguments for no reason and then tried to convince me I was going crazy when she cheated on me.

I know that she is both of those people, not just one of them and that I need to accept that. And I can't accept that person being a serious romantic partner, but I can accept her being a friend as long as I can keep her at a distance. Whether that is possible, I really don't know.

[formflier]

Why not ask her to go grab a cup of coffee with you after work. 

Ask her directly what she wants.

Have a talk to define the limits of the relationship... .or at least understand them better.

Being proactive about these things is normally good.

And... .if she tells you one thing and does another (as it appears she has done several times already), doesn't that influence you one way or another about the future of the relationship?

In other words... .she says she wants to be friends... .and a couple days later pressures you for sex and emotional attachment... .then acts like it never happens... .then says don't tell anyone... then she tells anyone... .then you mention it to one person... .she finds out and "paints you black" because you can't be trusted... .(should I go on?)

If you don't know what you want... perhaps you can figure out what you don't want.  Go from there.  Many times that is more important than what you do want.

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Why not ask her to go grab a cup of coffee with you after work. 

Ask her directly what she wants.

Have a talk to define the limits of the relationship... .or at least understand them better.

Being proactive about these things is normally good.

And... .if she tells you one thing and does another (as it appears she has done several times already), doesn't that influence you one way or another about the future of the relationship?

In other words... .she says she wants to be friends... .and a couple days later pressures you for sex and emotional attachment... .then acts like it never happens... .then says don't tell anyone... then she tells anyone... .then you mention it to one person... .she finds out and "paints you black" because you can't be trusted... .(should I go on?)

If you don't know what you want... perhaps you can figure out what you don't want.  Go from there.  Many times that is more important than what you do want.

FF

I'm not sure I want that conversation though. I'm happy with how things are right now and if that is how it is going to stay - that's fine. My only concern is it not staying this way.

I think you're right on the way she's acting but I don't think it's all one sided and, to be fair, I don't know what I want so I know I have probably blown hot and cold towards her as well. I have no interest in telling anyone what happened between us (apart from on here or to very close friends she doesn't know) I am only annoyed that she has told people because she made it very clear she wanted to keep it between us. And she has never acted like what happened yesterday never happened. But I know I can't trust her with anything and I have known for a long time that is the case.

What I don't want is to have another serious relationship with her. Even without the BPD traits (and she has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, although I don't know for certain which it is - and she has refused to ever undergo treatment) I think the age difference and history between us would make it impossible for that to work. And that really is all that I know!

[Cat Familiar]

Being "f*ck buddies" even with an emotionally healthy partner always seems to come with strings, no matter how "casual" the agreement is.

With a BPD partner, the strings come with steroids.

Be careful.    

[formflier]

I'm not sure I want that conversation though. 

   

Why not?

Help me understand why you would NOT want to have a conversation with a person about your relationship,  especially because there have been hurt feelings before, there has been sex before, there almost was sex again... (I could go on)

Or... .perhaps you break everything off until you know what you want?... .or are ready for a conversation about the r/s.

I'm curious about your reluctance... .

Standing by.

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Being "f*ck buddies" even with an emotionally healthy partner always seems to come with strings, no matter how "casual" the agreement is.

With a BPD partner, the strings come with steroids.

Be careful.    

That is true. I don't think there's any way that could work without causing me a lot of trouble! The trouble is that our friendship has always been based around us being attracted to each other and there has always been a lot of flirting. I'm not sure we could ever remain friends for that long without something more happening.

[Veryconfuseduk32]

 

Why not?

Help me understand why you would NOT want to have a conversation with a person about your relationship,  especially because there have been hurt feelings before, there has been sex before, there almost was sex again... (I could go on)

Or... .perhaps you break everything off until you know what you want?... .or are ready for a conversation about the r/s.

I'm curious about your reluctance... .

Standing by.

FF

Because I don't think her reaction would be a very positive one to it and I don't think it would do either of us any good. She would likely see it as me pressuring her into making a decision on what "we" are. And, from my perspective, I don't think there is anything positive to gain from us having that conversation when keeping things light and fun as they are at the moment is fine. The "problem" hasn't happened yet - and may not happen - so while that's the case, I don't think a conversation is required.

And, on a more negative point, I don't believe that I would trust anything she says!

[formflier]

Because I don't think her reaction would be a very positive one to it and I don't think it would do either of us any good. She would likely see it as me pressuring her into making a decision on what "we" are. And, from my perspective, I don't think there is anything positive to gain from us having that conversation when keeping things light and fun as they are at the moment is fine. The "problem" hasn't happened yet - and may not happen - so while that's the case, I don't think a conversation is required.

And, on a more negative point, I don't believe that I would trust anything she says!

So... .the purpose of having a relationship with a person where the above applies... .is?

How is this going to improve your life?

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

So... .the purpose of having a relationship with a person where the above applies... .is?

How is this going to improve your life?

FF

I do like her as a person - she is fun to be around, she is nice to talk to and I enjoy spending time with her at work. I do enjoy talking to her outside of work sometimes although I wouldn't want to get too close to her again as I don't want to end up in the position we were previously.

When I say I wouldn't trust anything she says, I don't mean that in a nasty way but she could mean she just wants to be friends one minute and the next want to jump into bed with me. She could say she wants to be in a relationship one minute and the next want to run off with someone else. I don't think a conversation with someone where that applies to is really going to help. I think it is best to keep things light at the present moment as how it is now is fine - if it ends up being a problem for me or for her then we can talk about it.

In terms of how it will improve my life - I enjoy us spending time together at work. I like that and I don't want that to change. It is us spending time together outside of work where I have a problem.

[formflier]

Good... .so... .go have "fun" with her.  As long as it's "fun"... .you are good... right?

If there is a worry about time outside of work... .why not just skip it?

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Good... .so... .go have "fun" with her.  As long as it's "fun"... .you are good... right?

If there is a worry about time outside of work... .why not just skip it?

FF

It's hard to do that. For example, she rang me 6 times last night after we finished work and is likely to do the same tonight. It's very difficult to keep her at the distance I want. It seems to be either we see each other/talk all the time or we don't see each other/talk at all!

I think I'm playing with fire here and I'm sure I'm about to get burned soon enough.

[formflier]

I think I'm playing with fire here and I'm sure I'm about to get burned soon enough.

So... .why play with fire anymore?

I mean... .you know what happens... right?

Listen... .I think you should read this article.  Then reflect some on how this article can simplify the calling issue.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Please share your impressions on the article.

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

So... .why play with fire anymore?

I mean... .you know what happens... right?

Listen... .I think you should read this article.  Then reflect some on how this article can simplify the calling issue.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Please share your impressions on the article.

FF

I find that an interesting article and that does make sense. I will try to implement boundaries with the phone calls - I think she enjoys trying to drag out the phone calls as much as possible and when we were together me ending the calls made up a lot of the arguments we had.

I am certainly not going to allow her to kick off and start arguments over the phone calls again - and at the moment she is on her best behaviour and doesn't want to start arguments over this, although I know that will change if we get any closer. And I am certainly not going to get caught up in her threatening suicide or anything like that over things like this again. I suppose now is the best time to put down boundaries like this if I am going to keep this friendship going.

I suppose I don't really want to fully back away from her but I do want to make sure I stay as detached from anything more than a friendship as possible whilst being respectful of her feelings and her as a person. I don't want to hurt her but I know that a serious relationship of any kind is impossible with her because I cannot put myself in the position of having to deal with her issues. I know I can't fix them and I know I can't allow my life to be taken over dealing with them - so I'd like to keep things as close to how they are now for as long as possible. I do like her as she is at the moment... .but I'm not willing to put myself through dealing with the other side of her again.

[Red5]

I am staying a bit more detached this time because I don't think I want to move back into a full-on relationship as I think the age difference is too much of an issue (I'm 33, she's 20) and I really can't handle her drama.

Morning Veryconfuseduk32,

"She is twenty... .I'm (you) are thirty-three"... .

My two (2) cents here,

She is not even old enough to buy a rum and coke, at least here in the "colonies" ... .so that said, and considering her age, what you see is what you're gonna get, she is not of a mature age yet imho,

You on the other hand, being thirty-three; are practically "over the hill"... .ha ha ha;... .just kidding!

She is a "pretty young thing", she has a couple of gondola's of "wild oats" still yet to sow, EVEN if you were married (), I'd be afraid of her letting ole' Jody boy in through the back door when you went off to work.

Look at the history, .I'd stay to play only, and I'd keep my little plastic heart under lock and key !

How does the saying go, "swim at you're own risk"... ."don't feed the alligators"... ."NOT responsible for broken hearts"... ."No life guard on duty"... .

Your cleared hot to "test drive"... .but remember, she did not keep up the payments last time you co-signed & went for a drive with her ?

... .have fun, live life, .but read the insert !

Best Regards, Red5

[MyBPD_friend]

I think I'm playing with fire here and I'm sure I'm about to get burned soon enough.

Some boys (10) played with fire in reality when I was 10 as well. There was an explosion and a big fire - I got burned third degree in my face - they didn't.

What I want to say, I got scars, inside and visible outside.
A BPD woman will also leave scars, they won't really disappear as long as you live, they only get better and less painful by time.

Think about the fire again, getting burned is fast, healing takes a lifetime.

[Cat Familiar]

Regarding "playing with fire," I would wager that there are a number of men here on this site who thought they could "get away with it."

Then, in a weak moment, something happened. Maybe unprotected sex, maybe "pinholes" in the condom, and oops, boom=relationship, marriage, family.

It's a question of choosing short term satisfactions or having long term goals.

My questions to anyone who wants to "play with fire" are: 1. Do you deserve better?  2. What is so compelling about this person that would drive you to possibly violate your own standards?  3. What in your family of origin might predispose you to choosing a partner who you think is inappropriate for you?

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Thanks for your responses guys.

In terms of her age, I know, and that is why I don't want to move into anything serious. I made that mistake last time and I wouldn't want to do that again. While she appears as though she really wants a serious relationship (she has been living with the boyfriend after me since September/October time) I don't think it is even close to what she really wants. I think she really wants deep down to be single and have fun - at least judging by her actions anyway!

I agree that I don't want to get hurt again and probably shouldn't put myself in that position. I'm trying to keep myself detatched as much as I can do from an emotional standpoint. I don't feel too hurt from the previous relationship - I felt as though I healed from that fairly quickly once I understood how she had acted during our relationship. I go into it this time knowing how she does act in relationships and will not risk getting hurt by her again.

And you're probably right Cat - and I do not want to risk ending up in that position. She always tells me she doesn't like using condoms and I was stupid enough to agree to that last time (so lucky to get out without an STD or a pregnancy!) but I wouldn't again this time. I'm keeping condoms on me in case it does happen again - and if she doesn't want me to use them, we don't have sex (as difficult as that may be)!

In terms of the questions - 1) for a relationship, yes. I want to be with someone who is emotionally stable and someone who will be faithful. I don't think she is/can be either. So I don't want anything serious with her.

2) Honestly, her looks, her personality when she is in a good state and the sex. I think that's probably the same for anyone who has been involved with someone with BPD.

3) I think, honestly, it wasn't anything to do with my family of origin - I think in some ways it was to do with a lot of quite extreme bullying at school which led to me in relationships - both platonic and romantic - until I was 17/18. My first long term serious relationship was with a woman who displayed a lot of BPD traits and ended up pregnant when we had been together 3/4 months. I think I put up from that from the kind of adoration in the idealisation phase that I think I needed after a long time of being put down at school. While that bullying has left few scars on my day-to-day life, I think it has left me open to looking for someone to validate me in a romantic sense which leaves me susceptible to that kind of love bombing. That was a very, very turbulent relationship with huge highs and even worse lows which are still about today in dealing with her with my child and - I suppose - in some ways, the kind of drama I find in relationships with someone with BPD is a bit of a distraction from what I put up with, with her. She has never been diagnosed with anything other than depression but she displays a lot of the same kind of traits to the point where one of my friends have compared my friend to a younger version of my childs mum. I suppose, also, due to the bullying at school I do find it hard to allow myself to be vulnerable to someone and, with someone with BPD, the feeling of being "the strong one" in the relationship means that I don't have to allow myself to feel vulnerable... until, I suppose, it comes to an end.

[formflier]

So... .this is me "reflecting back" what I have heard... .read... .and want to make sure I have the story correct.

You were involved with a "BPDish" girl for your first big relationship.  She ended up pregnant and now you share a child together. 

Did birth control fail or did she talk you into unprotected sex?


Few more things below... let's stick with the "playing with fire" analogy.

I agree that I don't want to get hurt again and probably shouldn't put myself in that position.

So... you probably shouldn't play with fire again... .but... .?   

It appears you know the answer... yet... ?

I'm trying to keep myself detatched as much as I can do from an emotional standpoint.

If you understand that you want to be "detached"... .especially from an emotional standpoint... .then why have a relationship at all?  Isn't not having a relationship "really detached"?

So... .what is the "point" of having a relationship, without emotions involved?

I don't feel too hurt from the previous relationship - I felt as though I healed from that fairly quickly once I understood how she had acted during our relationship.

Oh... I played with fire and got burned... .but it wasn't too bad and my wounds healed... .especially once I understand how matches work. 

So... .since i didn't get burned to bad before... .I will ?

I'll stop for now and make sure I'm not misunderstanding part of this.  Once we clarify my understanding... .I'll likely have a few more thoughts.


FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

Did birth control fail or did she talk you into unprotected sex?

She was on the contraceptive pill and it didn't work.

So... .what is the "point" of having a relationship, without emotions involved?

Well there's going to always be some emotions involved but I want to keep it as casual as possible. I do enjoy spending time with her when she is in a good mood, I just want to keep detached enough to not have to endure the bad side of her.

Oh... I played with fire and got burned... .but it wasn't too bad and my wounds healed... .especially once I understand how matches work. 

So... .since i didn't get burned to bad before... .I will ?

I see the point you are making and the reason I am conflicted is that I know it could be a lot worse this time. It's not easy to just walk away from the situation when I do want to spend time with her. Especially at the minute when I'm only getting the good side of her.

[formflier]

She was on the contraceptive pill and it didn't work.

I don't want to belabor an old relationship too much... .but... .do you believe her?  Is it possible that she faithfully took the pills and they failed... .yes... that is possible.

Taking you at your word that she is/was "BPDish" and that for many BPDish people feelings create facts and manytimes "ends justify the means" (or it appears that way... .)

It is "more than possible" that there was an oops.  Perhaps it wasn't intentional, like she "plotted" to get you two pregnant, perhaps she did... perhaps she was careless and forgot to inform you of the risk. 

Anyway... .given this experience , I would like to understand your choice to have apparently unprotected sex with another BPDish gal.  What are your thoughts on that?

but I want to keep it as casual as possible. 

 
Perhaps it's an unintentional way that you write or communicate. 

But if someone wants to be "as detached as possible"... .then... .ending the relationship is "as detached as possible".  As casual as possible would indicate to me that you are polite when you see her... .but otherwise ignore her.

I don't think that's actually what you mean... .and it's obvious that is not what you want.

I see the point you are making and the reason I am conflicted is that I know it could be a lot worse this time. 

And... your analysis is accurate... .yet you still seem ready for another "recycle" (the terminology we use for what you appear to be doing).

Listen... .nobody on bpdfamily is going to tell you to get back with her... or tell you to "run".  Our terms of service preclude that.

If you want to give it another shot... .go for it. 

If you don't... .don't... .it's up to you to sort out your feelings of obligation  to be nice to her... .and get over that.

What it appears to me you want... .is the fun side... without the dark side.  It doesn't work that way... at least I'm not aware of any cases where it does.

"Radical acceptance" is a concept many of us wrestle with.  Basically... .really understand this is who she is... the way she is.

FF

[Veryconfuseduk32]

It is "more than possible" that there was an oops.  Perhaps it wasn't intentional, like she "plotted" to get you two pregnant, perhaps she did... perhaps she was careless and forgot to inform you of the risk.

What she said is she threw up and the pill doesn't work when you throw up. Which I was unaware of but she was fully aware of... .so, yes, kind of what you said.

Anyway... .given this experience , I would like to understand your choice to have apparently unprotected sex with another BPDish gal.  What are your thoughts on that?

I didn't know what BPD even was until after the second relationship ended. Without going into detail, I was doing as much as possible to ensure that there was no pregnancy... .but, yes, I think it's not the best decision I could have ever made.

I don't think that's actually what you mean... .and it's obvious that is not what you want.

What I mean, is to keep the friendship and to perhaps have a sexual relationship but nothing serious and without any expectations that it could ever go anywhere.

"Radical acceptance" is a concept many of us wrestle with.  Basically... .really understand this is who she is... the way she is.

I accept who she is and I know that is not going to change. That is why I am leaning towards the decision of enjoying what we have while it is fun but being prepared to walk away to an extent if the dark side comes out. I don't want to spend my life with someone like that but I do value the friendship we have.